Official Gooners Thread - A New Hope

[ONeill]

It's a bit of a relief that it has all ended.

I see Nasri has criticised the Arsenal fans on Twitter for singing songs about him. Bad songs I guess.

Eboue apparently arriving in Turkey tonight (good place for him) and Bendtner trying everything he can to find a club.

It's some challenge for Wenger now. He has lost the player with the most assists in Europe over the last five years - will Wilshere effortlessly step into his shoes?

The same defensive doubts remain and won't be fixed by one player.

[Dinny Breen]

It's a bit of a relief that it has all ended.

I see Nasri has criticised the Arsenal fans on Twitter for singing songs about him. Bad songs I guess.

Eboue apparently arriving in Turkey tonight (good place for him) and Bendtner trying everything he can to find a club.

It's some challenge for Wenger now. He has lost the player with the most assists in Europe over the last five years - will Wilshere effortlessly step into his shoes?

The same defensive doubts remain and won't be fixed by one player.

My doubts have lessened, TV5 back for the season and Chesney Hawkes looks the real deal and a fit Gibbs is a much better defender than Clichy, so one quality CB and one good left back and I think Arsenal will be quite good defensively, experience in defence is always the key and another year older will only be of benefit.

[ONeill]

Hope you're right. That Carling Cup final still gives me nightmares...

[ross4life]

If Gibbs,Sagna gets injured whos the full back cover?

[Puckoon]

I think when a player makes it public knowledge that he wants to go, you're always going to get shafted as a club, in terms of market value. The extent of the shafting depends on how much you stick to your guns and are prepared to let him rot in the stands.

Arsenal did a reasonable job, over 12 months, but that shit would wear you down.

He was never staying - they had no chance at persuading him. Release a statement at the start of the summer. Yes - Cesc is for sale.  fixed price (40-50 million) - non negotionable by transfer deadline. Stuck to it. Arsenal are as spineless at times in the boardroom as they are at the back. This deal now is awful.

[Evil Genius]

I think when a player makes it public knowledge that he wants to go, you're always going to get shafted as a club, in terms of market value.

Not necessarily. For instance Berbatov had been agitating to move to MU right from the moment he heard they were interested. And iirc, MU's opening bid was around £20m. Spurs held out until the very last minute of the window and got £30m*.

And it will be exactly the same with Modric and Chelsea, if the latter are determined to get him, Spurs already having turned down bids of £22m and £27m.


* - Incidentally, Berba's fee was almost three times what Spurs paid for him (£11m). With Luca having cost £16.5m, the equivalent return for Spurs would be £50m, but my guess is that Chels might get him for around £35m.

[Boycey]

I think when a player makes it public knowledge that he wants to go, you're always going to get shafted as a club, in terms of market value.

Not necessarily. For instance Berbatov had been agitating to move to MU right from the moment he heard they were interested. And iirc, MU's opening bid was around £20m. Spurs held out until the very last minute of the window and got £30m*.

And it will be exactly the same with Modric and Chelsea, if the latter are determined to get him, Spurs already having turned down bids of £22m and £27m.


* - Incidentally, Berba's fee was almost three times what Spurs paid for him (£11m). With Luca having cost £16.5m, the equivalent return for Spurs would be £50m, but my guess is that Chels might get him for around £35m.

Slight difference with Berba would be that there was a 3rd party involved, City, who pushed the price up. As much as Berba wanted to join United he was also prepared to join for City if he had to, sure he was City bound before Fergie kidnapped him. But with Fabregas he was never going anywhere but Barca who could afford to play hardball..

Barca will hardly feel they got a bargain anyway as the player was basically stolen from them when he was 16. Note, this isn't a dig at Arsenal, all English clubs have taken advantage of the laws in other European countries not allowing clubs to offer youngsters professional contracts til they're 18? United did it with Rossi and Pique to name 2.

[Go home ref]

I know I shouldn't be surprised, but that was disgraceful carry-on by Barton on Saturday.

He's an idiot and if he was a foreign player he'd be hung out to dry but because he is the latest media TWITter darling his actions were conveniently by-passed.

The media in England have turned the EPL into a soap opera, it really is becoming impossible to sit down enjoy a bit of escapism without some idiot pundit or journalist talking uninformed balderdash telling you what you should think.

Conveniently by passed? He was slated by every pundit and paper in England and also Song's actions were far worse than Barton's stamping on a player like that is disgraceful also Gervihno dived and then slapped Barton across the face that's a red simple as if Barton had done what Gervihno or Song had done we'd never hear the end of it

[Dinny Breen]

I know I shouldn't be surprised, but that was disgraceful carry-on by Barton on Saturday.

