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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: vallankumous on January 09, 2017, 10:51:11 PM

Title: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: vallankumous on January 09, 2017, 10:51:11 PM
Martin Mc Guinness

Has resigned as Deputy First minister. He has held that post for 10 years. A very public former IRA man turned politician. he has divided many opinions.
Second in command of the IRA in Derry on Bloody Sunday he give evidence to the Saville inquiry. He spoke ard the 1986 Ard Fheis in favour of ending abstentionism in the 26 Counties. He was a major part of the IRA and SF negotiating teams that met with different British agencies throughout the troubles. Martin McGuinness was a driving force for the GFA and eventually became DFM. A role he shared with Ian Paisley. They became workable friends. The GFA (with the part of Republican and Unionist) became the blue print for peace in Ireland. There was no greater part played and no greater effort made by anyone than Martin McGuinness.

It is my view that he is one of Ireland's greatest men. 
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Rossfan on January 09, 2017, 11:18:24 PM
He experienced interesting times alright.
Certainly put doing the right thing before any narrow minded playing to his own gallery unlike the last 2 DUP leaders.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: vallankumous on January 09, 2017, 11:20:11 PM
Thanks Rossfan but this isn't a DUP thread.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: stew on January 10, 2017, 05:02:52 AM
Quote from: vallankumous on January 09, 2017, 10:51:11 PM
Martin Mc Guinness

Has resigned as Deputy First minister. He has held that post for 10 years. A very public former IRA man turned politician. he has divided many opinions.
Second in command of the IRA in Derry on Bloody Sunday he give evidence to the Saville inquiry. He spoke ard the 1986 Ard Fheis in favour of ending abstentionism in the 26 Counties. He was a major part of the IRA and SF negotiating teams that met with different British agencies throughout the troubles. Martin McGuinness was a driving force for the GFA and eventually became DFM. A role he shared with Ian Paisley. They became workable friends. The GFA (with the part of Republican and Unionist) became the blue print for peace in Ireland. There was no greater part played and no greater effort made by anyone than Martin McGuinness.

It is my view that he is one of Ireland's greatest men.

There are some that think he was a tout, and I mean hard line republicans that think that, I have no idea if he was or was not but he is far from one of Irelands finest.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: general_lee on January 10, 2017, 07:54:57 AM
Not many have gone out of their comfort zone as much as McGuinness has. Comes across a lot more sincerely than most others
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2017, 08:36:36 AM
Definitely a fascinating story that mirrors the catholic story from the 60s to now. From Untermensch to power sharing . The funny thing is that the IRA destroyed large chunks of the NI economy so when SF came into Government there wasn't much of an independent private sector left.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 10, 2017, 09:51:05 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 10, 2017, 08:36:36 AM
Definitely a fascinating story that mirrors the catholic story from the 60s to now. From Untermensch to power sharing . The funny thing is that the IRA destroyed large chunks of the NI economy so when SF came into Government there wasn't much of an independent private sector left.

They certainly created a lot of jobs for the private sector though!! Building trades, glazers, metal work (fleg poles, grills around all the pubs)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: vallankumous on January 10, 2017, 12:16:17 PM
Quote from: stew on January 10, 2017, 05:02:52 AM

There are some that think he was a tout, and I mean hard line republicans that think that, I have no idea if he was or was not but he is far from one of Irelands finest.

There are some that think the Queen of England is a Lizard.
I don't trust your sources.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 12:47:54 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on January 10, 2017, 12:16:17 PM
Quote from: stew on January 10, 2017, 05:02:52 AM

There are some that think he was a tout, and I mean hard line republicans that think that, I have no idea if he was or was not but he is far from one of Irelands finest.

There are some that think the Queen of England is a Lizard.
I don't trust your sources.

Scores of former senior IRA members claim he is a tout. That much is common knowledge
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2017, 12:54:15 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 12:47:54 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on January 10, 2017, 12:16:17 PM
Quote from: stew on January 10, 2017, 05:02:52 AM

There are some that think he was a tout, and I mean hard line republicans that think that, I have no idea if he was or was not but he is far from one of Irelands finest.

There are some that think the Queen of England is a Lizard.
I don't trust your sources.

Scores of former senior IRA members claim he is a tout. That much is common knowledge
[/quote ]
Half of the leadership could have been working for the Brits in the end
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: MoChara on January 10, 2017, 01:01:49 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 12:47:54 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on January 10, 2017, 12:16:17 PM
Quote from: stew on January 10, 2017, 05:02:52 AM

There are some that think he was a tout, and I mean hard line republicans that think that, I have no idea if he was or was not but he is far from one of Irelands finest.

There are some that think the Queen of England is a Lizard.
I don't trust your sources.

Scores of former senior IRA members claim he is a tout. That much is common knowledge


Martin Ingram a MI6 officer was the first to claim he was J118 
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: vallankumous on January 10, 2017, 01:09:26 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 12:47:54 PM

Scores of former senior IRA members claim he is a tout. That much is common knowledge

No they don't. Vast majority of the senior IRA members are supportive of McGuinness.
You are mistaking senior Dissidents with former members of the IRA. They were never senior PIRA members and some of them where never members of the PIRA.
If they do claim he was a tout then they would accuse him of that but rather they accuse him of selling out.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 01:15:07 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on January 10, 2017, 01:09:26 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 12:47:54 PM

Scores of former senior IRA members claim he is a tout. That much is common knowledge

No they don't. Vast majority of the senior IRA members are supportive of McGuinness.
You are mistaking senior Dissidents with former members of the IRA. They were never senior PIRA members and some of them where never members of the PIRA.
If they do claim he was a tout then they would accuse him of that but rather they accuse him of selling out.

You are very ill informed.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: AhNowRef on January 10, 2017, 01:32:46 PM
As far as I can see McGuinness tried his best to make this thing work ,... he bent over backwards regarding the DUP but there's always a final straw and this was it ... the DUP's continued arrogance, incompetence, corruption and blatant sectarianism has finally caught up with them ...

Arlene (Mans Head) Fester is a complete joke and a fool ... to think that this pathetic specimen was calling herself the "gatekeeper" a while back is worthy of a comedy award..

Anyway, the upshot is that we're all on a worse footing now because of all this but I can certainly see why he's pulled the plug.

Personally I think he's the best we've got and I for one hope he's ok and pulls through this.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Take Your Points on January 10, 2017, 01:47:34 PM
Quote from: general_lee on January 10, 2017, 07:54:57 AM
Not many have gone out of their comfort zone as much as McGuinness has. Comes across a lot more sincerely than most others

Ian Paisley and Peter Robinson when first minister
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: OakleafCounty on January 10, 2017, 02:07:39 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 12:47:54 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on January 10, 2017, 12:16:17 PM
Quote from: stew on January 10, 2017, 05:02:52 AM

There are some that think he was a tout, and I mean hard line republicans that think that, I have no idea if he was or was not but he is far from one of Irelands finest.

There are some that think the Queen of England is a Lizard.
I don't trust your sources.

Scores of former senior IRA members claim he is a tout. That much is common knowledge

If 'scores' of provos felt he was a tout then surely he'd be dead? Or have they only come to that conclusion recently? He still lives in the middle of the Bogside FFS.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 02:19:31 PM
Insufficient Evidence ... 

Wednesday, April 09, 2014   

Guest writer, Thomas Dixie Elliot with some thoughts on the Provisional IRA's chief of staff from 1978-1982 being able to evade prison time in the North.


The 2nd highest ranking member of PIRA/PSF was never interned. The only time he was arrested and jailed in the North was for a few weeks on an IRA membership charge and the Crown Prosecutor released him saying twice that he was 'instructed' Not to Proceed with the Prosecution due to insufficient evidence ...

However in 1972 McGuinness was filmed twice by British TV crews speaking on behalf of the IRA, one being the famous Tom Mangold interview on Stanleys Walk in which McGuinness was described by Mangold as they walked 'as The Officer Commanding The Derry Part Of The IRA...?' The other time being in May just after the OIRA ceasefire...

Yet in 1976 the Crown Prosecutor said he was 'instructed not to proceed with the prosecution due to insufficient evidence'.

(Who instructed a Crown Prosecutor?)

Again during the Raymond Gilmour supergrass trail many Derry IRA members and Republican activists were arrested but not McGuinness who was free to wander round Derry. According to recently released documents Garret Fitzgerald asked Jim Prior why they didn't use Gilmours evidence to jail McGuinness. Prior said because they had no evidence...

A supergrass names every Republican in Derry yet gives no evidence which could jail Derry and the North's most prominent IRA man?

Today he leads PSF further and further into a humiliating acceptance of Britain's role in the North. He does these things because he knows what they know and are capable of doing if he doesn't...

http://thepensivequill.am/2014/04/insufficient-evidence.html
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: vallankumous on January 10, 2017, 02:26:55 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 02:19:31 PM
Insufficient Evidence ... 

Wednesday, April 09, 2014   

Guest writer, Thomas Dixie Elliot with some thoughts on the Provisional IRA's chief of staff from 1978-1982 being able to evade prison time in the North.


The 2nd highest ranking member of PIRA/PSF was never interned. The only time he was arrested and jailed in the North was for a few weeks on an IRA membership charge and the Crown Prosecutor released him saying twice that he was 'instructed' Not to Proceed with the Prosecution due to insufficient evidence ...

However in 1972 McGuinness was filmed twice by British TV crews speaking on behalf of the IRA, one being the famous Tom Mangold interview on Stanleys Walk in which McGuinness was described by Mangold as they walked 'as The Officer Commanding The Derry Part Of The IRA...?' The other time being in May just after the OIRA ceasefire...

Yet in 1976 the Crown Prosecutor said he was 'instructed not to proceed with the prosecution due to insufficient evidence'.

(Who instructed a Crown Prosecutor?)

Again during the Raymond Gilmour supergrass trail many Derry IRA members and Republican activists were arrested but not McGuinness who was free to wander round Derry. According to recently released documents Garret Fitzgerald asked Jim Prior why they didn't use Gilmours evidence to jail McGuinness. Prior said because they had no evidence...

A supergrass names every Republican in Derry yet gives no evidence which could jail Derry and the North's most prominent IRA man?

Today he leads PSF further and further into a humiliating acceptance of Britain's role in the North. He does these things because he knows what they know and are capable of doing if he doesn't...

http://thepensivequill.am/2014/04/insufficient-evidence.html

Are you using the idea that there was insufficient evidence as evidence for something else?
That makes no sense.
There is always a case for not naming top people in a supergrass trial. If you have to name someone you name the least important people.

Who instructed him? I'd imagine it was the judge.

That last line is a little telling.

There is nothing about being a tout in that. It's left to the reader to come to that conclusion while the writer can claim he never said it.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Main Street on January 10, 2017, 02:28:49 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 02:19:31 PM
Insufficient Evidence ... 

Wednesday, April 09, 2014   

Guest writer, Thomas Dixie Elliot with some thoughts on the Provisional IRA's chief of staff from 1978-1982 being able to evade prison time in the North.


The 2nd highest ranking member of PIRA/PSF was never interned. The only time he was arrested and jailed in the North was for a few weeks on an IRA membership charge and the Crown Prosecutor released him saying twice that he was 'instructed' Not to Proceed with the Prosecution due to insufficient evidence ...

However in 1972 McGuinness was filmed twice by British TV crews speaking on behalf of the IRA, one being the famous Tom Mangold interview on Stanleys Walk in which McGuinness was described by Mangold as they walked 'as The Officer Commanding The Derry Part Of The IRA...?' The other time being in May just after the OIRA ceasefire...

Yet in 1976 the Crown Prosecutor said he was 'instructed not to proceed with the prosecution due to insufficient evidence'.

(Who instructed a Crown Prosecutor?)

Again during the Raymond Gilmour supergrass trail many Derry IRA members and Republican activists were arrested but not McGuinness who was free to wander round Derry. According to recently released documents Garret Fitzgerald asked Jim Prior why they didn't use Gilmours evidence to jail McGuinness. Prior said because they had no evidence...

A supergrass names every Republican in Derry yet gives no evidence which could jail Derry and the North's most prominent IRA man?

Today he leads PSF further and further into a humiliating acceptance of Britain's role in the North. He does these things because he knows what they know and are capable of doing if he doesn't...

http://thepensivequill.am/2014/04/insufficient-evidence.html
;D
That's deranged horsedung.
Only certified idiots would classify that as anything other than low standard, 100% unsubstantiated waffle.
That's supposed to be evidence that McGuinness was a tout?? ;D

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: AhNowRef on January 10, 2017, 02:30:34 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 02:19:31 PM
Insufficient Evidence ... 

Wednesday, April 09, 2014   

Guest writer, Thomas Dixie Elliot with some thoughts on the Provisional IRA's chief of staff from 1978-1982 being able to evade prison time in the North.


The 2nd highest ranking member of PIRA/PSF was never interned. The only time he was arrested and jailed in the North was for a few weeks on an IRA membership charge and the Crown Prosecutor released him saying twice that he was 'instructed' Not to Proceed with the Prosecution due to insufficient evidence ...

However in 1972 McGuinness was filmed twice by British TV crews speaking on behalf of the IRA, one being the famous Tom Mangold interview on Stanleys Walk in which McGuinness was described by Mangold as they walked 'as The Officer Commanding The Derry Part Of The IRA...?' The other time being in May just after the OIRA ceasefire...

Yet in 1976 the Crown Prosecutor said he was 'instructed not to proceed with the prosecution due to insufficient evidence'.

(Who instructed a Crown Prosecutor?)

Again during the Raymond Gilmour supergrass trail many Derry IRA members and Republican activists were arrested but not McGuinness who was free to wander round Derry. According to recently released documents Garret Fitzgerald asked Jim Prior why they didn't use Gilmours evidence to jail McGuinness. Prior said because they had no evidence...

A supergrass names every Republican in Derry yet gives no evidence which could jail Derry and the North's most prominent IRA man?

Today he leads PSF further and further into a humiliating acceptance of Britain's role in the North. He does these things because he knows what they know and are capable of doing if he doesn't...

http://thepensivequill.am/2014/04/insufficient-evidence.html

We get it, your not a fan but the posting above is utter nonsense Im afraid..
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Puckoon on January 10, 2017, 02:49:27 PM
GHD - a guest contributors article to the pensive quill is something special as a source all right!!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: thebuzz on January 10, 2017, 03:08:26 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on January 10, 2017, 02:07:39 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 12:47:54 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on January 10, 2017, 12:16:17 PM
Quote from: stew on January 10, 2017, 05:02:52 AM

There are some that think he was a tout, and I mean hard line republicans that think that, I have no idea if he was or was not but he is far from one of Irelands finest.

There are some that think the Queen of England is a Lizard.
I don't trust your sources.

Scores of former senior IRA members claim he is a tout. That much is common knowledge

If 'scores' of provos felt he was a tout then surely he'd be dead? Or have they only come to that conclusion recently? He still lives in the middle of the Bogside FFS.
[/b]

From the first time I saw the word tout mentioned on this thread I said the same to myself. If he was a tout he'd be 6 foot under long ago like Denis Donaldson whether rightly or wrongly.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: thewobbler on January 10, 2017, 03:19:56 PM
This thread reminds of that quote about "the greatest trick ever pulled by the devil..."
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2017, 03:20:40 PM
Who else was working for her majesty other than Donaldson and Scappatacci?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: thebuzz on January 10, 2017, 03:36:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 10, 2017, 03:20:40 PM
Who else was working for her majesty other than Donaldson and Scappatacci?

I don't know of any others or any as high profile as these two. The fact that Scappaticci is on the run (was living in Italy) would imply that McGuinness isn't suspected of anything or he wouldn't be hanging around Derry.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: vallankumous on January 10, 2017, 03:36:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 10, 2017, 03:20:40 PM
Who else was working for her majesty other than Donaldson and Scappatacci?

I'd say at the time there were loads of low level guys. Eamonn Collins. Sean O'Callaghan working for the Gardai.
There was a wide range of ways of gathering info from people but not all would be classed in the same level.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Avondhu star on January 10, 2017, 03:50:15 PM
Slogan on wall in Derry
" I knew Raymond Gilmour. Than God he didnt know me"

Whatever about the UUP the DUP have never fully accepted power sharing. They tolerated Paisleys enthusiasm in the knowledge that age was against him. But Paisley was vehemently against Sunningdale power sharing and as a result we had another 20 years of slaughter
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2017, 04:49:08 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on January 10, 2017, 03:50:15 PM
Slogan on wall in Derry
" I knew Raymond Gilmour. Than God he didnt know me"

Whatever about the UUP the DUP have never fully accepted power sharing. They tolerated Paisleys enthusiasm in the knowledge that age was against him. But Paisley was vehemently against Sunningdale power sharing and as a result we had another 20 years of slaughter
Gilmour died recently
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 04:51:09 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on January 10, 2017, 02:49:27 PM
GHD - a guest contributors article to the pensive quill is something special as a source all right!!

Dixie Elliott is a former blanket man from Derry, and someone who knew McGuinness well.

In Republican circles he is a highly respected man, and his views are widely respected.

As a source, he is well placed to have an informed opinion.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 04:55:47 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 10, 2017, 02:28:49 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 02:19:31 PM
Insufficient Evidence ... 

Wednesday, April 09, 2014   

Guest writer, Thomas Dixie Elliot with some thoughts on the Provisional IRA's chief of staff from 1978-1982 being able to evade prison time in the North.


The 2nd highest ranking member of PIRA/PSF was never interned. The only time he was arrested and jailed in the North was for a few weeks on an IRA membership charge and the Crown Prosecutor released him saying twice that he was 'instructed' Not to Proceed with the Prosecution due to insufficient evidence ...

However in 1972 McGuinness was filmed twice by British TV crews speaking on behalf of the IRA, one being the famous Tom Mangold interview on Stanleys Walk in which McGuinness was described by Mangold as they walked 'as The Officer Commanding The Derry Part Of The IRA...?' The other time being in May just after the OIRA ceasefire...

Yet in 1976 the Crown Prosecutor said he was 'instructed not to proceed with the prosecution due to insufficient evidence'.

(Who instructed a Crown Prosecutor?)

Again during the Raymond Gilmour supergrass trail many Derry IRA members and Republican activists were arrested but not McGuinness who was free to wander round Derry. According to recently released documents Garret Fitzgerald asked Jim Prior why they didn't use Gilmours evidence to jail McGuinness. Prior said because they had no evidence...

A supergrass names every Republican in Derry yet gives no evidence which could jail Derry and the North's most prominent IRA man?

Today he leads PSF further and further into a humiliating acceptance of Britain's role in the North. He does these things because he knows what they know and are capable of doing if he doesn't...

http://thepensivequill.am/2014/04/insufficient-evidence.html
;D
That's deranged horsedung.
Only certified idiots would classify that as anything other than low standard, 100% unsubstantiated waffle.
That's supposed to be evidence that McGuinness was a tout?? ;D

Paper cutting from the trial at the time

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HT7IijavuqU/U0WS9TbzPFI/AAAAAAAAEh8/3QxpNyyHxho/s1600/McGuinness.jpg)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: AhNowRef on January 10, 2017, 05:01:19 PM
I would assume that not 100% of cases are acted on .. would this scenario not be normal enough no  ::)

Seems pretty poor "evidence" to me.. pathetic in fact ..
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: AhNowRef on January 10, 2017, 05:11:17 PM
Apparently this is true ...
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=the+start+-+bus+found+on+moon&biw=1440&bih=745&tbm=isch&imgil=XnN0GMyrBQzizM%253A%253BJYk3wPipo1JIsM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.flickr.com%25252Fphotos%25252F62440303%252540N04%25252Falbums%25252F72157626637970276%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=XnN0GMyrBQzizM%253A%252CJYk3wPipo1JIsM%252C_&usg=__gH8ZPQxoKSHQ7nLZ_FP0DtG9pjQ%3D&ved=0ahUKEwimre2JibjRAhWqLsAKHVh0BrIQyjcIKQ&ei=oBV1WKbdCqrdgAbY6JmQCw#imgrc=XnN0GMyrBQzizM%3A

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 05:15:32 PM
Quote from: MoChara on January 10, 2017, 01:01:49 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 12:47:54 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on January 10, 2017, 12:16:17 PM
Quote from: stew on January 10, 2017, 05:02:52 AM

There are some that think he was a tout, and I mean hard line republicans that think that, I have no idea if he was or was not but he is far from one of Irelands finest.

There are some that think the Queen of England is a Lizard.
I don't trust your sources.

Scores of former senior IRA members claim he is a tout. That much is common knowledge


Martin Ingram a MI6 officer was the first to claim he was J118

Lots of info and links here in regards to Ingrams claims   

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Document:Is_Martin_McGuinness_a_British_Agent%3F
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: vallankumous on January 10, 2017, 05:24:12 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2017, 04:51:09 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on January 10, 2017, 02:49:27 PM
GHD - a guest contributors article to the pensive quill is something special as a source all right!!

Dixie Elliott is a former blanket man from Derry, and someone who knew McGuinness well.

In Republican circles he is a highly respected man, and his views are widely respected.

As a source, he is well placed to have an informed opinion.

None of that link you posted is from his well placed position.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: uimhr ocht on January 10, 2017, 06:09:38 PM
He deserves credit along with adams for politically trying to bring an end to the orange state,in 1998 the maze was full of  republicans they got released under GFA,the ruc was disbanded,and republicans were in power at stormont,30 years ago this was unimaginable it was an orange state for the protestant people,no equality or civil rights.I think MI5 had played a part in trying to undermine mc guiness when he was in power at stormont by claiming he was an agent dirty tricks more likely.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: lenny on January 10, 2017, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on January 10, 2017, 06:09:38 PM
He deserves credit along with adams for politically trying to bring an end to the orange state,in 1998 the maze was full of  republicans they got released under GFA,the ruc was disbanded,and republicans were in power at stormont,30 years ago this was unimaginable it was an orange state for the protestant people,no equality or civil rights.I think MI5 had played a part in trying to undermine mc guiness when he was in power at stormont by claiming he was an agent dirty tricks more likely.

He is by far the most statesmanlike politician we have had in the north in the past 10-15 years. He has done an incredible job for the peace process and it is really sad to see him looking so unwell. For the sake of us all it would be great to see him make a recovery.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: AhNowRef on January 10, 2017, 06:31:06 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 10, 2017, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on January 10, 2017, 06:09:38 PM
He deserves credit along with adams for politically trying to bring an end to the orange state,in 1998 the maze was full of  republicans they got released under GFA,the ruc was disbanded,and republicans were in power at stormont,30 years ago this was unimaginable it was an orange state for the protestant people,no equality or civil rights.I think MI5 had played a part in trying to undermine mc guiness when he was in power at stormont by claiming he was an agent dirty tricks more likely.

He is by far the most statesmanlike politician we have had in the north in the past 10-15 years. He has done an incredible job for the peace process and it is really sad to see him looking so unwell. For the sake of us all it would be great to see him make a recovery.

Nail on head there ....   He's the best statesman we have and he's genuinely tried his best .... I hope he's ok !!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Franko on January 10, 2017, 08:49:00 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 10, 2017, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on January 10, 2017, 06:09:38 PM
He deserves credit along with adams for politically trying to bring an end to the orange state,in 1998 the maze was full of  republicans they got released under GFA,the ruc was disbanded,and republicans were in power at stormont,30 years ago this was unimaginable it was an orange state for the protestant people,no equality or civil rights.I think MI5 had played a part in trying to undermine mc guiness when he was in power at stormont by claiming he was an agent dirty tricks more likely.

He is by far the most statesmanlike politician we have had in the north in the past 10-15 years. He has done an incredible job for the peace process and it is really sad to see him looking so unwell. For the sake of us all it would be great to see him make a recovery.

+1
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: 5 Sams on January 10, 2017, 09:29:24 PM
Quote from: AhNowRef on January 10, 2017, 06:31:06 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 10, 2017, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on January 10, 2017, 06:09:38 PM
He deserves credit along with adams for politically trying to bring an end to the orange state,in 1998 the maze was full of  republicans they got released under GFA,the ruc was disbanded,and republicans were in power at stormont,30 years ago this was unimaginable it was an orange state for the protestant people,no equality or civil rights.I think MI5 had played a part in trying to undermine mc guiness when he was in power at stormont by claiming he was an agent dirty tricks more likely.

He is by far the most statesmanlike politician we have had in the north in the past 10-15 years. He has done an incredible job for the peace process and it is really sad to see him looking so unwell. For the sake of us all it would be great to see him make a recovery.

Nail on head there ....   He's the best statesman we have and he's genuinely tried his best .... I hope he's ok !!

Given his background the fact he was able to get Paisley on board as one of his buddies indicates he has serious charisma and had enormous credibility as a politician over the last 10 plus years...ffs I even saw a pic of him and Arlene arm in arm at some event laughing their heads off together a few years ago.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2017, 09:46:12 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on January 10, 2017, 09:29:24 PM
Quote from: AhNowRef on January 10, 2017, 06:31:06 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 10, 2017, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on January 10, 2017, 06:09:38 PM
He deserves credit along with adams for politically trying to bring an end to the orange state,in 1998 the maze was full of  republicans they got released under GFA,the ruc was disbanded,and republicans were in power at stormont,30 years ago this was unimaginable it was an orange state for the protestant people,no equality or civil rights.I think MI5 had played a part in trying to undermine mc guiness when he was in power at stormont by claiming he was an agent dirty tricks more likely.

He is by far the most statesmanlike politician we have had in the north in the past 10-15 years. He has done an incredible job for the peace process and it is really sad to see him looking so unwell. For the sake of us all it would be great to see him make a recovery.

Nail on head there ....   He's the best statesman we have and he's genuinely tried his best .... I hope he's ok !!

Given his background the fact he was able to get Paisley on board as one of his buddies indicates he has serious charisma and had enormous credibility as a politician over the last 10 plus years...ffs I even saw a pic of him and Arlene arm in arm at some event laughing their heads off together a few years ago.
Just goes to show the quality available on the other side of the house, that the Unionists thought they didn't need for so many years. Compare to Gregory Campbell, mar shampla
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Take Your Points on January 11, 2017, 09:59:17 AM
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/love-your-enemies-says-dup-man-on-mcguinness-illness-1-7766567 (http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/love-your-enemies-says-dup-man-on-mcguinness-illness-1-7766567)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: WT4E on January 11, 2017, 10:14:59 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on January 11, 2017, 09:59:17 AM
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/love-your-enemies-says-dup-man-on-mcguinness-illness-1-7766567 (http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/love-your-enemies-says-dup-man-on-mcguinness-illness-1-7766567)

I think the sentiment in what he said shows up pretty well!!!!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Franko on January 11, 2017, 10:25:08 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on January 11, 2017, 09:59:17 AM
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/love-your-enemies-says-dup-man-on-mcguinness-illness-1-7766567 (http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/love-your-enemies-says-dup-man-on-mcguinness-illness-1-7766567)

Is this article supposed to show that the DUP are capable of showing some empathy?  Are you having a laugh?  Did you actually read it?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Take Your Points on January 11, 2017, 11:31:05 PM
Well worth a read:

http://eamonnmallie.com/2017/01/grace-by-eamonn-mallie/[/b]]http://eamonnmallie.com/2017/01/grace-by-eamonn-mallie/ (http://[b)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: podge on January 12, 2017, 08:02:04 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 10, 2017, 09:46:12 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on January 10, 2017, 09:29:24 PM
Quote from: AhNowRef on January 10, 2017, 06:31:06 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 10, 2017, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on January 10, 2017, 06:09:38 PM
He deserves credit along with adams for politically trying to bring an end to the orange state,in 1998 the maze was full of  republicans they got released under GFA,the ruc was disbanded,and republicans were in power at stormont,30 years ago this was unimaginable it was an orange state for the protestant people,no equality or civil rights.I think MI5 had played a part in trying to undermine mc guiness when he was in power at stormont by claiming he was an agent dirty tricks more likely.

He is by far the most statesmanlike politician we have had in the north in the past 10-15 years. He has done an incredible job for the peace process and it is really sad to see him looking so unwell. For the sake of us all it would be great to see him make a recovery.

Nail on head there ....   He's the best statesman we have and he's genuinely tried his best .... I hope he's ok !!

Given his background the fact he was able to get Paisley on board as one of his buddies indicates he has serious charisma and had enormous credibility as a politician over the last 10 plus years...ffs I even saw a pic of him and Arlene arm in arm at some event laughing their heads off together a few years ago.
Just goes to show the quality available on the other side of the house[/b][/i], that the Unionists thought they didn't need for so many years. Compare to Gregory Campbell, mar shampla

Seriously, where's the depth of quality on 'this side of the house'?  With Martin gone, temporarily or otherwise, it has brought to a head very clear succession issues.  Adams is and always has been a liability that Martin was able to keep in check.  Plenty of balloons like Carol Ni Chuilin and other to match Gregory.  Very noticeable jockeying for positions in the last few weeks and surprised at M O'Neill being thrust forward yesterday as the spokesman with Conor Murphy standing obediently at her side and Martin O Muiller no where in sight

Lets face it, SF are all over the place as well and there has been several U-turns in the last few by them as well.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Applesisapples on January 12, 2017, 10:24:22 AM
Martin McGuinness and Adams for that matter weren't charged with any offence quite simply because they were talking to the Brits from the early '70's. For the Brits to remove them from the process would have led to further instability and no chance of getting Republicans talking. It was simply expedient and this is typical behaviour of colonising powers right back to Pilate and Jesus. Only difference being Pilate gave into the baying mob.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: OakleafCounty on January 12, 2017, 11:19:04 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 12, 2017, 10:24:22 AM
Martin McGuinness and Adams for that matter weren't charged with any offence quite simply because they were talking to the Brits from the early '70's. For the Brits to remove them from the process would have led to further instability and no chance of getting Republicans talking. It was simply expedient and this is typical behaviour of colonising powers right back to Pilate and Jesus. Only difference being Pilate gave into the baying mob.

I think comparing him to Jesus is going a bit far. Though delivering a UI at the moment would be a miracle.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: DuffleKing on January 12, 2017, 11:45:59 AM

Conor Murphy will be the next DFM. He's the best SF have, which projects very poorly.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: 5 Sams on January 12, 2017, 11:52:53 AM
Quote from: podge on January 12, 2017, 08:02:04 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 10, 2017, 09:46:12 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on January 10, 2017, 09:29:24 PM
Quote from: AhNowRef on January 10, 2017, 06:31:06 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 10, 2017, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on January 10, 2017, 06:09:38 PM
He deserves credit along with adams for politically trying to bring an end to the orange state,in 1998 the maze was full of  republicans they got released under GFA,the ruc was disbanded,and republicans were in power at stormont,30 years ago this was unimaginable it was an orange state for the protestant people,no equality or civil rights.I think MI5 had played a part in trying to undermine mc guiness when he was in power at stormont by claiming he was an agent dirty tricks more likely.

He is by far the most statesmanlike politician we have had in the north in the past 10-15 years. He has done an incredible job for the peace process and it is really sad to see him looking so unwell. For the sake of us all it would be great to see him make a recovery.

Nail on head there ....   He's the best statesman we have and he's genuinely tried his best .... I hope he's ok !!

Given his background the fact he was able to get Paisley on board as one of his buddies indicates he has serious charisma and had enormous credibility as a politician over the last 10 plus years...ffs I even saw a pic of him and Arlene arm in arm at some event laughing their heads off together a few years ago.
Just goes to show the quality available on the other side of the house[/b][/i], that the Unionists thought they didn't need for so many years. Compare to Gregory Campbell, mar shampla

Seriously, where's the depth of quality on 'this side of the house'?  With Martin gone, temporarily or otherwise, it has brought to a head very clear succession issues.  Adams is and always has been a liability that Martin was able to keep in check.  Plenty of balloons like Carol Ni Chuilin and other to match Gregory.  Very noticeable jockeying for positions in the last few weeks and surprised at M O'Neill being thrust forward yesterday as the spokesman with Conor Murphy standing obediently at her side and Martin O Muiller no where in sight

Lets face it, SF are all over the place as well and there has been several U-turns in the last few by them as well.

Pearse Doherty is probably the most capable bod they have but they need him in the Dáil.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Keyboard Warrior on January 12, 2017, 11:56:35 AM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 12, 2017, 11:45:59 AM

Conor Murphy will be the next DFM. He's the best SF have, which projects very poorly.

My bet will be Michelle O'Neill. When you get past the snobbish sneers about the way she talks you find what she has to say is very articulate. Best SF have by a clear distance.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Hardy on January 12, 2017, 12:37:27 PM
What's P. O'Neill doing these days?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Gaffer on January 12, 2017, 10:15:32 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4114714/Martin-McGuinness-just-six-years-live-diagnosed-rare-life-threatening-genetic-disease.html
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: StGallsGAA on January 12, 2017, 11:33:03 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 12, 2017, 10:15:32 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4114714/Martin-McGuinness-just-six-years-live-diagnosed-rare-life-threatening-genetic-disease.html

Of course the McGuinness family would break their the story to the Daily Mail first.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 13, 2017, 12:08:48 AM
Mairtin O'Muilleoir's a capable chap. A smart cookie, very progressive, but been around long enough to know the kind of the DUP and wouldn't be a bit naive.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 13, 2017, 12:41:35 AM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 12, 2017, 10:15:32 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4114714/Martin-McGuinness-just-six-years-live-diagnosed-rare-life-threatening-genetic-disease.html

If it's in the Daily Mail then it must be true.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 13, 2017, 07:35:58 AM
Quote from: Hardy on January 12, 2017, 12:37:27 PM
What's P. O'Neill doing these days?
I think he was working as a fixer for Denis Ô Brien in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Changed his name to Kurtz
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: NAG1 on January 13, 2017, 02:43:34 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 13, 2017, 12:41:35 AM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 12, 2017, 10:15:32 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4114714/Martin-McGuinness-just-six-years-live-diagnosed-rare-life-threatening-genetic-disease.html

If it's in the Daily Mail then it must be true.

Why would anyone remotely connected with the GAA Board be reading/ quoting the Daily Mail?
Beggars belief.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: armaghniac on January 13, 2017, 02:50:14 PM
Quote from: StGallsGAA on January 12, 2017, 11:33:03 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 12, 2017, 10:15:32 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4114714/Martin-McGuinness-just-six-years-live-diagnosed-rare-life-threatening-genetic-disease.html

Of course the McGuinness family would break their the story to the Daily Mail first.

they might not. Th Daily Mail may have paid off someone in the hospital though.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Gaffer on January 13, 2017, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on January 13, 2017, 02:43:34 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 13, 2017, 12:41:35 AM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 12, 2017, 10:15:32 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4114714/Martin-McGuinness-just-six-years-live-diagnosed-rare-life-threatening-genetic-disease.html

If it's in the Daily Mail then it must be true.

Why would anyone remotely connected with the GAA Board be reading/ quoting the Daily Mail?
Beggars belief.

Can't wait to hear what is wrong with it!!!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: stew on January 13, 2017, 05:22:44 PM
Quote from: Keyboard Warrior on January 12, 2017, 11:56:35 AM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 12, 2017, 11:45:59 AM

Conor Murphy will be the next DFM. He's the best SF have, which projects very poorly.

My bet will be Michelle O'Neill. When you get past the snobbish sneers about the way she talks you find what she has to say is very articulate. Best SF have by a clear distance.

Michelle Gildernew is probably too republican for the shinners, by all accounts she did a great job in the agriculture sector.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: JoG2 on January 13, 2017, 05:24:32 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 13, 2017, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on January 13, 2017, 02:43:34 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 13, 2017, 12:41:35 AM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 12, 2017, 10:15:32 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4114714/Martin-McGuinness-just-six-years-live-diagnosed-rare-life-threatening-genetic-disease.html

If it's in the Daily Mail then it must be true.

Why would anyone remotely connected with the GAA Board be reading/ quoting the Daily Mail?
Beggars belief.

Can't wait to hear what is wrong with it!!!

You have to be on the wind up!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: theticklemister on January 13, 2017, 06:39:03 PM
Now Ireland is very funny place sir, it's a strange and troubled land
And the Irish are a bloody funny race sir, every girl is in the cumman na mban
Every doggie has a tri-coloured ribbon tied firmly to its tail
And wouldn't it surprising if there be another rising, said yer man from the  £$"%^ &%*(
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Gaffer on January 13, 2017, 06:43:04 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 13, 2017, 05:24:32 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 13, 2017, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on January 13, 2017, 02:43:34 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 13, 2017, 12:41:35 AM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 12, 2017, 10:15:32 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4114714/Martin-McGuinness-just-six-years-live-diagnosed-rare-life-threatening-genetic-disease.html

If it's in the Daily Mail then it must be true.

Why would anyone remotely connected with the GAA Board be reading/ quoting the Daily Mail?
Beggars belief.

Can't wait to hear what is wrong with it!!!

What I mean was , what was wrong with posting a link from the paper. The Nag boyo thinks anyone remotely connected with the GAA board should not be reading the Daily Mail. I read it , mostly for the sport but posted this because I thought it may be of interest considering the topic.

