Joe Brolly

Started by randomtask, July 31, 2011, 05:28:31 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

AZOffaly

D'Oh. Matt Gallagher of course.

Zulu

Pretty weak article from Heaney and a weaker defence of it on Newstalk when only up against Parkinson. He makes the bizarre claim that the peasants want Dublin and Kerry to win All Irelands rather than other peasant counties. I don't recall anyone criticising Down when they won their second All Ireland and if anything Tyrone's popularity grew as they won more All Irelands. Clare hurlers lost a lot of public affection not because we wanted Kilkenny back winning All Irelands but because many people got tired of some elements of the Clare set up.

The crux of his point seems to be that we should leave the Ulster teams alone as others also defend in numbers, even Dublin. And while there is an element of truth in that (which is the problem as it seems to be spreading), it is mainly Ulster teams that use it as their standard tactic. Donegal would play like that against Waterford, as would Cavan or Monaghan. Derry are getting an unfair press in my mind as I don't think they usually play as they did against Dublin but there is no doubt the mass defence is an Ulstercentric tactic and that is why they get the brunt of the criticism but it is now a tool most counties have in their bag and if they feel they'll come up against a team that will use it too we'll get a terrible game which is the problem and the only worthwhile point at this stage.

INDIANA

#1112
Quote from: Zulu on April 10, 2015, 02:39:18 PM
Pretty weak article from Heaney and a weaker defence of it on Newstalk when only up against Parkinson. He makes the bizarre claim that the peasants want Dublin and Kerry to win All Irelands rather than other peasant counties. I don't recall anyone criticising Down when they won their second All Ireland and if anything Tyrone's popularity grew as they won more All Irelands. Clare hurlers lost a lot of public affection not because we wanted Kilkenny back winning All Irelands but because many people got tired of some elements of the Clare set up.

The crux of his point seems to be that we should leave the Ulster teams alone as others also defend in numbers, even Dublin. And while there is an element of truth in that (which is the problem as it seems to be spreading), it is mainly Ulster teams that use it as their standard tactic. Donegal would play like that against Waterford, as would Cavan or Monaghan. Derry are getting an unfair press in my mind as I don't think they usually play as they did against Dublin but there is no doubt the mass defence is an Ulstercentric tactic and that is why they get the brunt of the criticism but it is now a tool most counties have in their bag and if they feel they'll come up against a team that will use it too we'll get a terrible game which is the problem and the only worthwhile point at this stage.

The gas thing as well despite Ulster gaa players being taught from the cradle how to play the concrete defence as I call it very few of them can pull it off . Invariably they still can't get results with it even playing other counties outside Dublin and Kerry but it's so ingrained in the players and coaches up there they can't leave it behind

Heaney long stopped being relevant as his northern bias became more obvious with each article. His articles should require a disclaimer pointing to such at the bottom

sheamy

Quote from: Zulu on April 10, 2015, 02:39:18 PM
Pretty weak article from Heaney and a weaker defence of it on Newstalk when only up against Parkinson. He makes the bizarre claim that the peasants want Dublin and Kerry to win All Irelands rather than other peasant counties. I don't recall anyone criticising Down when they won their second All Ireland and if anything Tyrone's popularity grew as they won more All Irelands. Clare hurlers lost a lot of public affection not because we wanted Kilkenny back winning All Irelands but because many people got tired of some elements of the Clare set up.

The crux of his point seems to be that we should leave the Ulster teams alone as others also defend in numbers, even Dublin. And while there is an element of truth in that (which is the problem as it seems to be spreading), it is mainly Ulster teams that use it as their standard tactic. Donegal would play like that against Waterford, as would Cavan or Monaghan. Derry are getting an unfair press in my mind as I don't think they usually play as they did against Dublin but there is no doubt the mass defence is an Ulstercentric tactic and that is why they get the brunt of the criticism but it is now a tool most counties have in their bag and if they feel they'll come up against a team that will use it too we'll get a terrible game which is the problem and the only worthwhile point at this stage.

I think the point of the article and the interview was the hypocrisy of many in their criticism. There are so many sweeping generaliations out there. I went to watch Derry play Kerry and Mayo in Celtic Park this year. Both visiting teams set up with 12 or 13 behind the ball when they didn't have it. Yet neither were even questioned on it. Derry didn't set up that way and left spaces to counterattack into so they conceded high scores to clever counter attacking football. Kerry were the most cynical team I've seen this year in terms of using the tactical foul.

It's the hypocrisy and lazy analysis which imo Heaney is pointing out. He's on record as being no fan of defensive football.

