A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

Started by winghalfback, May 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM

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Eamonnca1

Quote from: smelmoth on March 09, 2018, 06:52:22 PM
How did the majority of nationalists vote whilst the violence was ongoing?

SDLP. It wasn't until after the IRA ceasefire that SF took over the majority of nationalist votes.

naka

#2146
Arguments that Adams and mc Guinness did the same.
Smelmouth
We can differ on opinion, I lived through all  the troubles as was born in the 60s I am an avid reader of history across the world, like Sykes /picot agreement , NI was a mess from the start
We can argue all night .
ANC atrocities 1983 airforce bombing in Pretoria 19 killed, 219 injured, 1980 sasbourg oil refinery attack , in the truth and reconciliation report they accepted responsibility for 500 bombings over 11 years as well as 95 associated bomb attacks not in their name, the acceptance that they planted land mines that killed farm workers.
Their report makes for grim reading

Eamonnca1

Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 07:19:17 PM
SF don't back violence NOW, but they haven't turned their back on what went on before, so is it not safe to assume that those who vote for them now are content with SF's role in the past?

Only if you consider today's FG voters to be okay with blue-shirted fascists.

Syferus

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 09, 2018, 08:47:37 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 07:19:17 PM
SF don't back violence NOW, but they haven't turned their back on what went on before, so is it not safe to assume that those who vote for them now are content with SF's role in the past?

Only if you consider today's FG voters to be okay with blue-shirted fascists.

The president and leader of FG in 2018 wasn't the head of a terrorist paramilitary organisation. SF's leader at the start of this year on the other hand.. you mentioned straw man arguments rightly earlier but what you've done there is one of the favourite straw men in this thread, drawing a false sense of equivalence between modern FF/FG and SF.

Rossfan

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 09, 2018, 08:44:33 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 09, 2018, 03:53:00 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 09, 2018, 09:16:12 AM
Has Syfīn allowed Tony F to use his account?
He used to be a half baked wildly optimistic Ros fan (+ Mayowestros,  Galway hurlers, St Brigids. .....) but now he's gone into a WUM of the highest order.
His new hobby horse is blaming the GAA for promoting "White Irish Catholic culture" whatever that is.
As 98% of Irish people are white, 70% would class themselves Catholic, 90% are Irish born .....
I suppose the GAA could get all their clubs to play soccer, get their catholic members to convert to some other religions and try and get citizenship of some other Countries.

You and a couple others have got hot under the collar over something as mundane as pointing out the culture the GAA promotes is only reflective of white, Catholic Ireland. There are plenty of other aspects to contemporary Irish culture in case you've somehow missed them all.

Ignoring that fact until we get to a point like in France where minorities feel totally disenfranchised hardly seems like a solution worth considering. Sport is the best vehicle to my mind for promoting inclusion and community irrespective of colour or creed, and an unwillingness for the biggest sporting organisation in the country to let go of old symbols so they can move towards a point in time when all people feel comfortable being part of a GAA club or the wider Gaelic community is also backwards.

Minorities on this island, be they unionists, protestants, Africans, Arabs, Indians, travellers, LGBTQ, all should be part of the GAA and feel equally accepted and a part of the decision-making process. Just because one lad in Ballagh or a few COI lads in Ulster have the balls to stick their heads above the parapet it doesn't mean we have this issue solved. It's a long, hard road but one that should be taken.

Hear hear.

Good Jasus will ya stop encouraging th'eejit with his nonsense.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

seafoid

Quote from: Syferus on March 09, 2018, 08:55:56 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 09, 2018, 08:47:37 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 07:19:17 PM
SF don't back violence NOW, but they haven't turned their back on what went on before, so is it not safe to assume that those who vote for them now are content with SF's role in the past?

Only if you consider today's FG voters to be okay with blue-shirted fascists.

The president and leader of FG in 2018 wasn't the head of a terrorist paramilitary organisation. SF's leader at the start of this year on the other hand.. you mentioned straw man arguments rightly earlier but what you've done there is one of the favourite straw men in this thread, drawing a false sense of equivalence between modern FF/FG and SF.
FG are neoliberals and neoliberalism is a murderous ideology. I wonder how many suicides there were after the crash. There was no need for any regulation.
The terrorists are the ones who don't sell bonds.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Eamonnca1

Quote from: Syferus on March 09, 2018, 08:55:56 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 09, 2018, 08:47:37 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 07:19:17 PM
SF don't back violence NOW, but they haven't turned their back on what went on before, so is it not safe to assume that those who vote for them now are content with SF's role in the past?

Only if you consider today's FG voters to be okay with blue-shirted fascists.

The president and leader of FG in 2018 wasn't the head of a terrorist paramilitary organisation. SF's leader at the start of this year on the other hand.. you mentioned straw man arguments rightly earlier but what you've done there is one of the favourite straw men in this thread, drawing a false sense of equivalence between modern FF/FG and SF.

Who do you think SF's leader is now?

johnnycool

Quote from: naka on March 09, 2018, 08:46:59 PM
Arguments that Adams and mc Guinness did the same.
Smelmouth
We can differ on opinion, I lived through all  the troubles as was born in the 60s I am an avid reader of history across the world, like Sykes /picot agreement , NI was a mess from the start
We can argue all night .
ANC atrocities 1983 airforce bombing in Pretoria 19 killed, 219 injured, 1980 sasbourg oil refinery attack , in the truth and reconciliation report they accepted responsibility for 500 bombings over 11 years as well as 95 associated bomb attacks not in their name, the acceptance that they planted land mines that killed farm workers.
Their report makes for grim reading

This was mostly under the guise of the ANC's military wing, the spear of the nation which Nelson was a founding member of.
No wonder Maggie called him a terrorist  :o

ned

A Catholic's situation in the north was not as dire as the black South Africans, however, we were essentially viewed as second class and not worthy of equal rights hence the civil rights movement which was supported by more than just the nationalist people.