You have to be on the wind up!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Syferus on January 13, 2017, 06:46:08 PM
The free state media. Don't trust it either. I only get my information from the quarterly Shin Fein newsletter.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: armaghniac on January 13, 2017, 08:20:52 PM
Quote from: stew on January 13, 2017, 05:22:44 PM
Quote from: Keyboard Warrior on January 12, 2017, 11:56:35 AM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 12, 2017, 11:45:59 AM

Conor Murphy will be the next DFM. He's the best SF have, which projects very poorly.

My bet will be Michelle O'Neill. When you get past the snobbish sneers about the way she talks you find what she has to say is very articulate. Best SF have by a clear distance.

Michelle Gildernew is probably too republican for the shinners, by all accounts she did a great job in the agriculture sector.

What happened Michelle Gildernew, she definitely seem among the more competent (albeit without much competition)?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Tony Baloney on January 13, 2017, 08:59:53 PM
I think she was replaced by the now ex- candidate Phil Flanagan in FST.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Take Your Points on January 13, 2017, 09:44:38 PM
http://aims.niassembly.gov.uk/mlas/details.aspx?&aff=11813&per=41&sel=1&ind=0&prv=0 (http://aims.niassembly.gov.uk/mlas/details.aspx?&aff=11813&per=41&sel=1&ind=0&prv=0)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Orior on January 13, 2017, 10:31:47 PM
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir is head and shoulders above every other MLA in Sinn Fein and Stormont.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Take Your Points on January 14, 2017, 12:02:29 AM
Quote from: Orior on January 13, 2017, 10:31:47 PM
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir is head and shoulders above every other MLA in Sinn Fein and Stormont.

Really.  A Finance minister who has been failed to present a draft budget by the January before it was required and has spent the last few days doing anything but getting the figures on the table so that the budget process could begin.  Too busy releasing press statements via Sinn Fein about taking legal advice on lawyers being able to speak Irish in court and about artwork.  No word about his promise to forensically analyse Hamilton's proposed regulation on reducing the RHI costs, is it a worthwhile plan or just a sticking plaster.  What did he do about RHI from taking office in May 2016 until the BBC really lit the fire under Stormont?  Where were the financial controls on department spending, e.g. Givan was allowed to spend £98k more than the £200k he had been given to spend on marching band instruments, not just Givan to blame. What penalties were in place?  This is only one example of massive overspends without control and the RHI waste was allowed to run at £85k a day since the executive came to power last May while schools and hospitals ran on empty.  Why did Finance dept borrow millions to make civil servants to be made redundant and then allow temp staff to be brought in at additional cost to make up for the staff who were leaving with overly generous redundancy packages when compared to the private sector where people were being laid off on a pittance? The waste has been sinful.  Imagine if the hundreds of millions spent on making civil servants redundant had been spent on infrastructure and all of the jobs that could have been created. 

Last night, he was put up against P Givan on BBC and never once questioned about his own failure to present a budget having postponed its delivery all along.  He was allowed to be a flat track bully in dealing with Givan who was a fool to appear on TV and do continual somersaults on his decisions. Anyone could have made Givan look like a complete fool in the current circumstances. 

He is a TV performer but where is the substance required to deliver on his role as finance minister, that is measured by having a draft budget out for consultation and examination and then ready for the new financial year.  It is measured by the control on expenditure across the departments, the prevention of waste and overspending at will by other ministers and the lack of a strategic plan fo investment, expenditure and accountability. 
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Dougal Maguire on January 14, 2017, 12:16:38 AM
You're wrong there chief. He did produce a budget and presented in to the Executive as he's required to do, before it goes to the Assembly. DUP wouldn't endorse it.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: ziggysego on January 14, 2017, 01:01:16 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 13, 2017, 08:59:53 PM
I think she was replaced by the now ex- candidate Phil Flanagan in FST.

She was reinstated as a candidate, along with Phil Flanagan, and won her seat. Didn't get a Department, which was a shame. Very good minister.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Dougal Maguire on January 14, 2017, 01:48:33 PM
No Zig she wasn't a very good Minister, she was an excellent Minister.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: armaghniac on January 14, 2017, 03:37:09 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 14, 2017, 01:48:33 PM
No Zig she wasn't a very good Minister, she was an excellent Minister.

That would be my view.
So either she doesn't toe the party line sufficiently or has some other reason (health/family?) for not wishing to have a top job.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Real Talk on January 14, 2017, 05:28:31 PM
For some reason she initially wasn't nominated to stand as a party candidate in the last ellection
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Avondhu star on January 14, 2017, 08:06:15 PM
Quote from: stew on January 13, 2017, 05:22:44 PM
Quote from: Keyboard Warrior on January 12, 2017, 11:56:35 AM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 12, 2017, 11:45:59 AM

Conor Murphy will be the next DFM. He's the best SF have, which projects very poorly.

My bet will be Michelle O'Neill. When you get past the snobbish sneers about the way she talks you find what she has to say is very articulate. Best SF have by a clear distance.

Michelle Gildernew is probably too republican for the shinners, by all accounts she did a great job in the agriculture sector.

"By all accounts" What part of the cows arse were you listening to?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: JoG2 on January 14, 2017, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 13, 2017, 06:43:04 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 13, 2017, 05:24:32 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 13, 2017, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on January 13, 2017, 02:43:34 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 13, 2017, 12:41:35 AM
[
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4114714/Martin-McGuinness-just-six-years-live-diagnosed-rare-life-threatening-genetic-disease.html

If it's in the Daily Mail then it must be true.

Why would anyone remotely connected with the GAA Board be reading/ quoting the Daily Mail?
Beggars belief.

Can't wait to hear what is wrong with it!!!



You have to be on the wind up!

Quote from: Gaffer on January 12, 2017, 10:15:32 PM

What I mean was , what was wrong with posting a link from the paper. The Nag boyo thinks anyone remotely connected with the GAA board should not be reading the Daily Mail. I read it , mostly for the sport but posted this because I thought it may be of interest considering the topic.

He is absolutely 100% right.  No right thinking individual should look near that poisonous rag,  never mind an Irish person.  It's mind blowing that paper has a readership on this island.  Have a word with yourself Gaffer
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: No wides on January 14, 2017, 09:31:56 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on January 14, 2017, 08:06:15 PM
Quote from: stew on January 13, 2017, 05:22:44 PM
Quote from: Keyboard Warrior on January 12, 2017, 11:56:35 AM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 12, 2017, 11:45:59 AM

Conor Murphy will be the next DFM. He's the best SF have, which projects very poorly.

My bet will be Michelle O'Neill. When you get past the snobbish sneers about the way she talks you find what she has to say is very articulate. Best SF have by a clear distance.

Michelle Gildernew is probably too republican for the shinners, by all accounts she did a great job in the agriculture sector.

"By all accounts" What part of the cows arse were you listening to?

Are you touring with this material. Did you forget Ollys password?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: HiMucker on January 14, 2017, 09:32:50 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 14, 2017, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 13, 2017, 06:43:04 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 13, 2017, 05:24:32 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 13, 2017, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on January 13, 2017, 02:43:34 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 13, 2017, 12:41:35 AM
[
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4114714/Martin-McGuinness-just-six-years-live-diagnosed-rare-life-threatening-genetic-disease.html

If it's in the Daily Mail then it must be true.

Why would anyone remotely connected with the GAA Board be reading/ quoting the Daily Mail?
Beggars belief.

Can't wait to hear what is wrong with it!!!



You have to be on the wind up!

Quote from: Gaffer on January 12, 2017, 10:15:32 PM

What I mean was , what was wrong with posting a link from the paper. The Nag boyo thinks anyone remotely connected with the GAA board should not be reading the Daily Mail. I read it , mostly for the sport but posted this because I thought it may be of interest considering the topic.

He is absolutely 100% right.  No right thinking individual should look near that poisonous rag,  never mind an Irish person.  It's mind blowing that paper has a readership on this island.  Have a word with yourself Gaffer
100%.  I am no way upcasting, never mind some of the shite they print now, but the dailymail printed some of the most heinous anti irish articles and headlines over the years.  Anything printed or quoted from them regarding ireland should be taken with a huge pinch of salt.  Now any Irishman made aware of the fact and still chooses to buy these rags definitely needs to have a word with themselves.  Still shocked tickle supports the irish star.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Gaffer on January 14, 2017, 11:47:59 PM
Can I watch the BBC/ ITN news then? 😛😛😛😛

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Gaffer on January 15, 2017, 12:02:31 AM
Some great Irishmen on this forum. They ll get us a United Ireland😀😀😀😀😀
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: give her dixie on January 16, 2017, 12:50:32 PM
Quote from: AQMP on January 16, 2017, 12:39:50 PM
Michelle O'Neill doing the talking for SF today in the Assembly.

If I was a betting man, I would put money on her to take over from McGuinness.

The only thing that would stop her is if her name was involved in this RHI debatable.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Gaffer on January 16, 2017, 05:06:52 PM
My money would be on Conor Murphy
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Boycey on January 16, 2017, 05:23:15 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 16, 2017, 05:06:52 PM
My money would be on Conor Murphy

I can't put my hands on the original piece in the Indo but would this not make life difficult for Murphy

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/familys-fury-that-conor-murphy-may-replace-mcguinness-35367062.html

Edit: original article http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/parents-of-man-beaten-to-death-by-ira-will-be-utterly-disgusted-if-murphy-replaces-mcguinness-35367166.html
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: lynchbhoy on January 16, 2017, 06:43:11 PM
Quote from: Boycey on January 16, 2017, 05:23:15 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 16, 2017, 05:06:52 PM
My money would be on Conor Murphy

I can't put my hands on the original piece in the Indo but would this not make life difficult for Murphy

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/familys-fury-that-conor-murphy-may-replace-mcguinness-35367062.html

Edit: original article http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/parents-of-man-beaten-to-death-by-ira-will-be-utterly-disgusted-if-murphy-replaces-mcguinness-35367166.html
poor grieving parents

but that's fcuk all to do with Murphy

he has gone off the radar a bit in recent years but id have thought 10 years ago he was a future leader of sf
v good from the bit I saw of him back then

quinn being killed is nothing to do with Murphy so has no resonance here
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: stew on January 17, 2017, 09:46:24 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on January 14, 2017, 08:06:15 PM
Quote from: stew on January 13, 2017, 05:22:44 PM
Quote from: Keyboard Warrior on January 12, 2017, 11:56:35 AM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 12, 2017, 11:45:59 AM

Conor Murphy will be the next DFM. He's the best SF have, which projects very poorly.

My bet will be Michelle O'Neill. When you get past the snobbish sneers about the way she talks you find what she has to say is very articulate. Best SF have by a clear distance.

Michelle Gildernew is probably too republican for the shinners, by all accounts she did a great job in the agriculture sector.

"By all accounts" What part of the cows arse were you listening to?

The part that spat you out its hole newbie!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Avondhu star on January 17, 2017, 09:53:44 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 16, 2017, 06:43:11 PM
Quote from: Boycey on January 16, 2017, 05:23:15 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 16, 2017, 05:06:52 PM
My money would be on Conor Murphy

I can't put my hands on the original piece in the Indo but would this not make life difficult for Murphy

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/familys-fury-that-conor-murphy-may-replace-mcguinness-35367062.html

Edit: original article http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/parents-of-man-beaten-to-death-by-ira-will-be-utterly-disgusted-if-murphy-replaces-mcguinness-35367166.html
poor grieving parents

but that's fcuk all to do with Murphy

he has gone off the radar a bit in recent years but id have thought 10 years ago he was a future leader of sf
v good from the bit I saw of him back then

quinn being killed is nothing to do with Murphy so has no resonance here

How do you know that? Murphy has the personality of a box of Weetabix. O Neill is more in touch with the grassroots and can keep Belfast on side
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: gallsman on January 19, 2017, 06:07:46 PM
McGuinness formally quits politics. A titan of Irish history.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Rossfan on January 19, 2017, 06:25:41 PM
He certainly lived through interesting times.
Best wishes and hope he gets better health wise.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Syferus on January 19, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
What was the nonsense about him not quitting because of the illness? I suppose it's consistent with SF that you lie going out the door too.

McGuiness, like Paisley, saw some sense at the end. Doesn't wash away the blood on his hands either, but at least he was more honest about his involvement than Adams.

Sad that his last act was to leave the north in its biggest shambles in a decade or more.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: podge on January 19, 2017, 07:21:03 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
What was the nonsense about him not quitting because of the illness? I suppose it's consistent with SF that you lie going out the door too.

McGuiness, like Paisley, saw some sense at the end. Doesn't wash away the blood on his hands either, but at least he was more honest about his involvement than Adams.

Sad that his last act was to leave the north in its biggest shambles in a decade or more.

Where was that said?  he has made it quite clear it he was not standing again because of illness. 

He had said that quitting as deputy first minister wasn't because of his illness which I assume is still the case.  2 different things
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: illdecide on January 19, 2017, 07:29:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
What was the nonsense about him not quitting because of the illness? I suppose it's consistent with SF that you lie going out the door too.

McGuiness, like Paisley, saw some sense at the end. Doesn't wash away the blood on his hands either, but at least he was more honest about his involvement than Adams.

Sad that his last act was to leave the north in its biggest shambles in a decade or more.

Is that you Arlene?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: imtommygunn on January 19, 2017, 07:56:42 PM
It is no bigger a shambles than it ever has been. It's just that more people realise it now.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Syferus on January 19, 2017, 07:56:57 PM
Quote from: podge on January 19, 2017, 07:21:03 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
What was the nonsense about him not quitting because of the illness? I suppose it's consistent with SF that you lie going out the door too.

McGuiness, like Paisley, saw some sense at the end. Doesn't wash away the blood on his hands either, but at least he was more honest about his involvement than Adams.

Sad that his last act was to leave the north in its biggest shambles in a decade or more.

Where was that said?  he has made it quite clear it he was not standing again because of illness. 

He had said that quitting as deputy first minister wasn't because of his illness which I assume is still the case.  2 different things

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/martin-mcguinness-denies-health-behind-9592966

Just in the national media. Your second paragraph was my point. Clearly it contributed to his decision to bring the whole roadshow down and it would take the usual SF mental gymnastics to think differently.

I don't wish the man ill in his health battle but he was a noteable figure in Irish history, not a force for good.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 19, 2017, 08:02:30 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2017, 07:56:57 PM
Quote from: podge on January 19, 2017, 07:21:03 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
What was the nonsense about him not quitting because of the illness? I suppose it's consistent with SF that you lie going out the door too.

McGuiness, like Paisley, saw some sense at the end. Doesn't wash away the blood on his hands either, but at least he was more honest about his involvement than Adams.

Sad that his last act was to leave the north in its biggest shambles in a decade or more.

Where was that said?  he has made it quite clear it he was not standing again because of illness. 

He had said that quitting as deputy first minister wasn't because of his illness which I assume is still the case.  2 different things

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/martin-mcguinness-denies-health-behind-9592966

Just in the national media. Your second paragraph was my point. Clearly it contributed to his decision to bring the whole roadshow down and it would take the usual SF mental gymnastics to think differently.

I don't wish the man ill in his health battle but he was a noteable figure in Irish history, not a force for good.
Based on what criteria?
The Brits were trying to get the unionists to cop on since the early 70s. The Northern Ireland act of 1974 included a Constitutional Convention to discuss power sharing. the Unionists refused point blank. It took them 24 years to accept the inevitable. A couple of thousand  people died in the meantime
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Syferus on January 19, 2017, 08:08:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 19, 2017, 08:02:30 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2017, 07:56:57 PM
Quote from: podge on January 19, 2017, 07:21:03 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
What was the nonsense about him not quitting because of the illness? I suppose it's consistent with SF that you lie going out the door too.

McGuiness, like Paisley, saw some sense at the end. Doesn't wash away the blood on his hands either, but at least he was more honest about his involvement than Adams.

Sad that his last act was to leave the north in its biggest shambles in a decade or more.

Where was that said?  he has made it quite clear it he was not standing again because of illness. 

He had said that quitting as deputy first minister wasn't because of his illness which I assume is still the case.  2 different things

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/martin-mcguinness-denies-health-behind-9592966

Just in the national media. Your second paragraph was my point. Clearly it contributed to his decision to bring the whole roadshow down and it would take the usual SF mental gymnastics to think differently.

I don't wish the man ill in his health battle but he was a noteable figure in Irish history, not a force for good.
Based on what criteria?
The Brits were trying to get the unionists to cop on since the early 70s. The Northern Ireland act of 1974 included a Constitutional Convention to discuss power sharing. the Unionists refused point blank. It took them 24 years to accept the inevitable. A couple of thousand  people died in the meantime

Nationalist, unionist, SF, DUP. None are or have been forces for good.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: RealSpiritof98 on January 19, 2017, 08:09:50 PM
Pop shots from your chair, Martin McGuinness will go down in history as a game changer and a man of peace. If only you had 5 minutes in his presence. Thank you Martin on behalf of my children on turning this place around. I myself have become disillusioned with Sinn fein 2.0 but McGuinness always had peace for this land on his agenda.

People have short memories if they think this latest scandal is on a par with the past. The simple truth is the protestant state for a  Protestant people is no more. Thank God.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: RealSpiritof98 on January 19, 2017, 08:11:07 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 19, 2017, 07:56:42 PM
It is no bigger a shambles than it ever has been. It's just that more people realise it now.

What a f**king stupid comment.

Where you searched 3 times by foot soldiers on the way home from football last night?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: StGallsGAA on January 19, 2017, 08:28:52 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
What was the nonsense about him not quitting because of the illness? I suppose it's consistent with SF that you lie going out the door too.

McGuiness, like Paisley, saw some sense at the end. Doesn't wash away the blood on his hands either, but at least he was more honest about his involvement than Adams.

Sad that his last act was to leave the north in its biggest shambles in a decade or more.

His last act was to expose the DUP to an election just when they thought their wholesale fraud at the expense of the NI tax-payer would be shoved under the carpet for a couple of years at least.   They are now throwing Special Advisers under the bus in an attempt to get Arlene distanced from the corruption.   Good work Martin.  They are squirming like hell.   The fat bitch's wee beady eyes were flitting all over the place as she bumbled through her lines trying to cover up the reason for his resignation on TV tonight. Even Dodds was feeling the awkwardness of her botch job. 

 
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: foxcommander on January 19, 2017, 08:43:18 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2017, 07:56:57 PM
I don't wish the man ill in his health battle but he was a noteable figure in Irish history, not a force for good.

Do you know him personally or are you spouting shite based on what the media have told you?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Rossfan on January 19, 2017, 08:57:22 PM
Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on January 19, 2017, 08:09:50 PM
The simple truth is the protestant state for a  Protestant people is no more. Thank God.
The DUPes were making a brave bid to re establish it over the last 6 months or so.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 19, 2017, 09:23:20 PM
Without the peace process there would be no puke football

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: balladmaker on January 19, 2017, 09:42:23 PM
Martin McGuinness is a class act and history will record his full achievements.  I'm happy that I got the chance to thank him personally in 2016, a more modest and warm individual you won't meet.  He changed the place I live in for the better, my children are growing up in a far better place than I did, Unionist domination is no more, and Martin McGuinness played a major role in making all of that happen.  May he have many happy years of retirement.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Samforever on January 19, 2017, 11:41:26 PM
Incredible tribute paid on "The View" to Martin McGuinness by Ian Paisley (jnr). Never for one minute thought that he had that amount of warmth.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Minder on January 19, 2017, 11:43:24 PM
Quote from: Samforever on January 19, 2017, 11:41:26 PM
Incredible tribute paid on "The View" to Martin McGuinness by Ian Paisley (jnr). Never for one minute thought that he had that amount of warmth.

As much putting the boot into the DUP as it was warmth for McGuinness I would have thought
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Take Your Points on January 19, 2017, 11:51:49 PM
Speaking on BBC NI's The View programme, Mr Paisley praised Mr McGuinness's contribution to the peace process.

"I want to say thank you.
"It is important that we actually do reflect on the fact that we would not be where we are in Northern Ireland, in terms of having stability, peace and the opportunity to rebuild our country, were it not for the work he did put in, especially with my father at the beginning of this long journey".
Sinn Féin's Conor Murphy told the programme that the late Rev Dr Ian Paisley and Mr McGuinness "were derided for the friendship they had, but people would like to see a few chuckles around Stormont today".
Mr Paisley agreed with Mr Murphy saying, "perhaps if we got back to some of that foundation work of building a proper relationship we could get out of the mess we are currently in."
He added: "I can say thank-you honestly and humbly and recognise the remarkable journey Martin McGuinness went on has not only saved lives, but has made the lives of countless people in Northern Ireland better because of the partnership government we worked on and put together."
"I wish him well in his retirement and hope he has time to get over his health issues and enjoy retirement time with his wife and family," he added.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: orangeman on January 19, 2017, 11:53:18 PM
Despite being very unpalatable even to a lot of republicans Mc Guinness took serious chances by reaching out to the other side. Meeting the queen, standing at Stormomt and calling irish men traitors etc were massive but he was prepared to stick his neck out for what he believed in.
The Paisley MC Guinness double act was quite remarkable in itself. He wasn't afraid and could argue his point with most.

He was in his early days described as " officer material " by the Brits and clearly was a great leader despite a chequered past.


Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Itchy on January 20, 2017, 12:02:04 AM
A great man.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 12:16:50 AM
Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on January 19, 2017, 08:09:50 PM
Pop shots from your chair, Martin McGuinness will go down in history as a game changer and a man of peace. If only you had 5 minutes in his presence. Thank you Martin on behalf of my children on turning this place around. I myself have become disillusioned with Sinn fein 2.0 but McGuinness always had peace for this land on his agenda.

People have short memories if they think this latest scandal is on a par with the past. The simple truth is the protestant state for a  Protestant people is no more. Thank God.

McGuiness will go down as Paisley did. A firebrand with blood on his hands who saw some modicum of sense as the light was already waning on his political life. Paisley at least left a stable government behind - McGuiness basically stuck a needle in the bouncing castle and ran off.

It really is amusing to see how SF figures are regarded in nationalist circles in the north versus how the rest of Ireland (catholic/secular Ireland) view of them, mainly because they're not burdened by the person being on 'their side'.

John Hume is a great man; under no objective viewing was Martin McGuinness.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on January 20, 2017, 12:18:22 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 12:16:50 AM
Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on January 19, 2017, 08:09:50 PM
Pop shots from your chair, Martin McGuinness will go down in history as a game changer and a man of peace. If only you had 5 minutes in his presence. Thank you Martin on behalf of my children on turning this place around. I myself have become disillusioned with Sinn fein 2.0 but McGuinness always had peace for this land on his agenda.

People have short memories if they think this latest scandal is on a par with the past. The simple truth is the protestant state for a  Protestant people is no more. Thank God.

McGuiness will go down as Paisley did. A firebrand with blood on his hands who saw some modicum of sense as the light was already waning on his political life. Paisley at least left a stable government behind - McGuiness basically stuck a needle in the bouncing castle and ran off.

It really is amusing to see how SF figures are regarded in nationalist circles in the north versus how the rest of Ireland (catholic/secular Ireland) have a very different view of them because they're not burdened by the person being on 'their side'.

John Hume is a great man; in no objective viewing is Martin McGuinness.

For balance sake, John Hume backed internment back in the 70s.

A spell under British rule in 1970 Occupied Ulster would have done you the world of good.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Dougal Maguire on January 20, 2017, 12:20:32 AM
Well said.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: dec on January 20, 2017, 02:36:11 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 20, 2017, 12:18:22 AM
For balance sake, John Hume backed internment back in the 70s.

Do you have any evidence of that?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: heganboy on January 20, 2017, 05:09:24 AM
its a bone of contention

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breakingnews/breakingnews_ukandireland/top-diplomat-thought-hume-wanted-return-of-internment-28508582.html (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breakingnews/breakingnews_ukandireland/top-diplomat-thought-hume-wanted-return-of-internment-28508582.html)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Tubberman on January 20, 2017, 06:38:11 AM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 20, 2017, 12:20:32 AM
Well said.

Is there any way that can be arranged, even now?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: HiMucker on January 20, 2017, 09:38:24 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 12:16:50 AM
Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on January 19, 2017, 08:09:50 PM
Pop shots from your chair, Martin McGuinness will go down in history as a game changer and a man of peace. If only you had 5 minutes in his presence. Thank you Martin on behalf of my children on turning this place around. I myself have become disillusioned with Sinn fein 2.0 but McGuinness always had peace for this land on his agenda.

People have short memories if they think this latest scandal is on a par with the past. The simple truth is the protestant state for a  Protestant people is no more. Thank God.

McGuiness will go down as Paisley did. A firebrand with blood on his hands who saw some modicum of sense as the light was already waning on his political life. Paisley at least left a stable government behind - McGuiness basically stuck a needle in the bouncing castle and ran off.

It really is amusing to see how SF figures are regarded in nationalist circles in the north versus how the rest of Ireland (catholic/secular Ireland) view of them, mainly because they're not burdened by the person being on 'their side'.

John Hume is a great man; under no objective viewing was Martin McGuinness.
Tells us Syferus for a laugh, other than Hume what other persons do Nationalists in the North have to thank for helping them with their plight?  You know people who helped them achieve small things, like equal opportunity for employment, voting rights, equal rights for housing.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 09:50:47 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
What was the nonsense about him not quitting because of the illness? I suppose it's consistent with SF that you lie going out the door too.

McGuiness, like Paisley, saw some sense at the end. Doesn't wash away the blood on his hands either, but at least he was more honest about his involvement than Adams.

Sad that his last act was to leave the north in its biggest shambles in a decade or more.
He said that his illness was not the motivating factor in his resignation, that was the RHI scandal, keep up please.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Walter Cronc on January 20, 2017, 09:53:45 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 12:16:50 AM
Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on January 19, 2017, 08:09:50 PM
Pop shots from your chair, Martin McGuinness will go down in history as a game changer and a man of peace. If only you had 5 minutes in his presence. Thank you Martin on behalf of my children on turning this place around. I myself have become disillusioned with Sinn fein 2.0 but McGuinness always had peace for this land on his agenda.

People have short memories if they think this latest scandal is on a par with the past. The simple truth is the protestant state for a  Protestant people is no more. Thank God.

McGuiness will go down as Paisley did. A firebrand with blood on his hands who saw some modicum of sense as the light was already waning on his political life. Paisley at least left a stable government behind - McGuiness basically stuck a needle in the bouncing castle and ran off.

It really is amusing to see how SF figures are regarded in nationalist circles in the north versus how the rest of Ireland (catholic/secular Ireland) view of them, mainly because they're not burdened by the person being on 'their side'.

John Hume is a great man; under no objective viewing was Martin McGuinness.

You are some clown Syf...back to your Roscommon bog!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 09:56:14 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 12:16:50 AM
Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on January 19, 2017, 08:09:50 PM
Pop shots from your chair, Martin McGuinness will go down in history as a game changer and a man of peace. If only you had 5 minutes in his presence. Thank you Martin on behalf of my children on turning this place around. I myself have become disillusioned with Sinn fein 2.0 but McGuinness always had peace for this land on his agenda.

People have short memories if they think this latest scandal is on a par with the past. The simple truth is the protestant state for a  Protestant people is no more. Thank God.

McGuiness will go down as Paisley did. A firebrand with blood on his hands who saw some modicum of sense as the light was already waning on his political life. Paisley at least left a stable government behind - McGuiness basically stuck a needle in the bouncing castle and ran off.

It really is amusing to see how SF figures are regarded in nationalist circles in the north versus how the rest of Ireland (catholic/secular Ireland) view of them, mainly because they're not burdened by the person being on 'their side'.

John Hume is a great man; under no objective viewing was Martin McGuinness.
Cop on. McGuinness and Adams from the 70's were involved in trying to reach agreement with the Brits. Dennis Bradley on the BBC last night said and it wasn't picked up that Martin McGuinness intervened to save many many lives, very much unseen.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Keyser soze on January 20, 2017, 10:00:14 AM
Here Syferus can you not stick to other subjects that you know nothing about rather than polluting a serious thread with your sh*te. 
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 10:18:33 AM
Yet again any dissenting viewpoint on here is met with hostility.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Take Your Points on January 20, 2017, 10:22:52 AM
Quote from: heganboy on January 20, 2017, 05:09:24 AM
its a bone of contention

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breakingnews/breakingnews_ukandireland/top-diplomat-thought-hume-wanted-return-of-internment-28508582.html (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breakingnews/breakingnews_ukandireland/top-diplomat-thought-hume-wanted-return-of-internment-28508582.html)

Read the article. So, he didn't actually call for it, just an official surmising his thoughts to back up the actions of the government.  Typical of those who want to pull down others to raise themselves up.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: WT4E on January 20, 2017, 10:57:47 AM
Never thought I'd say it but fair play to Ian Jnr - Wwatever his motivation - I felt he was being honest and DUP majority could take a leaf out of his book and things would be a whole lot better.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: No wides on January 20, 2017, 11:00:36 AM
Quote from: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 10:18:33 AM
Yet again any dissenting viewpoint on here is met with hostility.

The same protagonists over and over, they should ask this to become a safe space where no one can disagree.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Keyser soze on January 20, 2017, 11:14:23 AM
Quote from: No wides on January 20, 2017, 11:00:36 AM
Quote from: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 10:18:33 AM
Yet again any dissenting viewpoint on here is met with hostility.

The same protagonists over and over, they should ask this to become a safe space where no one can disagree.

I don't suppose you two clowns are being ironic with these comments?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 11:33:38 AM
No. I have no problem with people expressing opinions contrary to my own. I certainly don't issue threats or tell people not to post like several posters here have done to me.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Franko on January 20, 2017, 11:35:36 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 12:16:50 AM
Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on January 19, 2017, 08:09:50 PM
Pop shots from your chair, Martin McGuinness will go down in history as a game changer and a man of peace. If only you had 5 minutes in his presence. Thank you Martin on behalf of my children on turning this place around. I myself have become disillusioned with Sinn fein 2.0 but McGuinness always had peace for this land on his agenda.

People have short memories if they think this latest scandal is on a par with the past. The simple truth is the protestant state for a  Protestant people is no more. Thank God.

McGuiness will go down as Paisley did. A firebrand with blood on his hands who saw some modicum of sense as the light was already waning on his political life. Paisley at least left a stable government behind - McGuiness basically stuck a needle in the bouncing castle and ran off.

It really is amusing to see how SF figures are regarded in nationalist circles in the north versus how the rest of Ireland (catholic/secular Ireland) view of them, mainly because they're not burdened by the person being on 'their side'.

John Hume is a great man; under no objective viewing was Martin McGuinness.

How telling this is.  Syferus finally admits what most northern Nationalists knew for years.  That a lot of our 26 county 'brethren', never mind not actively supporting their fellow countrymen, are not even on "our side".  The Rossie lads sold us out, pulled up the ladder and bravely ran off into the sunset.

At least he's finally admitted it.  Others try to maintain a laughable noble facade.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Franko on January 20, 2017, 11:36:27 AM
Quote from: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 11:33:38 AM
No. I have no problem with people expressing opinions contrary to my own. I certainly don't issue threats or tell people not to post like several posters here have done to me.

Cry me a river.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: NAG1 on January 20, 2017, 11:58:11 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.

Bit of an attempt to rewrite history there Syferus.

I think your time scales of cause and effect between Paisley and MMcG are slightly off there, but why let that get in the way of your anti-northern agenda.

Easy to desensitise yourself from the situation when looking in from a far and cherry picking the bits that you want to acknowledge.

Not going to get drawn into a wind up argument which you seem to want, safe in the knowledge that no one is arguing that MMcG's past didnt happen, it was his drive to move from that position to a place where catholics/ nationalist/ republicans are no longer second class citizens and can live in a mainly peaceful society, that I will give him credit for.

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: johnneycool on January 20, 2017, 12:03:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 12:16:50 AM
Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on January 19, 2017, 08:09:50 PM
Pop shots from your chair, Martin McGuinness will go down in history as a game changer and a man of peace. If only you had 5 minutes in his presence. Thank you Martin on behalf of my children on turning this place around. I myself have become disillusioned with Sinn fein 2.0 but McGuinness always had peace for this land on his agenda.

People have short memories if they think this latest scandal is on a par with the past. The simple truth is the protestant state for a  Protestant people is no more. Thank God.

McGuiness will go down as Paisley did. A firebrand with blood on his hands who saw some modicum of sense as the light was already waning on his political life. Paisley at least left a stable government behind - McGuiness basically stuck a needle in the bouncing castle and ran off.

It really is amusing to see how SF figures are regarded in nationalist circles in the north versus how the rest of Ireland (catholic/secular Ireland) view of them, mainly because they're not burdened by the person being on 'their side'.

John Hume is a great man; under no objective viewing was Martin McGuinness.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: tiempo on January 20, 2017, 12:04:08 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on January 20, 2017, 11:58:11 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.

Bit of an attempt to rewrite history there Syferus.

I think your time scales of cause and effect between Paisley and MMcG are slightly off there, but why let that get in the way of your anti-northern agenda.

Easy to desensitise yourself from the situation when looking in from a far and cherry picking the bits that you want to acknowledge.

Not going to get drawn into a wind up argument which you seem to want, safe in the knowledge that no one is arguing that MMcG's past didnt happen, it was his drive to move from that position to a place where catholics/ nationalist/ republicans are no longer second class citizens and can live in a mainly peaceful society, that I will give him credit for.

There is a clientele in the shires of Roscommon that are unable to address simple questions due to the effects of living in a demilitrised zone for quislings. Supine antics.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Rossfan on January 20, 2017, 12:23:17 PM
Syferus is a silly young gobdaw taking his views from British media outlets.
He's still entitled to his opinion and no doubt when he reaches 25 and his frontal lobes develops he might just learn that the world isn't one dimensional.
And by Jases in Derry it certainly wasn't from 1968 onwards.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 12:25:08 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 20, 2017, 11:36:27 AM
Quote from: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 11:33:38 AM
No. I have no problem with people expressing opinions contrary to my own. I certainly don't issue threats or tell people not to post like several posters here have done to me.

Cry me a river.


No
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 20, 2017, 12:23:17 PM
Syferus is a silly young gobdaw taking his views from British media outlets.
He's still entitled to his opinion and no doubt when he reaches 25 and his frontal lobes develops he might just learn that the world isn't one dimensional.
And by Jases in Derry it certainly wasn't from 1968 onwards.

I'll tell Michael Mulligan you're still genuflecting to your photo of Comrade McGuiness (does anyone actually believe he severed ties with the Provos in 1974 like he says he did?) in the mornings next time I'm in. He'll be well pleased.

The rest of us still see McGuinness for what he is. A divisive figure that did more to drive communities apart than bring them together.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: foxcommander on January 20, 2017, 01:36:13 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 01:24:12 PM
The rest of us still see McGuinness for what he is. A divisive figure that did more to drive communities apart than bring them together.

And your experiences of Derry and NI in the 1960's and 70's give you the perfect basis for your opinion.
Keep going, your revision of history is very informative.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: screenexile on January 20, 2017, 02:05:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 20, 2017, 12:23:17 PM
Syferus is a silly young gobdaw taking his views from British media outlets.
He's still entitled to his opinion and no doubt when he reaches 25 and his frontal lobes develops he might just learn that the world isn't one dimensional.
And by Jases in Derry it certainly wasn't from 1968 onwards.

I'll tell Michael Mulligan you're still genuflecting to your photo of Comrade McGuiness (does anyone actually believe he severed ties with the Provos in 1974 like he says he did?) in the mornings next time I'm in. He'll be well pleased.

The rest of us still see McGuinness for what he is. A divisive figure that did more to drive communities apart than bring them together.

Well if Ian Paisely Jr is able to give McGuinness such a fitting tribute and you're coming out with that nonsense your level of bitterness would seem to be of epic proportions. . . especially for someone who doesn't even live in the North!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: JoG2 on January 20, 2017, 02:11:08 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 20, 2017, 12:23:17 PM
Syferus is a silly young gobdaw taking his views from British media outlets.
He's still entitled to his opinion and no doubt when he reaches 25 and his frontal lobes develops he might just learn that the world isn't one dimensional.
And by Jases in Derry it certainly wasn't from 1968 onwards.

I'll tell Michael Mulligan you're still genuflecting to your photo of Comrade McGuiness (does anyone actually believe he severed ties with the Provos in 1974 like he says he did?) in the mornings next time I'm in. He'll be well pleased.

The rest of us still see McGuinness for what he is. A divisive figure that did more to drive communities apart than bring them together.

Who's 'us' ?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Franko on January 20, 2017, 02:13:04 PM
Quote from: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 12:25:08 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 20, 2017, 11:36:27 AM
Quote from: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 11:33:38 AM
No. I have no problem with people expressing opinions contrary to my own. I certainly don't issue threats or tell people not to post like several posters here have done to me.

Cry me a river.


No

It is my opinion that you are an idiot.  You are quite entitled to reply with your opinion, but most people will frame in the context of you being an idiot.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: leenie on January 20, 2017, 02:14:12 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 20, 2017, 02:11:08 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 20, 2017, 12:23:17 PM
Syferus is a silly young gobdaw taking his views from British media outlets.
He's still entitled to his opinion and no doubt when he reaches 25 and his frontal lobes develops he might just learn that the world isn't one dimensional.
And by Jases in Derry it certainly wasn't from 1968 onwards.