Armamike

I'm no fan of Heaney but in fairness to him he did write an article a few weeks back slating defensive football.
That's just, like your opinion man.

imtommygunn

Quote from: INDIANA on April 10, 2015, 03:37:06 PM
Heaney long stopped being relevant as his northern bias became more obvious with each article. His articles should require a disclaimer pointing to such at the bottom

Do you see any irony in those comments??

Zulu

Quote from: sheamy on April 10, 2015, 03:48:46 PM
Quote from: Zulu on April 10, 2015, 02:39:18 PM
Pretty weak article from Heaney and a weaker defence of it on Newstalk when only up against Parkinson. He makes the bizarre claim that the peasants want Dublin and Kerry to win All Irelands rather than other peasant counties. I don't recall anyone criticising Down when they won their second All Ireland and if anything Tyrone's popularity grew as they won more All Irelands. Clare hurlers lost a lot of public affection not because we wanted Kilkenny back winning All Irelands but because many people got tired of some elements of the Clare set up.

The crux of his point seems to be that we should leave the Ulster teams alone as others also defend in numbers, even Dublin. And while there is an element of truth in that (which is the problem as it seems to be spreading), it is mainly Ulster teams that use it as their standard tactic. Donegal would play like that against Waterford, as would Cavan or Monaghan. Derry are getting an unfair press in my mind as I don't think they usually play as they did against Dublin but there is no doubt the mass defence is an Ulstercentric tactic and that is why they get the brunt of the criticism but it is now a tool most counties have in their bag and if they feel they'll come up against a team that will use it too we'll get a terrible game which is the problem and the only worthwhile point at this stage.

I think the point of the article and the interview was the hypocrisy of many in their criticism. There are so many sweeping generaliations out there. I went to watch Derry play Kerry and Mayo in Celtic Park this year. Both visiting teams set up with 12 or 13 behind the ball when they didn't have it. Yet neither were even questioned on it. Derry didn't set up that way and left spaces to counterattack into so they conceded high scores to clever counter attacking football. Kerry were the most cynical team I've seen this year in terms of using the tactical foul.

It's the hypocrisy and lazy analysis which imo Heaney is pointing out. He's on record as being no fan of defensive football.

I agree, that's what he is trying to say but I don't really think it's valid. I can't comment on games I haven't seen so I don't know how either Kerry or Mayo set up against Derry but the reality is Tyrone and Armagh first brought players back in a structured way and Donegal were the first to get practically everyone back in a systematic way. Nobody is saying most teams don't get players back, they always did, but Ulster teams did it first systematically and more Ulster teams do it as a standard tactic (i.e. against everyone). I don't think Ulster GAA folk can deny that and the likes of Dublin are responding to that rather than using it as a fundamental tactic.

When I criticise mass defending, I'm not criticising Ulster football, I'm just worried about the game and the way it's developing. I'm sure Paddy Heaney shares that concern but if he is more worried that those getting criticised are more Ulster based than southern based then I think he is worried about the wrong thing.

Fear ón Srath Bán

You saw last year's All-Ireland Final Zulu? Let's just say Donegal weren't the only team to retreat en masse.
Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

sheamy

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 10, 2015, 04:52:29 PM
You saw last year's All-Ireland Final Zulu? Let's just say Donegal weren't the only team to retreat en masse.

Ah, but they were only reacting! That doesn't count ;)

Zulu

But that's the point FoSB. If Dublin had made the final then the game would have been very different but as Donegal play a certain way all other teams will mirror that as Kerry did. But lets not lose sight of the only important point here, the mass defending trend is bad for football, not which counties get the most blame for it, which is irrelevant.

AZOffaly

Kerry did not set up with 13 behind the ball. They set up in orthodox positions, and just didn't go forward when Donegal retreated. In other words they didn't do what Dublin walked into.

When they lost the ball, yes, the Kerry half forwards came back, but you cannot say that Kerry set up with 13 behind the ball.

Zulu

Nor did Dublin under Gilroy. All teams will now copy Gilroy's Dublin and simply leave their half backs in position but with retreating half forwards it results, in the same effect as having 13 behind the ball.

AZOffaly

It does, but leaving your 6 backs in their positions is not the same thing in my view. From the throw in, Donegal retreat en masse.

Zulu

Absolutely and I've had this debate here before where some lads tried to say leaving your 6 backs in place is defensive football, it isn't. However, from a spectators point of view, a mass defence team playing a disciplined structured team leads in most cases to a turgid game. Apportioning blame to one or the other is neither here nor there at this stage.

sheamy

who will be the first team to all line up in their own half for the throw in?