"When a man is denied the right to live the life he believes in, he has no choice but to become an outlaw." Nelson Mandela

Having come through the trauma of the troubles whether on one side or the other, every person, whatever their involvement, had the right to have their say.

"As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind, I'd still be in prison." Nelson Mandela

Just because a party's "terrorist" history is longer in the past doesn't mean they have a greater moral compass.

Owen Brannigan

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 09, 2018, 08:46:03 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 09, 2018, 06:52:22 PM
How did the majority of nationalists vote whilst the violence was ongoing?

SDLP. It wasn't until after the IRA ceasefire that SF took over the majority of nationalist votes.

Helped by the carve up with DUP and SF agreeing at St Andrews that the FM would no longer be from the majority representatives from one community and that FM and DFM would be appointed by the majority party on each side with no vote necessary for Assembly approval. Suits the DUP in destroying UUP and wiping SF eye by ensuring that ILA was never included in the legislation by the Blair government.

This mechanism has polarised the voting as both sides demand that voters should vote for them to keep the other side out/in of FM.

Results now in the FM appointment becoming the most important aspect of the election for the assembly.  So, instead of four relatively equal parties the dominant parties can never be removed from government.  Imagine if an election could be held and unionist voters could vote out DUP without worrying that a non-unionist would take over as FM. Instead we have mirror opposites without any hope of compromise.

Therealdonald

I've never read the same amount of dung as I do on this thread. Its unbelievable. Pure hypocrisy at every turn. Mandela ok-Mcguinness bad.  SF- bad FG/FF-goodie. Catholics in the North had it bad,but not as bad as Mandela and his supporters had it. Pure dung.

Like it or lump it, Catholic's born in the North from 1980/1990 onwards have an equal if not better chance at a successful/prosperous life than their Protestant colleagues at the minute, especially West of the Bann. This all comes off the back of the IRA's campaign. Thats a fact. It wasn't through some kind of magic. Violence was the only option and it worked. University figures back this up with the split in numbers. Back this his up with the history lessons that most young people have learned from their parents/grandparents, use Kevin Lynch as an example, how many young adults grew up listening to Kevin Lynch as the hunger striker who died for rights (that were granted after 10 men died), not as a so called criminal. Less biased news coverage, coupled with better education, let young people make up their own minds and SF are now reaping the benefits.

Syferus

Violence is rarely the only option. To say so is such a convienent lie I can't let it pass.

Syferus

Quote from: Rossfan on March 09, 2018, 09:25:45 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 09, 2018, 08:44:33 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 09, 2018, 03:53:00 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 09, 2018, 09:16:12 AM
Has Syfīn allowed Tony F to use his account?
He used to be a half baked wildly optimistic Ros fan (+ Mayowestros,  Galway hurlers, St Brigids. .....) but now he's gone into a WUM of the highest order.
His new hobby horse is blaming the GAA for promoting "White Irish Catholic culture" whatever that is.
As 98% of Irish people are white, 70% would class themselves Catholic, 90% are Irish born .....
I suppose the GAA could get all their clubs to play soccer, get their catholic members to convert to some other religions and try and get citizenship of some other Countries.

You and a couple others have got hot under the collar over something as mundane as pointing out the culture the GAA promotes is only reflective of white, Catholic Ireland. There are plenty of other aspects to contemporary Irish culture in case you've somehow missed them all.

Ignoring that fact until we get to a point like in France where minorities feel totally disenfranchised hardly seems like a solution worth considering. Sport is the best vehicle to my mind for promoting inclusion and community irrespective of colour or creed, and an unwillingness for the biggest sporting organisation in the country to let go of old symbols so they can move towards a point in time when all people feel comfortable being part of a GAA club or the wider Gaelic community is also backwards.

Minorities on this island, be they unionists, protestants, Africans, Arabs, Indians, travellers, LGBTQ, all should be part of the GAA and feel equally accepted and a part of the decision-making process. Just because one lad in Ballagh or a few COI lads in Ulster have the balls to stick their heads above the parapet it doesn't mean we have this issue solved. It's a long, hard road but one that should be taken.

Hear hear.

Good Jasus will ya stop encouraging th'eejit with his nonsense.

Only you could be pig-headed enough to respond to that with such a silly and childish response.

Therealdonald

Quote from: Syferus on March 09, 2018, 11:02:12 PM
Violence is rarely the only option. To say so is such a convienent lie I can't let it pass.

It was the only option in 1916...and it was the only option after 1969/and or Bloody Sunday, depending on when you want to start.

ned

Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 11:17:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 09, 2018, 11:02:12 PM
Violence is rarely the only option. To say so is such a convienent lie I can't let it pass.

It was the only option in 1916...and it was the only option after 1969/and or Bloody Sunday, depending on when you want to start.

It wasn't the only option. The alternative was to continue as was. If Irish freedom fighters had taken this attitude Roscommon, Cork and the rest may still be under the British thumb but I'm alright Jack.