I'll tell Michael Mulligan you're still genuflecting to your photo of Comrade McGuiness (does anyone actually believe he severed ties with the Provos in 1974 like he says he did?) in the mornings next time I'm in. He'll be well pleased.

The rest of us still see McGuinness for what he is. A divisive figure that did more to drive communities apart than bring them together.

Who's 'us' ?


I was wondering the same
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 02:17:56 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 20, 2017, 02:13:04 PM
Quote from: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 12:25:08 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 20, 2017, 11:36:27 AM
Quote from: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 11:33:38 AM
No. I have no problem with people expressing opinions contrary to my own. I certainly don't issue threats or tell people not to post like several posters here have done to me.

Cry me a river.


No

It is my opinion that you are an idiot.  You are quite entitled to reply with your opinion, but most people will frame in the context of you being an idiot.

More insults. Disappointing but not at all surprising.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Dire Ear on January 20, 2017, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.
Well said
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Franko on January 20, 2017, 02:26:07 PM
Quote from: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 02:17:56 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 20, 2017, 02:13:04 PM
Quote from: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 12:25:08 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 20, 2017, 11:36:27 AM
Quote from: The Stallion on January 20, 2017, 11:33:38 AM
No. I have no problem with people expressing opinions contrary to my own. I certainly don't issue threats or tell people not to post like several posters here have done to me.

Cry me a river.


No

It is my opinion that you are an idiot.  You are quite entitled to reply with your opinion, but most people will frame in the context of you being an idiot.

More insults. Disappointing but not at all surprising.

Sorry, it's just my opinion.  It may or may not be contrary to yours but I appreciate you defending my right to express it.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 02:26:22 PM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/martin-mcguinness-refuses-to-condemn-ira-human-bomb-attack-in-1990-dubbed-the-work-of-satan-by-catholic-bishop-29733940.html

McGuiness. Three years ago. As simple and as immovable a repudiation of the responses above as you could find. Even in his peacemaker persona the mask slipped far too easily for the comfort of everyone in the south or with a conscience, even.

But don't let facts get in the way of the nonsense. They rarely have when it comes to anything in the north.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: leenie on January 20, 2017, 02:29:12 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 02:26:22 PM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/martin-mcguinness-refuses-to-condemn-ira-human-bomb-attack-in-1990-dubbed-the-work-of-satan-by-catholic-bishop-29733940.html

McGuiness. Three years ago. As simple and as immovable a repudiation of the responses as you could find.

But don't let facts get in the way of the nonsense. They rarely have when it comes to anything in the north.

numpty
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: NAG1 on January 20, 2017, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 02:26:22 PM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/martin-mcguinness-refuses-to-condemn-ira-human-bomb-attack-in-1990-dubbed-the-work-of-satan-by-catholic-bishop-29733940.html

McGuiness. Three years ago. As simple and as immovable a repudiation of the responses above as you could find. Even in his peacemaker persona the mask slipped far too easily for the comfort of everyone in the south or with a conscience, even.

But don't let facts get in the way of the nonsense. They rarely have when it comes to anything in the north.

Think your line there sums it up nicely, its that comfort that allows you to spout your Daily Mail version of northern politics - lack of understanding or any comprehension of how things transpired. Timelines out and simple understanding of situations completely missing but hey why let that stop you.

The fact that MMcG brought the republican movement with him along this journey to where they are now is more of a tribute to the type of man he was. Never denied his background and never ever going to turn his back on those who he was alongside be that in the IRA or SF.

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: haranguerer on January 20, 2017, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 02:26:22 PM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/martin-mcguinness-refuses-to-condemn-ira-human-bomb-attack-in-1990-dubbed-the-work-of-satan-by-catholic-bishop-29733940.html

McGuiness. Three years ago. As simple and as immovable a repudiation of the responses above as you could find. Even in his peacemaker persona the mask slipped far too easily for the comfort of everyone in the south or with a conscience, even.

But don't let facts get in the way of the nonsense. They rarely have when it comes to anything in the north.

Those in the south who are like you have to dress it up as you do, because the thought that those in the north are exactly like you, and, but for the grace of god, are you, becomes too much to bear when you think about about what was done to help. Northern nationalists were on their own at the stroke of a pen - given how that state was administered thereafter, conflict was inevitable - and its rarely pretty. So watch injustice inflicted on your countrymen and do nothing, then give out when someone does do something. Admirable indeed.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 20, 2017, 05:54:04 PM
Just saw Ian Og's tribute to Marty. Impressive.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Wildweasel74 on January 20, 2017, 07:01:10 PM
Seen ruth dudley edwards piece to Martin mcguinness! Impressive to, in the opposite way! She sure she got an irish bckground! The term jackeen was invented for people like her!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on January 20, 2017, 07:01:21 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

Great post.

Some times you've just got to stand up for yourself.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: JoG2 on January 20, 2017, 07:36:37 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on January 20, 2017, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 02:26:22 PM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/martin-mcguinness-refuses-to-condemn-ira-human-bomb-attack-in-1990-dubbed-the-work-of-satan-by-catholic-bishop-29733940.html

McGuiness. Three years ago. As simple and as immovable a repudiation of the responses above as you could find. Even in his peacemaker persona the mask slipped far too easily for the comfort of everyone in the south or with a conscience, even.

But don't let facts get in the way of the nonsense. They rarely have when it comes to anything in the north.

Those in the south who are like you have to dress it up as you do, because the thought that those in the north are exactly like you, and, but for the grace of god, are you, becomes too much to bear when you think about about what was done to help. Northern nationalists were on their own at the stroke of a pen - given how that state was administered thereafter, conflict was inevitable - and its rarely pretty. So watch injustice inflicted on your countrymen and do nothing, then give out when someone does do something. Admirable indeed.

Super post.  The likes of Syferus,  and those other folk I had the misfortune of reading on the journal.ie comments section (I should know better)  re McGuinness typifies how the Internet has given a voice to folk who spout on various subjects without having a feckin clue. 
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Bazil Douglas on January 21, 2017, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

A very constructive post that shows an understanding of the Northern situation.
On the other hand we have syferus being as articulate as Jolene Bunting.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: vallankumous on January 21, 2017, 07:48:53 AM
Quote from: AQMP on January 20, 2017, 12:45:25 PM

It still isn't in the North.  Unfortunately we don't live in anything approaching a "normal" society.  Two points McGuinness made last night were significant.  1) When was the last time you heard the DUP talk about "reconciliation" and 2) the anecdote about attending the Euro soccer matches. - These show the way a huge swathe of Unionism regards Irishness.

That's nonsense. If that was the case there wouldn't be so much concern about normal things. Health, education, housing, social welfare are the main concerns of people in the north across all sections. These topics are of less importance on an online forum as there is no discussion in agreement. There is only discussion in argument online.
Corruption in the political system has brought it down. An election will bring it back up. This is normal.

Irish Nationalism and British Nationalism are normal. It's ok to be either as long as it's done peacefully. I've no time for Unionism, FG have no time for Nationalism, the Tories have no time for SCottish Nationalism and the BNP have only time for English nationalism. Normal.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: PW Nally on January 21, 2017, 08:08:27 AM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on January 21, 2017, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

A very constructive post that shows an understanding of the Northern situation.
On the other hand we have syferus being as articulate as Jolene Bunting.
Great post Applesisapples.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 21, 2017, 10:35:06 AM
Jolene Bunting would do great work in Ballaghaderreen
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: OgraAnDun on January 21, 2017, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: PW Nally on January 21, 2017, 08:08:27 AM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on January 21, 2017, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

A very constructive post that shows an understanding of the Northern situation.
On the other hand we have syferus being as articulate as Jolene Bunting.
Great post Applesisapples.

I think that most under the age of 40 (or certainly 30) would lean towards SF, especially in the north.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 21, 2017, 12:01:36 PM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on January 21, 2017, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

A very constructive post that shows an understanding of the Northern situation.
On the other hand we have syferus being as articulate as Jolene Bunting.
Ah bejaysus, she can't be that bad. I never heard of her before now but if she's the daughter of Ronald Bunting, Paisley's lapdog, I'll owe poor syferus an apology.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Applesisapples on January 21, 2017, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on January 21, 2017, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: PW Nally on January 21, 2017, 08:08:27 AM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on January 21, 2017, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

A very constructive post that shows an understanding of the Northern situation.
On the other hand we have syferus being as articulate as Jolene Bunting.
Great post Applesisapples.

I think that most under the age of 40 (or certainly 30) would lean towards SF, especially in the north.
That may be so but I am alluding to a lack of personal experience of the north in the 60's and 70's. My Dad god rest him related stories of how neighbours who were B Specials took great delight in abusing their powers as an auxiliary police force, neighbours mind you not strangers. Every July a home up until the late early '80's the OO transported their lambegs 3 miles from the hall to bate them outside the chapel. Times have changed but the trouble can't be viewed in isolation or from the comfort of todays catholic middle class. Those from the south quick with the condemnation easily forget the blood on the hands of many of the founding fathers of the southern state.I have also stopped short of accusing our southern fellow countrymen of abandoning us, as I don't think they had much option. But I do believe their is a suppressed guilt in the southern mindset that they did so and are some how responsible for the trouble, hence the fervour to heap it all (blame) onto SF and the IRA.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Avondhu star on January 21, 2017, 04:19:13 PM
Do the people in the North really believe that the South ever had the military capacity to enter and take over the six counties? It would have led to two events. 1. The British would have come back and whipped the souths arse 2. The loyalists would have reacted with a fetocity that would have led to civil war. The facts are that up to joining the EEC Ireland was a economically backward country entirely dependant on the British market. We could hardly feed ourselves and certainly could not finance a military operation aimed at taking over the six counties and holding a million unionists against their will.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Hardy on January 21, 2017, 05:19:44 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 21, 2017, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on January 21, 2017, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: PW Nally on January 21, 2017, 08:08:27 AM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on January 21, 2017, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html (http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html)

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

A very constructive post that shows an understanding of the Northern situation.
On the other hand we have syferus being as articulate as Jolene Bunting.
Great post Applesisapples.

I think that most under the age of 40 (or certainly 30) would lean towards SF, especially in the north.
That may be so but I am alluding to a lack of personal experience of the north in the 60's and 70's. My Dad god rest him related stories of how neighbours who were B Specials took great delight in abusing their powers as an auxiliary police force, neighbours mind you not strangers. Every July a home up until the late early '80's the OO transported their lambegs 3 miles from the hall to bate them outside the chapel. Times have changed but the trouble can't be viewed in isolation or from the comfort of todays catholic middle class. Those from the south quick with the condemnation easily forget the blood on the hands of many of the founding fathers of the southern state.I have also stopped short of accusing our southern fellow countrymen of abandoning us, as I don't think they had much option. But I do believe their is a suppressed guilt in the southern mindset that they did so and are some how responsible for the trouble, hence the fervour to heap it all (blame) onto SF and the IRA.

Balderpoppytwaddle
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 21, 2017, 06:00:34 PM
The Southern media presented the north in a certain way for years in conjunction with the Irish govt. Shinners were not allowed to speak on telly. John Hume was beatified. Some outlets are worse than others. The Irish Independent is atrocious. Over the next 20 years there will be a clear nationalist majority in NI. And Sasana has just shot itself.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: lynchbhoy on January 21, 2017, 06:02:18 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.
excellent post Applesisapples
spot on.

funny how I heard Mc Guinness refer to the old set up as the apartheid state !!!

no one seems to be whinging about the use of that phase anymore!!
but that's what it was!!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Donagh on January 21, 2017, 06:14:43 PM
Definitely no guilt, 25 years of Section 31 censorship and the Stickie takeover at Montrose granted them absolution.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 21, 2017, 07:18:38 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/21/northern-ireland-an-uncertain-peace
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: foxcommander on January 21, 2017, 07:34:51 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 21, 2017, 03:46:39 PM
That may be so but I am alluding to a lack of personal experience of the north in the 60's and 70's. My Dad god rest him related stories of how neighbours who were B Specials took great delight in abusing their powers as an auxiliary police force, neighbours mind you not strangers. Every July a home up until the late early '80's the OO transported their lambegs 3 miles from the hall to bate them outside the chapel. Times have changed but the trouble can't be viewed in isolation or from the comfort of todays catholic middle class. Those from the south quick with the condemnation easily forget the blood on the hands of many of the founding fathers of the southern state.I have also stopped short of accusing our southern fellow countrymen of abandoning us, as I don't think they had much option. But I do believe their is a suppressed guilt in the southern mindset that they did so and are some how responsible for the trouble, hence the fervour to heap it all (blame) onto SF and the IRA.

I wouldn't. That's exactly what happened.

Northern Ireland might as well have been somewhere close to Papau New Guinea from the way freestaters used to talk about it.
You're bang on about the guilt though, it was the easier option for them to sacrifice their countrymen and pretend it wasn't happening.
It's why they were always very uncomfortable about talking about the north, just citing SF and the RA for being evil was the get-out clause every time, not the way they abdicated responsibility.

However it was disappointing that fellow GAA people held the same opinions.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 07:49:12 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on January 21, 2017, 07:34:51 PM

However it was disappointing that fellow GAA people held the same opinions.

Ricey spoke well on this before.

"Northern people have probably been a bit paranoid down the years. The Northern mindset is complicated because the Troubles probably made a lot of people feel like you are out on your own. You do fend for yourself. You do fight your own corner. There'd be a bit of everyone that kind of goes, 'Well no one likes us. They think of us as different. They don't count us as Irish.'

Army checkpoints
"We would definitely have had this idea that people in the south didn't really understand where we were coming from.
"I remember as a wee boy going to the Ulster final in 1989 between Tyrone and Donegal. Clones from my house is maybe an hour's drive but in 1989, you'd be leaving the house at 10 o'clock in the morning because crossing the border meant police and army checkpoints that took two or three hours to go through. And the same again that evening, meaning you weren't home until 11 at night.
"People in the south probably didn't realise what a struggle it was for us to just get playing GAA on the same level as them.But that was part of what made us into the people we were and it feeds into the mindset of a lot of people in the North. Part of us would have been thinking that we fought just to get playing Gaelic games and then when we arrived down to the south, the people who were meant to be the same as us didn't seem to understand what we were about.
"It wasn't as though we were expecting a welcome mat laid out for us but it was strange to feel as though we were different in some way. After a while, you just go, 'Right, if that's the way they see us, fair enough'. There wasn't outright hostility but I suppose the more competitive the football got, the more hostile the whole scene got . . . . But that's just sport really."
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 21, 2017, 08:27:06 PM
If you go back to the 70s the Northern Ireland Act that ended Stormont envisaged a role for the South and the Unionists killed it. In the 80s Thatcher was ultra reactionary compared to British policy which had been more open to the idea of a Southern input.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: heganboy on January 22, 2017, 06:10:56 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on January 21, 2017, 04:19:13 PM
Do the people in the North really believe that the South ever had the military capacity to enter and take over the six counties? It would have led to two events. 1. The British would have come back and whipped the souths arse 2. The loyalists would have reacted with a fetocity that would have led to civil war. The facts are that up to joining the EEC Ireland was a economically backward country entirely dependant on the British market. We could hardly feed ourselves and certainly could not finance a military operation aimed at taking over the six counties and holding a million unionists against their will.

Tell me more of these million unionists, and maybe mathematics or just counting. Counting would do it...
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: michaelg on January 22, 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on January 22, 2017, 08:21:26 AM
Quote from: michaelg on January 22, 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

Of course it was war, the Provos were an outlawed organisation, they did not have any powers to make arrests or put someone through the courts. The British enacted a shoot to kill policy on IRA volunteers and then lied about it.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 22, 2017, 09:01:36 AM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.
England is more tolerant than  settler colonial outfits in which one group is dominant and wants to hang on to that dominance by denying rights to other groups.There are 5 million people in prison in the US and the % imprisoned is highest in the black community. The US has a looming crisis over the rise in the Latino population and how whites feel about that.   NI would be more comparable to the US and Israel/Palestine .

NI is special because of its history as a colony
http://virtualmethodist.blogspot.ch/2009/09/coasters.html
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Gaffer on January 22, 2017, 10:54:20 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 22, 2017, 08:21:26 AM
Quote from: michaelg on January 22, 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

Of course it was war, the Provos were an outlawed organisation, they did not have any powers to make arrests or put someone through the courts. The British enacted a shoot to kill policy on IRA volunteers and then lied about it.

Did the Provos tell any lies do you think?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: StGallsGAA on January 22, 2017, 10:58:26 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 22, 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

Or type it either it seems....
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: lynchbhoy on January 22, 2017, 11:45:52 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.
You obv have a different perspective but round our way the republican militants did more to save and protect than the ruc did.... though that wasn't hard

not ideal but they did what was required. casualties of war were part and parcel of it as well as policing anti social elements within nationalist areas... plus the crown forces and loyalist persecution forces alliance.

absolutely form the republicans military actions the GFA was achieved.  nothing surer.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: lynchbhoy on January 22, 2017, 11:47:37 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 22, 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.
not liked but accepted round our way

war is war

it was a dirty war started off since plantation...

but war is never clean.

thankfully it's in past history now.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on January 22, 2017, 11:52:48 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 22, 2017, 10:54:20 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 22, 2017, 08:21:26 AM
Quote from: michaelg on January 22, 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

Of course it was war, the Provos were an outlawed organisation, they did not have any powers to make arrests or put someone through the courts. The British enacted a shoot to kill policy on IRA volunteers and then lied about it.

Did the Provos tell any lies do you think?

I'm sure they did but they were an outlawed organisation by the state.

The governors of the state meanwhile had no problem disregarding the justice system it had in place to deal with the Provos and exercised shoot to kill operations and then lied to the public and covered it up.

It was a war.

What did you think of Mandela?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Applesisapples on January 23, 2017, 09:03:21 AM
Quote from: Hardy on January 21, 2017, 05:19:44 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 21, 2017, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on January 21, 2017, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: PW Nally on January 21, 2017, 08:08:27 AM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on January 21, 2017, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html (http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html)

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

A very constructive post that shows an understanding of the Northern situation.
On the other hand we have syferus being as articulate as Jolene Bunting.
Great post Applesisapples.

I think that most under the age of 40 (or certainly 30) would lean towards SF, especially in the north.
That may be so but I am alluding to a lack of personal experience of the north in the 60's and 70's. My Dad god rest him related stories of how neighbours who were B Specials took great delight in abusing their powers as an auxiliary police force, neighbours mind you not strangers. Every July a home up until the late early '80's the OO transported their lambegs 3 miles from the hall to bate them outside the chapel. Times have changed but the trouble can't be viewed in isolation or from the comfort of todays catholic middle class. Those from the south quick with the condemnation easily forget the blood on the hands of many of the founding fathers of the southern state.I have also stopped short of accusing our southern fellow countrymen of abandoning us, as I don't think they had much option. But I do believe their is a suppressed guilt in the southern mindset that they did so and are some how responsible for the trouble, hence the fervour to heap it all (blame) onto SF and the IRA.

Balderpoppytwaddle
As opposed to the shite you are responsible for...twat.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: seafoid on January 23, 2017, 09:10:27 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 22, 2017, 11:52:48 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 22, 2017, 10:54:20 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 22, 2017, 08:21:26 AM
Quote from: michaelg on January 22, 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

Of course it was war, the Provos were an outlawed organisation, they did not have any powers to make arrests or put someone through the courts. The British enacted a shoot to kill policy on IRA volunteers and then lied about it.

Did the Provos tell any lies do you think?

I'm sure they did but they were an outlawed organisation by the state.

The governors of the state meanwhile had no problem disregarding the justice system it had in place to deal with the Provos and exercised shoot to kill operations and then lied to the public and covered it up.

It was a war.

What did you think of Mandela?
War has many losers . The kids of prisoners, the wives of the dead soldiers, the Dolours Prices
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: haveaharp on January 23, 2017, 09:34:58 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 22, 2017, 11:47:37 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 22, 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.
not liked but accepted round our way

war is war

it was a dirty war started off since plantation...

but war is never clean.

thankfully it's in past history now.

If it was war then the hunger strikers should have been given POW status, in the can't have your cake and eat it sense.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Gaffer on January 23, 2017, 12:42:47 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 22, 2017, 11:52:48 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on January 22, 2017, 10:54:20 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 22, 2017, 08:21:26 AM
Quote from: michaelg on January 22, 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

Of course it was war, the Provos were an outlawed organisation, they did not have any powers to make arrests or put someone through the courts. The British enacted a shoot to kill policy on IRA volunteers and then lied about it.

Did the Provos tell any lies do you think?

I'm sure they did but they were an outlawed organisation by the state.

The governors of the state meanwhile had no problem disregarding the justice system it had in place to deal with the Provos and exercised shoot to kill operations and then lied to the public and covered it up.

It was a war.

What did you think of Mandela?

You are sure they did!! I agree with you on that one. Quite a few fibs actually.

What's Mandela got to do with the Provis telling porkies?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Hardy on January 23, 2017, 01:08:15 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2017, 09:03:21 AM
Quote from: Hardy on January 21, 2017, 05:19:44 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 21, 2017, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on January 21, 2017, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: PW Nally on January 21, 2017, 08:08:27 AM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on January 21, 2017, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html (http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html)

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

A very constructive post that shows an understanding of the Northern situation.
On the other hand we have syferus being as articulate as Jolene Bunting.
Great post Applesisapples.

I think that most under the age of 40 (or certainly 30) would lean towards SF, especially in the north.
That may be so but I am alluding to a lack of personal experience of the north in the 60's and 70's. My Dad god rest him related stories of how neighbours who were B Specials took great delight in abusing their powers as an auxiliary police force, neighbours mind you not strangers. Every July a home up until the late early '80's the OO transported their lambegs 3 miles from the hall to bate them outside the chapel. Times have changed but the trouble can't be viewed in isolation or from the comfort of todays catholic middle class. Those from the south quick with the condemnation easily forget the blood on the hands of many of the founding fathers of the southern state.I have also stopped short of accusing our southern fellow countrymen of abandoning us, as I don't think they had much option. But I do believe their is a suppressed guilt in the southern mindset that they did so and are some how responsible for the trouble, hence the fervour to heap it all (blame) onto SF and the IRA.

Balderpoppytwaddle
As opposed to the shite you are responsible for...twat.

Calm down. Mostly you post sense. When you post nonsense, expect to get called on it. I did that (without calling you names). You posted something you said you believe about the part of the country where I live, that I know to be nonsense. As someone who has read here for years that I'm not entitled to comment on the North because of where I live, I find it ironic that I get abused the first time I point out a misconception in a comment from the North about my part of the country.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: AhNowRef on January 23, 2017, 01:09:29 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 02:26:22 PM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/martin-mcguinness-refuses-to-condemn-ira-human-bomb-attack-in-1990-dubbed-the-work-of-satan-by-catholic-bishop-29733940.html

McGuiness. Three years ago. As simple and as immovable a repudiation of the responses above as you could find. Even in his peacemaker persona the mask slipped far too easily for the comfort of everyone in the south or with a conscience, even.

But don't let facts get in the way of the nonsense. They rarely have when it comes to anything in the north.

Here Syphilis, are you Conor Cruise O'Brian & Ruth Dudley Edwards' love child or what  ... either way you'll an awful fool .. you just dont get it Im afraid .. sometimes people with zero experience of what they're talking "sh1te" about should really hold their tongues  ::)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: AhNowRef on January 23, 2017, 01:12:48 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on January 20, 2017, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 02:26:22 PM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/martin-mcguinness-refuses-to-condemn-ira-human-bomb-attack-in-1990-dubbed-the-work-of-satan-by-catholic-bishop-29733940.html

McGuiness. Three years ago. As simple and as immovable a repudiation of the responses above as you could find. Even in his peacemaker persona the mask slipped far too easily for the comfort of everyone in the south or with a conscience, even.

But don't let facts get in the way of the nonsense. They rarely have when it comes to anything in the north.

Those in the south who are like you have to dress it up as you do, because the thought that those in the north are exactly like you, and, but for the grace of god, are you, becomes too much to bear when you think about about what was done to help. Northern nationalists were on their own at the stroke of a pen - given how that state was administered thereafter, conflict was inevitable - and its rarely pretty. So watch injustice inflicted on your countrymen and do nothing, then give out when someone does do something. Admirable indeed.

Good way to put it indeed ...
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: No wides on January 23, 2017, 05:24:51 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2017, 09:03:21 AM
Quote from: Hardy on January 21, 2017, 05:19:44 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 21, 2017, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on January 21, 2017, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: PW Nally on January 21, 2017, 08:08:27 AM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on January 21, 2017, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html (http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html)

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

A very constructive post that shows an understanding of the Northern situation.
On the other hand we have syferus being as articulate as Jolene Bunting.
Great post Applesisapples.

I think that most under the age of 40 (or certainly 30) would lean towards SF, especially in the north.
That may be so but I am alluding to a lack of personal experience of the north in the 60's and 70's. My Dad god rest him related stories of how neighbours who were B Specials took great delight in abusing their powers as an auxiliary police force, neighbours mind you not strangers. Every July a home up until the late early '80's the OO transported their lambegs 3 miles from the hall to bate them outside the chapel. Times have changed but the trouble can't be viewed in isolation or from the comfort of todays catholic middle class. Those from the south quick with the condemnation easily forget the blood on the hands of many of the founding fathers of the southern state.I have also stopped short of accusing our southern fellow countrymen of abandoning us, as I don't think they had much option. But I do believe their is a suppressed guilt in the southern mindset that they did so and are some how responsible for the trouble, hence the fervour to heap it all (blame) onto SF and the IRA.

Balderpoppytwaddle
As opposed to the shite you are responsible for...twat.

Careful apples or he will block you. Hardy only likes to engage with the watsup group on here who think he is some sort of intellectual wit. 😁
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Orior on January 23, 2017, 05:36:33 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 22, 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

If it was not a war, then why do the british display pictures and artifacts from the six counties in the Imperial War Museum in London?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Applesisapples on January 24, 2017, 10:32:06 AM
Quote from: Hardy on January 23, 2017, 01:08:15 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2017, 09:03:21 AM
Quote from: Hardy on January 21, 2017, 05:19:44 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 21, 2017, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on January 21, 2017, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: PW Nally on January 21, 2017, 08:08:27 AM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on January 21, 2017, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html (http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html)

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

A very constructive post that shows an understanding of the Northern situation.
On the other hand we have syferus being as articulate as Jolene Bunting.
Great post Applesisapples.

I think that most under the age of 40 (or certainly 30) would lean towards SF, especially in the north.
That may be so but I am alluding to a lack of personal experience of the north in the 60's and 70's. My Dad god rest him related stories of how neighbours who were B Specials took great delight in abusing their powers as an auxiliary police force, neighbours mind you not strangers. Every July a home up until the late early '80's the OO transported their lambegs 3 miles from the hall to bate them outside the chapel. Times have changed but the trouble can't be viewed in isolation or from the comfort of todays catholic middle class. Those from the south quick with the condemnation easily forget the blood on the hands of many of the founding fathers of the southern state.I have also stopped short of accusing our southern fellow countrymen of abandoning us, as I don't think they had much option. But I do believe their is a suppressed guilt in the southern mindset that they did so and are some how responsible for the trouble, hence the fervour to heap it all (blame) onto SF and the IRA.

Balderpoppytwaddle
As opposed to the shite you are responsible for...twat.

Calm down. Mostly you post sense. When you post nonsense, expect to get called on it. I did that (without calling you names). You posted something you said you believe about the part of the country where I live, that I know to be nonsense. As someone who has read here for years that I'm not entitled to comment on the North because of where I live, I find it ironic that I get abused the first time I point out a misconception in a comment from the North about my part of the country.
Ok maybe a bit oversensitive on my part. I have lived and worked in the south and with southerners and it is a sense I get, if it is a suppressed condition you wouldn't necessarily be aware. And it should not be dismissed out of hand. I do firmly believe that people are conditioned by their folk memory's or experiences. The famine, partition etc definitely impact on how Irish people view their position. The siege mentality of unionism is another example.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Applesisapples on January 24, 2017, 10:39:36 AM
Their is no revisionism of what the IRA did in the troubles. There is revisionism about 1916, 1920, 1922 and the old IRA. War is dirty. I can't and won't condone the violence perpetrated by the IRA or the British or Loyalists. But I was fortunate in where I was born and raised. As i also said earlier it is too easy to judge the actions of Martin McGuinness through the mores of today. But look closely at conflict any where and you see the same atrocities. Victors write the history, in the North there are no victors just to conflicting views of history. Both the Free State (as was) and the Northern State were founded on terrorist activities. What is wrong in Ireland as a whole is that we don't stop often enough to look at the problem through our opponents eyes, lest we be uncomfortable with what we see.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: haranguerer on January 24, 2017, 11:02:37 AM
Quote from: Orior on January 23, 2017, 05:36:33 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 22, 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

If it was not a war, then why do the british display pictures and artifacts from the six counties in the Imperial War Museum in London?

Including this  :o
https://imperialwarmuseum.wordpress.com/2015/05/31/loyalist-murder-weapon-found-at-iwm/
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: lynchbhoy on January 25, 2017, 11:53:38 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on January 23, 2017, 09:34:58 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 22, 2017, 11:47:37 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 22, 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 21, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: currychip on January 21, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.
not liked but accepted round our way

war is war

it was a dirty war started off since plantation...

but war is never clean.

thankfully it's in past history now.

If it was war then the hunger strikers should have been given POW status, in the can't have your cake and eat it sense.
They originally had that status...but it was revoked in order to label republican prisoners as criminals...
part of what the hunger strike was about!!

..now you know!!!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: vallankumous on March 21, 2017, 08:04:58 AM
He was an amazing figure in Irish Politics.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: GJL on March 21, 2017, 08:35:14 AM
RIP. Legend of a man.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on March 21, 2017, 08:36:12 AM
An ordinary man who did extraordinary things.

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: johnneycool on March 21, 2017, 08:54:43 AM
A Rebel I came,
I'm still the same.
On the cold wind of night you will find me.


Rip Martin.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 21, 2017, 09:05:06 AM
RIP.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Main Street on March 21, 2017, 09:41:06 AM
He was a consistent rock in the republican movement from the very beginnings, you'd have thought he was indestructible but sadly not the body which carried the man.











Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: sensethetone on March 21, 2017, 09:47:27 AM
RIP Martin
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: theskull1 on March 21, 2017, 10:16:25 AM
RIP.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: vallankumous on March 21, 2017, 10:27:18 AM
Quote from: Hardy on January 21, 2017, 05:19:44 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 21, 2017, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on January 21, 2017, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: PW Nally on January 21, 2017, 08:08:27 AM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on January 21, 2017, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html (http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html)

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

A very constructive post that shows an understanding of the Northern situation.
On the other hand we have syferus being as articulate as Jolene Bunting.
Great post Applesisapples.

I think that most under the age of 40 (or certainly 30) would lean towards SF, especially in the north.
That may be so but I am alluding to a lack of personal experience of the north in the 60's and 70's. My Dad god rest him related stories of how neighbours who were B Specials took great delight in abusing their powers as an auxiliary police force, neighbours mind you not strangers. Every July a home up until the late early '80's the OO transported their lambegs 3 miles from the hall to bate them outside the chapel. Times have changed but the trouble can't be viewed in isolation or from the comfort of todays catholic middle class. Those from the south quick with the condemnation easily forget the blood on the hands of many of the founding fathers of the southern state.I have also stopped short of accusing our southern fellow countrymen of abandoning us, as I don't think they had much option. But I do believe their is a suppressed guilt in the southern mindset that they did so and are some how responsible for the trouble, hence the fervour to heap it all (blame) onto SF and the IRA.

Balderpoppytwaddle

This is an example of why the quote function is terrible.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: ziggy90 on March 21, 2017, 10:30:44 AM
RIP.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness
Post by: Applesisapples on March 21, 2017, 10:38:15 AM
Quote from: vallankumous on March 21, 2017, 10:27:18 AM
Quote from: Hardy on January 21, 2017, 05:19:44 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 21, 2017, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on January 21, 2017, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: PW Nally on January 21, 2017, 08:08:27 AM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on January 21, 2017, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 20, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 20, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html (http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html)

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.
I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

A very constructive post that shows an understanding of the Northern situation.
On the other hand we have syferus being as articulate as Jolene Bunting.
Great post Applesisapples.

I think that most under the age of 40 (or certainly 30) would lean towards SF, especially in the north.
That may be so but I am alluding to a lack of personal experience of the north in the 60's and 70's. My Dad god rest him related stories of how neighbours who were B Specials took great delight in abusing their powers as an auxiliary police force, neighbours mind you not strangers. Every July a home up until the late early '80's the OO transported their lambegs 3 miles from the hall to bate them outside the chapel. Times have changed but the trouble can't be viewed in isolation or from the comfort of todays catholic middle class. Those from the south quick with the condemnation easily forget the blood on the hands of many of the founding fathers of the southern state.I have also stopped short of accusing our southern fellow countrymen of abandoning us, as I don't think they had much option. But I do believe their is a suppressed guilt in the southern mindset that they did so and are some how responsible for the trouble, hence the fervour to heap it all (blame) onto SF and the IRA.

Balderpoppytwaddle

This is an example of why the quote function is terrible.
You are a bit late there Val :D
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: The Stallion on March 21, 2017, 10:39:29 AM
Agree on the quote issue. If nothing else comes from the sad news of Marty passing let it be an improvement to the quote function.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Rossfan on March 21, 2017, 10:51:20 AM
RIP Martin.
If it wasn't for Unionist bigotry, intolerance and discrimination and suppression most of us would never had heard of him.
He still had to confront that mindset right at the end when Foster came along and tried to turn the clock back 60 years.
Slán a mhac. 
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 21, 2017, 11:07:38 AM
Norman Tebbit didn't read the memo.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Hectic on March 21, 2017, 11:13:22 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 21, 2017, 10:51:20 AM
RIP Martin.
If it wasn't for Unionist bigotry, intolerance and discrimination and suppression most of us would never had heard of him.
He still had to confront that mindset right at the end when Foster came along and tried to turn the clock back 60 years.
Slán a mhac.

Bang on.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: north_antrim_hound on March 21, 2017, 12:41:03 PM
RIP
martin

Plenty of self righteous detractors in our board

Here's What some better men than you,Norman Tebbit and Jim Allister and would have said

" Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
J F Kenedy

" sometimes you have to pick the gun up to put the gun down"
Malcom X


Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: maddog on March 21, 2017, 01:01:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 21, 2017, 11:07:38 AM
Norman Tebbit didn't read the memo.

Well if Norman thinks thats where Martin is headed he should be careful what he wishes for.

RIP Martin
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: stew on March 21, 2017, 01:54:18 PM
I dont understand why people talk ill of the dead, when Thatcher died many people went wild with happiness at the death of a frail old woman, I detested her in life but felt nothing like happiness at her death, I felt nothing at all actually, the last thing I would do would be to badmouth someone who just died yet facebook has the haters out in full force, bad craic to be at, I had no time for Martin but I respect the work he did to stop the killing in this neck of the woods.

RIP Martin.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: foxcommander on March 21, 2017, 02:57:51 PM
Ordinary men and women who battled for equality and took their people further than they possibly could imagine. RIP Martin.

From hills and farms a call to arms
Was heard by one and all.
And from the glen came brave young men
To answer Irelands call.
`T wasnt long ago we faced a foe,
The old brigade and me,
And by my side they fought and died
That Ireland might be free.

Where are the lads that stood with me
When history was made?
A Ghra Mo Chroi, I long to see
The boys of the old brigade.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: AhNowRef on March 21, 2017, 03:06:20 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 21, 2017, 10:51:20 AM
RIP Martin.
If it wasn't for Unionist bigotry, intolerance and discrimination and suppression most of us would never had heard of him.
He still had to confront that mindset right at the end when Foster came along and tried to turn the clock back 60 years.
Slán a mhac.

Very well put ... RIP Martin, you were a true statesman..

I would suggest that the "threat" from BrokenPromises & the DUP hoard of another election will be somewhat tempered now .. They would hardly like the end result..
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: J70 on March 21, 2017, 03:29:22 PM
Quote from: stew on March 21, 2017, 01:54:18 PM
I dont understand why people talk ill of the dead, when Thatcher died many people went wild with happiness at the death of a frail old woman, I detested her in life but felt nothing like happiness at her death, I felt nothing at all actually, the last thing I would do would be to badmouth someone who just died yet facebook has the haters out in full force, bad craic to be at, I had no time for Martin but I respect the work he did to stop the killing in this neck of the woods.

RIP Martin.

As someone who grew up in it stew, do you think he was justified in his hardline pursuit of war?

It's easy for us from the south (I grew up a few miles from the border, as the crow flies - might as well have been 50) to condemn and disapprove, but we didn't grow up in a unionist security state with the British army and loyalists thrown into the mix.

Was the current day resolution only achievable as a result of the Troubles, or inevitable in Western Europe? If it was inevitable, was that foreseeable (I'd say probably not, if even Sunningdale was rejected by Paisley and the unionists/loyalists).

Can we celebrate 1916 and 1919-20 and our ancestors roles in it while being horrified by what the modernIRA did, just because  the horror of the murder and callousness was observable  in real time and not romanticized?

Always a dilemma, at least for me.

RIP Martin.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 21, 2017, 03:44:05 PM
Eilis 2 is going to do something very decent

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/martin-mcguinness-death-queen-to-send-private-message-to-family-of-former-deputy-first-minister-1.3018556
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Puckoon on March 21, 2017, 03:46:27 PM
As iconic a figure as I've known in my lifetime. The complexities could take a lifetime to understand. In the end, I'm grateful he was a part of the process


RIP Martin McGuinness.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 21, 2017, 04:24:59 PM
Financial Times

McGuinness became deputy first minister and its most effective and thoughtful political leader as Northern Ireland emerged from three decades of strife to experience a fragile but enduring peace.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Applesisapples on March 21, 2017, 04:37:44 PM
I will reprint below an earlier post of mine, it says exactly what I need to say about him and the experiences of my generation.

I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: AhNowRef on March 21, 2017, 04:48:55 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2017, 04:37:44 PM
I will reprint below an earlier post of mine, it says exactly what I need to say about him and the experiences of my generation.

I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

This is it in a nutshell unfortunately ... Your post just about sums up exactly my own situation & views and those of many more besides...

The bit I highlighted is the crux of it ... and their intransigence of late just exemplifies this ..

I never voted SF until the peace process came into being and I honestly believe Martin McGuiness did all he could to create and maintain it..  I just wish there was someone like him in Unionism..
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: magpie seanie on March 21, 2017, 05:05:36 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 21, 2017, 10:51:20 AM
RIP Martin.
If it wasn't for Unionist bigotry, intolerance and discrimination and suppression most of us would never had heard of him.
He still had to confront that mindset right at the end when Foster came along and tried to turn the clock back 60 years.
Slán a mhac.

Excellent post and I agree entirely. I had the pleasure of meeting him in my college days when I couldn't hear his voice on TV. Think the debate was about removing that part of the broadcasting act. He impressed me that evening.....safe to say I was right in what I thought about him afterwards. A true leader.

RIP Martin.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: passedit on March 21, 2017, 06:01:26 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2017, 04:37:44 PM
I will reprint below an earlier post of mine, it says exactly what I need to say about him and the experiences of my generation.

I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

Well said Apples, I see Adams quoted as saying Martin didn't go to war the war came to him. A good few Unionists stepping up to the plate today which gives some hope.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7cNVZeX0AQ8uL6.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: passedit on March 21, 2017, 06:03:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 21, 2017, 11:07:38 AM
Norman Tebbit didn't read the memo.

Every time you hear any mealy mouthing from the British Establishment (including the first ever RC prime minister) ask yourself how many innocents have been blown to smithereens, in the two decades since the IRA ceasefire, in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Yemen and marvel at the hypocrisy.

History will judge Martin kindly. RIP
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 21, 2017, 06:25:44 PM
Quote from: passedit on March 21, 2017, 06:03:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 21, 2017, 11:07:38 AM
Norman Tebbit didn't read the memo.

Every time you hear any mealy mouthing from the British Establishment (including the first ever RC prime minister) ask yourself how many innocents have been blown to smithereens, in the two decades since the IRA ceasefire, in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Yemen and marvel at the hypocrisy.

History will judge Martin kindly. RIP
May said she could not condone stuff he did but she voted for Iraq
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Avondhu star on March 21, 2017, 06:31:11 PM
Quote from: passedit on March 21, 2017, 06:03:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 21, 2017, 11:07:38 AM
Norman Tebbit didn't read the memo.

Every time you hear any mealy mouthing from the British Establishment (including the first ever RC prime minister) ask yourself how many innocents have been blown to smithereens, in the two decades since the IRA ceasefire, in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Yemen and marvel at the hypocrisy.

History will judge Martin kindly. RIP
Does anyone seriously think that any of Thatchers crew would speak favourably of Martin McGuinness? The Provos were responsible for terrible atrocities but at least when the opportunity arose they moved on. The Tories havent but would abandon the Unionists in the morning if it suited Little England
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 21, 2017, 06:46:22 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/21/martin-mcguinness-obituary

Unlike Adams, McGuinness did not come from a republican background, but grew up in a city where gerrymandering meant that Protestants always controlled the city council, even though Catholics were the majority population. Indeed, he said that when the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association (NICRA) began campaigning for equal rights, he saw no point in joining.
He failed his 11 plus, and on leaving the Christian Brothers' technical college he was turned down for a job as a car mechanic because he was a Catholic. He accepted the inevitable and sought a job open to Catholics. The fact that he became a butcher's assistant was used mockingly against him during the Troubles. The baton attack on Fitt "outraged" him into politics.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 21, 2017, 07:00:29 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on March 21, 2017, 06:31:11 PM
Quote from: passedit on March 21, 2017, 06:03:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 21, 2017, 11:07:38 AM
Norman Tebbit didn't read the memo.

Every time you hear any mealy mouthing from the British Establishment (including the first ever RC prime minister) ask yourself how many innocents have been blown to smithereens, in the two decades since the IRA ceasefire, in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Yemen and marvel at the hypocrisy.

History will judge Martin kindly. RIP
Does anyone seriously think that any of Thatchers crew would speak favourably of Martin McGuinness? The Provos were responsible for terrible atrocities but at least when the opportunity arose they moved on. The Tories havent but would abandon the Unionists in the morning if it suited Little England
It's interesting to compare the reactions of Tories and Labour politicians
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on March 21, 2017, 09:06:42 PM
McGuinness should be every bit as lauded for his role in taking the war to the Brits in a time it needed to happen as much as his role in bringing the conflict to an end and making the peace process work.

A courageous and selfless man.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Mayo4Sam on March 21, 2017, 09:09:45 PM
Quote from: AhNowRef on March 21, 2017, 04:48:55 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2017, 04:37:44 PM
I will reprint below an earlier post of mine, it says exactly what I need to say about him and the experiences of my generation.

I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

This is it in a nutshell unfortunately ... Your post just about sums up exactly my own situation & views and those of many more besides...

The bit I highlighted is the crux of it ... and their intransigence of late just exemplifies this ..

I never voted SF until the peace process came into being and I honestly believe Martin McGuiness did all he could to create and maintain it..  I just wish there was someone like him in Unionism..

RIP Martin, always came across as a true gentleman and sincere, it seems obvious from this end that things wouldn't have happened without him and he brought a lot of people along with him that wouldn't have gone without him.
But I would say the same for Trimble (who eventually paid for it with his political career) and later Ian Paisley.

You can see from Ian Paisley Jr comments that there was a genuine respect for Martin McGuinness

http://www.thejournal.ie/ian-paisley-jr-thank-you-3195631-Jan2017/
http://www.irishnews.com/news/politicalnews/2017/01/20/news/ian-paisley-jnr-pays-generous-tribute-to-martin-mcguinness-894950/ - video on this one
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: cuconnacht on March 21, 2017, 09:36:00 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 21, 2017, 09:06:42 PM
McGuinness should be every bit as lauded for his role in taking the war to the Brits in a time it needed to happen as much as his role in bringing the conflict to an end and making the peace process work.

A courageous and selfless man.
+100
The point of the sword in battle when battle was needed
And a peace that never looked possible to anyone ever.
Great son of Derry and a fine son of of his country when no one showed.
RIP .
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: johnneycool on March 21, 2017, 09:57:45 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on March 21, 2017, 06:31:11 PM
Quote from: passedit on March 21, 2017, 06:03:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 21, 2017, 11:07:38 AM
Norman Tebbit didn't read the memo.

Every time you hear any mealy mouthing from the British Establishment (including the first ever RC prime minister) ask yourself how many innocents have been blown to smithereens, in the two decades since the IRA ceasefire, in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Yemen and marvel at the hypocrisy.

History will judge Martin kindly. RIP
Does anyone seriously think that any of Thatchers crew would speak favourably of Martin McGuinness? The Provos were responsible for terrible atrocities but at least when the opportunity arose they moved on. The Tories havent but would abandon the Unionists in the morning if it suited Little England



I always find it laughable to hear Tebbit and the likes talking about cowards when the real cowards sit in Whitehall sending some other poor sods son's to do their dirty work here and around the globe.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on March 21, 2017, 09:58:34 PM
Some wonderful commentary from Denis Bradley there.

Calling out some of the revisionist bullshit that the detractors will try and spread.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: foxcommander on March 21, 2017, 10:05:44 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 21, 2017, 09:58:34 PM
Some wonderful commentary from Denis Bradley there.

Calling out some of the revisionist bullshit that the detractors will try and spread.

RTE got to work early on it bringing up events that happened in Derry over the years. Couldn't help themselves.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0321/861288-martin-mcguinness-obituary/
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on March 21, 2017, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on March 21, 2017, 10:05:44 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 21, 2017, 09:58:34 PM
Some wonderful commentary from Denis Bradley there.

Calling out some of the revisionist bullshit that the detractors will try and spread.

RTE got to work early on it bringing up events that happened in Derry over the years. Couldn't help themselves.

Giving Nesbitt a pulpit to pedal his bile here.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: macdanger2 on March 21, 2017, 10:34:41 PM
RIP.

Having not lived in the north in the 60s and 70s, I certainly couldn't judge him. For me anyway, he has a lot more in the positives column than the negatives column.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: 6th sam on March 22, 2017, 12:07:16 AM
A genuine, charismatic, principled leader. As a nationalist in Derry, He was on the receiving  end of appalling injustice at the hands of unionism and the British state , and he took a path which many young Catholics felt they had no option but to take at the time .
The narrative still promoted by unionists and Tory Britain , and even among some in the 26 counties , that the conflict here was entirely the responsibility of one side, remains the single biggest barrier to progress here.
Nobody expects unionism, tory Britain, or their apologists here , to forget or forgive the IRA campaign but until we get a magnanimous leader of "greater unionism" in the mould of Martin mcguinness  to recognise their contributions to the conflict , we will never move on.
In my view , no politician in Ireland has done more for the peace process than Martin, and his contribution has been recognised today from many unlikely sources. The warmth of his personality , his Christian values and his genuine respect and empathy for unionists, have brought us a long way. I hope his legacy will be that in a "united Ireland" (which is inevitable in some form) , those from the British tradition will enjoy the respect , equality, and empathy that northern nationalists still don't fully enjoy. Go raibh Maith agat , a Mháirtín, Agus Go ndéana Dia trócaire ar do anam dílis
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: stew on March 22, 2017, 01:06:40 AM
Quote from: J70 on March 21, 2017, 03:29:22 PM
Quote from: stew on March 21, 2017, 01:54:18 PM
I dont understand why people talk ill of the dead, when Thatcher died many people went wild with happiness at the death of a frail old woman, I detested her in life but felt nothing like happiness at her death, I felt nothing at all actually, the last thing I would do would be to badmouth someone who just died yet facebook has the haters out in full force, bad craic to be at, I had no time for Martin but I respect the work he did to stop the killing in this neck of the woods.

RIP Martin.

As someone who grew up in it stew, do you think he was justified in his hardline pursuit of war?

It's easy for us from the south (I grew up a few miles from the border, as the crow flies - might as well have been 50) to condemn and disapprove, but we didn't grow up in a unionist security state with the British army and loyalists thrown into the mix.

Was the current day resolution only achievable as a result of the Troubles, or inevitable in Western Europe? If it was inevitable, was that foreseeable (I'd say probably not, if even Sunningdale was rejected by Paisley and the unionists/loyalists).

Can we celebrate 1916 and 1919-20 and our ancestors roles in it while being horrified by what the modernIRA did, just because  the horror of the murder and callousness was observable  in real time and not romanticized?

Always a dilemma, at least for me.

RIP Martin.

To me the IRA were a necessary evil, we were being treated like shite by arrogant british bastards and they pushed the nationalists too far, I hated the way they made you feel, when I was seven we were burnt out of our home in portadown by loyalist scum, in 1997 there was a device set that blew up my parents downstairs in Lonsdale Villas in Armagh, my mother insisted both times they the family move house, much to my fathers chagrin!

Something had to be done, I just wish they had hit military and government  buildings instead of blowing up butchers shops and ordinary Protestants going to work in a mini van etc, they did a brilliant job of keeping drugs off the streets but yet you would go to a gaelic match and they would have vermin collecting money for the prisoners wives and they would slabber at you if you walked on by.

McGuinness to me was a bad bastard until he forged, along with Paisley and co the relative peace we enjoy today, I respect the hell out of him for that but I also remember he was a butcher, he was enigmatic bastard thats for sure and like yourself I am vexed by the RA and MMG.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: joemamas on March 22, 2017, 01:52:18 AM
Quote from: stew on March 22, 2017, 01:06:40 AM
Quote from: J70 on March 21, 2017, 03:29:22 PM
Quote from: stew on March 21, 2017, 01:54:18 PM
I dont understand why people talk ill of the dead, when Thatcher died many people went wild with happiness at the death of a frail old woman, I detested her in life but felt nothing like happiness at her death, I felt nothing at all actually, the last thing I would do would be to badmouth someone who just died yet facebook has the haters out in full force, bad craic to be at, I had no time for Martin but I respect the work he did to stop the killing in this neck of the woods.

RIP Martin.

As someone who grew up in it stew, do you think he was justified in his hardline pursuit of war?

It's easy for us from the south (I grew up a few miles from the border, as the crow flies - might as well have been 50) to condemn and disapprove, but we didn't grow up in a unionist security state with the British army and loyalists thrown into the mix.

Was the current day resolution only achievable as a result of the Troubles, or inevitable in Western Europe? If it was inevitable, was that foreseeable (I'd say probably not, if even Sunningdale was rejected by Paisley and the unionists/loyalists).

Can we celebrate 1916 and 1919-20 and our ancestors roles in it while being horrified by what the modernIRA did, just because  the horror of the murder and callousness was observable  in real time and not romanticized?

Always a dilemma, at least for me.

RIP Martin.

To me the IRA were a necessary evil, we were being treated like shite by arrogant british b**tards and they pushed the nationalists too far, I hated the way they made you feel, when I was seven we were burnt out of our home in portadown by loyalist scum, in 1997 there was a device set that blew up my parents downstairs in Lonsdale Villas in Armagh, my mother insisted both times they the family move house, much to my fathers chagrin!

Something had to be done, I just wish they had hit military and government  buildings instead of blowing up butchers shops and ordinary Protestants going to work in a mini van etc, they did a brilliant job of keeping drugs off the streets but yet you would go to a gaelic match and they would have vermin collecting money for the prisoners wives and they would slabber at you if you walked on by.

McGuinness to me was a bad b**tard until he forged, along with Paisley and co the relative peace we enjoy today, I respect the hell out of him for that but I also remember he was a butcher, he was enigmatic b**tard thats for sure and like yourself I am vexed by the RA and MMG.

Incredible post, while I was 17 living in the west of Ireland when the hunger strikes occurred and was very aware what was going on a day to day basis,  I cannot not imagine how I would have reacted in the same circumstances how you managed not to have a way more biased view is a testament to you.

As mentioned earlier, he most likely had no choice but to be dragged into it.

I also have a feeling that history will judge him.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: MoChara on March 22, 2017, 08:15:45 AM
I've plenty of my own faults with McGuinness and Sinn Fein, but I find it laughable how the media are trying to portray McGuinness as having tried to atone for his sins in the IRA with his good work in the Peace Process. I've never read McGuinness ever say he was ashamed of his past or that he was trying to make up for it, and why would he, the IRA did some horrible things for sure but it was a war and an entirely legitimate one at that
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: JohnDenver on March 22, 2017, 08:49:41 AM
Just in relation to Tebbitt, I saw this doing the rounds on twitter

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7cHOMlXUAEIbJW.jpg)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Applesisapples on March 22, 2017, 08:50:29 AM
It is striking how many on the Unionist and victims side portray the conflict here as being solely the fault of the IRA and hence Martin McGuinness. It would appear that you can only be a victim if it was at the hands of the IRA.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: johnneycool on March 22, 2017, 09:15:34 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2017, 08:50:29 AM
It is striking how many on the Unionist and victims side portray the conflict here as being solely the fault of the IRA and hence Martin McGuinness. It would appear that you can only be a victim if it was at the hands of the IRA.

Brian Feeney touched on that last night on The View last night on why did he believe Martin McGuinness never apologised with Jeffrey believing that McGuinness should have. Feeneys thoughts were entirely right in that Martin McGuinness didn't believe he did anything wrong and an apology was never going to be forthcoming and then came the sting from Feeney when he said Unionists have never felt the need to apologise for the 50 or 60 years of systematic sectarian government ( I can't be sure of the exact words, but that was the jist of it).

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Farrandeelin on March 22, 2017, 09:18:11 AM
I see Arlene is undecided whether or not she's attending the funeral...
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: theskull1 on March 22, 2017, 09:30:57 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on March 22, 2017, 09:15:34 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2017, 08:50:29 AM
It is striking how many on the Unionist and victims side portray the conflict here as being solely the fault of the IRA and hence Martin McGuinness. It would appear that you can only be a victim if it was at the hands of the IRA.

Brian Feeney touched on that last night on The View last night on why did he believe Martin McGuinness never apologised with Jeffrey believing that McGuinness should have. Feeneys thoughts were entirely right in that Martin McGuinness didn't believe he did anything wrong and an apology was never going to be forthcoming and then came the sting from Feeney when he said Unionists have never felt the need to apologise for the 50 or 60 years of systematic sectarian government ( I can't be sure of the exact words, but that was the jist of it).

This is thee one thing that stood out for me yesterday..... and in my life time I've never once heard a unionist leader acknowledge the role that their sectarian governance of this wee country in conjunction with state forces had on the bringing about of the troubles.  Always wonder why there's not more on the history of Northern Ireland 1920's to 1970 researched and discussed in a public arena?  That might allow this revisionist perspective to be rubbished and possibly open the minds of a unionist population who are blind to the truth of it.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: angermanagement on March 22, 2017, 09:37:58 AM
Did Mike Nesbitt not state several times that Unionists throughout history could've learned something from McGuinness and extending the hand of friendship.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: J70 on March 22, 2017, 09:55:20 AM
Quote from: stew on March 22, 2017, 01:06:40 AM
Quote from: J70 on March 21, 2017, 03:29:22 PM
Quote from: stew on March 21, 2017, 01:54:18 PM
I dont understand why people talk ill of the dead, when Thatcher died many people went wild with happiness at the death of a frail old woman, I detested her in life but felt nothing like happiness at her death, I felt nothing at all actually, the last thing I would do would be to badmouth someone who just died yet facebook has the haters out in full force, bad craic to be at, I had no time for Martin but I respect the work he did to stop the killing in this neck of the woods.

RIP Martin.

As someone who grew up in it stew, do you think he was justified in his hardline pursuit of war?

It's easy for us from the south (I grew up a few miles from the border, as the crow flies - might as well have been 50) to condemn and disapprove, but we didn't grow up in a unionist security state with the British army and loyalists thrown into the mix.

Was the current day resolution only achievable as a result of the Troubles, or inevitable in Western Europe? If it was inevitable, was that foreseeable (I'd say probably not, if even Sunningdale was rejected by Paisley and the unionists/loyalists).

Can we celebrate 1916 and 1919-20 and our ancestors roles in it while being horrified by what the modernIRA did, just because  the horror of the murder and callousness was observable  in real time and not romanticized?

Always a dilemma, at least for me.

RIP Martin.

To me the IRA were a necessary evil, we were being treated like shite by arrogant british b**tards and they pushed the nationalists too far, I hated the way they made you feel, when I was seven we were burnt out of our home in portadown by loyalist scum, in 1997 there was a device set that blew up my parents downstairs in Lonsdale Villas in Armagh, my mother insisted both times they the family move house, much to my fathers chagrin!

Something had to be done, I just wish they had hit military and government  buildings instead of blowing up butchers shops and ordinary Protestants going to work in a mini van etc, they did a brilliant job of keeping drugs off the streets but yet you would go to a gaelic match and they would have vermin collecting money for the prisoners wives and they would slabber at you if you walked on by.

McGuinness to me was a bad b**tard until he forged, along with Paisley and co the relative peace we enjoy today, I respect the hell out of him for that but I also remember he was a butcher, he was enigmatic b**tard thats for sure and like yourself I am vexed by the RA and MMG.

That's the shit that we from the south have no understanding or experience of.

Great post stew. And I'm sorry for what you and your family were put through.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 22, 2017, 10:00:16 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 22, 2017, 09:18:11 AM
I see Arlene is undecided whether or not she's attending the funeral...
It's maybe not that surprising. There might be some political theatre by the boys in front of the coffin.
Maybe the DUP heads will go to the removal or find some other way out.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 22, 2017, 10:10:48 AM
The right wing response to the death of McGuinness is interesting. I was reading an article by George Monbiot

http://www.monbiot.com/2014/06/10/the-values-ratchet/
"We are not born with our core values: they are strongly shaped by our social environment. These values can be placed on a spectrum between extrinsic and intrinsic. People towards the intrinsic end have high levels of self-acceptance, strong bonds of intimacy and a powerful desire to help others. People at the other end are drawn to external signifiers, such as fame, financial success and attractiveness. They seek praise and rewards from others.
Research across 70 countries suggests that intrinsic values are strongly associated with an understanding of others, tolerance, appreciation, cooperation and empathy. Those with strong extrinsic values tend to have lower empathy, a stronger attraction towards power, hierarchy and inequality, greater prejudice towards outsiders, and less concern for global justice and the natural world. These clusters exist in opposition to each other: as one set of values strengthens, the other weakens.
They tend to report higher levels of stress, anxiety, anger, envy, dissatisfaction and depression than those at the intrinsic end. Societies in which extrinsic goals are widely adopted are more unequal and uncooperative than those with deep intrinsic values. In one experiment, people with strong extrinsic values who were given a resource to share soon exhausted it (unlike a group with strong intrinsic values), as they all sought to take more than their due.
As extrinsic values are strongly associated with conservative politics, it's in the interests of conservative parties and conservative media to cultivate these values. There are three basic methods. The first is to generate a sense of threat. Experiments reported in the journal Motivation and Emotion suggest that when people feel threatened or insecure, they gravitate towards extrinsic goals. Perceived dangers – such as the threat of crime, terrorism, deficits, inflation or immigration – trigger a short-term survival response, in which you protect your own interests and forget other people's"

Right wingers think differently and are motivated by different values.
Freedom, security, rule of law and flag always work as dog whistles

The Unionists of the 70s played on these themes. Tebbit still thinks like that.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 22, 2017, 10:18:59 AM
Quote from: MoChara on March 22, 2017, 08:15:45 AM
I've plenty of my own faults with McGuinness and Sinn Fein, but I find it laughable how the media are trying to portray McGuinness as having tried to atone for his sins in the IRA with his good work in the Peace Process. I've never read McGuinness ever say he was ashamed of his past or that he was trying to make up for it, and why would he, the IRA did some horrible things for sure but it was a war and an entirely legitimate one at that

That's because he wasn't and, in my opinion (as a comparative moderate), had no need to be. There were many horrific, inexcusable acts committed by the IRA - Kingsmill, Mountbatten, Enniskillen etc. but I certainly don't think McGuinness ever insinuated that he did not wholeheartedly believe that, as a whole, armed resistance/uprising was an acceptable response to the contemporary circumstances. There's very much the hanging implication from some Unionists (Jeffery on Spotlight last night for example) that his "rehabilitation" in their eyes could never be complete without footage of him completely renouncing every IRA operation as unacceptable and prostrating himself at their altar and begging forgiveness.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: The Trap on March 22, 2017, 10:26:45 AM
I lived through the 70s 80s and 90s in Tyrone........as a young boy I remember the check points, the harassment, town centres being closed off, rioting and of course the violence on the news everyday, sometimes very close to our home. I was lucky that my parents were not political and tried their best to shield us from all that was going on. As this is a GAA board I can assure you that wearing GAA colours, carrying a GAA bag or a hurl, going to a match etc made you a target for loyalists but especially RUC and UDR patrols who delighted in treating young Catholics like dirt. At that stage I was not fully aware of the unionist state that we lived in, the gerrymandering, jobs for the boys, council and civil service domination. I did grow up to learn of all this and I could see why people rebelled against it but I could never get my head around the atrocities that took place. But as someone said earlier maybe the IRA were a necessary evil to get to where we are now, I don't know, its a very difficult one especially for those who suffered including lots of catholics at their hands.
When I saw Martin McGuinness announce his retirement and saw how frail he was I did feel for the man. When I woke to the news yesterday I prayed for the man. I don't know all about his past but I do thank him for the journey he took. My kids have a better chance at life that I did.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 22, 2017, 10:29:13 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on March 22, 2017, 09:15:34 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2017, 08:50:29 AM
It is striking how many on the Unionist and victims side portray the conflict here as being solely the fault of the IRA and hence Martin McGuinness. It would appear that you can only be a victim if it was at the hands of the IRA.

Brian Feeney touched on that last night on The View last night on why did he believe Martin McGuinness never apologised with Jeffrey believing that McGuinness should have. Feeneys thoughts were entirely right in that Martin McGuinness didn't believe he did anything wrong and an apology was never going to be forthcoming and then came the sting from Feeney when he said Unionists have never felt the need to apologise for the 50 or 60 years of systematic sectarian government ( I can't be sure of the exact words, but that was the jist of it).

That was exactly it - Noel Thompson (playing devil's advocate in fairness to him) suggested last night that Trimble's "NI was a cold house for Catholics" comment was sufficient to cover that off. Feeney basically laughed at him.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Applesisapples on March 22, 2017, 10:33:17 AM
I will repeat, read James Kelly's Bonfires on the Hillsides.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 22, 2017, 10:48:59 AM
Quote from: seafoid on March 22, 2017, 10:00:16 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 22, 2017, 09:18:11 AM
I see Arlene is undecided whether or not she's attending the funeral...
It's maybe not that surprising. There might be some political theatre by the boys in front of the coffin.
Maybe the DUP heads will go to the removal or find some other way out.

Any political/military theatre would be wrong but I don't think it will happen.

It would be appalling indictment on Foster if she cannot bring herself to attend her working colleague's funeral.  Using a fear of what others will do it is an excuse.  She might find Martin's actions over his life distasteful or wrong (lots of discussion here) but she has a duty as outgoing First Minister to represent the people whom Martin represented. 

It's like the famous soccer matches in France.  She is entitled to be an OWC supporter and have no private interest in the Republic but as First Minister she has a job to represent all of Northern Ireland.  Going to the match would have been a small thing but would reflect that.

Since devolution, that penny only seemed to have dropped for Paisley.  To me it's a failure of Unionist Leadership.  Martin at least tried to reach out (whether it was accepted/believed is another question) to all his constituents.

For a lot of people it would be just one more blot on the copy book of Foster if she doesn't go.  Also I hope that Sinn Féin leadership reflect on what Martin McGuinness brought in terms of leadership and in coming weeks, follow his example.

Ar dheis dé go raibh a anam.

/Jim.

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on March 22, 2017, 11:10:16 AM
QuoteA few weeks after I got my driving licence, and a few weeks before the IRA ceasefire of 1994, I was driving along a country road in mid-Armagh, with no particular place to go. I came to a British Army checkpoint. Such checkpoints were routine; in fact, during my driving test, the Army stopped and searched the boot of the car on the way back to the test centre (the test centre was right beside an army base). Here, again, they asked to search the boot. No problem. The soldier -carrying a rifle, of course- called in the registration number on his radio. He then asked me to pull over. So I did. Then he asked me to get out of the car.

He walked back a few yards up the road to the rest of the patrol, who were waving other cars on. I stood waiting. To begin with, it was no big deal to me. Five minutes passed. Then ten. It felt like longer. At first I put the delay down to my new driver's licence and cross-checks or something. It was not as if I had ever been involved in anything. Then I started to wonder if they were taking the piss. Then, wondering whether they were waiting to see if I would react in some way. I remembered what had happened to Karen Reilly, shot dead at a checkpoint in West Belfast, and what had happened, maybe back in the 80s, when my father had his boot searched by the soldiers one night. "How do you explain this, sir?", asked the soldier, returning from the boot to the driver's window, holding a rifle he had supposedly found in the boot. "How many people have you tried that on tonight?", my father asked, not before it crossing his mind that maybe he had been driving a car with a gun in the boot. The soldier laughed, and let him pass.

All this went on in my head, but I was trying to make sure I was showing no outward signs of unease, anything that might mean having to stand there even longer. I figured that if I asked what was keeping them, it would only make them more inclined to make me stay put for longer. And they were the ones holding the guns.

After about 25 minutes, I was told I could go. There was no "thank you", no "sorry for the delay", nothing.

On a scale of individual acts of military repression conducted by British armed forces in Northern Ireland, this delay must rank down somewhere between the infinitesimally trivial and the non-existent. But it lies nonetheless on a continuum: I had no intention of doing harm to anyone, but I was made to do what I was told for no apparent reason other than the presence of a group of armed men with guns. In my head there was resentment beginning to simmer, a feeling, in addition, of weakness at having to submit.

It isn't hard for me -now- to understand how others, on witnessing or experiencing things that were immeasurably worse, or on joining all the little things and all the big things together and seeing them as part of an overall picture of repression and domination, might have opted to join the IRA.

At that point, the airwaves in Northern Ireland had been saturated for as long as I can remember with ways of speaking about the conflict that divided the place into a peaceful majority and a violent minority. A majority, you were told, wanted peace, but the violent extremists 'on both sides' were engaged in a 'tit-for-tat' 'cycle of violence'. In the midst of this was the British Army and RUC, who were apparently defending society againg 'the terrorists'. 'BLAME THE TERRORISTS' is what a sign read at a checkpoint in the middle of Cookstown. Absent from this, of course, was the violent role of the British State, whether in the form of internment, torture, operating death squads, or just a generalised presence of armed groups of men patrolling the streets with guns.

This morning, the airwaves and newspapers have been full of analysis of Martin McGuinness, following the announcement of his death. Many commentators are, in a a regurgitation of cliché, classifying him as someone who began as a 'man of war' who then became a 'man of peace'.

And now I'm wondering: what makes you a person 'of peace'? From what I can recall, being in favour of 'peace', back in the 80s and 90s, simply meant that you abided by the rule of law. You would frequently hear statements from the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland or Conservative Party and Unionist MPs to the effect that the majority of Catholics were 'law-abiding'. All this meant is that as far as they were concerned, they did not mount any challenge to the rule of law, and the rule of law, day-to-day, meant things like that whenever a soldier with a rifle told you to get out of the car, you got out of the car, and you kept quiet. To be 'peaceful' in this regard does not mean that you have rejected violence: on the contrary, it just means you have accepted its imposition as a self-evident necessity.
I wonder about other things too. I have yet to hear any analysis, nearly 23 years on from the IRA ceasefire, about how the Britain has moved from being a 'State of violence' to a 'State of peace'. For many opinion-formers, the guiding assumption, still, is that it has only ever been the latter, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Is the re-imposition of a hard border in Ireland, brought about as part of a drive to 'take back control' in Britain, likely to test that assumption? Somehow I doubt it.

When you hear the Norman Tebbits of the world this is the type of thing I reflect on. How many of us have experienced this type of situation?  This mans experience resonates with me significantly as it was round then I had just got my licence and was subjected to this type of behaviour all the time. Coupled with the fact that round April to August 1994 Crossmaglen was basically surrounded by a military ring of steel as there was repeated work being carried out on the barracks. We grew up in a militarised zone. It's remarkable that there were not greater numbers in the IRA but that is testament to our parents and our education system. Martin McGuinness was a brave man both with a gun in his hand or the pen. He fought a long fight to bring us to a safer place. There is still a lot to do but his legacy and influence will hold him in the same light as many other rave men who fought back against the British government before and after 1920.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: AhNowRef on March 22, 2017, 11:13:36 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on March 21, 2017, 09:57:45 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on March 21, 2017, 06:31:11 PM
Quote from: passedit on March 21, 2017, 06:03:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 21, 2017, 11:07:38 AM
Norman Tebbit didn't read the memo.

Every time you hear any mealy mouthing from the British Establishment (including the first ever RC prime minister) ask yourself how many innocents have been blown to smithereens, in the two decades since the IRA ceasefire, in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Yemen and marvel at the hypocrisy.

History will judge Martin kindly. RIP
Does anyone seriously think that any of Thatchers crew would speak favourably of Martin McGuinness? The Provos were responsible for terrible atrocities but at least when the opportunity arose they moved on. The Tories havent but would abandon the Unionists in the morning if it suited Little England



I always find it laughable to hear Tebbit and the likes talking about cowards when the real cowards sit in Whitehall sending some other poor sods son's to do their dirty work here and around the globe.

Too bloody right !!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: AhNowRef on March 22, 2017, 11:17:06 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on March 22, 2017, 12:07:16 AM
A genuine, charismatic, principled leader. As a nationalist in Derry, He was on the receiving  end of appalling injustice at the hands of unionism and the British state , and he took a path which many young Catholics felt they had no option but to take at the time .
The narrative still promoted by unionists and Tory Britain , and even among some in the 26 counties , that the conflict here was entirely the responsibility of one side, remains the single biggest barrier to progress here.
Nobody expects unionism, tory Britain, or their apologists here , to forget or forgive the IRA campaign but until we get a magnanimous leader of "greater unionism" in the mould of Martin mcguinness  to recognise their contributions to the conflict , we will never move on.

In my view , no politician in Ireland has done more for the peace process than Martin, and his contribution has been recognised today from many unlikely sources. The warmth of his personality , his Christian values and his genuine respect and empathy for unionists, have brought us a long way. I hope his legacy will be that in a "united Ireland" (which is inevitable in some form) , those from the British tradition will enjoy the respect , equality, and empathy that northern nationalists still don't fully enjoy. Go raibh Maith agat , a Mháirtín, Agus Go ndéana Dia trócaire ar do anam dílis

+1
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: AhNowRef on March 22, 2017, 11:22:50 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2017, 08:50:29 AM
It is striking how many on the Unionist and victims side portray the conflict here as being solely the fault of the IRA and hence Martin McGuinness. It would appear that you can only be a victim if it was at the hands of the IRA.

Unfortunately .. thus it has always been and thus it will always be..
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 22, 2017, 11:25:55 AM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 22, 2017, 10:48:59 AM
Quote from: seafoid on March 22, 2017, 10:00:16 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 22, 2017, 09:18:11 AM
I see Arlene is undecided whether or not she's attending the funeral...
It's maybe not that surprising. There might be some political theatre by the boys in front of the coffin.
Maybe the DUP heads will go to the removal or find some other way out.

Any political/military theatre would be wrong but I don't think it will happen.

It would be appalling indictment on Foster if she cannot bring herself to attend her working colleague's funeral.  Using a fear of what others will do it is an excuse.  She might find Martin's actions over his life distasteful or wrong (lots of discussion here) but she has a duty as outgoing First Minister to represent the people whom Martin represented. 

It's like the famous soccer matches in France.  She is entitled to be an OWC supporter and have no private interest in the Republic but as First Minister she has a job to represent all of Northern Ireland.  Going to the match would have been a small thing but would reflect that.

Since devolution, that penny only seemed to have dropped for Paisley.  To me it's a failure of Unionist Leadership.  Martin at least tried to reach out (whether it was accepted/believed is another question) to all his constituents.

For a lot of people it would be just one more blot on the copy book of Foster if she doesn't go.  Also I hope that Sinn Féin leadership reflect on what Martin McGuinness brought in terms of leadership and in coming weeks, follow his example.

Ar dheis dé go raibh a anam.

/Jim.
She is quite small minded.

Via the FT  :

"McGuinness said in 2013: "I am absolutely passionate about the peace process and passionate that we will under no circumstances see the situation slip back to where it was before ... And I'm still passionate about working with unionist leaders."
His task was made more difficult in January 2016 when Robinson, whose health had continued to be poor, retired and was succeeded by Foster, the legislative assembly member for the bitterly sectarian rural seat of Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Their year of sharing office, through much of which McGuinness was increasingly unwell, did nothing to bring them closer."

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Walter Cronc on March 22, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
Some serious stories here lads - crazy to think we lived through such times and as BCB1 says thank god for our parents and the education system during the time.

For me Martin McGuinness has given my generation the confidence to be a proud irish man from the north of Ireland. Working in London yesterday I got two jibes about Martin, looking a reaction from me but I refused to lower myself to that level.

He'll go down a hero in my eyes!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: blewuporstuffed on March 22, 2017, 11:37:05 AM
Irony and amputated history
by Jude Collins on March 22, 2017

Irony abounded yesterday.  Enda Kenny spoke of Martin McGuinness's 'terrorist past'  while standing in front of a huge portrait of Michael Collins which decorates his office. BBC and RTÉ reporters stressed the need to see Martin McGuinness 'in the round' –  that is, besides being a peacemaker who worked tirelessly for reconciliation, he was responsible for so many deaths. To drive home the second feature of McGuinness, they had moving testimony from those whose parents or spouses had been killed by the IRA and who blamed Martin McGuinness for this. And yes, the broadcasting outlets did stress how much Martin McGuinness had given of himself to reach out to unionism. They forgot to add how little response he got from unionist politicians.

Or at least how little response he got while he lived.  Yesterday,  both Peter Robinson and David Trimble released their salute to McGuinness, and they both spoke with generosity and warmth about his achievements. And the irony? They waited until he was dead. Had they issued similar statements when he was alive, when he was making effort after effort to bridge the gulf between republicanism/nationalism and unionism, such interventions could have made all the difference. Sinn Féin would have found it harder to speak of disrespect when two former First Ministers spoke of the Sinn Féin leader with such unequivocal approval.  But they didn't. They waited until it would have the least impact.

Perhaps most ironic of all,  there was little or no stress placed on what should have been an obvious question: what motivated Martin McGuinness and thousands like him to resort to violence? Was he programmed that way? Were all those IRA men and women motivated by blood-lust and hatred,  a blood-lust and hatred that suddenly boiled over for no reason in the early 1970s and continued for the next two decades, until they they suddenly decided they didn't want to hate and spill blood any more?

It can't be stressed often enough: people like McGuinness joined the IRA knowing that their chances of being killed or imprisoned were very high. And yet they did it. Such a decision must have been motivated by something. Fifty years of unionist misrule? Attacks by the RUC and B Specials on civil rights marchers?  The beating to death by the RUC of Catholic man Sammy Devenney, in his own home, in front of his children, because he had dared to participate in a civil rights march?

We could go on and on listing motivation points.  As some have quite rightly pointed out, not everyone took a violent path like Martin McGuinness. John Hume didn't, and thousands of  his followers didn't. But then if you look at the composition of the SDLP, while far from exclusively middle-class, it had a great deal more middle-class members than Sinn Féin, just as the IRA had a lot more working-class members than middle-class. Catholic working-class areas were on the receiving end of everything that was detestable in the Orange state, including unlawful killing. Little wonder, then, as Pearse Doherty said on radio yesterday, that so many of them decided, in Martin McGuinness's words, to "fight back".  Doherty also added that he hoped that if he had been in the same position as Martin McGuinness at that time, he too would have "fought back". As a devout coward,  it's obvious  to me that fighting back took real courage. We can feel fairly safe in suggesting that not  all decisions to follow the peaceful path were based on morality.

Finally,  tribute should be paid to Mary Lou McDonald. Among all the verbiage and photographs of McGuinness with that pistol, among all the talk of McGuinness having 'two lives', the IRA life and the political life,  the Sinn Féin vice-president suggested that people should stop marvelling at the change which occurred in Martin McGuinness in the mid-1990s.  Far from being unique, she said, Irish history is replete with men who followed the same path as McGuinness. How a state which had Eamon de Valera as its Taoiseach and President, had Sean Lemass as its Taoiseach, had Frank Aitken as its Minister of External Affairs, people like Dan Breen, Sean MacBride, Richard Mulcahy, Cathal Brugha – how can such a state speak of the 'contradictions' in Martin McGuinness's life?

Enough with the faux bewilderment that Martin McGuinness had a Damascene conversion to politics. Enough with the partial history of our country.

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: AhNowRef on March 22, 2017, 11:49:32 AM
It is extremely sickening to hear the likes of that horrible aul bitter west brit Ruth Dudley Edwards on Newsnight last night and on Nolan this morning blatantly denying that Catholics were even remotely oppressed or terrorised in the old Stormont or indeed during the troubles ...  She is a unionist and continuously spouts the usual lies that the British & Unionists were whiter than white and it was all the nationalists/Catholics fault...

One of my earliest memories was being a very young child and being woken up by a British Soldier standing there with a rifle in his hand ... I come from a large Catholic family, who were NEVER involved in anything, but because we were a large Catholic family we were fair game to be raided on several occasions .. and we were .. 3 in my memory .. Lets just say it was never a pleasant experience..

And as for Tebit, well he's really not worth thinking about as he will continue to stew in his own bile .. for years to come hopefully..

But youse lads are right, only for having parents that shepherded you away from getting involved there would have been a lot more people involved..  but its very easy to see how many people did..
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: maddog on March 22, 2017, 11:54:28 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on March 22, 2017, 11:37:05 AM
Irony and amputated history
by Jude Collins on March 22, 2017

Irony abounded yesterday.  Enda Kenny spoke of Martin McGuinness's 'terrorist past'  while standing in front of a huge portrait of Michael Collins which decorates his office. BBC and RTÉ reporters stressed the need to see Martin McGuinness 'in the round' –  that is, besides being a peacemaker who worked tirelessly for reconciliation, he was responsible for so many deaths. To drive home the second feature of McGuinness, they had moving testimony from those whose parents or spouses had been killed by the IRA and who blamed Martin McGuinness for this. And yes, the broadcasting outlets did stress how much Martin McGuinness had given of himself to reach out to unionism. They forgot to add how little response he got from unionist politicians.

Or at least how little response he got while he lived.  Yesterday,  both Peter Robinson and David Trimble released their salute to McGuinness, and they both spoke with generosity and warmth about his achievements. And the irony? They waited until he was dead. Had they issued similar statements when he was alive, when he was making effort after effort to bridge the gulf between republicanism/nationalism and unionism, such interventions could have made all the difference. Sinn Féin would have found it harder to speak of disrespect when two former First Ministers spoke of the Sinn Féin leader with such unequivocal approval.  But they didn't. They waited until it would have the least impact.

Perhaps most ironic of all,  there was little or no stress placed on what should have been an obvious question: what motivated Martin McGuinness and thousands like him to resort to violence? Was he programmed that way? Were all those IRA men and women motivated by blood-lust and hatred,  a blood-lust and hatred that suddenly boiled over for no reason in the early 1970s and continued for the next two decades, until they they suddenly decided they didn't want to hate and spill blood any more?

It can't be stressed often enough: people like McGuinness joined the IRA knowing that their chances of being killed or imprisoned were very high. And yet they did it. Such a decision must have been motivated by something. Fifty years of unionist misrule? Attacks by the RUC and B Specials on civil rights marchers?  The beating to death by the RUC of Catholic man Sammy Devenney, in his own home, in front of his children, because he had dared to participate in a civil rights march?

We could go on and on listing motivation points.  As some have quite rightly pointed out, not everyone took a violent path like Martin McGuinness. John Hume didn't, and thousands of  his followers didn't. But then if you look at the composition of the SDLP, while far from exclusively middle-class, it had a great deal more middle-class members than Sinn Féin, just as the IRA had a lot more working-class members than middle-class. Catholic working-class areas were on the receiving end of everything that was detestable in the Orange state, including unlawful killing. Little wonder, then, as Pearse Doherty said on radio yesterday, that so many of them decided, in Martin McGuinness's words, to "fight back".  Doherty also added that he hoped that if he had been in the same position as Martin McGuinness at that time, he too would have "fought back". As a devout coward,  it's obvious  to me that fighting back took real courage. We can feel fairly safe in suggesting that not  all decisions to follow the peaceful path were based on morality.

Finally,  tribute should be paid to Mary Lou McDonald. Among all the verbiage and photographs of McGuinness with that pistol, among all the talk of McGuinness having 'two lives', the IRA life and the political life,  the Sinn Féin vice-president suggested that people should stop marvelling at the change which occurred in Martin McGuinness in the mid-1990s.  Far from being unique, she said, Irish history is replete with men who followed the same path as McGuinness. How a state which had Eamon de Valera as its Taoiseach and President, had Sean Lemass as its Taoiseach, had Frank Aitken as its Minister of External Affairs, people like Dan Breen, Sean MacBride, Richard Mulcahy, Cathal Brugha – how can such a state speak of the 'contradictions' in Martin McGuinness's life?

Enough with the faux bewilderment that Martin McGuinness had a Damascene conversion to politics. Enough with the partial history of our country.

Nail on head
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on March 22, 2017, 11:57:02 AM
Jude Collins is one of the most insightful writers on what has happened here. He hits the nail on the head more often than not.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: AhNowRef on March 22, 2017, 12:24:18 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on March 22, 2017, 11:37:05 AM
Irony and amputated history
by Jude Collins on March 22, 2017

Irony abounded yesterday.  Enda Kenny spoke of Martin McGuinness's 'terrorist past'  while standing in front of a huge portrait of Michael Collins which decorates his office. BBC and RTÉ reporters stressed the need to see Martin McGuinness 'in the round' –  that is, besides being a peacemaker who worked tirelessly for reconciliation, he was responsible for so many deaths. To drive home the second feature of McGuinness, they had moving testimony from those whose parents or spouses had been killed by the IRA and who blamed Martin McGuinness for this. And yes, the broadcasting outlets did stress how much Martin McGuinness had given of himself to reach out to unionism. They forgot to add how little response he got from unionist politicians.

Or at least how little response he got while he lived.  Yesterday,  both Peter Robinson and David Trimble released their salute to McGuinness, and they both spoke with generosity and warmth about his achievements. And the irony? They waited until he was dead. Had they issued similar statements when he was alive, when he was making effort after effort to bridge the gulf between republicanism/nationalism and unionism, such interventions could have made all the difference. Sinn Féin would have found it harder to speak of disrespect when two former First Ministers spoke of the Sinn Féin leader with such unequivocal approval.  But they didn't. They waited until it would have the least impact.

Perhaps most ironic of all,  there was little or no stress placed on what should have been an obvious question: what motivated Martin McGuinness and thousands like him to resort to violence? Was he programmed that way? Were all those IRA men and women motivated by blood-lust and hatred,  a blood-lust and hatred that suddenly boiled over for no reason in the early 1970s and continued for the next two decades, until they they suddenly decided they didn't want to hate and spill blood any more?

It can't be stressed often enough: people like McGuinness joined the IRA knowing that their chances of being killed or imprisoned were very high. And yet they did it. Such a decision must have been motivated by something. Fifty years of unionist misrule? Attacks by the RUC and B Specials on civil rights marchers?  The beating to death by the RUC of Catholic man Sammy Devenney, in his own home, in front of his children, because he had dared to participate in a civil rights march?

We could go on and on listing motivation points.  As some have quite rightly pointed out, not everyone took a violent path like Martin McGuinness. John Hume didn't, and thousands of  his followers didn't. But then if you look at the composition of the SDLP, while far from exclusively middle-class, it had a great deal more middle-class members than Sinn Féin, just as the IRA had a lot more working-class members than middle-class. Catholic working-class areas were on the receiving end of everything that was detestable in the Orange state, including unlawful killing. Little wonder, then, as Pearse Doherty said on radio yesterday, that so many of them decided, in Martin McGuinness's words, to "fight back".  Doherty also added that he hoped that if he had been in the same position as Martin McGuinness at that time, he too would have "fought back". As a devout coward,  it's obvious  to me that fighting back took real courage. We can feel fairly safe in suggesting that not  all decisions to follow the peaceful path were based on morality.

Finally,  tribute should be paid to Mary Lou McDonald. Among all the verbiage and photographs of McGuinness with that pistol, among all the talk of McGuinness having 'two lives', the IRA life and the political life,  the Sinn Féin vice-president suggested that people should stop marvelling at the change which occurred in Martin McGuinness in the mid-1990s.  Far from being unique, she said, Irish history is replete with men who followed the same path as McGuinness. How a state which had Eamon de Valera as its Taoiseach and President, had Sean Lemass as its Taoiseach, had Frank Aitken as its Minister of External Affairs, people like Dan Breen, Sean MacBride, Richard Mulcahy, Cathal Brugha – how can such a state speak of the 'contradictions' in Martin McGuinness's life?

Enough with the faux bewilderment that Martin McGuinness had a Damascene conversion to politics. Enough with the partial history of our country.

Every paragraph is brilliant & correct .. Well done Jude Collins
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: blewuporstuffed on March 22, 2017, 12:32:56 PM
I just love his twitter Bio  ;D

Jude Collins
@Jude42
Irish writer and broadcaster, superannuated teacher/ university lecturer. "One of the most sectarian journalists I have ever come across" – Nelson McCausland
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Ty4Sam on March 22, 2017, 12:42:50 PM
Dear God, we have produced some vile, hate filled people in this country but Jim Allister must be up there with the worst of them. Disgusting comments today in Stormont, epitome of the word bigot!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Applesisapples on March 22, 2017, 12:44:38 PM
Quote from: Ty4Sam on March 22, 2017, 12:42:50 PM
Dear God, we have produced some vile, hate filled people in this country but Jim Allister must be up there with the worst of them. Disgusting comments today in Stormont, epitome of the word bigot!
Reflective of the one victim narrative.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: OgraAnDun on March 22, 2017, 01:51:20 PM
Quote from: AhNowRef on March 22, 2017, 11:49:32 AM
It is extremely sickening to hear the likes of that horrible aul bitter west brit Ruth Dudley Edwards on Newsnight last night and on Nolan this morning blatantly denying that Catholics were even remotely oppressed or terrorised in the old Stormont or indeed during the troubles ...  She is a unionist and continuously spouts the usual lies that the British & Unionists were whiter than white and it was all the nationalists/Catholics fault...

One of my earliest memories was being a very young child and being woken up by a British Soldier standing there with a rifle in his hand ... I come from a large Catholic family, who were NEVER involved in anything, but because we were a large Catholic family we were fair game to be raided on several occasions .. and we were .. 3 in my memory .. Lets just say it was never a pleasant experience..

And as for Tebit, well he's really not worth thinking about as he will continue to stew in his own bile .. for years to come hopefully..

But youse lads are right, only for having parents that shepherded you away from getting involved there would have been a lot more people involved..  but its very easy to see how many people did..

I was born in the middle of the ceasefires so escaped 99.9999% of any problems, but one of my earliest memories is playing football in my cousin's house when I was around 4 and accidentally kicking the ball over the hedge onto the road where the British Army were on patrol, to have a gun pointed in my direction and the shout 'do that again and I'll shoot the black side of your bastard head off'. That and a bloody Chinook helicopter hovering overhead 24 hours a day for what seemed like weeks on end.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 22, 2017, 01:55:10 PM
https://inews.co.uk/essentials/daily-mails-irish-edition-different-view-martin-mcguinness/
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: vallankumous on March 22, 2017, 02:08:22 PM
Quote from: stew on March 22, 2017, 01:06:40 AM

To me the IRA were a necessary evil, we were being treated like shite by arrogant british b**tards and they pushed the nationalists too far, I hated the way they made you feel, when I was seven we were burnt out of our home in portadown by loyalist scum, in 1997 there was a device set that blew up my parents downstairs in Lonsdale Villas in Armagh, my mother insisted both times they the family move house, much to my fathers chagrin!

Something had to be done, I just wish they had hit military and government  buildings instead of blowing up butchers shops and ordinary Protestants going to work in a mini van etc, they did a brilliant job of keeping drugs off the streets but yet you would go to a gaelic match and they would have vermin collecting money for the prisoners wives and they would slabber at you if you walked on by.

McGuinness to me was a bad b**tard until he forged, along with Paisley and co the relative peace we enjoy today, I respect the hell out of him for that but I also remember he was a butcher, he was enigmatic b**tard thats for sure and like yourself I am vexed by the RA and MMG.

Thanks Stew.
I wish I could hear the more personal stories and talk to more people directly affected.
It seems when I try to I get distracted by automatic defence or attack mode. Then those with current agendas come in and take all reasoning away. Often I'm seen as a Republican, too old, too young, too catholic etc and so have the inbuilt position. I probably do but am willing to hear more and change if I need to.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: The Iceman on March 22, 2017, 03:04:11 PM
I think I was lucky in many regards to be born in the late 70s. I knew enough about what was going on, the persecution of nationalists etc. but I viewed it through the eyes of a child. My basic needs were met and i was fine. As I got older I became more aware of things and certainly became bitter and prejudiced. I barely spoke to a protestant before going to university. I think had I been born 10 years earlier than bitterness may have compounded and I could see myself (like many young men around armagh) fighting back.  I often think about the consequences of it all. It was in many respects a necessary evil. Like all wars.

Martin McGuinness was a husband and a father and a good one it seems at that. He was a soldier, a freedom fighter, then a politician and without him and men like him there wouldn't be peace today in the North of Ireland. 

Maybe when you move away from home nostalgia plays tricks on you. I spend many a night wondering about a United Ireland in my life time. Without McGuinness I don't think there was a chance...but with his work, his efforts, his life-giving efforts - I think there is a chance...

I'm sure he regretted some of his past. I hope he sought forgiveness and I hope now he rests in peace.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: illdecide on March 22, 2017, 03:24:01 PM
I too grew up in the early 70's and TBh was directly effected by the troubles in my family, I remember the British Soldiers bursting our door down and raiding the house and I remember a solider kicking the castle i was playing with on the floor and it going into a thousand bits with me still bits in my hand. I remember getting to a teenager and starting to throw petrol/paint bombs and any missile i could get my hands on, I remember joining a Republican flute band and wanted to free Ireland and wanted to be like the older guys around the estate. I think what hit home with my mother was the day someone set her down a copy of the "Republican News" with me on the front page parading in a military uniform in Derry was straw that broke the camel's back, from that moment on i was made to leave the band and every time a riot kicked off in the estate i was dragged in by the neck to the house. I grew up (kinda) and wised up (kinda) and when i look back now i realise how different things could have been.

Regarding Martin I have great respect for him and am thankful them men were around in the 70's growing up as there'd be very few of us left had they not taken up the armed struggle, i know some things happened that shouldn't have but i believe 95% of their targets were against the armed forces and loyalists. I think what he's done recently over the last 15 years is even more remarkable when u consider where he came from and what he was trying to achieve and for that i thank him, he showed great patience and is responsible for the peace we have today...

RIP Martin
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: longballin on March 22, 2017, 03:50:26 PM
Quote from: illdecide on March 22, 2017, 03:24:01 PM
I too grew up in the early 70's and TBh was directly effected by the troubles in my family, I remember the British Soldiers bursting our door down and raiding the house and I remember a solider kicking the castle i was playing with on the floor and it going into a thousand bits with me still bits in my hand. I remember getting to a teenager and starting to throw petrol/paint bombs and any missile i could get my hands on, I remember joining a Republican flute band and wanted to free Ireland and wanted to be like the older guys around the estate. I think what hit home with my mother was the day someone set her down a copy of the "Republican News" with me on the front page parading in a military uniform in Derry was straw that broke the camel's back, from that moment on i was made to leave the band and every time a riot kicked off in the estate i was dragged in by the neck to the house. I grew up (kinda) and wised up (kinda) and when i look back now i realise how different things could have been.

Regarding Martin I have great respect for him and am thankful them men were around in the 70's growing up as there'd be very few of us left had they not taken up the armed struggle, i know some things happened that shouldn't have but i believe 95% of their targets were against the armed forces and loyalists. I think what he's done recently over the last 15 years is even more remarkable when u consider where he came from and what he was trying to achieve and for that i thank him, he showed great patience and is responsible for the peace we have today...

RIP Martin

Well written and a very accurate assessment of what was going on at that time that drove men and women to join the IRA and fight back. Martin McGuinness RIP.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: stew on March 22, 2017, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 22, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
Some serious stories here lads - crazy to think we lived through such times and as BCB1 says thank god for our parents and the education system during the time.

For me Martin McGuinness has given my generation the confidence to be a proud irish man from the north of Ireland. Working in London yesterday I got two jibes about Martin, looking a reaction from me but I refused to lower myself to that level.

He'll go down a hero in my eyes!

Good man, smile, say nothing and move on with your day.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: ardchieftain on March 22, 2017, 07:20:09 PM
Quote from: illdecide on March 22, 2017, 03:24:01 PM
I too grew up in the early 70's and TBh was directly effected by the troubles in my family, I remember the British Soldiers bursting our door down and raiding the house and I remember a solider kicking the castle i was playing with on the floor and it going into a thousand bits with me still bits in my hand. I remember getting to a teenager and starting to throw petrol/paint bombs and any missile i could get my hands on, I remember joining a Republican flute band and wanted to free Ireland and wanted to be like the older guys around the estate. I think what hit home with my mother was the day someone set her down a copy of the "Republican News" with me on the front page parading in a military uniform in Derry was straw that broke the camel's back, from that moment on i was made to leave the band and every time a riot kicked off in the estate i was dragged in by the neck to the house. I grew up (kinda) and wised up (kinda) and when i look back now i realise how different things could have been.

Regarding Martin I have great respect for him and am thankful them men were around in the 70's growing up as there'd be very few of us left had they not taken up the armed struggle, i know some things happened that shouldn't have but i believe 95% of their targets were against the armed forces and loyalists. I think what he's done recently over the last 15 years is even more remarkable when u consider where he came from and what he was trying to achieve and for that i thank him, he showed great patience and is responsible for the peace we have today...

RIP Martin

We had similar experiences, though mine was in Armagh. When my parents found out i had joined the republican flute band my Da gave me a hiding. Things like getting the house raided and the army searching my schoolbag and throwing the contents all over the town centre led to me becoming very angry. Confused too by my parents reaction. Many of my friends from school and local area ended up serving time or being killed and i often look back and think, that could have been me. Luckily we moved to the countryside when i was 14, to a unionist area, which saved me from going down a road of no return. By the time i got to my late teens i didn't even consider myself republican anymore. I've never voted sinn fein but Martin McGuinness always came across as someone genuine. The troubles had reached a dead end and people like McGuinness had the vision and courage to travel a new road. rest easy marty
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: vallankumous on March 22, 2017, 07:42:03 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on March 22, 2017, 11:37:05 AM
Irony and amputated history
by Jude Collins on March 22, 2017

Perhaps most ironic of all,  there was little or no stress placed on what should have been an obvious question: what motivated Martin McGuinness and thousands like him to resort to violence? Was he programmed that way? Were all those IRA men and women motivated by blood-lust and hatred,  a blood-lust and hatred that suddenly boiled over for no reason in the early 1970s and continued for the next two decades, until they they suddenly decided they didn't want to hate and spill blood any more?

It can't be stressed often enough: people like McGuinness joined the IRA knowing that their chances of being killed or imprisoned were very high. And yet they did it. Such a decision must have been motivated by something. Fifty years of unionist misrule? Attacks by the RUC and B Specials on civil rights marchers?  The beating to death by the RUC of Catholic man Sammy Devenney, in his own home, in front of his children, because he had dared to participate in a civil rights march?




When I hear of people who work in Counter Terrorism I always think of this point. Sadly there TVs are full of comments  from people involved in Counter Terrorism tonight.

I think if you are working in Counter Terrorism in London or New York or Paris your really working in Terrorism Limitation. It can not be countered in such places. It can only be countered by the relationships built between communities in all corners of the world. For Ireland it was on the roads around south Armagh, the Bog Side, East Tyrone, West Belfast (on the nationalist side) etc. Anyone sitting in London or Dublin putting in security measures around a border or city buildings were too late. They were involved in limitation measures only.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: trileacman on March 22, 2017, 09:34:54 PM
I understand what drive men of the 60's and 70's to join the IRA but I can't countenance some of their actions once they had joined it. Had they stuck to strictly military or strategic targets most of that would have been defensible but most of the time innocents were targeted. What did the deaths of Nicholas Knatchbull or Paul Maxwell have to do with republicanism or Irish independence? Posters regularly round on Fearon when he defends how the church abused and caused the deaths of hundreds of children but yet can find room to defend the IRA who were complicit in the deaths of many innocent women and children. Many here have recounted stories about the troubles but no amount of harassment at UDR checkpoints or guns being waved in your face is worth the lives of innocent children.

Leaving that aside, I had great time for Martin McGuinness. Too much has been made of his chuckle brother routine with Paisley and using Paisley as a counter-point. His nearest equivalent would have been David Ervine who was also also a paramilitary turned politician and also a man whom held my respect. To their credit both seen the futility of the bloodshed and had a humility in the post-troubles years that to me dictated a sense of remorse for the years of slaughter. That humility I find lacking in Adams, Robinson, Foster and to a certain extent Paisley who all appear/appeared to think that the peace process was their accomplishment as opposed to how they should feel; that the troubles was their fault.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: grounded on March 22, 2017, 09:46:20 PM
That article from Jude Collins hits the nail on the head. In particular the fact that Trimble and Robinson had to wait until he was dead before they could utter a positive sentiment about the man.
            In a way it sort of sums up the entire Unionist mindset of not an inch and lie down croppie. During the peace process Martin genuinely tried to reach out to the other side of the community. He tried to put himself in their shoes took risks and pushed the boundaries of his own Republicanism in order to show good faith and keep the peace.
            Look at what happened to any Unionist leader who ' did a Lundy ' . Trimble got the boot for the timmerity of attempting to power share. Eventually Paisley got the same treatment for daring to have a friendly relationship with Martin. And last but not least magic Mike got the boot for merely saying he would give his second preference to a party from the other side of the house.
             The very fact that our previous first minister has yet to ' decide if ' she would attend the funeral of her deputy first minister is all part of the same aul backward looking mindset.          Not that i would highly rate his intellect but sadly i'd say Jamie ' flegger' Bryson's views on Nationalism would broadly be in line with the majority of Loyalists and Unionism when he said that ' Sinn Fein are great at trying to reach out to Unionists but they dont really mean it as secretly they still want a United Ireland and that these acts of friendship were just another strategy'. Sadly with a few notable exceptions that is the Unionist mentality. They see it as a sign of weakness, when in fact reaching out to a future Nationalist majority is exactly what they should do. But alas they can't see the elephant in the room.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: general_lee on March 22, 2017, 10:22:13 PM
Willie Frazer reckons he's going to the local council buildings to tear the pages out of the book(s) of condolence for McGuinness.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Syferus on March 22, 2017, 10:27:11 PM
Quote from: grounded on March 22, 2017, 09:46:20 PM
That article from Jude Collins hits the nail on the head. In particular the fact that Trimble and Robinson had to wait until he was dead before they could utter a positive sentiment about the man.
            In a way it sort of sums up the entire Unionist mindset of not an inch and lie down croppie. During the peace process Martin genuinely tried to reach out to the other side of the community. He tried to put himself in their shoes took risks and pushed the boundaries of his own Republicanism in order to show good faith and keep the peace.
            Look at what happened to any Unionist leader who ' did a Lundy ' . Trimble got the boot for the timmerity of attempting to power share. Eventually Paisley got the same treatment for daring to have a friendly relationship with Martin. And last but not least magic Mike got the boot for merely saying he would give his second preference to a party from the other side of the house.
             The very fact that our previous first minister has yet to ' decide if ' she would attend the funeral of her deputy first minister is all part of the same aul backward looking mindset.          Not that i would highly rate his intellect but sadly i'd say Jamie ' flegger' Bryson's views on Nationalism would broadly be in line with the majority of Loyalists and Unionism when he said that ' Sinn Fein are great at trying to reach out to Unionists but they dont really mean it as secretly they still want a United Ireland and that these acts of friendship were just another strategy'. Sadly with a few notable exceptions that is the Unionist mentality. They see it as a sign of weakness, when in fact reaching out to a future Nationalist majority is exactly what they should do. But alas they can't see the elephant in the room.

The buck plannng to blow unionists up a few years earlier would hardly find many friends in the unionist camp no matter how much he tried to reach out. It's not him that should have been in a position of power to begin with in the nationalist movement.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 22, 2017, 10:34:43 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 22, 2017, 10:22:13 PM
Willie Frazer reckons he's going to the local council buildings to tear the pages out of the book(s) of condolence for McGuinness.

I was wondering when Wullie would pop up.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: grounded on March 22, 2017, 10:46:31 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 22, 2017, 10:27:11 PM
Quote from: grounded on March 22, 2017, 09:46:20 PM
That article from Jude Collins hits the nail on the head. In particular the fact that Trimble and Robinson had to wait until he was dead before they could utter a positive sentiment about the man.
            In a way it sort of sums up the entire Unionist mindset of not an inch and lie down croppie. During the peace process Martin genuinely tried to reach out to the other side of the community. He tried to put himself in their shoes took risks and pushed the boundaries of his own Republicanism in order to show good faith and keep the peace.
            Look at what happened to any Unionist leader who ' did a Lundy ' . Trimble got the boot for the timmerity of attempting to power share. Eventually Paisley got the same treatment for daring to have a friendly relationship with Martin. And last but not least magic Mike got the boot for merely saying he would give his second preference to a party from the other side of the house.
             The very fact that our previous first minister has yet to ' decide if ' she would attend the funeral of her deputy first minister is all part of the same aul backward looking mindset.          Not that i would highly rate his intellect but sadly i'd say Jamie ' flegger' Bryson's views on Nationalism would broadly be in line with the majority of Loyalists and Unionism when he said that ' Sinn Fein are great at trying to reach out to Unionists but they dont really mean it as secretly they still want a United Ireland and that these acts of friendship were just another strategy'. Sadly with a few notable exceptions that is the Unionist mentality. They see it as a sign of weakness, when in fact reaching out to a future Nationalist majority is exactly what they should do. But alas they can't see the elephant in the room.

The buck plannng to blow unionists up a few years earlier would hardly find many friends in the unionist camp no matter how much he tried to reach out. It's not him that should have been in a position of power to begin with in the nationalist movement.

I think you've manage to miss the entire point of Jude's blog and my post.
     Anyway Who was the buck or buckos that planted the first bombs of the ' troubles ' ? 
   
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: randomusername on March 22, 2017, 10:48:58 PM
Quote from: trileacman on March 22, 2017, 09:34:54 PM
I understand what drive men of the 60's and 70's to join the IRA but I can't countenance some of their actions once they had joined it. Had they stuck to strictly military or strategic targets most of that would have been defensible but most of the time innocents were targeted. What did the deaths of Nicholas Knatchbull or Paul Maxwell have to do with republicanism or Irish independence? Posters regularly round on Fearon when he defends how the church abused and caused the deaths of hundreds of children but yet can find room to defend the IRA who were complicit in the deaths of many innocent women and children. Many here have recounted stories about the troubles but no amount of harassment at UDR checkpoints or guns being waved in your face is worth the lives of innocent children.

Leaving that aside, I had great time for Martin McGuinness. Too much has been made of his chuckle brother routine with Paisley and using Paisley as a counter-point. His nearest equivalent would have been David Ervine who was also also a paramilitary turned politician and also a man whom held my respect. To their credit both seen the futility of the bloodshed and had a humility in the post-troubles years that to me dictated a sense of remorse for the years of slaughter. That humility I find lacking in Adams, Robinson, Foster and to a certain extent Paisley who all appear/appeared to think that the peace process was their accomplishment as opposed to how they should feel; that the troubles was their fault.

It was a pretty desperate campaign really. I don't know how the people who killed Patsy Gillespie for example can sleep at night. My pal's dad was shot dead in front of him because he supplied the british army with construction materials. His lack of bitterness amazes me, I'd never get over it. This was in the early nineties and it just seems like a desperate waste of life.

I guess I'm republican - or staunchly nationalist anyway - but I find it very hard to justify and I'd be skeptical enough about Adams and McGuinness' intentions throughout it all. It's something I grapple with anyway.

Only for unionist intransigence, blatant discrimination and british arrogance the whole thing would have been avoided though.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: stew on March 22, 2017, 10:56:59 PM
Quote from: grounded on March 22, 2017, 10:46:31 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 22, 2017, 10:27:11 PM
Quote from: grounded on March 22, 2017, 09:46:20 PM
That article from Jude Collins hits the nail on the head. In particular the fact that Trimble and Robinson had to wait until he was dead before they could utter a positive sentiment about the man.
            In a way it sort of sums up the entire Unionist mindset of not an inch and lie down croppie. During the peace process Martin genuinely tried to reach out to the other side of the community. He tried to put himself in their shoes took risks and pushed the boundaries of his own Republicanism in order to show good faith and keep the peace.
            Look at what happened to any Unionist leader who ' did a Lundy ' . Trimble got the boot for the timmerity of attempting to power share. Eventually Paisley got the same treatment for daring to have a friendly relationship with Martin. And last but not least magic Mike got the boot for merely saying he would give his second preference to a party from the other side of the house.
             The very fact that our previous first minister has yet to ' decide if ' she would attend the funeral of her deputy first minister is all part of the same aul backward looking mindset.          Not that i would highly rate his intellect but sadly i'd say Jamie ' flegger' Bryson's views on Nationalism would broadly be in line with the majority of Loyalists and Unionism when he said that ' Sinn Fein are great at trying to reach out to Unionists but they dont really mean it as secretly they still want a United Ireland and that these acts of friendship were just another strategy'. Sadly with a few notable exceptions that is the Unionist mentality. They see it as a sign of weakness, when in fact reaching out to a future Nationalist majority is exactly what they should do. But alas they can't see the elephant in the room.

The buck plannng to blow unionists up a few years earlier would hardly find many friends in the unionist camp no matter how much he tried to reach out. It's not him that should have been in a position of power to begin with in the nationalist movement.

I think you've manage to miss the entire point of Jude's blog and my post.
     Anyway Who was the buck or buckos that planted the first bombs of the ' troubles ' ? 
   

First bombs or last it does not matter, bombs would have been unnecessary if the british had treated Catholics with a modicum of decency, they didnt and the result was decades of midery that impacted every family one way or the other.


The neanderthal that is Arlene Foster cannot decide to go to a fuckin funeral of a colleague she worked with because he was the leader of the IRA back in the day even though he helped bring us peace, hopefully the coming generations are a bit more enlightened than mine and get over the shit they never lived through.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Windmill abu on March 23, 2017, 12:52:51 AM
I come from a Republican background (Sinn Fein). My wife is from a Nationalist background (SDLP). We both had uncles shot dead during the troubles and our political outlooks are very different. One thing we do agree on however is that when a Nationalist politician makes any kind of attempt at reconciliation with their Unionist counterparts it is in variably met with rejection and suspicion. Each time it happens one or other of us will say the same thing "You can't educate pork"
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 23, 2017, 07:34:53 AM
Quote from: Windmill abu on March 23, 2017, 12:52:51 AM
I come from a Republican background (Sinn Fein). My wife is from a Nationalist background (SDLP). We both had uncles shot dead during the troubles and our political outlooks are very different. One thing we do agree on however is that when a Nationalist politician makes any kind of attempt at reconciliation with their Unionist counterparts it is in variably met with rejection and suspicion. Each time it happens one or other of us will say the same thing "You can't educate pork"

David Ervine was an exception then
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 08:08:06 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 23, 2017, 07:34:53 AM
Quote from: Windmill abu on March 23, 2017, 12:52:51 AM
I come from a Republican background (Sinn Fein). My wife is from a Nationalist background (SDLP). We both had uncles shot dead during the troubles and our political outlooks are very different. One thing we do agree on however is that when a Nationalist politician makes any kind of attempt at reconciliation with their Unionist counterparts it is in variably met with rejection and suspicion. Each time it happens one or other of us will say the same thing "You can't educate pork"

David Ervine was an exception then

Sadly, that's very much the truth of it. Mike TV said that unionists could learn a lot from McGuinness' on how to reach out to the other community. Can't imagine many will have taken that well.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: vallankumous on March 23, 2017, 08:32:59 AM
Quote from: trileacman on March 22, 2017, 09:34:54 PM
I understand what drive men of the 60's and 70's to join the IRA but I can't countenance some of their actions once they had joined it. Had they stuck to strictly military or strategic targets most of that would have been defensible but most of the time innocents were targeted. What did the deaths of Nicholas Knatchbull or Paul Maxwell have to do with republicanism or Irish independence? Posters regularly round on Fearon when he defends how the church abused and caused the deaths of hundreds of children but yet can find room to defend the IRA who were complicit in the deaths of many innocent women and children. Many here have recounted stories about the troubles but no amount of harassment at UDR checkpoints or guns being waved in your face is worth the lives of innocent children.

Leaving that aside, I had great time for Martin McGuinness. Too much has been made of his chuckle brother routine with Paisley and using Paisley as a counter-point. His nearest equivalent would have been David Ervine who was also also a paramilitary turned politician and also a man whom held my respect. To their credit both seen the futility of the bloodshed and had a humility in the post-troubles years that to me dictated a sense of remorse for the years of slaughter. That humility I find lacking in Adams, Robinson, Foster and to a certain extent Paisley who all appear/appeared to think that the peace process was their accomplishment as opposed to how they should feel; that the troubles was their fault.

Sadly the highlighted part is not the case.
There were many bad decisions and bad actions. Running the risk of being seen as heartless I do want to add some context.

The IRA were hailed as a major organised and guerrilla army. In reality they were not. This was a tag given to them to justify failed British policy and British Army actions.
Many actions carried out by the IRA were done by young men and women who were terrified, unskilled, angry and revengeful. A potent mix for disaster.
Your comment above is sweeping. I can't fathom that anyone ever thought they were going to kill children. Especially an 18 year old and a 19 year old who  tried to take a bomb to a Courthouse in a town they didn't know through a landscape peppered with military security and intelligence.

While you isolate child victims you omit so much else of the context. Regardless if you agree or not history tells us you are wrong. Harassment at check points, in prisons, at protests, in you home, at your place of work (not to mention murder) is cause for for violent reaction. Loyalists were also subject to this and their violent actions in return to IRA actions was also understandable in the real lives of those young people.

There is mountains of evidence of children being indirectly killed when guns and bombs are used in violent response. It's a global reality and it's terrifying. In my view that reality will never become a barrier to people engaging in armed conflict.


It's documented that Martin McGuinness was the top IRA man in Derry at 22 years old. I'd be surprised if he was commanding experienced or trained military personel.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 23, 2017, 08:51:52 AM
Quote from: vallankumous on March 23, 2017, 08:32:59 AM
Quote from: trileacman on March 22, 2017, 09:34:54 PM
I understand what drive men of the 60's and 70's to join the IRA but I can't countenance some of their actions once they had joined it. Had they stuck to strictly military or strategic targets most of that would have been defensible but most of the time innocents were targeted. What did the deaths of Nicholas Knatchbull or Paul Maxwell have to do with republicanism or Irish independence? Posters regularly round on Fearon when he defends how the church abused and caused the deaths of hundreds of children but yet can find room to defend the IRA who were complicit in the deaths of many innocent women and children. Many here have recounted stories about the troubles but no amount of harassment at UDR checkpoints or guns being waved in your face is worth the lives of innocent children.

Leaving that aside, I had great time for Martin McGuinness. Too much has been made of his chuckle brother routine with Paisley and using Paisley as a counter-point. His nearest equivalent would have been David Ervine who was also also a paramilitary turned politician and also a man whom held my respect. To their credit both seen the futility of the bloodshed and had a humility in the post-troubles years that to me dictated a sense of remorse for the years of slaughter. That humility I find lacking in Adams, Robinson, Foster and to a certain extent Paisley who all appear/appeared to think that the peace process was their accomplishment as opposed to how they should feel; that the troubles was their fault.

Sadly the highlighted part is not the case.
There were many bad decisions and bad actions. Running the risk of being seen as heartless I do want to add some context.

The IRA were hailed as a major organised and guerrilla army. In reality they were not. This was a tag given to them to justify failed British policy and British Army actions.
Many actions carried out by the IRA were done by young men and women who were terrified, unskilled, angry and revengeful. A potent mix for disaster.
Your comment above is sweeping. I can't fathom that anyone ever thought they were going to kill children. Especially an 18 year old and a 19 year old who  tried to take a bomb to a Courthouse in a town they didn't know through a landscape peppered with military security and intelligence.

While you isolate child victims you omit so much else of the context. Regardless if you agree or not history tells us you are wrong. Harassment at check points, in prisons, at protests, in you home, at your place of work (not to mention murder) is cause for for violent reaction. Loyalists were also subject to this and their violent actions in return to IRA actions was also understandable in the real lives of those young people.

It's documented that Martin McGuinness was the top IRA man in Derry at 22 years old.
One aspect of the adoption of violence is that it is hard to turn it off
Another aspect is that it elevates sociopaths to positions they do not have in civilian life.

NI has always been dysfunctional. It would have been much better to restructure things in the 60s but the Unionists didn't want to.
Maybe the violence was inevitable. It wasn't sustainable. And there was an awful lot of cruelty on both sides. 
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 08:56:01 AM
What the reaction to his death shows is that unionists haven't changed much at all, still refusing to accept the role they and the British state played in the collapse of their little sectarian statelet - it was just all the nationalists causing trouble.

I've heard some talk about the rewriting of history, and I suspect thats why Arlene and her ilk make such a fuss about doing anything that could be interpreted as reaching out, its a correcting of history, not a rewriting.

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 23, 2017, 09:05:10 AM
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/no-paramilitary-trappings-at-mcguinness-funeral-1-7879517
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: vallankumous on March 23, 2017, 10:37:47 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 08:56:01 AM
What the reaction to his death shows is that unionists haven't changed much at all, still refusing to accept the role they and the British state played in the collapse of their little sectarian statelet - it was just all the nationalists causing trouble.

I've heard some talk about the rewriting of history, and I suspect thats why Arlene and her ilk make such a fuss about doing anything that could be interpreted as reaching out, its a correcting of history, not a rewriting.

I find it very difficult to find a link between the language used by Unionist leaders and my Unionist friends. I think Unionist leadership is slightly behind the curve on much of this.
In contrast I think when Paisley died the Nationalist and Republican leadership acted in a way that was a reflection of the larger community they represent.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Rossfan on March 23, 2017, 11:01:49 AM
Unionist "leaders" always seem to start from the standpoint of what the most backward extremist thinks.
Like Arlene's prevarication over going to Martin's funeral.
She should of course have said "I'm going because it is the right, proper and decent thing to do"
She took one step forward in her Assembly speech yesterday.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 23, 2017, 11:03:45 AM
Quote from: seafoid on March 22, 2017, 11:25:55 AM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 22, 2017, 10:48:59 AM
Quote from: seafoid on March 22, 2017, 10:00:16 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 22, 2017, 09:18:11 AM
I see Arlene is undecided whether or not she's attending the funeral...
It's maybe not that surprising. There might be some political theatre by the boys in front of the coffin.
Maybe the DUP heads will go to the removal or find some other way out.

Any political/military theatre would be wrong but I don't think it will happen.

It would be appalling indictment on Foster if she cannot bring herself to attend her working colleague's funeral.  Using a fear of what others will do it is an excuse.  She might find Martin's actions over his life distasteful or wrong (lots of discussion here) but she has a duty as outgoing First Minister to represent the people whom Martin represented. 

It's like the famous soccer matches in France.  She is entitled to be an OWC supporter and have no private interest in the Republic but as First Minister she has a job to represent all of Northern Ireland.  Going to the match would have been a small thing but would reflect that.

Since devolution, that penny only seemed to have dropped for Paisley.  To me it's a failure of Unionist Leadership.  Martin at least tried to reach out (whether it was accepted/believed is another question) to all his constituents.

For a lot of people it would be just one more blot on the copy book of Foster if she doesn't go.  Also I hope that Sinn Féin leadership reflect on what Martin McGuinness brought in terms of leadership and in coming weeks, follow his example.

Ar dheis dé go raibh a anam.

/Jim.

She is quite small minded.


If she wants to be a leader she need to put her personal small-mindedness aside in the context of being DUP Leader and First Minister.  She has not demonstrated the ability to do that.

Today the supposedly de facto Leader of Northern Ireland and unionism should go and respect her colleague and nationalist leader and not get side-tracked on issues of "trappings". 

She says she wants to go so time to tell her party that she is taking a lead and going.  In her own tribal context that maybe a risk (because even a tricolour will be call a "trapping" by some in her community) but leaders take risks: Like McGuinness often did.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: screenexile on March 23, 2017, 11:17:07 AM
She's going . . .

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/arlene-foster-to-attend-martin-mcguinness-funeral-mass-in-derry-35557125.html
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Quote from: seafoid on March 23, 2017, 08:51:52 AM
Quote from: vallankumous on March 23, 2017, 08:32:59 AM
Quote from: trileacman on March 22, 2017, 09:34:54 PM
I understand what drive men of the 60's and 70's to join the IRA but I can't countenance some of their actions once they had joined it. Had they stuck to strictly military or strategic targets most of that would have been defensible but most of the time innocents were targeted. What did the deaths of Nicholas Knatchbull or Paul Maxwell have to do with republicanism or Irish independence? Posters regularly round on Fearon when he defends how the church abused and caused the deaths of hundreds of children but yet can find room to defend the IRA who were complicit in the deaths of many innocent women and children. Many here have recounted stories about the troubles but no amount of harassment at UDR checkpoints or guns being waved in your face is worth the lives of innocent children.

Leaving that aside, I had great time for Martin McGuinness. Too much has been made of his chuckle brother routine with Paisley and using Paisley as a counter-point. His nearest equivalent would have been David Ervine who was also also a paramilitary turned politician and also a man whom held my respect. To their credit both seen the futility of the bloodshed and had a humility in the post-troubles years that to me dictated a sense of remorse for the years of slaughter. That humility I find lacking in Adams, Robinson, Foster and to a certain extent Paisley who all appear/appeared to think that the peace process was their accomplishment as opposed to how they should feel; that the troubles was their fault.

Sadly the highlighted part is not the case.
There were many bad decisions and bad actions. Running the risk of being seen as heartless I do want to add some context.

The IRA were hailed as a major organised and guerrilla army. In reality they were not. This was a tag given to them to justify failed British policy and British Army actions.
Many actions carried out by the IRA were done by young men and women who were terrified, unskilled, angry and revengeful. A potent mix for disaster.
Your comment above is sweeping. I can't fathom that anyone ever thought they were going to kill children. Especially an 18 year old and a 19 year old who  tried to take a bomb to a Courthouse in a town they didn't know through a landscape peppered with military security and intelligence.

While you isolate child victims you omit so much else of the context. Regardless if you agree or not history tells us you are wrong. Harassment at check points, in prisons, at protests, in you home, at your place of work (not to mention murder) is cause for for violent reaction. Loyalists were also subject to this and their violent actions in return to IRA actions was also understandable in the real lives of those young people.

It's documented that Martin McGuinness was the top IRA man in Derry at 22 years old.
One aspect of the adoption of violence is that it is hard to turn it off
Another aspect is that it elevates sociopaths to positions they do not have in civilian life.

NI has always been dysfunctional. It would have been much better to restructure things in the 60s but the Unionists didn't want to.
Maybe the violence was inevitable. It wasn't sustainable. And there was an awful lot of cruelty on both sides.

I wrote a dissertation on the gerrymandering of post-war public housing in rural areas and in my research I realised that change was on the way at the start of the troubles but it was far too late and slow to stop what was already set in motion. ie. the Housing Executive was in place by 1972. However, I think that if the Civil Rights movement had started 10 years earlier then the troubles would also have started 10 years earlier. It was always inevitable that violence would follow the Civil Rights movement when change didn't happen fast enough.

Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: JohnDenver on March 23, 2017, 12:00:16 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

One thing for certain, it can never be proven one way or another - I'm sure there are plenty of arguments to support it's necessity and effectiveness in bringing us to the current climate.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:48:11 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on March 23, 2017, 10:37:47 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 08:56:01 AM
What the reaction to his death shows is that unionists haven't changed much at all, still refusing to accept the role they and the British state played in the collapse of their little sectarian statelet - it was just all the nationalists causing trouble.

I've heard some talk about the rewriting of history, and I suspect thats why Arlene and her ilk make such a fuss about doing anything that could be interpreted as reaching out, its a correcting of history, not a rewriting.

I find it very difficult to find a link between the language used by Unionist leaders and my Unionist friends. I think Unionist leadership is slightly behind the curve on much of this.
In contrast I think when Paisley died the Nationalist and Republican leadership acted in a way that was a reflection of the larger community they represent.

Your unionist friends probably speak very differently regarding it to you that they do to each other. I know my unionist friends do anyway.

Amongst moderate unionism, the narrative is that 'hes changed' and deserves credit for that. But I resent that narrative as much as the one that hes evil.  It suggests that he started the fight, which wasn't good, but in fairness to him saw the error of his ways and brought it to a close, which dismisses everything he stood for, and everything that occurred during the troubles. The fact is, unionists have to recognise our narrative on an equal footing to their own and they refuse, or are unable, to do so. 
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?

It wasn't necessary in achieving equality for Catholics and I don't think it was effective in protecting communities either on both sides and didn't stop innocent civilians getting killed in crossfire. It just turned into tit for tat killings some of which were extremely sinister. Obviously it didn't achieve a United Ireland either.

It was good for keeping drugs off the streets and policing very deprived communities but that's about it for me.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Syferus on March 23, 2017, 01:26:52 PM
Quote from: grounded on March 22, 2017, 10:46:31 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 22, 2017, 10:27:11 PM
Quote from: grounded on March 22, 2017, 09:46:20 PM
That article from Jude Collins hits the nail on the head. In particular the fact that Trimble and Robinson had to wait until he was dead before they could utter a positive sentiment about the man.
            In a way it sort of sums up the entire Unionist mindset of not an inch and lie down croppie. During the peace process Martin genuinely tried to reach out to the other side of the community. He tried to put himself in their shoes took risks and pushed the boundaries of his own Republicanism in order to show good faith and keep the peace.
            Look at what happened to any Unionist leader who ' did a Lundy ' . Trimble got the boot for the timmerity of attempting to power share. Eventually Paisley got the same treatment for daring to have a friendly relationship with Martin. And last but not least magic Mike got the boot for merely saying he would give his second preference to a party from the other side of the house.
             The very fact that our previous first minister has yet to ' decide if ' she would attend the funeral of her deputy first minister is all part of the same aul backward looking mindset.          Not that i would highly rate his intellect but sadly i'd say Jamie ' flegger' Bryson's views on Nationalism would broadly be in line with the majority of Loyalists and Unionism when he said that ' Sinn Fein are great at trying to reach out to Unionists but they dont really mean it as secretly they still want a United Ireland and that these acts of friendship were just another strategy'. Sadly with a few notable exceptions that is the Unionist mentality. They see it as a sign of weakness, when in fact reaching out to a future Nationalist majority is exactly what they should do. But alas they can't see the elephant in the room.

The buck plannng to blow unionists up a few years earlier would hardly find many friends in the unionist camp no matter how much he tried to reach out. It's not him that should have been in a position of power to begin with in the nationalist movement.

I think you've manage to miss the entire point of Jude's blog and my post.
     Anyway Who was the buck or buckos that planted the first bombs of the ' troubles ' ? 
   

Does it matter who planted the first ones? It's not the moderate unionists that he was trying to court either way. McGuiness heading up a peace process was like Timothy McVey leading an IED safety committee.

What's fûcked the north now was the hardline parties on both sides seizing power in the toxic environment that exsisted in the Troubles.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Man Marker on March 23, 2017, 01:30:09 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?

It wasn't necessary in achieving equality for Catholics and I don't think it was effective in protecting communities either on both sides and didn't stop innocent civilians getting killed in crossfire. It just turned into tit for tat killings some of which were extremely sinister. Obviously it didn't achieve a United Ireland either.

It was good for keeping drugs off the streets and policing very deprived communities but that's about it for me.

so you believe that Unionists would have started to share power with their catholic neighbours out of good will. lol

Well my view is that the British were brought to the peace table as a result of the war and particularly the attacks that were being specifically targeted in England, which were becoming more regular towards the latter end of the troubles.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: leenie on March 23, 2017, 01:38:24 PM
Martin McGuinness,' funeral will be aired on rte news now from 2pm
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:50:18 PM
Quote from: Man Marker on March 23, 2017, 01:30:09 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?

It wasn't necessary in achieving equality for Catholics and I don't think it was effective in protecting communities either on both sides and didn't stop innocent civilians getting killed in crossfire. It just turned into tit for tat killings some of which were extremely sinister. Obviously it didn't achieve a United Ireland either.

It was good for keeping drugs off the streets and policing very deprived communities but that's about it for me.

so you believe that Unionists would have started to share power with their catholic neighbours out of good will. lol

Well my view is that the British were brought to the peace table as a result of the war and particularly the attacks that were being specifically targeted in England, which were becoming more regular towards the latter end of the troubles.

Power sharing didn't come until armed struggle ended. 30 years after it started! None of us can be 100% certain but I think it would have taken less than 30 years without violence.

Equality in terms of housing and jobs (public sector at least) came in the first half of the conflict but by then it was too late. And that equality was thanks in a large part to the first generation of educated Catholics and not the ra.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?

It wasn't necessary in achieving equality for Catholics and I don't think it was effective in protecting communities either on both sides and didn't stop innocent civilians getting killed in crossfire. It just turned into tit for tat killings some of which were extremely sinister. Obviously it didn't achieve a United Ireland either.

It was good for keeping drugs off the streets and policing very deprived communities but that's about it for me.

I think you missed the point. What happened the civil rights marches?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: JohnDenver on March 23, 2017, 01:54:40 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:50:18 PM
Quote from: Man Marker on March 23, 2017, 01:30:09 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?

It wasn't necessary in achieving equality for Catholics and I don't think it was effective in protecting communities either on both sides and didn't stop innocent civilians getting killed in crossfire. It just turned into tit for tat killings some of which were extremely sinister. Obviously it didn't achieve a United Ireland either.

It was good for keeping drugs off the streets and policing very deprived communities but that's about it for me.

so you believe that Unionists would have started to share power with their catholic neighbours out of good will. lol

Well my view is that the British were brought to the peace table as a result of the war and particularly the attacks that were being specifically targeted in England, which were becoming more regular towards the latter end of the troubles.

Power sharing didn't come until armed struggle ended. 30 years after it started! None of us can be 100% certain but I think it would have taken less than 30 years without violence.

Equality in terms of housing and jobs (public sector at least) came in the first half of the conflict but by then it was too late. And that equality was thanks in a large part to the first generation of educated Catholics and not the ra.

You've changed your tune from the "proven" theory earlier.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Man Marker on March 23, 2017, 01:57:42 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:50:18 PM
Quote from: Man Marker on March 23, 2017, 01:30:09 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?

It wasn't necessary in achieving equality for Catholics and I don't think it was effective in protecting communities either on both sides and didn't stop innocent civilians getting killed in crossfire. It just turned into tit for tat killings some of which were extremely sinister. Obviously it didn't achieve a United Ireland either.

It was good for keeping drugs off the streets and policing very deprived communities but that's about it for me.

so you believe that Unionists would have started to share power with their catholic neighbours out of good will. lol

Well my view is that the British were brought to the peace table as a result of the war and particularly the attacks that were being specifically targeted in England, which were becoming more regular towards the latter end of the troubles.

Power sharing didn't come until armed struggle ended. 30 years after it started! None of us can be 100% certain but I think it would have taken less than 30 years without violence.

Equality in terms of housing and jobs (public sector at least) came in the first half of the conflict but by then it was too late. And that equality was thanks in a large part to the first generation of educated Catholics and not the ra.

So you do believe that Unionists would have started to share power with their catholic neighbours out of the goodness of their hearts. lol
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 01:57:48 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:50:18 PM

Power sharing didn't come until armed struggle ended. 30 years after it started! None of us can be 100% certain but I think it would have taken less than 30 years without violence.

Equality in terms of housing and jobs (public sector at least) came in the first half of the conflict but by then it was too late. And that equality was thanks in a large part to the first generation of educated Catholics and not the ra.

It would never have come voluntarily.

It was too late by 50 years ffs, not because the conflict was underway at that stage, as you seem to suggest.

What did being peaceable and doing what they were told do for nationalists pre troubles?

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: Man Marker on March 23, 2017, 01:57:42 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:50:18 PM
Quote from: Man Marker on March 23, 2017, 01:30:09 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?

It wasn't necessary in achieving equality for Catholics and I don't think it was effective in protecting communities either on both sides and didn't stop innocent civilians getting killed in crossfire. It just turned into tit for tat killings some of which were extremely sinister. Obviously it didn't achieve a United Ireland either.

It was good for keeping drugs off the streets and policing very deprived communities but that's about it for me.

so you believe that Unionists would have started to share power with their catholic neighbours out of good will. lol

Well my view is that the British were brought to the peace table as a result of the war and particularly the attacks that were being specifically targeted in England, which were becoming more regular towards the latter end of the troubles.

Power sharing didn't come until armed struggle ended. 30 years after it started! None of us can be 100% certain but I think it would have taken less than 30 years without violence.

Equality in terms of housing and jobs (public sector at least) came in the first half of the conflict but by then it was too late. And that equality was thanks in a large part to the first generation of educated Catholics and not the ra.

So you do believe that Unionists would have started to share power with their catholic neighbours out of the goodness of their hearts. lol

Do you think they started sharing power out of fear? lol
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Fuzzman on March 23, 2017, 02:00:02 PM
Arlene got a big round of applause when she took her seat
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-northern-ireland-39365921
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 02:03:19 PM
Sweet mother of f**k, she did not?!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: vallankumous on March 23, 2017, 02:04:52 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:50:18 PM

Power sharing didn't come until armed struggle ended. 30 years after it started! None of us can be 100% certain but I think it would have taken less than 30 years without violence.

Equality in terms of housing and jobs (public sector at least) came in the first half of the conflict but by then it was too late. And that equality was thanks in a large part to the first generation of educated Catholics and not the ra.

Inequality was present for longer than the armed conflict. The Civil rights campaign was not the beginning of the inequality, it was in response to it. It is taken as a starting point to fuzz the reality. The impact of generations of inequality can not be switched off in a single decade.

Every decade is preceded by many decades that impact on it. Now we are still seeing an impact of events in the 70s and 80s. In the 70s and 80s it was an impact from events in the 40s. In the 50s it was the impact of events in the 20s and so on.
Go back as far you need, you'll see longer periods of inequality than violence.
We are partly a product of the experience of our parents and grandparent as the next generation will be.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 02:06:16 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?

It wasn't necessary in achieving equality for Catholics and I don't think it was effective in protecting communities either on both sides and didn't stop innocent civilians getting killed in crossfire. It just turned into tit for tat killings some of which were extremely sinister. Obviously it didn't achieve a United Ireland either.

It was good for keeping drugs off the streets and policing very deprived communities but that's about it for me.

I think you missed the point. What happened the civil rights marches?

They took hidings from the police and of course Bloody Sunday but they were seriously effective as a propaganda tool!! More effective than any bomb ever planted! If the IRA hadn't taken over and Civil Rights movement continued I've no doubt that it would have taken much less than 30 years.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: vallankumous on March 23, 2017, 02:08:05 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 02:03:19 PM
Sweet mother of f**k, she did not?!

I think that's nice. In context though, it seems many attendees got that warm welcome to the bogside. It was nice not to single her out by not affording her a warm welcome.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 02:10:34 PM
I saw the context which doesn't make it as bad. I still can't stand the **** however, and resent her posturing over all this. Despicable
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 02:12:13 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 02:06:16 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?

It wasn't necessary in achieving equality for Catholics and I don't think it was effective in protecting communities either on both sides and didn't stop innocent civilians getting killed in crossfire. It just turned into tit for tat killings some of which were extremely sinister. Obviously it didn't achieve a United Ireland either.

It was good for keeping drugs off the streets and policing very deprived communities but that's about it for me.

I think you missed the point. What happened the civil rights marches?

They took hidings from the police and of course Bloody Sunday but they were seriously effective as a propaganda tool!! More effective than any bomb ever planted! If the IRA hadn't taken over and Civil Rights movement continued I've no doubt that it would have taken much less than 30 years.

;D You're an idiot, and a naive one at that
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 02:13:17 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 02:12:13 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 02:06:16 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?

It wasn't necessary in achieving equality for Catholics and I don't think it was effective in protecting communities either on both sides and didn't stop innocent civilians getting killed in crossfire. It just turned into tit for tat killings some of which were extremely sinister. Obviously it didn't achieve a United Ireland either.

It was good for keeping drugs off the streets and policing very deprived communities but that's about it for me.

I think you missed the point. What happened the civil rights marches?

They took hidings from the police and of course Bloody Sunday but they were seriously effective as a propaganda tool!! More effective than any bomb ever planted! If the IRA hadn't taken over and Civil Rights movement continued I've no doubt that it would have taken much less than 30 years.

;D You're an idiot, and a naive one at that

Are you willing to say that to my face?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: trileacman on March 23, 2017, 02:18:51 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 02:12:13 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 02:06:16 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?

It wasn't necessary in achieving equality for Catholics and I don't think it was effective in protecting communities either on both sides and didn't stop innocent civilians getting killed in crossfire. It just turned into tit for tat killings some of which were extremely sinister. Obviously it didn't achieve a United Ireland either.

It was good for keeping drugs off the streets and policing very deprived communities but that's about it for me.

I think you missed the point. What happened the civil rights marches?

They took hidings from the police and of course Bloody Sunday but they were seriously effective as a propaganda tool!! More effective than any bomb ever planted! If the IRA hadn't taken over and Civil Rights movement continued I've no doubt that it would have taken much less than 30 years.

;D You're an idiot, and a naive one at that

No he's not it's yourself who's deluded.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 02:24:45 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 02:13:17 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 02:12:13 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 02:06:16 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?

It wasn't necessary in achieving equality for Catholics and I don't think it was effective in protecting communities either on both sides and didn't stop innocent civilians getting killed in crossfire. It just turned into tit for tat killings some of which were extremely sinister. Obviously it didn't achieve a United Ireland either.

It was good for keeping drugs off the streets and policing very deprived communities but that's about it for me.

I think you missed the point. What happened the civil rights marches?

They took hidings from the police and of course Bloody Sunday but they were seriously effective as a propaganda tool!! More effective than any bomb ever planted! If the IRA hadn't taken over and Civil Rights movement continued I've no doubt that it would have taken much less than 30 years.

;D You're an idiot, and a naive one at that

Are you willing to say that to my face?

;D ;D ;D

The irony.

Right, you're not an idiot, on reflection it sounds like going out and getting battered and shot for propaganda uses is indeed an excellent tactic.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Man Marker on March 23, 2017, 02:24:54 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: Man Marker on March 23, 2017, 01:57:42 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:50:18 PM
Quote from: Man Marker on March 23, 2017, 01:30:09 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
Although violence was inevitable I think it's been proven that it was never really necessary.

Necessary for what?

And violence by whom?

It wasn't necessary in achieving equality for Catholics and I don't think it was effective in protecting communities either on both sides and didn't stop innocent civilians getting killed in crossfire. It just turned into tit for tat killings some of which were extremely sinister. Obviously it didn't achieve a United Ireland either.

It was good for keeping drugs off the streets and policing very deprived communities but that's about it for me.

so you believe that Unionists would have started to share power with their catholic neighbours out of good will. lol

Well my view is that the British were brought to the peace table as a result of the war and particularly the attacks that were being specifically targeted in England, which were becoming more regular towards the latter end of the troubles.

Power sharing didn't come until armed struggle ended. 30 years after it started! None of us can be 100% certain but I think it would have taken less than 30 years without violence.

Equality in terms of housing and jobs (public sector at least) came in the first half of the conflict but by then it was too late. And that equality was thanks in a large part to the first generation of educated Catholics and not the ra.

So you do believe that Unionists would have started to share power with their catholic neighbours out of the goodness of their hearts. lol

Do you think they started sharing power out of fear? lol

there is no evidence prior to the start of the troubles that Unionist would share power, in fact the evidence is overwhelmingly to maintain the status quo of serial discrimination
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 02:29:19 PM
Quote from: trileacman on March 23, 2017, 02:18:51 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 02:12:13 PM

;D You're an idiot, and a naive one at that

No he's not it's yourself who's deluded.

About what? In what respect? Put forward an argument that you feel demonstrates my delusion, and I'll give it due consideration.

Noone can predict the future, but the best way to judge future behaviour is by past behaviour - this is accepted in every walk of life. So explain why nationalists would have been treated like equals given the history of the state, not to mention the brutal reactions to their modest attempts to raise their issues.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: JohnDenver on March 23, 2017, 02:45:54 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 23, 2017, 02:24:45 PM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on March 23, 2017, 02:13:17 PM

Are you willing to say that to my face?

;D ;D ;D

The irony.


Brilliant, the pacifist inviting confrontation!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: The Trap on March 23, 2017, 02:51:03 PM
So far the funeral has been so dignified. Lets hope Adams doesn't ruin it at the graveside!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: armaghniac on March 23, 2017, 03:45:13 PM
It is a notable thing to have an ex US President give the talk at your funeral, not the usual thing.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 03:54:23 PM
Quote from: The Trap on March 23, 2017, 02:51:03 PM
So far the funeral has been so dignified. Lets hope Adams doesn't ruin it at the graveside!

Both Protestant clergymen and Clinton have spoken very well. No doubt Allister or his like will try to have a go but nobody important will be paying him any attention.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Hardy on March 23, 2017, 03:59:48 PM
Great speech by Clinton.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Fuzzman on March 23, 2017, 04:01:27 PM
I wonder will Arlene go to the grave
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 04:08:20 PM
Quote from: Hardy on March 23, 2017, 03:59:48 PM
Great speech by Clinton.

Masterful - reflective, honest, celebratory, funny, considerate, sensitive, tactful. All of the above and he got in a not so subtle reminder that there's work still to be done. Whatever people's thoughts on him over the years, Clinton has been a great friend of Ireland.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: armaghniac on March 23, 2017, 04:11:50 PM
Quote from: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 04:08:20 PM
Quote from: Hardy on March 23, 2017, 03:59:48 PM
Great speech by Clinton.

Masterful - reflective, honest, celebratory, funny, considerate, sensitive, tactful. All of the above and he got in a not so subtle reminder that there's work still to be done. Whatever people's thoughts on him over the years, Clinton has been a great friend of Ireland.

Clinton is a formidable operator and he contributed hugely to events in this country.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Fuzzman on March 23, 2017, 04:24:57 PM
Yeah was an amazing speech by Bill but you would imagine Arlene will not be at all impressed at how he's been portrayed as some sort of a hero and the main reason why peace was achieved.

I laughed when he congratulated Enda on his jibe at Trump too.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on March 23, 2017, 04:44:10 PM
Bill Clinton showing everything that is wrong with Donald Trump in his actions and words.

I've been following the events of the funeral and really regret not going over to Derry to be there. I can honestly say my heart is heavy today and I'm still in disbelieve he is gone. There has been a lot of talk on this thread about Martin and his past and why he did what he did etc....but that is not for today. There is plenty of time to dissect that over the coming weeks and months.

Martin was a rare gem of a politician who had the ordinary touch. He will be sorely missed on this wee island.

Rest in Peace Martin.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: sid waddell on March 23, 2017, 04:52:00 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on March 23, 2017, 04:44:10 PM
Bill Clinton showing everything that is wrong with Donald Trump in his actions and words.

Bill Clinton showed right there how words matter.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 05:06:59 PM
Read on Boards that RTE News Now will go back for Adams' graveside oration. Anyone able to confirm?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: leenie on March 23, 2017, 05:11:32 PM
Yes they are, coming up on side of news they will return back when coffin arrives
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: leenie on March 23, 2017, 05:32:21 PM
On now
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: yellowcard on March 23, 2017, 06:01:20 PM
Fantastic speech by Clinton, you can sense the genuine affinity he has with the Irish people and he said all the right things. He oozes authority and it is easy to see how he was one of the critical figures in trying to broker a deal all those years ago. He also managed to inadvertently massage Enda's ego when the main purpose was getting a dig in at Trump.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 06:11:22 PM
A bit rambling and incoherent from Gerry to be honest.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: stew on March 23, 2017, 06:26:49 PM
Quote from: Fuzzman on March 23, 2017, 04:01:27 PM
I wonder will Arlene go to the grave
She showed up, fair play to her for that!


Still a hateful cynt though.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: stew on March 23, 2017, 06:45:15 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on March 23, 2017, 06:01:20 PM
Fantastic speech by Clinton, you can sense the genuine affinity he has with the Irish people and he said all the right things. He oozes authority and it is easy to see how he was one of the critical figures in trying to broker a deal all those years ago. He also managed to inadvertently massage Enda's ego when the main purpose was getting a dig in at Trump.

Tremendous politician and someone who took no shit from the DUP and co when it mattered, legend.

One of the finest foreign policy Presidents of all time!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 23, 2017, 06:53:36 PM
A lovely ceremony. Clinton gave a great speech. The whole thing reminded me of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAh1oRoVS68
YMADAWIAD ARTHUR (The Death Of Arthur)

A gem-like light spread over Camlan
Gliding the sorrow of the battlefield
How beautiful at this moment
Was the cold stare of dead warriors.
Through blood and tight-packed
mounds of men
Bedevere carried Arthur,
Weakening now from the pain of wounds.

Bedevere walked without resting the heavy burden
Flushing his face, tightening his muscles;
There beneath him like a mirror of crystal
He saw a ship on the shining sea.

Chorus:
Be brave and pure
Suffer willingly
I go now to the fair Avalon

Yonder over the sea there is a tender land
Where there is no pain
The isle of Avalon where every soul
is free and content

Never will it be destroyed by faithlessness
Nor shame nor heartbreak.

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: armaghniac on March 23, 2017, 06:54:40 PM
Quote from: stew on March 23, 2017, 06:45:15 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on March 23, 2017, 06:01:20 PM
Fantastic speech by Clinton, you can sense the genuine affinity he has with the Irish people and he said all the right things. He oozes authority and it is easy to see how he was one of the critical figures in trying to broker a deal all those years ago. He also managed to inadvertently massage Enda's ego when the main purpose was getting a dig in at Trump.

Tremendous politician and someone who took no shit from the DUP and co when it mattered, legend.

One of the finest foreign policy Presidents of all time!

Sure even the dogs in the street recognise Clinton.

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2017/3/23/fa637f8c-e1ff-4a0a-9073-5c95c8b75c72.jpg)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 07:20:58 PM
Is that Alex Salmond at the bottom right?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: OgraAnDun on March 23, 2017, 07:21:37 PM
Quote from: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 07:20:58 PM
Is that Alex Salmond at the bottom right?


Yes.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 07:28:19 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on March 23, 2017, 07:21:37 PM
Quote from: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 07:20:58 PM
Is that Alex Salmond at the bottom right?


Yes.

Brokenshire must have felt surrounded on all sides. Good.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Harold Disgracey on March 23, 2017, 07:30:14 PM
In from work and watching Six One on RTE1+1 and they've yet to cover Martin McGuinness's funeral. Disappointing but not surprising.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 07:31:27 PM
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on March 23, 2017, 07:30:14 PM
In from work and watching Six One on RTE1+1 and they've yet to cover Martin McGuinness's funeral. Disappointing but not surprising.

Disappointing but in fairness to RTE, they broadcast it live.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: stew on March 23, 2017, 07:33:11 PM
Bladder every disrespect  intended but I have blocked your posts because you bore me, apologies if any of your drivel pertained to my posts, if not please ignore this post, cheers mate )
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: grounded on March 23, 2017, 07:51:38 PM

I think you've manage to miss the entire point of Jude's blog and my post.
     Anyway Who was the buck or buckos that planted the first bombs of the ' troubles ' ? 
   

[/quote]

Does it matter who planted the first ones? It's not the moderate unionists that he was trying to court either way. McGuiness heading up a peace process was like Timothy McVey leading an IED safety committee.

What's fûcked the north now was the hardline parties on both sides seizing power in the toxic environment that exsisted in the Troubles.
[/quote]

I'm sorry but the North was F#cked right from its sectarian inception, long before McGuinness, Paisley and the rest.
     My point about who planted the first bombs(loyalists btw)   is relevant because according to most of the media outlets  this week the entire conflict was down to militant republicans with Martin Mc Guinness at the helm.
     The Troubles was a far more complex affair than that.

I thought the funeral and in particular Bill Clintons speak was very fitting to the occassion. RIP Martin.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: tiempo on March 23, 2017, 08:01:33 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 23, 2017, 01:26:52 PM
Quote from: grounded on March 22, 2017, 10:46:31 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 22, 2017, 10:27:11 PM
Quote from: grounded on March 22, 2017, 09:46:20 PM
That article from Jude Collins hits the nail on the head. In particular the fact that Trimble and Robinson had to wait until he was dead before they could utter a positive sentiment about the man.
            In a way it sort of sums up the entire Unionist mindset of not an inch and lie down croppie. During the peace process Martin genuinely tried to reach out to the other side of the community. He tried to put himself in their shoes took risks and pushed the boundaries of his own Republicanism in order to show good faith and keep the peace.
            Look at what happened to any Unionist leader who ' did a Lundy ' . Trimble got the boot for the timmerity of attempting to power share. Eventually Paisley got the same treatment for daring to have a friendly relationship with Martin. And last but not least magic Mike got the boot for merely saying he would give his second preference to a party from the other side of the house.
             The very fact that our previous first minister has yet to ' decide if ' she would attend the funeral of her deputy first minister is all part of the same aul backward looking mindset.          Not that i would highly rate his intellect but sadly i'd say Jamie ' flegger' Bryson's views on Nationalism would broadly be in line with the majority of Loyalists and Unionism when he said that ' Sinn Fein are great at trying to reach out to Unionists but they dont really mean it as secretly they still want a United Ireland and that these acts of friendship were just another strategy'. Sadly with a few notable exceptions that is the Unionist mentality. They see it as a sign of weakness, when in fact reaching out to a future Nationalist majority is exactly what they should do. But alas they can't see the elephant in the room.

The buck plannng to blow unionists up a few years earlier would hardly find many friends in the unionist camp no matter how much he tried to reach out. It's not him that should have been in a position of power to begin with in the nationalist movement.

I think you've manage to miss the entire point of Jude's blog and my post.
     Anyway Who was the buck or buckos that planted the first bombs of the ' troubles ' ? 
   

Does it matter who planted the first ones? It's not the moderate unionists that he was trying to court either way. McGuiness heading up a peace process was like Timothy McVey leading an IED safety committee.

What's fûcked the north now was the hardline parties on both sides seizing power in the toxic environment that exsisted in the Troubles.

Put 900k unionists into Galway, Leitrim, Sligo, Mayo and the shires of Roscommon, let the worst of them run amok to carry out pogrom against the nationalist / catholic people and you'd be in dire need of men with the backbone of Martin McGuinness.

As it happened, the shires were left well out of it giving quislings ample opportunity to turn the other cheek.

Easy to pontificate from the safety of a demilitarised zone.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: lawnseed on March 23, 2017, 09:05:03 PM
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on March 23, 2017, 07:30:14 PM
In from work and watching Six One on RTE1+1 and they've yet to cover Martin McGuinness's funeral. Disappointing but not surprising.
very poor coverage of the funeral.. i thought it was on bbc i player but i couldn't get it,
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: ONeill on March 23, 2017, 10:01:54 PM
That was a good send off.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Tony Baloney on March 23, 2017, 10:10:20 PM
Quote from: ONeill on March 23, 2017, 10:01:54 PM
That was a good send off.
You'd hope for something similar.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: leenie on March 23, 2017, 10:15:50 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 23, 2017, 10:10:20 PM
Quote from: ONeill on March 23, 2017, 10:01:54 PM
That was a good send off.
You'd hope for something similar.

+1
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Armamike on March 23, 2017, 10:19:13 PM
Clinton's speech was brilliant, as ever. Brilliant orator.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: lawnseed on March 23, 2017, 10:48:47 PM
Quote from: Armamike on March 23, 2017, 10:19:13 PM
Clinton's speech was brilliant, as ever. Brilliant orator.
+1
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 11:10:30 PM
Gregory Campbell on The View now undoing any warmth people may have expressed towards Arlene this afternoon.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Tony Baloney on March 23, 2017, 11:27:27 PM
Quote from: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 11:10:30 PM
Gregory Campbell on The View now undoing any warmth people may have expressed towards Arlene this afternoon.
He's a hate-filled cretin. Just turn it off.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on March 23, 2017, 11:32:14 PM
Gregory is a total waste of good oxygen. Am sick of hearing this crap about rewritting history. Unionists have totally air brushed from history their discrimination and mistreatment of Catholics in the years prior to the start of the troubles.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 11:35:18 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 23, 2017, 11:27:27 PM
Quote from: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 11:10:30 PM
Gregory Campbell on The View now undoing any warmth people may have expressed towards Arlene this afternoon.
He's a hate-filled cretin. Just turn it off.

Nah, everyone else on it has been great. Susan McKay really just put the boot into Gregory and called out historical DUP connections to paramilitaries.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: In hiding on March 24, 2017, 12:15:17 AM
https://youtu.be/3qvUYtOr-Xc
Martin was some leader.He will be sorely missed. This is how reconciliation is done.
RIP
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: CiKe on March 24, 2017, 09:16:59 AM
Quote from: stew on March 23, 2017, 07:33:11 PM
Bladder every disrespect  intended but I have blocked your posts because you bore me, apologies if any of your drivel pertained to my posts, if not please ignore this post, cheers mate )

Hardly the place Stew, ye are as bad as each other, just leave it alone.

RIP Martin, we're unlikely to see his like again any time soon.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 24, 2017, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on March 23, 2017, 11:32:14 PM
Gregory is a total waste of good oxygen. Am sick of hearing this crap about rewritting history. Unionists have totally air brushed from history their discrimination and mistreatment of Catholics in the years prior to the start of the troubles.

In black and white in his article in the Newsletter: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gregory-campbell-the-full-truth-has-to-be-told-about-martin-mcguinness-1-7881961

QuoteCatholic and Protestant working-class communities faced the same disadvantage, the same discrimination and the same lack of opportunities.

This is a line that Campbell always maintains.  Most people, even those opposed to republican violence would say it was a response to discrimination.  They might argue the appropriateness of the response.  However this lad is claiming it didn't happen.

Completely out of touch.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Rudi on March 24, 2017, 11:25:23 AM
Evil prevails when good men do nothing. Martin was a good man representing his people. RIP
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: johnneycool on March 24, 2017, 11:33:27 AM
Quote from: AQMP on March 24, 2017, 09:51:50 AM
Quote from: gallsman on March 23, 2017, 11:10:30 PM
Gregory Campbell on The View now undoing any warmth people may have expressed towards Arlene this afternoon.

He was regurgitating the same ballix on the radio this morning.  While it would be comforting to regard Gregory as some sort of voice crying in the wilderness, unfortunately he does represent a significant constituency in northern Unionist thinking.  They just can't get over the fact that they didn't "win" the war.

Yes it was good to hear another Derry Protestant, Susan McKay, give him a touch on the telly last night.

With Ian O'g, Sophie Long and the likes breaking from the mould there is a hope that unionism is beginning to acknowledge that there is a strong Irish nationalist element to the North that won't take anything else other than equality and mutual respect to be a given.

In the same breath Unionism in itself is sorely lacking leaders who're prepared to lead from the front without looking over their shoulders all the time at how the hardliners are going to see their actions. When the likes of Jim Rodgers is shit scared to deal with bonefire builders in East Belfast wrecking a £40 Million Greenway it doesn't bode well in terms of true leadership.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: haranguerer on March 24, 2017, 11:54:33 AM
Sophie Long was forced to quit the PUP I believe
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: vallankumous on March 24, 2017, 11:57:53 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on March 24, 2017, 11:33:27 AM

With Ian O'g, Sophie Long and the likes breaking from the mould there is a hope that unionism is beginning to acknowledge that there is a strong Irish nationalist element to the North that won't take anything else other than equality and mutual respect to be a given.

In the same breath Unionism in itself is sorely lacking leaders who're prepared to lead from the front without looking over their shoulders all the time at how the hardliners are going to see their actions. When the likes of Jim Rodgers is shit scared to deal with bonefire builders in East Belfast wrecking a £40 Million Greenway it doesn't bode well in terms of true leadership.

It's a long slow process. Sadly apart from those directly involved it's feigned emotion by many politicians and journalists.
Pat Kenny on now talking about the Enniskillin bombing. He spoke with the emotion of a victim. I'd guess Pat Kenny has no emotional connection to that atrocity. There is only so long that can last as it becomes more and more evident that it's only the direct victims than can talk with that emotion. If I was to talk about the executions at 1916 like that I'd be rightly seen as a fool. Or even more recently, if I was to talk about bloody Sunday like that. I see bloody sunday as an important historical event. it still has ramifications today. For those that have survived Bloody Sunday it's an emotional thing. If I talk about it emotional I'll be found out or at least lose the interest of the listener. This is the tactic still used in many parts of Unionism. Like Gregory Campbell it will soon be outdated. People like Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness recognised this long before I did and applied more and more logic and less and less emotion to their approach. That was leadership and it's also a credit to their ability to recognise the curve.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Estimator on March 24, 2017, 12:07:19 PM
"We will probably never know however, whether this was because he helped initiate it or responded to events that he knew were inevitable after 9/11 with the Provos being riddled with informers."

Read more at: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gregory-campbell-the-full-truth-has-to-be-told-about-martin-mcguinness-1-7881961

Is GC trying to say that McGuinness' involvement in the ceasefire of '94 and the GFA of '97, were partly in response to events that would happen in 2001?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: The Gs Man on March 24, 2017, 12:18:16 PM
Haha

Caught a weaker!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: passedit on March 24, 2017, 12:21:29 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 24, 2017, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on March 23, 2017, 11:32:14 PM
Gregory is a total waste of good oxygen. Am sick of hearing this crap about rewritting history. Unionists have totally air brushed from history their discrimination and mistreatment of Catholics in the years prior to the start of the troubles.

In black and white in his article in the Newsletter: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gregory-campbell-the-full-truth-has-to-be-told-about-martin-mcguinness-1-7881961

QuoteCatholic and Protestant working-class communities faced the same disadvantage, the same discrimination and the same lack of opportunities.

This is a line that Campbell always maintains.  Most people, even those opposed to republican violence would say it was a response to discrimination.  They might argue the appropriateness of the response.  However this lad is claiming it didn't happen.

Completely out of touch.

/Jim.

I'd disagree Jim, the Civil Rights Movement was a response to the discrimination, I'd argue that Republican violence was a reaction to the reaction of the NI State and its proxies to the Civil Rights Movement. Whatever about their actions throughout the 'troubles' the IRA were not the initial aggressor here.

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 24, 2017, 02:07:51 PM
Quote from: passedit on March 24, 2017, 12:21:29 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 24, 2017, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on March 23, 2017, 11:32:14 PM
Gregory is a total waste of good oxygen. Am sick of hearing this crap about rewritting history. Unionists have totally air brushed from history their discrimination and mistreatment of Catholics in the years prior to the start of the troubles.

In black and white in his article in the Newsletter: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gregory-campbell-the-full-truth-has-to-be-told-about-martin-mcguinness-1-7881961

QuoteCatholic and Protestant working-class communities faced the same disadvantage, the same discrimination and the same lack of opportunities.

This is a line that Campbell always maintains.  Most people, even those opposed to republican violence would say it was a response to discrimination.  They might argue the appropriateness of the response.  However this lad is claiming it didn't happen.

Completely out of touch.

/Jim.

I'd disagree Jim, the Civil Rights Movement was a response to the discrimination, I'd argue that Republican violence was a reaction to the reaction of the NI State and its proxies to the Civil Rights Movement. Whatever about their actions throughout the 'troubles' the IRA were not the initial aggressor here.

Fair enough,  you could say that.  My real point though was Campbell's claim that working class Protestants suffered the same discrimination as Catholics is unbelievable.

/Jim.


Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 24, 2017, 02:10:29 PM
Quote from: Estimator on March 24, 2017, 12:07:19 PM
"We will probably never know however, whether this was because he helped initiate it or responded to events that he knew were inevitable after 9/11 with the Provos being riddled with informers."

Read more at: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gregory-campbell-the-full-truth-has-to-be-told-about-martin-mcguinness-1-7881961

Is GC trying to say that McGuinness' involvement in the ceasefire of '94 and the GFA of '97, were partly in response to events that would happen in 2001?

Noticed that alright..

Toolbag. Shows that he is so set in his version of events that facts and logic are irrelevant.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: north_antrim_hound on March 24, 2017, 02:13:25 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 24, 2017, 02:07:51 PM
Quote from: passedit on March 24, 2017, 12:21:29 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 24, 2017, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on March 23, 2017, 11:32:14 PM
Gregory is a total waste of good oxygen. Am sick of hearing this crap about rewritting history. Unionists have totally air brushed from history their discrimination and mistreatment of Catholics in the years prior to the start of the troubles.

In black and white in his article in the Newsletter: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gregory-campbell-the-full-truth-has-to-be-told-about-martin-mcguinness-1-7881961

QuoteCatholic and Protestant working-class communities faced the same disadvantage, the same discrimination and the same lack of opportunities.

This is a line that Campbell always maintains.  Most people, even those opposed to republican violence would say it was a response to discrimination.  They might argue the appropriateness of the response.  However this lad is claiming it didn't happen.

Completely out of touch.

/Jim.

I'd disagree Jim, the Civil Rights Movement was a response to the discrimination, I'd argue that Republican violence was a reaction to the reaction of the NI State and its proxies to the Civil Rights Movement. Whatever about their actions throughout the 'troubles' the IRA were not the initial aggressor here.

Fair enough,  you could say that.  My real point though was Campbell's claim that working class Protestants suffered the same discrimination as Catholics is unbelievable.

/Jim.

The man lives in constant state of delusion and is relic of the mindset that started the conflict in the first place
I have to say fair dues to Foster on showing up yesterday
You could argue her motive but to me it's a start on the road to redemption after all the crocodile stuff
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Applesisapples on March 24, 2017, 02:32:05 PM
Forster needs credit for showing up, at the end of the day she was on the receiving end of IRA actions. Campbell however signifies the worst of the notion that McGuinness and Adams are single(or double) handedly responsible for the troubles which only started in 1969. I have watched and lsitened to the BBC over the past few days and sadly most reporters seem to be of that mindset with Nolan being the worst. Listening to Donaldson asking an audience member if he was threatening violence struck me as totally hypocritical from a politician who's statelet and allegiance was founded on the violence and threats of the UVF. Ireland's history is littered with unacceptable violence and tragedies perpetrated on all sides, but listening to some you'd wonder.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: vallankumous on March 24, 2017, 02:41:37 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 24, 2017, 02:07:51 PM

Fair enough,  you could say that.  My real point though was Campbell's claim that working class Protestants suffered the same discrimination as Catholics is unbelievable.

/Jim.

There is an element of truth in that. It's understandable why some would believe it.
Working class people were always getting screwed. Just because the majority of the working class were Catholic doesn't mean there wasn't working class protestants too. It's no coincidence that loyalists came mainly from working class areas.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: OgraAnDun on March 24, 2017, 02:54:33 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on March 24, 2017, 02:41:37 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 24, 2017, 02:07:51 PM

Fair enough,  you could say that.  My real point though was Campbell's claim that working class Protestants suffered the same discrimination as Catholics is unbelievable.

/Jim.

There is an element of truth in that. It's understandable why some would believe it.
Working class people were always getting screwed. Just because the majority of the working class were Catholic doesn't mean there wasn't working class protestants too. It's no coincidence that loyalists came mainly from working class areas.

Go back through history and certain people pulled the strings of the ordinary Protestant to stoke up sectarian tension and division to further alterior motives.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: gallsman on March 24, 2017, 03:18:24 PM
Ffs Gregory. "Ethnic cleansing" of prods by those awful papists.

He's some gobshite.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: vallankumous on March 24, 2017, 04:13:45 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on March 24, 2017, 02:54:33 PM


Go back through history and certain people pulled the strings of the ordinary Protestant to stoke up sectarian tension and division to further alterior motives.

Yes, that's not uncommon. It's also true that it is a real experience, real life, real memory, real history for the 'ordinary protestant'.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on March 24, 2017, 05:47:10 PM
Quote from: AQMP on March 24, 2017, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 24, 2017, 02:32:05 PM
Forster needs credit for showing up, at the end of the day she was on the receiving end of IRA actions. Campbell however signifies the worst of the notion that McGuinness and Adams are single(or double) handedly responsible for the troubles which only started in 1969. I have watched and lsitened to the BBC over the past few days and sadly most reporters seem to be of that mindset with Nolan being the worst. Listening to Donaldson asking an audience member if he was threatening violence struck me as totally hypocritical from a politician who's statelet and allegiance was founded on the violence and threats of the UVF. Ireland's history is littered with unacceptable violence and tragedies perpetrated on all sides, but listening to some you'd wonder.

When someone like Denis Bradley get annoyed you know things are amiss.  He was calling out the BBC on Tuesday night for their coverage suggesting that Martin McGuinness almost woke up one morning and decided to start The Troubles on his own.  I was willing him on to deck Flegory on The View last night!.  RTE were at it too.  It was as if when someone said something positive about MMG it had to be countered ASAP with something.  LAD summed it up best with the tweet "Wha' Marty was in the 'RA??!!"

There was little to no attempt from any of the media to ask or understand why a young fella from Derry would feel he had to resort to such drastic steps. Whether those drastic steps were right or wrong is another matter. These were the questions that needed asked - and still do. As AQMP said Martin didn't wake up one morning and say you know what lets start a 30 year war against the Brits because I feel like it. Also, I am sure Martin did take a lot of secrets with him but the way the media portrayed it you would have thought he knew everything about every single bombing and shooting the IRA ever did and was the key to giving everyone all of the answers to everything. A bit of perspective wouldn't have gone amiss.

I have no time for Arlene at all but you have to give her some credit for at least being there. She did sour it a little with the will she / won't she routine but she would have done much more damage to relations if she had of stayed away. And fair play to the congregation for welcoming her.


Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Denn Forever on March 24, 2017, 05:58:53 PM
What the eulogy seen on some monument that Martin felt might sum him up?  Some of the speech makers said it.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: ziggy90 on March 25, 2017, 08:08:30 AM
Quote from: AQMP on March 24, 2017, 09:37:46 AM
Quote from: Hardy on March 23, 2017, 03:59:48 PM
Great speech by Clinton.

To use the modern parlance he absolutely nailed it.  The man is a master.

Just watched that on YouTube. Wonderful, heartfelt too I'd say.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Owen Brannigan on March 25, 2017, 11:24:47 AM
A very good article by Ed Moloney that is apart from those of many writers this week and backed by his detail from years of research.

A long read but worth every word as it shows how the media need to simplify and compartmentalise has produced their conclusions to their analysis of the life of Martin McGuinness.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ed-moloney-he-was-savagely-cruel-but-only-mcguinness-could-end-the-terror-1-7884440 (http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ed-moloney-he-was-savagely-cruel-but-only-mcguinness-could-end-the-terror-1-7884440)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: vallankumous on March 25, 2017, 12:23:11 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 25, 2017, 11:24:47 AM
A very good article by Ed Moloney that is apart from those of many writers this week and backed by his detail from years of research.

A long read but worth every word as it shows how the media need to simplify and compartmentalise has produced their conclusions to their analysis of the life of Martin McGuinness.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ed-moloney-he-was-savagely-cruel-but-only-mcguinness-could-end-the-terror-1-7884440 (http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ed-moloney-he-was-savagely-cruel-but-only-mcguinness-could-end-the-terror-1-7884440)

Regardless of your recommendation I will not read Ed Moloney.
If you summarize it and it looks good I will but I'll need to be persuaded.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: grounded on March 25, 2017, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: AhNowRef on March 22, 2017, 11:49:32 AM
It is extremely sickening to hear the likes of that horrible aul bitter west brit Ruth Dudley Edwards on Newsnight last night and on Nolan this morning blatantly denying that Catholics were even remotely oppressed or terrorised in the old Stormont or indeed during the troubles ...  She is a unionist and continuously spouts the usual lies that the British & Unionists were whiter than white and it was all the nationalists/Catholics fault...

One of my earliest memories was being a very young child and being woken up by a British Soldier standing there with a rifle in his hand ... I come from a large Catholic family, who were NEVER involved in anything, but because we were a large Catholic family we were fair game to be raided on several occasions .. and we were .. 3 in my memory .. Lets just say it was never a pleasant experience..

And as for Tebit, well he's really not worth thinking about as he will continue to stew in his own bile .. for years to come hopefully..

But youse lads are right, only for having parents that shepherded you away from getting involved there would have been a lot more people involved..  but its very easy to see how many people did..

Reading back through the experiences of so many of the posters on here brings the memories of growing up in the late 70's and 80's all back again. Things at that time that seemed like ' normal ' everyday occurrences would be completely bewildering and terrifying to kids growing up now and thank God for that.
            We lived in a small rural housing estate in South Down. I wouldn't say it was a particularly republican area but definitely nationalist. A very vivid memory of mine is when we as a child of about 5 or 6, my brother and myself took our dog for a walk up to a hilly area above the estate. It was a wee jack russell and it raced away ahead of me up the hill barking away at something which we thought was a rabbit. When we reached the top of the hill we literally walked on top of a group of camouflaged troops with telescopic camera lens etc(they were obviously observing the estate). Our arrival had obviously blown their cover. The wee dog wouldn't stop barking so one particular get laced his boot into it which broke it's neck. The others questioned us for some time about ' who had sent us up the hill to check ' . After that, they pointed their guns at us and told us to run back down the hill and home. By the time we got home we were both hysterical. We were advised to go to the police but da didn't want any trouble so it was left at that.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: randomusername on March 25, 2017, 01:49:48 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on March 25, 2017, 12:23:11 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 25, 2017, 11:24:47 AM
A very good article by Ed Moloney that is apart from those of many writers this week and backed by his detail from years of research.

A long read but worth every word as it shows how the media need to simplify and compartmentalise has produced their conclusions to their analysis of the life of Martin McGuinness.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ed-moloney-he-was-savagely-cruel-but-only-mcguinness-could-end-the-terror-1-7884440 (http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ed-moloney-he-was-savagely-cruel-but-only-mcguinness-could-end-the-terror-1-7884440)

Regardless of your recommendation I will not read Ed Moloney.
If you summarize it and it looks good I will but I'll need to be persuaded.

Can understand why republicans dislike Ed Moloney but he probably knows as much about the IRA as anyone outside the organisation.

On The View the other day Dennis Bradley was visibly angry at Gregory Campbell, who had reeled off a list of incidents like the 1990 proxy bombing at Coshquin. Bradley said "the IRA were cell-based" - letting McGuinness off the hook, effectively. Like Moloney, I highly doubt McGuinness didn't have a clue about major IRA operations like that considering he was head of Northern Command and a member of the Army Council for many, many years.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Owen Brannigan on March 25, 2017, 04:25:09 PM
Quote from: randomusername on March 25, 2017, 01:49:48 PM



Can understand why republicans dislike Ed Moloney but he probably knows as much about the IRA as anyone outside the organisation.

(http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ed-moloney-he-was-savagely-cruel-but-only-mcguinness-could-end-the-terror-1-7884440)

He probably knows more about the organisation's activities than many members did as he has been able to find bring together so many sources who were willing to give him information about what was happening.  It is galling for many not only that Maloney has published so much detail on events but that members were willing to tell all to him and his researchers. He has brought much unpalatable information to public knowledge.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: randomusername on March 25, 2017, 05:27:07 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.

This lad I presume

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/landmark-action-as-families-to-sue-loyalist-church-deacon-and-the-state-over-murder-of-their-loved-ones-31464335.html
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Windmill abu on March 26, 2017, 12:19:16 AM
Quote from: randomusername on March 25, 2017, 05:27:07 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.

This lad I presume

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/landmark-action-as-families-to-sue-loyalist-church-deacon-and-the-state-over-murder-of-their-loved-ones-31464335.html

Christian religions, they abuse and murder the innocent. But as long as they don't do it in the name of Republicanism or Loyalism we should tolerate them.

If all the christian churches f**ked off we might have peace here.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Windmill abu on March 26, 2017, 12:47:39 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.

QuoteIan Paisley: In quotes
12 September 2014
From the section Northern Ireland
"They breed like rabbits and multiply like vermin" - talking about Catholics at a loyalist rally in 1969.
"Catholic homes caught fire because they were loaded with petrol bombs; Catholic churches were attacked and burned because they were arsenals and priests handed out sub-machine guns to parishioners" - at a loyalist rally in 1968 following attacks on Catholic homes.
"Save Ulster from sodomy!" - his slogan in a 1970s and 80s campaign against legalising homosexuality.
"I am not going to sit down with bloodthirsty monsters who have been killing and terrifying my people" - opposing demands to sit down and talk with Sinn Féin.
"The scarlet woman of Rome" - his description of Pope John Paul.
"I don't like the president of the Irish Republic because she is dishonest" - his description of the then Irish president Mary McAleese.
"Mr Adams would have to repent from his evil ways. I am here tonight by the grace of God, a sinner saved by grace" - New York, 1994, when asked if he would shake Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams's hand.
"Talk about dancing at Christmas on the graves of Ulster dead, and to be given the facility so to dance by the British prime minister... Here we saw the godfathers of those who planned the bombing of Downing Street, standing outside there and piously pretending they were engaged in a search for peace" - reacting to the Downing Street meeting of Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams and then prime minister Tony Blair in December 1997.
"I denounce you, Anti-Christ! I refuse you as Christ's enemy and Antichrist with all your false doctrine" - addressing Pope John Paul II on a visit to the European Parliament October 1988.
"This Romish man of sin is now in hell! - on the death of Pope John XXIII.
"The IRA's bishop from Crossmaglen" - describing the then head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Tomas Ó Fiaich.
"No surrender. We will never bend the knee" - a regular cry aimed at those he believed were ready to "betray" Northern Ireland.
"Protect us from the shackles of priest-craft" - late 1970s in an attack on the Roman Catholic church.

While Big Ian may not have murdered anyone, he definately made catholics legitamte targets by his preachings. Quotes supplied by the B.B.C.

Please let me know which of the above kept his hands clean.

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: randomusername on March 26, 2017, 02:00:49 AM
Quote from: Windmill abu on March 26, 2017, 12:47:39 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.

QuoteIan Paisley: In quotes
12 September 2014
From the section Northern Ireland
"They breed like rabbits and multiply like vermin" - talking about Catholics at a loyalist rally in 1969.
"Catholic homes caught fire because they were loaded with petrol bombs; Catholic churches were attacked and burned because they were arsenals and priests handed out sub-machine guns to parishioners" - at a loyalist rally in 1968 following attacks on Catholic homes.
"Save Ulster from sodomy!" - his slogan in a 1970s and 80s campaign against legalising homosexuality.
"I am not going to sit down with bloodthirsty monsters who have been killing and terrifying my people" - opposing demands to sit down and talk with Sinn Féin.
"The scarlet woman of Rome" - his description of Pope John Paul.
"I don't like the president of the Irish Republic because she is dishonest" - his description of the then Irish president Mary McAleese.
"Mr Adams would have to repent from his evil ways. I am here tonight by the grace of God, a sinner saved by grace" - New York, 1994, when asked if he would shake Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams's hand.
"Talk about dancing at Christmas on the graves of Ulster dead, and to be given the facility so to dance by the British prime minister... Here we saw the godfathers of those who planned the bombing of Downing Street, standing outside there and piously pretending they were engaged in a search for peace" - reacting to the Downing Street meeting of Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams and then prime minister Tony Blair in December 1997.
"I denounce you, Anti-Christ! I refuse you as Christ's enemy and Antichrist with all your false doctrine" - addressing Pope John Paul II on a visit to the European Parliament October 1988.
"This Romish man of sin is now in hell! - on the death of Pope John XXIII.
"The IRA's bishop from Crossmaglen" - describing the then head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Tomas Ó Fiaich.
"No surrender. We will never bend the knee" - a regular cry aimed at those he believed were ready to "betray" Northern Ireland.
"Protect us from the shackles of priest-craft" - late 1970s in an attack on the Roman Catholic church.

While Big Ian may not have murdered anyone, he definately made catholics legitamte targets by his preachings. Quotes supplied by the B.B.C.

Please let me know which of the above kept his hands clean.

The guy was a lunatic. Money mad as well. Saw this tweet earlier, might turn out to be interesting:

"ST [Sunday Times] News: Ian Paisley left estate worth €744,000 to his wife when he died in 2014. Probate has interesting detail on a couple of properties"
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: general_lee on March 26, 2017, 08:18:54 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.
Who did McGuinness kill?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Tony Baloney on March 26, 2017, 09:54:11 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
+1
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 26, 2017, 10:00:07 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/there-can-be-no-doubt-that-certain-words-ian-paisley-spoke-sent-men-out-to-kill-1.1927558

"I remembered the three little Quinn brothers, burned to death in their home in Ballymoney after apocalyptic warnings from Paisley over the rights of the Orange Order at Drumcree.
I remembered Billy Mitchell, a forlorn former loyalist paramilitary who told me he'd been into rock and roll until he started going to Paisley's rallies in the 1960s and dropped rocking round the clock in favour of preparing for doomsday. He killed two men and never forgave himself.
I remembered Mrs Reavey from Whitecross, whose sons were murdered by loyalists. She died a few years ago still waiting for Paisley to apologise for saying they were in the IRA when he knew well that they were not. "
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Owen Brannigan on March 26, 2017, 10:55:22 AM
Quote from: general_lee on March 26, 2017, 08:18:54 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.
Who did McGuinness kill?

Begin by reading this article.........

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ed-moloney-he-was-savagely-cruel-but-only-mcguinness-could-end-the-terror-1-7884440Who did McGuinness kill? (http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ed-moloney-he-was-savagely-cruel-but-only-mcguinness-could-end-the-terror-1-7884440Who%20did%20McGuinness%20kill?)

Then move on to Maloney's 'A Secret History of the IRA", 'Voices From The Grave' and 'Paisley - From Demagogue to Democrat?'

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: CiKe on March 26, 2017, 11:02:57 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

Not.about to reread the 10+ pages since his death.but frankly hadn't noticed this collective airbrushing of history you refer to. Plenty of debate about his past
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 11:58:18 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 11:58:18 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?
Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 11:58:18 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?
Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.

That didn't answer my question.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:56:48 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 11:58:18 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?
Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.

That didn't answer my question.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?
This thread is about Martin McGuiness - What do you think of his likely involvement in some of the murders highlihted in Moloney's article?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 12:59:59 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

No. I am not comfortable with it either but the dup have links with very bad things too and are no strangers to rewriting history themselves. There are lots of double standards on the whole thing.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 01:08:47 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:56:48 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 11:58:18 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?
Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.

That didn't answer my question.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?
This thread is about Martin McGuiness - What do you think of his likely involvement in some of the murders highlihted in Moloney's article?

Suspected as you say. I'm wise enough to know war blurs lines, there is no defending some of the actions carried out by the Provos but every war or conflict will have these incidents across all sides. Martin McGuinness was an ordinary man who did extraordinary things due to the discrimination and state sponsored terrorism that was taking place in his own community. If you can't take that on board then there's no point discussing matters with you.

Now for the third time of asking.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?

For some reason it seems you are having difficulty applying your moral affliction to other parties, maybe because your ideals are not as pure as you'd like paint.

For what it's worth, Collins was one of the leading IRA men when 13 Protestant civilians were murdered in his home county of Cork over a short period of time. What do you think of Collins? A civilian informant was also murdered by Collins hit squad. What did you think of Collins?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on March 26, 2017, 03:12:38 PM
No one in any war has clean hands. War is dirty plain and simpke. No one is air brushing McGinnuess's past but simply asserting that he died a different man than he grew up and some are rationalising his past by contextualising it. When you have extremes you also have grey areas. We never forget the past but we need to learn and move on from the past. It takes some longer than others and that has to be respected too. He lived with secrets and he died with secrets, as no doubt did Paisley, David Irvine and many others. Accept it for that move on otherwise we live in the past forever. There will be no truth forum in NI. As the protagonists die off so the memories will fade and the atrocities lessen by distance in time. This will be seen against a very different world to where it happened and as a result will be easier to 'forget'. The long game is happening and will continue to happen
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: T Fearon on March 26, 2017, 03:24:58 PM
It is funny in a peculiar way that most of the well known protagonists (Adams,Mc Guinness,Adair,Wright) never did much in the way of jail time or indeed came into contact with the police all that often,and were allowed largely  to continue their activities unfettered for decades.

Too much of a murky relationship between all paramilitaries and the British Government,that's why there will never be a truth forum.

Still you do have to feel for victims,particularly those who had no involvement whatsoever with paramilitarism or so called security forces.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Denn Forever on March 26, 2017, 04:46:58 PM
Would Martin not have been excommunicated for being in  the IRA?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: michaelg on March 27, 2017, 01:00:22 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 01:08:47 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:56:48 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 11:58:18 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?
Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.

That didn't answer my question.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?
This thread is about Martin McGuiness - What do you think of his likely involvement in some of the murders highlihted in Moloney's article?

Suspected as you say. I'm wise enough to know war blurs lines, there is no defending some of the actions carried out by the Provos but every war or conflict will have these incidents across all sides. Martin McGuinness was an ordinary man who did extraordinary things due to the discrimination and state sponsored terrorism that was taking place in his own community. If you can't take that on board then there's no point discussing matters with you.

Now for the third time of asking.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?

For some reason it seems you are having difficulty applying your moral affliction to other parties, maybe because your ideals are not as pure as you'd like paint.

For what it's worth, Collins was one of the leading IRA men when 13 Protestant civilians were murdered in his home county of Cork over a short period of time. What do you think of Collins? A civilian informant was also murdered by Collins hit squad. What did you think of Collins?
Your comment re "Suspected as you say" speaks volumes.  The dogs in the street have a fair idea about what MMcG was involved in.  As such, you cannot claim there is "no point in discussing matters with you" if you are not going to accept his involvement.

As for your question, I would not condone any act of terrorism.  Not trying to provoke a response, but there is no excuse for the sectarian murder of fellow Protestant Irishmen or "suspected" informants.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: OgraAnDun on March 27, 2017, 09:11:40 AM
Spies are killed in all wars, the US still facilitates capital punishment for US citizens engaged in espionage for a foreign entity I think? What would you rather the IRA did, build a prison to accommodate informers?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Main Street on March 27, 2017, 10:24:11 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:56:48 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 11:58:18 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?
Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.

That didn't answer my question.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?
This thread is about Martin McGuiness - What do you think of his likely involvement in some of the murders highlihted in Moloney's article?
Moloney is a very poor historian.
His opening paragraph is base emotional nonsense
"he was the IRA leader who had conducted an orchestra of death and destruction for most of his republican career"

Maloney endows his account to be a verified fact, an account of a murderous event based on quotes ascribed to a source, a supposed direct witness. Then having set that standard of truth (quotes from a source), he then determines the judgement   "Martin McGuinness' life is replete with examples of similar savagery"


All off the record, on the QT, and very hush-hush  ;D

Maloney's incapable of impartiality and sets the bar of scrutiny so low that it be at a joke level.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Applesisapples on March 27, 2017, 10:30:09 AM
Maloney is a journalist, not an historian so you cannot accept as gospel all he writes, that is not to say there are not elemnts of truth. His job though is to sell books. The very people who point the finger at McGuinness et al are the same one who lionise Carson, Craig, Collins, De Valera etc... Some of them have even voted to send UK bombers and troops into Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of them rejoiced at the sinking of the Belgrano. War is dirty i for one do not condone it or the right of any one to kill for any cause, but some balance please.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: AhNowRef on March 27, 2017, 12:49:02 PM
Quote from: grounded on March 25, 2017, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: AhNowRef on March 22, 2017, 11:49:32 AM
It is extremely sickening to hear the likes of that horrible aul bitter west brit Ruth Dudley Edwards on Newsnight last night and on Nolan this morning blatantly denying that Catholics were even remotely oppressed or terrorised in the old Stormont or indeed during the troubles ...  She is a unionist and continuously spouts the usual lies that the British & Unionists were whiter than white and it was all the nationalists/Catholics fault...

One of my earliest memories was being a very young child and being woken up by a British Soldier standing there with a rifle in his hand ... I come from a large Catholic family, who were NEVER involved in anything, but because we were a large Catholic family we were fair game to be raided on several occasions .. and we were .. 3 in my memory .. Lets just say it was never a pleasant experience..

And as for Tebit, well he's really not worth thinking about as he will continue to stew in his own bile .. for years to come hopefully..

But youse lads are right, only for having parents that shepherded you away from getting involved there would have been a lot more people involved..  but its very easy to see how many people did..

Reading back through the experiences of so many of the posters on here brings the memories of growing up in the late 70's and 80's all back again. Things at that time that seemed like ' normal ' everyday occurrences would be completely bewildering and terrifying to kids growing up now and thank God for that.
            We lived in a small rural housing estate in South Down. I wouldn't say it was a particularly republican area but definitely nationalist. A very vivid memory of mine is when we as a child of about 5 or 6, my brother and myself took our dog for a walk up to a hilly area above the estate. It was a wee jack russell and it raced away ahead of me up the hill barking away at something which we thought was a rabbit. When we reached the top of the hill we literally walked on top of a group of camouflaged troops with telescopic camera lens etc(they were obviously observing the estate). Our arrival had obviously blown their cover. The wee dog wouldn't stop barking so one particular get laced his boot into it which broke it's neck. The others questioned us for some time about ' who had sent us up the hill to check ' . After that, they pointed their guns at us and told us to run back down the hill and home. By the time we got home we were both hysterical. We were advised to go to the police but da didn't want any trouble so it was left at that.

This is the thing .. they could do whatever they felt like doing (and kicking/killing a dog and scaring the sh1t outta children was tame compared to most of the things they did) with no repercussions .. whether they were "reported" or not .. It was a horrible situation which people cant understand unless they went through it first hand, and to simply blame MMG & the IRA for all the troubles is so incredibly incorrect its laughable..
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: red hander on March 27, 2017, 05:04:09 PM
Ruth Dudley Cuntbubble is a professional contrarian getting well paid by INM to spout her anti-nationalist/republican cac.  FFS she recently referred to the RUC as "a fine police force" forced into the dustbin of history by those awful Shinners, totally ignoring its completely one-sided role. I love the way she throws in all these anecdotes about how people come up to her, almost scared, looking round to see no one is watching, to tell her everything she says and writes is absolutely true ... a complete and utter fantasist, who is not peddling her shite out of any principle, but because it pays well and she's fixed herself a wee niche in the market along with that other odious fuckwit Eoghan Harris
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: haranguerer on March 27, 2017, 05:05:05 PM
a horrible bitch
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Main Street on March 27, 2017, 05:13:05 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 27, 2017, 10:30:09 AM
Maloney is a journalist, not an historian so you cannot accept as gospel all he writes, that is not to say there are not elemnts of truth. His job though is to sell books. The very people who point the finger at McGuinness et al are the same one who lionise Carson, Craig, Collins, De Valera etc... Some of them have even voted to send UK bombers and troops into Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of them rejoiced at the sinking of the Belgrano. War is dirty i for one do not condone it or the right of any one to kill for any cause, but some balance please.
Apples, you're asking me to decide for myself which part of Maloney's account is truth and which is lies?
We were asked to comment on an article which claimed to have account of McGuinness' actions and in which final damming judgements were passed by Maloney on McGuinness. Maloney has set himself up on a moral and judgemental pedestal.
Veracity is the issue when reading such an account.
When Maloney's credibility as a journalist or historian is shattered in the first two paragraphs,
it is safe to dismiss all he writes in the article. If he ascribes truth to a secret source who we cannot scrutinise, then we have no idea just how much balderdash he tags onto his article in order to support his agenda. And when a source does provide an account which supports Maloney's agenda, what scrutiny does Maloney exercise to inspect that source's account and what importance does he give to witness accounts of the same incident which oppose his agenda?



Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Rossfan on March 27, 2017, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 27, 2017, 05:04:09 PM
Ruth Dudley Cuntbubble is a professional contrarian getting well paid by INM to spout her anti-nationalist/republican cac.  FFS she recently referred to the RUC as "a fine police force" forced into the dustbin of history by those awful Shinners, totally ignoring its completely one-sided role. I love the way she throws in all these anecdotes about how people come up to here, almost scared, looking round to see no one is watching, to tell her everything she says and writes is absolutely true ... a complete and utter fantasist, who is not peddling her shite out of any principle, but because it pays well and she's fixed herself a wee niche in the market along with that other odious fuckwit Eoghan Harris
+1.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 27, 2017, 05:47:07 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 27, 2017, 05:04:09 PM
Ruth Dudley Cuntbubble is a professional contrarian getting well paid by INM to spout her anti-nationalist/republican cac.  FFS she recently referred to the RUC as "a fine police force" forced into the dustbin of history by those awful Shinners, totally ignoring its completely one-sided role. I love the way she throws in all these anecdotes about how people come up to here, almost scared, looking round to see no one is watching, to tell her everything she says and writes is absolutely true ... a complete and utter fantasist, who is not peddling her shite out of any principle, but because it pays well and she's fixed herself a wee niche in the market along with that other odious fuckwit Eoghan Harris
The Indo is still a bastion of the spirit of William Martin Murphy. And it is the guardian of 26 county small mindedness. The Indo sells that down south and the Belfast Telegraph up.north.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: yellowcard on March 27, 2017, 06:45:42 PM
Without knowing its history, I've often wondered why the Independent appears to be such a pro partionist newspaper. Who is the editor of the independent?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Avondhu star on March 27, 2017, 07:25:07 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on March 26, 2017, 04:46:58 PM
Would Martin not have been excommunicated for being in  the IRA?
That would be a ecumenical matter!
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: AZOffaly on March 27, 2017, 09:51:11 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on March 27, 2017, 06:45:42 PM
Without knowing its history, I've often wondered why the Independent appears to be such a pro partionist newspaper. Who is the editor of the independent?
Always has been. It called for the execution of the 1916 leaders too. Piece of shit paper.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Applesisapples on March 28, 2017, 09:45:45 AM
Quote from: Main Street on March 27, 2017, 05:13:05 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 27, 2017, 10:30:09 AM
Maloney is a journalist, not an historian so you cannot accept as gospel all he writes, that is not to say there are not elemnts of truth. His job though is to sell books. The very people who point the finger at McGuinness et al are the same one who lionise Carson, Craig, Collins, De Valera etc... Some of them have even voted to send UK bombers and troops into Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of them rejoiced at the sinking of the Belgrano. War is dirty i for one do not condone it or the right of any one to kill for any cause, but some balance please.
Apples, you're asking me to decide for myself which part of Maloney's account is truth and which is lies?
We were asked to comment on an article which claimed to have account of McGuinness' actions and in which final damming judgements were passed by Maloney on McGuinness. Maloney has set himself up on a moral and judgemental pedestal.
Veracity is the issue when reading such an account.
When Maloney's credibility as a journalist or historian is shattered in the first two paragraphs,
it is safe to dismiss all he writes in the article. If he ascribes truth to a secret source who we cannot scrutinise, then we have no idea just how much balderdash he tags onto his article in order to support his agenda. And when a source does provide an account which supports Maloney's agenda, what scrutiny does Maloney exercise to inspect that source's account and what importance does he give to witness accounts of the same incident which oppose his agenda?
No I am saying he cannot be read as an historian, but as someone with a skewed version of events to suit his own angle, as is the case with most journalists.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Harold Disgracey on March 28, 2017, 11:14:44 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on March 27, 2017, 06:45:42 PM
Without knowing its history, I've often wondered why the Independent appears to be such a pro partionist newspaper. Who is the editor of the independent?

The bouffant twat Fionnan Sheahan.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: foxcommander on March 28, 2017, 04:16:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 27, 2017, 05:47:07 PM
The Indo sells that down south and the Belfast Telegraph up.north.

Are they not the same newspaper? If you look at their websites you wouldn't be able to tell the difference
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: screenexile on March 28, 2017, 04:26:54 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on March 28, 2017, 04:16:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 27, 2017, 05:47:07 PM
The Indo sells that down south and the Belfast Telegraph up.north.

Are they not the same newspaper? If you look at their websites you wouldn't be able to tell the difference

Same parent company
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: foxcommander on March 28, 2017, 07:54:32 PM
Quote from: screenexile on March 28, 2017, 04:26:54 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on March 28, 2017, 04:16:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 27, 2017, 05:47:07 PM
The Indo sells that down south and the Belfast Telegraph up.north.

Are they not the same newspaper? If you look at their websites you wouldn't be able to tell the difference

Same parent company

Same newspaper then! Certainly won't have much different in their viewpoint. Wouldn't line the cat's litterbox with it.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Owen Brannigan on March 28, 2017, 10:15:01 PM

Chris Dillow is economics writer at the Investors Chronicle. He blogs at Stumbling and Mumbling and is the author of New Labour and the end of Politics

March 22, 2017

MARTIN MCGUINNESS & THE NATURE OF POLITICS

James O'Brien
tweeted (https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/844104901374459904) yesterday:McGuinness was both a murderous terrorist & a powerful force for peace. He changed. Our furiously binary zeitgeist can't compute such change. I want to expand on this, because it tells us something about the nature of politics generally.

I suspect McGuinness was a force for peace in part precisely because he was a murderous terrorist. Because his credentials as an IRA man were so strong, he could persuade hardline terrorists to give up violence in a way that more moderate republicans could not. Granted, his commitment to peace might, as Padraig says (http://littleatoms.com/blog/padraig-reidy/martin-mcguinness-saw-peace-tactic-we-may-be-lucky-he-succeeded), have been "tactical rather than principled". And he might have adopted it from a position of weakness: by the 90s, the IRA was so chocka with MI5 agents that it resembled something from a G.K.Chesterton novel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Was_Thursday). But peace is peace.

There are many examples in politics of men changing events because their previous commitments gave them credibility with potential opponents of that change. We've even got a name for it: "Nixon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_goes_to_China) goes to China". Nixon's impeccable anti-Communist credentials meant that he could begin détente in a way that more liberal men couldn't because of the fear of being labelled soft on communism. Similarly, Tony Blair was able (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1556871/How-Blair-forced-nationalisation-upon-Labour.html) to abandon Labour's Clause IV in part because he had the support of John Prescott, a man whose deeper roots in the party gave him more influence over Labour traditionalists than Blair alone could enjoy.

Perhaps a closer analogy with McGuinness's change, however, is the role Lyndon Johnson played (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/04/what-the-hells-the-presidency-for/358630/) in the passage of the Civil Rights Act. LBJ was a racist (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/lyndon-johnson-civil-rights-racism) – certainly by today's standards and perhaps even by those of his time. Such attitudes, however, gave him influence with southern segregationists that Kennedy – who had proposed the Act – never had. LBJ thus managed to force the Act through Congress whereas Kennedy failed. JFK might have been more acceptable to decent people, but LBJ did the job.

LBJ was both a racist and an advancer of blacks' rights, just as McGuinness was both a murderer and a force for peace. And both men were one because they were the other.

George Bernard Shaw famously said that "all progress depends upon the unreasonable man*." This might be an exaggeration, but one way in which it is true is that the unreasonable man can persuade other unreasonable men in a way that moderates cannot.

It's in this context that James is right to decry our simplistic "binary zeitgeist". Many people think of politics as a low-grade morality play in which good people – people like us, naturally, because we lack the faculties of self-criticism – oppose bad people.  But it isn't (http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2014/11/hammetts-world.html) always so. McGuinness and Johnson show that "bad" people can sometimes do good things, perhaps even for bad motives. And the converse can also be true: good people can do bad things. The social sciences are  often complex (http://tuvalu.santafe.edu/~wbarthur/complexityeconomics.htm)emergent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence)processes (http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2014/08/emergence.html): outcomes aren't always reducible to individuals' intentions.

Personally, I'd like to see less moral posturing and tribalism in politics and more inquiry into how to build structures that increase the chances of bad people doing good things and lessen the chances of good ones doing bad things. But this is a forlorn hope.

* It's sort of fitting that Chuck Berry (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/445899/chuck-berry-was-founding-father-rock-n-roll) should have died (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/mar/19/chuck-berry-obituary-a-perfect-fit-of-street-talk-to-music) in the same week as Martin McGuinness, as he – in his very different way – is another example of how dubious characters can do great things.

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on March 28, 2017, 10:49:27 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 27, 2017, 01:00:22 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 01:08:47 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:56:48 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 11:58:18 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?
Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.

That didn't answer my question.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?
This thread is about Martin McGuiness - What do you think of his likely involvement in some of the murders highlihted in Moloney's article?

Suspected as you say. I'm wise enough to know war blurs lines, there is no defending some of the actions carried out by the Provos but every war or conflict will have these incidents across all sides. Martin McGuinness was an ordinary man who did extraordinary things due to the discrimination and state sponsored terrorism that was taking place in his own community. If you can't take that on board then there's no point discussing matters with you.

Now for the third time of asking.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?

For some reason it seems you are having difficulty applying your moral affliction to other parties, maybe because your ideals are not as pure as you'd like paint.

For what it's worth, Collins was one of the leading IRA men when 13 Protestant civilians were murdered in his home county of Cork over a short period of time. What do you think of Collins? A civilian informant was also murdered by Collins hit squad. What did you think of Collins?
Your comment re "Suspected as you say" speaks volumes.  The dogs in the street have a fair idea about what MMcG was involved in.  As such, you cannot claim there is "no point in discussing matters with you" if you are not going to accept his involvement.

As for your question, I would not condone any act of terrorism.  Not trying to provoke a response, but there is no excuse for the sectarian murder of fellow Protestant Irishmen or "suspected" informants.

So getting back to my original question.

What did you think of Collins, de Valera and Lemass?

You are quite happy to judge McGuinness on idle speculation and convenience but unwilling to comment on others with similar proximity and possible complicity to that you slate McGuinnes for. Why is that?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Maurice Moss on March 29, 2017, 01:03:35 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2017, 10:33:17 AM
I will repeat, read James Kelly's Bonfires on the Hillsides.

Applesisapples, would you know where this book could be sourced? Wouldn't mind having a read over it.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Newbridge Exile on March 29, 2017, 01:11:53 AM
Quote from: Maurice Moss on March 29, 2017, 01:03:35 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2017, 10:33:17 AM
I will repeat, read James Kelly's Bonfires on the Hillsides.

Applesisapples, would you know where this book could be sourced? Wouldn't mind having a read over it.
I bought a copy on eBay tonight, will hopefully have it by start of week
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Applesisapples on March 29, 2017, 03:27:23 AM
Quote from: Maurice Moss on March 29, 2017, 01:03:35 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2017, 10:33:17 AM
I will repeat, read James Kelly's Bonfires on the Hillsides.

Applesisapples, would you know where this book could be sourced? Wouldn't mind having a read over it.
Its on amazon
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: michaelg on March 29, 2017, 07:03:42 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 28, 2017, 10:49:27 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 27, 2017, 01:00:22 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 01:08:47 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:56:48 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 11:58:18 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?
Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.

That didn't answer my question.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?
This thread is about Martin McGuiness - What do you think of his likely involvement in some of the murders highlihted in Moloney's article?

Suspected as you say. I'm wise enough to know war blurs lines, there is no defending some of the actions carried out by the Provos but every war or conflict will have these incidents across all sides. Martin McGuinness was an ordinary man who did extraordinary things due to the discrimination and state sponsored terrorism that was taking place in his own community. If you can't take that on board then there's no point discussing matters with you.

Now for the third time of asking.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?

For some reason it seems you are having difficulty applying your moral affliction to other parties, maybe because your ideals are not as pure as you'd like paint.

For what it's worth, Collins was one of the leading IRA men when 13 Protestant civilians were murdered in his home county of Cork over a short period of time. What do you think of Collins? A civilian informant was also murdered by Collins hit squad. What did you think of Collins?
Your comment re "Suspected as you say" speaks volumes.  The dogs in the street have a fair idea about what MMcG was involved in.  As such, you cannot claim there is "no point in discussing matters with you" if you are not going to accept his involvement.

As for your question, I would not condone any act of terrorism.  Not trying to provoke a response, but there is no excuse for the sectarian murder of fellow Protestant Irishmen or "suspected" informants.

So getting back to my original question.

What did you think of Collins, de Valera and Lemass?

You are quite happy to judge McGuinness on idle speculation and convenience but unwilling to comment on others with similar proximity and possible complicity to that you slate McGuinnes for. Why is that?
Can you not read?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: seafoid on March 29, 2017, 08:48:59 AM
Collins is venerated but he could have been a Franco
DeValera was dreadful
Lemass got sense late in life.

Is mise, le meas
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Keyser soze on March 29, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Watching the documentary last night I as struck by how many of the people who were demonising Martin McGuiness would have been strong supporters of the marine who murdered a wounded man in cold blood getting his sentence reduced or conviction quashed.

The double standards of the brits is breathtaking.

Nowhere near as bad as some of the +++++ on this board though.  ;)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Rossfan on March 29, 2017, 09:59:04 AM
As Michaelg seems to be if a Unionist persuasion I doubt he has much time for Collins, Dev etc etc.
But sure don't let that stop Bomber wasting pages of Gaaboard quoting himself ::)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: johnneycool on March 29, 2017, 11:02:59 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 29, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Watching the documentary last night I as struck by how many of the people who were demonising Martin McGuiness would have been strong supporters of the marine who murdered a wounded man in cold blood getting his sentence reduced or conviction quashed.

The double standards of the brits is breathtaking.

Nowhere near as bad as some of the +++++ on this board though.  ;)

Aye, but yer man was suffering from PTSD so that made it alright even as he knew himself he was contravening the Geneva convention as he pulled the trigger so that makes it alright it seems.
:o
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: AhNowRef on March 29, 2017, 11:57:57 AM
The brazen hypocrisy of the British & Unionists is absolutely breathtaking  ::) ... Some outfit to be dealing with, and the worst thing is, it looks like this Tory government arent going anywhere for a long long time  :-\
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: michaelg on March 29, 2017, 05:58:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 29, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Watching the documentary last night I as struck by how many of the people who were demonising Martin McGuiness would have been strong supporters of the marine who murdered a wounded man in cold blood getting his sentence reduced or conviction quashed.

The double standards of the brits is breathtaking.

Nowhere near as bad as some of the +++++ on this board though.  ;)
Didn't see it myself - Who was it that was demonising Martin Mc Guiness?  The many victims of IRA terror, catholic and protestant alike, have every right to demonise him.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on March 29, 2017, 06:00:14 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 29, 2017, 07:03:42 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 28, 2017, 10:49:27 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 27, 2017, 01:00:22 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 01:08:47 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:56:48 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on March 26, 2017, 11:58:18 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on March 26, 2017, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 26, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.
Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.
So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?
Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.

That didn't answer my question.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?
This thread is about Martin McGuiness - What do you think of his likely involvement in some of the murders highlihted in Moloney's article?

Suspected as you say. I'm wise enough to know war blurs lines, there is no defending some of the actions carried out by the Provos but every war or conflict will have these incidents across all sides. Martin McGuinness was an ordinary man who did extraordinary things due to the discrimination and state sponsored terrorism that was taking place in his own community. If you can't take that on board then there's no point discussing matters with you.

Now for the third time of asking.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?

For some reason it seems you are having difficulty applying your moral affliction to other parties, maybe because your ideals are not as pure as you'd like paint.

For what it's worth, Collins was one of the leading IRA men when 13 Protestant civilians were murdered in his home county of Cork over a short period of time. What do you think of Collins? A civilian informant was also murdered by Collins hit squad. What did you think of Collins?
Your comment re "Suspected as you say" speaks volumes.  The dogs in the street have a fair idea about what MMcG was involved in.  As such, you cannot claim there is "no point in discussing matters with you" if you are not going to accept his involvement.

As for your question, I would not condone any act of terrorism.  Not trying to provoke a response, but there is no excuse for the sectarian murder of fellow Protestant Irishmen or "suspected" informants.

So getting back to my original question.

What did you think of Collins, de Valera and Lemass?

You are quite happy to judge McGuinness on idle speculation and convenience but unwilling to comment on others with similar proximity and possible complicity to that you slate McGuinnes for. Why is that?
Can you not read?

I haven't seen you say what you think of Lemass, Collins and de Valera?

I won't be accepting catch all statements on this either.

So what did you think of them?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: haranguerer on March 30, 2017, 08:53:12 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 29, 2017, 05:58:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 29, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Watching the documentary last night I as struck by how many of the people who were demonising Martin McGuiness would have been strong supporters of the marine who murdered a wounded man in cold blood getting his sentence reduced or conviction quashed.

The double standards of the brits is breathtaking.

Nowhere near as bad as some of the +++++ on this board though.  ;)
Didn't see it myself - Who was it that was demonising Martin Mc Guiness?  The many victims of IRA terror, catholic and protestant alike, have every right to demonise him.

I think his point is the hypocrisy - venerating the marine who executed the wounded fighter. I agree with you, and I'm sure you couldn't argue with the many victims of British state terror having every right to demonise the British state.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Applesisapples on March 30, 2017, 09:24:08 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 29, 2017, 05:58:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 29, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Watching the documentary last night I as struck by how many of the people who were demonising Martin McGuiness would have been strong supporters of the marine who murdered a wounded man in cold blood getting his sentence reduced or conviction quashed.

The double standards of the brits is breathtaking.

Nowhere near as bad as some of the +++++ on this board though.  ;)
Didn't see it myself - Who was it that was demonising Martin Mc Guiness?  The many victims of IRA terror, catholic and protestant alike, have every right to demonise him.
Why? surely all the demonising being done, mostly in a one sided manner is counterproductive and not conducive to the two warring factions here reaching a compromise.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: johnneycool on March 30, 2017, 10:55:47 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 29, 2017, 05:58:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 29, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Watching the documentary last night I as struck by how many of the people who were demonising Martin McGuiness would have been strong supporters of the marine who murdered a wounded man in cold blood getting his sentence reduced or conviction quashed.

The double standards of the brits is breathtaking.

Nowhere near as bad as some of the +++++ on this board though.  ;)
Didn't see it myself - Who was it that was demonising Martin Mc Guiness?  The many victims of IRA terror, catholic and protestant alike, have every right to demonise him.

The much maligned oration at McGuinness's graveside by Gerry Adams actually touched on this but people chose to ignore it;

https://www.periscope.tv/w/1mrGmeYdOvdGy

5 minutes on.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Keyser soze on March 30, 2017, 11:04:32 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 29, 2017, 05:58:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 29, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Watching the documentary last night I as struck by how many of the people who were demonising Martin McGuiness would have been strong supporters of the marine who murdered a wounded man in cold blood getting his sentence reduced or conviction quashed.

The double standards of the brits is breathtaking.

Nowhere near as bad as some of the +++++ on this board though.  ;)
Didn't see it myself - Who was it that was demonising Martin Mc Guiness?  The many victims of IRA terror, catholic and protestant alike, have every right to demonise him.

Not saying victims don't, I was mainly referring to other one-eyed commentators, all of whom appeared to be completely au fait with the inner workings of the RA in Derry and much further afield by the sounds of things all through the 70's and 80's. If only the security forces could have accessed the certain knowledge and proof all these guys had Martin would have caused a helluva lot less bother. The depth of their knowledge and certainty of the facts surrounding McGuinness is matched only by their blissful ignorance surrounding the involvement of any other protaganists in the conflict.

So,  a bit like you Michael.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: ned on March 30, 2017, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 30, 2017, 08:53:12 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 29, 2017, 05:58:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 29, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Watching the documentary last night I as struck by how many of the people who were demonising Martin McGuiness would have been strong supporters of the marine who murdered a wounded man in cold blood getting his sentence reduced or conviction quashed.

The double standards of the brits is breathtaking.

Nowhere near as bad as some of the +++++ on this board though.  ;)
Didn't see it myself - Who was it that was demonising Martin Mc Guiness?  The many victims of IRA terror, catholic and protestant alike, have every right to demonise him.

I think his point is the hypocrisy - venerating the marine who executed the wounded fighter. I agree with you, and I'm sure you couldn't argue with the many victims of British state terror having every right to demonise the British state.

Empire 2.0
In an era which attempts to cough-up a new version of Empire, Adam Ramsay offers up an extensive reading list for anyone who wants to avoid the mythology that the British Empire wasn't about: 'cheerful engineers, kindly building railways for people in far off lands'. Here's his list:

The Opium wars;
The Carnatic wars;
The Anglo-Cherokee war;
Pontiac's rebellion;
The Anglo Mysore wars;
The Anglo Maratha wars;
The American Revolutionary war;
The Irish Rebellion;
The Kandyan wars;
The Anglo-Turkishwar;
The Xhosa wars;
The Ga-Fante war;
The war of 1812;
The Anglo-Ashantiwars;
The Anglo-Burmese wars;
Canada's Rebellions of 1837;
The first, second and third Afghan wars;
The Anglo Sikh wars;
The Flagstaff war in New Zealand – and in fact the New Zealand wars in general;
The Anglo-Persian war;
The Black war;
The Indian Rebellion;
The First Taranaki war;
The invasion of Waikato;
The Bhutan war;
The Klang war;
The Titokowaru War;
The 1868 'Expedition' to Abyssinia;
The Red River Rebellion;
The Anglo-Zulu War;
The Sikkim Expedition;
The Anglo-Zanzibar War;
The Boer Wars;
The Anglo-Aro War;
The British expedition to Tibet;
The Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War;
the Irish War of Independence;
The 1920 conflict between British forces and the Dervish State;
the Great Arab Revolt in Palestine;
The British–Zionist conflict;
the Korean War;
the Mau Mau Uprising;
the Cyprus emergency;
the Suez Crisis;
the Border Campaign against the IRA;
the Falklands War.

(Just a few, then.)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Main Street on March 31, 2017, 01:08:37 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 28, 2017, 09:45:45 AM
Quote from: Main Street on March 27, 2017, 05:13:05 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 27, 2017, 10:30:09 AM
Maloney is a journalist, not an historian so you cannot accept as gospel all he writes, that is not to say there are not elemnts of truth. His job though is to sell books. The very people who point the finger at McGuinness et al are the same one who lionise Carson, Craig, Collins, De Valera etc... Some of them have even voted to send UK bombers and troops into Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of them rejoiced at the sinking of the Belgrano. War is dirty i for one do not condone it or the right of any one to kill for any cause, but some balance please.
Apples, you're asking me to decide for myself which part of Maloney's account is truth and which is lies?
We were asked to comment on an article which claimed to have account of McGuinness' actions and in which final damming judgements were passed by Maloney on McGuinness. Maloney has set himself up on a moral and judgemental pedestal.
Veracity is the issue when reading such an account.
When Maloney's credibility as a journalist or historian is shattered in the first two paragraphs,
it is safe to dismiss all he writes in the article. If he ascribes truth to a secret source who we cannot scrutinise, then we have no idea just how much balderdash he tags onto his article in order to support his agenda. And when a source does provide an account which supports Maloney's agenda, what scrutiny does Maloney exercise to inspect that source's account and what importance does he give to witness accounts of the same incident which oppose his agenda?
No I am saying he cannot be read as an historian, but as someone with a skewed version of events to suit his own angle, as is the case with most journalists.
Fair enough. I assume the sparse elements of truth in Maloney's account you refer to, are there to carry a ton of speculations and mistruths.. ;D

Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Owen Brannigan on March 31, 2017, 04:53:26 PM
From today's Newsletter.........


Dr Philip McGarry: The terrorism of McGuinness and others was not 'mindless' - it was mindful Bloodied and shaken.

Friday 31 March 2017

Last week, we witnessed the bizarre juxtaposition of the national media and political establishment going into complete overdrive following the murder of four people in London by a man armed with a car and two knives, alongside a dramatically different response to the death of Martin McGuinness. Mr McGuinness, as outlined in Saturday's News Letter by Ed Moloney ('He was savagely cruel but only McGuinness could end the terror'), for so much more suffering.

While Islamists have killed only 57 people in the UK the IRA claimed over 1,770 victims. Whereas Khalid Masood and Michael Adebolajo (who killed Gunner Lee Rigby in 2013) fortunately had no access to firearms or explosives, the IRA had a large arsenal of sophisticated weaponry and the technical capacity to carry out operations at the heart of government, such as the Brighton bombing and the mortar attack on Downing Street. In truth Masood, variously described as 'a maniac', 'sick and depraved' and (my favourite mindless insult) 'mindless', posed no fundamental threat to British democracy. The IRA, arguably, did.

It is instructive to note that 30 years ago the IRA and the loyalist paramilitaries were routinely described as ' maniacs', 'crazy', 'blood - thirsty' or 'psychopaths'. This was nonsense. Politically motivated violence/terrorism is by definition mindful; it is designed to achieve a political end. Few paramilitaries are mentally ill; indeed the mentally ill would make highly ineffective paramilitaries. Everyone loves a narrative, and that of the 'bad' man becoming a 'good' man is universally compelling.

The aftermath of the Westminster terror attack last week. It was carried out by one man, who had nothing like the access to the arms of the IRA, which has caused many more deaths than Islamic extremists have done in Britain This was the major theme of much of last week's commentary. This is perhaps rather insulting to Martin Mc Guinness as it implies that the 22 year old who met Willie Whitelaw in London was a thoughtless, violent 'Paddy', who was somehow transformed into a totally different Gandhi-type figure. In fact he was always a thoughtful, intelligent strategic thinker who understood that every current generation of physical force nationalists is roundly condemned, by people who simultaneously condone the previous generation who did exactly the same things! Mr McGuinness illustrated this himself by persistently condemning the 'New IRA' as 'criminals' for attacking police officera and shooting young men in the legs.

I have been a consultant psychiatrist since 1991, for much of that time in West Belfast. I did see a few patients who had suffered ill treatment by the army and police. Dr Philip McGarry, consultant psychiatrist and Alliance Party member However this was overwhelmingly dwarfed by the number I saw who were shot or beaten by republican paramilitaries, which were – in a truly Orwellian phrase – deemed by the two governments to be 'on ceasefire'. And we think Donald Trump invented 'alternative facts'!

It is entirely correct that Northern Ireland, prior to 1969 was in many ways a partially sectarian Protestant state; equally the Republic was a partially sectarian Catholic state. However no respectable independent body has ever argued nor could argue that the violence of the loyalists and republicans was a legitimate or remotely proportionate response to those wrongs. It is deeply regrettable that it took so long for that basic concept to be accepted, and it should have us hanging our heads in shame that we had to endure the Abercorn bar, McGurks bar, Enniskillen, the Greysteel massacre and so many other relentless, tawdry killings over so many years.

We should indeed be thankful that large scale violence is unlikely ever to return. Two cheers for that. But the price must not be a psychological amnesia about the past, nor a ''post- truth' rewriting of history. Our young people must not be brought up to believe that the violence was other than totally wrong. To murder human beings and secretly bury the bodies, to cut a man's throat because he happens to be a Catholic, to use men as human bombs; these are such obviously foul and cruel deeds that no society can function properly without openly acknowledging and dealing with them.

Germany is now possibly the world's leading democracy, specifically because it has never stopped taking responsibility for what its people did, and learning from it. One of David Cameron's finest moments was his statement in the House of Commons on the launch of the Saville report that Bloody Sunday was 'unjustified and unjustifiable'. This had the virtue of being simple, clear and honest, and it made a genuine, immediate and lasting impact.

In the wake of the many generous and warm tributes paid from across the spectrum last week to the contribution made by Martin McGuinness in his later years, is it conceivable that Sinn Fein could now state, without equivocation, that the violence of the IRA was unjustified and unjustifiable? That would be a real contribution to peace.

Dr Philip McGarry, whose younger brother is the comedian Tim, is a consultant psychiatrist in Belfast, who worked in the west of the city for 18 years and is a member of the Alliance Party.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: foxcommander on March 31, 2017, 05:04:08 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 31, 2017, 04:53:26 PM
In the wake of the many generous and warm tributes paid from across the spectrum last week to the contribution made by Martin McGuinness in his later years, is it conceivable that Sinn Fein could now state, without equivocation, that the violence of the IRA was unjustified and unjustifiable? That would be a real contribution to peace.


That will never and should never happen. You can not revise history like that. Time and place. You can look back with regret of all the things that were done and make sure it never happens again.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Windmill abu on April 01, 2017, 12:54:21 AM
It looks like the wrong brother is hosting "The Blame Game"
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Avondhu star on April 01, 2017, 06:19:00 PM
Quote from: Windmill abu on April 01, 2017, 12:54:21 AM
It looks like the wrong brother is hosting "The Blame Game"
Because he tells the truth and isnt blinded by propaganda
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Owen Brannigan on April 01, 2017, 07:43:32 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on March 31, 2017, 05:04:08 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 31, 2017, 04:53:26 PM
In the wake of the many generous and warm tributes paid from across the spectrum last week to the contribution made by Martin McGuinness in his later years, is it conceivable that Sinn Fein could now state, without equivocation, that the violence of the IRA was unjustified and unjustifiable? That would be a real contribution to peace.


That will never and should never happen. You can not revise history like that. Time and place. You can look back with regret of all the things that were done and make sure it never happens again.


That statement is not re-writing history, it is asking the question as to whether Sinn Fein will every agree with the majority of people in N.Ireland that the violence of the IRA was unjustified and unjustifiable?  Perhaps you should take a read at the article by Newton Emerson in the Irish Times that explores the fact that the majority of the people in N.Ireland never participated in the conflict, despite their experience of it never felt the need to join with any of the protagonists and most of them just got on with their lives with little regard for what was happening around them.


http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/the-troubles-did-not-find-martin-mcguinness-he-found-them-1.3029156 (http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/the-troubles-did-not-find-martin-mcguinness-he-found-them-1.3029156)


https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/03/30/northern-ireland-survived-the-troubles-through-those-who-kept-small-quotidian-bonds-of-trust/ (https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/03/30/northern-ireland-survived-the-troubles-through-those-who-kept-small-quotidian-bonds-of-trust/)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 
                     
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Minder on April 01, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 
                     

It will never happen
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Over the Bar on April 01, 2017, 10:55:15 PM
Quote from: Minder on April 01, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 

It will never happen

Quite simply no.  When the DUP won't even admit that the Unionist majority discriminated against Catholics it's pretty unlikely they'll come clean about their hand in glove relationship with Loyalist paramilitaries which continues to this day.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Minder on April 01, 2017, 11:00:14 PM
Quote from: Over the Bar on April 01, 2017, 10:55:15 PM
Quote from: Minder on April 01, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 

It will never happen

Quite simply no.  When the DUP won't even admit that the Unionist majority discriminated against Catholics it's pretty unlikely they'll come clean about their hand in glove relationship with Loyalist paramilitaries which continues to this day.

SF no interest either
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: theticklemister on April 02, 2017, 12:33:36 AM
Quote from: Minder on April 01, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 
                     

It will never happen

Just like........

No decommissioning
Smash Stormont
No to meeting the Queen

  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Owen Brannigan on April 02, 2017, 11:50:07 AM
Quote from: theticklemister on April 02, 2017, 12:33:36 AM
Quote from: Minder on April 01, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 
                     

It will never happen

Just like........

No decommissioning
Smash Stormont
No to meeting the Queen

  ::) ::) ::)


It will never happen because SF will never tolerate a truth commission where its members will be expected to come forward to take ownership for their actions even when if an amnesty is offered.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: grounded on April 02, 2017, 12:57:24 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 02, 2017, 11:50:07 AM
Quote from: theticklemister on April 02, 2017, 12:33:36 AM
Quote from: Minder on April 01, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 
                     

It will never happen

Just like........

No decommissioning
Smash Stormont
No to meeting the Queen

  ::) ::) ::)


It will never happen because SF will never tolerate a truth commission where its members will be expected to come forward to take ownership for their actions even when if an amnesty is offered.

I think there are secrets that many groups would like to keep secret for a generation or two. Pat Finucane being only one example. Unfortunately I get the feeling that this is the way of it. Let the secrets die off with the protagonists. When the government's open the files in 50 years or so who will care?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Owen Brannigan on April 02, 2017, 01:05:56 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 02, 2017, 12:57:24 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 02, 2017, 11:50:07 AM
Quote from: theticklemister on April 02, 2017, 12:33:36 AM
Quote from: Minder on April 01, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 
                     

It will never happen

Just like........

No decommissioning
Smash Stormont
No to meeting the Queen

  ::) ::) ::)


It will never happen because SF will never tolerate a truth commission where its members will be expected to come forward to take ownership for their actions even when if an amnesty is offered.

I think there are secrets that many groups would like to keep secret for a generation or two. Pat Finucane being only one example. Unfortunately I get the feeling that this is the way of it. Let the secrets die off with the protagonists. When the government's open the files in 50 years or so who will care?


In this country?
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Avondhu star on April 02, 2017, 10:46:04 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 02, 2017, 01:05:56 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 02, 2017, 12:57:24 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 02, 2017, 11:50:07 AM
Quote from: theticklemister on April 02, 2017, 12:33:36 AM
Quote from: Minder on April 01, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 
                     

It will never happen

Just like........

No decommissioning
Smash Stormont
No to meeting the Queen

  ::) ::) ::)


It will never happen because SF will never tolerate a truth commission where its members will be expected to come forward to take ownership for their actions even when if an amnesty is offered.

I think there are secrets that many groups would like to keep secret for a generation or two. Pat Finucane being only one example. Unfortunately I get the feeling that this is the way of it. Let the secrets die off with the protagonists. When the government's open the files in 50 years or so who will care?


In this country?
Sure the files in Kew from 1916 to 1921 are still restricted
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: grounded on April 02, 2017, 10:52:45 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 02, 2017, 01:05:56 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 02, 2017, 12:57:24 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 02, 2017, 11:50:07 AM
Quote from: theticklemister on April 02, 2017, 12:33:36 AM
Quote from: Minder on April 01, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 
                     

It will never happen

Just like........

No decommissioning
Smash Stormont
No to meeting the Queen

  ::) ::) ::)


It will never happen because SF will never tolerate a truth commission where its members will be expected to come forward to take ownership for their actions even when if an amnesty is offered.

I think there are secrets that many groups would like to keep secret for a generation or two. Pat Finucane being only one example. Unfortunately I get the feeling that this is the way of it. Let the secrets die off with the protagonists. When the government's open the files in 50 years or so who will care?


In this country?

I suppose you're right, its unlikely that most of the illegal activities carried out on and behalf of the British state will ever be revealed. Too many high level political players would be implicated.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: theskull1 on April 20, 2017, 11:31:42 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2017, 10:33:17 AM
I will repeat, read James Kelly's Bonfires on the Hillsides.

Thanks for the recommendation Apples. Read this over the weekend and really enjoyed it. Sadly Westminsters 'keep the black north at arms length' approach is back in fashion again as they've bigger fish to fry with Europe.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Applesisapples on April 20, 2017, 04:53:23 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on April 20, 2017, 11:31:42 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2017, 10:33:17 AM
I will repeat, read James Kelly's Bonfires on the Hillsides.

Thanks for the recommendation Apples. Read this over the weekend and really enjoyed it. Sadly Westminsters 'keep the black north at arms length' approach is back in fashion again as they've bigger fish to fry with Europe.
Glad you enjoyed it, must read it again myself.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Tony Baloney on April 20, 2017, 06:49:37 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on April 20, 2017, 04:53:23 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on April 20, 2017, 11:31:42 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2017, 10:33:17 AM
I will repeat, read James Kelly's Bonfires on the Hillsides.

Thanks for the recommendation Apples. Read this over the weekend and really enjoyed it. Sadly Westminsters 'keep the black north at arms length' approach is back in fashion again as they've bigger fish to fry with Europe.
Glad you enjoyed it, must read it again myself.
What year was this published? I remember going to get my granny a copy at a signing in Donegall St. by James Kelly.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: theskull1 on April 20, 2017, 06:51:50 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 20, 2017, 06:49:37 PM
What year was this published? I remember going to get my granny a copy at a signing in Donegall St. by James Kelly.

1995 Tony
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Owen Brannigan on April 20, 2017, 11:41:21 PM
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bonfires-Hillside-Eyewitness-Political-Upheaval/dp/0952556502/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492727865&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=James+Kelly%27s+Bonfires+on+the+Hillsides+kindle (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bonfires-Hillside-Eyewitness-Political-Upheaval/dp/0952556502/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492727865&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=James+Kelly%27s+Bonfires+on+the+Hillsides+kindle)

Like many books now out of print the price even on the secondhand market is considerable.
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: theskull1 on April 21, 2017, 12:00:14 AM
I paid less than half that for my 2nd hand copy off Amazon a few weeks ago
Title: Re: Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66
Post by: Owen Brannigan on April 21, 2017, 12:17:26 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on April 21, 2017, 12:00:14 AM
I paid less than half that for my 2nd hand copy off Amazon a few weeks ago

Apparently the secondhand market is quite fluid and prices are fluctuating greatly.  In the last few weeks the Lost Lives: The Stories of the Men, Women and Children Who Died as a Result of the Northern Ireland Troubles has rocketed to £150 secondhand.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Lives-Children-Northern-Troubles/dp/184018504X (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Lives-Children-Northern-Troubles/dp/184018504X)