He's an idiot and if he was a foreign player he'd be hung out to dry but because he is the latest media TWITter darling his actions were conveniently by-passed.

The media in England have turned the EPL into a soap opera, it really is becoming impossible to sit down enjoy a bit of escapism without some idiot pundit or journalist talking uninformed balderdash telling you what you should think.

Conveniently by passed? He was slated by every pundit and paper in England and also Song's actions were far worse than Barton's stamping on a player like that is disgraceful also Gervihno dived and then slapped Barton across the face that's a red simple as if Barton had done what Gervihno or Song had done we'd never hear the end of it

Every pundit and every newspaper, really?

This is an extract from The Guardian match report, the first one I looked at at.

Gervinho was lying on the floor attempting to make a meal of minimal contact in a fair challenge by Cheik Tioté when Joey Barton came across to tell him to get on with the game. Gervinho took offence, a scuffle turned into a melee and, amid all the handbags, the Ivorian connected with a girly slap to Barton's temple. Barton probably did not need to fall down as if poleaxed, though he did, and Peter Walton probably did not have to produce a red card, though he did. Barton was given a yellow card, which was possibly slightly harsh,

Currently the negativity in the reporting around The Arsenal has reached epidemic proportions, there is no middle ground in sports reporting anymore and it's not confined to soccer either (just look at the reaction in some quarters to England's defeat in a World Cup warm-up). Joey Barton is been indulged by the media because of his current twitter exploits and is making good copy, Arsenal on the other hand are a story of a team in decline whose manager has gone insane. This is all because they compete in an environment against the 3rd largest club in the world and a money-making machine but indebted to millions who need sustained success to stave off creditors and 2 teams funded by billionaires who work off false financial models.  Anyone who knows Arsenal football club know they often go years without winning a trophy, I'm a child of the 80s and winning the league cup in 87 was fantastic, losing it in 88 not so good, anyhow I divulge. Success is relative and trophies use only be a reward of success now they are the definition of failure.

Sports reporting has become seriously unbalanced and where no story exists the media try and try to create, the EPL has become the worst model, a soap opera for men where flash cars and super models wives have replaced tactical insight and debates around formations and the benefit of the catenaccio system of play.

And it's easy to become wrapped up in such stories, that is the power of media manipulation but I now find myself only reading an article in an on-line newspaper as a basis so that I can go through the comments sections as that is generally where the insightful and knowledgeable analysis is to be found, likewise on forums, taking the EPL as the context the Arsenal and Liverpool threads on this board are generally full of good discussion and observations.

Liverpool and Arsenal play this weekend, the losers will be in crisis but in reality a team will have just lost it's first football match of the season, players come and players go but the club as Leeds fans will testify will always remain constant.

[ludermor]

Ah Jasus Dinny almost every report i have seen of the match ( and seperate articles after) have vilified Barton!! And most only give a passing reference to Song stamping on him.

[gerry]

How come all arsenal games seem to be big games. If we lose these two european games and do not qualify for the CL it will be harder to get quality players in seeing that we will not break the bank to sign them. No rvp and the boss sitting in the stands will lead to a interesting night.

[Billys Boots]

Liverpool and Arsenal play this weekend, the losers will be in crisis but in reality a team will have just lost it's first football match of the season, players come and players go but the club as Leeds fans will testify will always remain constant.

Yep.  Leeds are in crisis already; two games played, no points.  Still getting full houses though.

[ONeill]

Dinny, I don't share your dismissiveness. Like you, I was a child of the times when Arsenal would pop their head out of the clouds every now and again and disappear, although never a bottom half team. The Don Howe era was uninspiring but competitive.

All that changed 25 years ago when George Graham took over. 1987, 1888, 1989 and 1991. The were winning things and making finals. They became the first English side back into the European Cup. People across the globe were taking notice. The first team to do the cup double in '93. Back to back Euro finals in '94 and '95. That type of international exposure allowed Arsenal to attract the likes of Bergkamp. Then Wenger, the stadium, the players and it elevated Arsenal to almost superpower level without actually winning the CL.

The Arsenal of 2011 is a different club to the Arsenal of 1986. I would find it unacceptable if Tyrone reverted back to the footballing county it was before 1986, winning one title a decade and getting hammered any time they met a non-Ulster side. Those days are gone because the county has developed. Arsenal, through reaching the CL every year and attracting world class players, have become a different club from what they were 25 years ago and should never return to that. That's the challenge.

At the minute, given the quality of the squad, there's a chance that Wenger's present side could be left behind and lose what they've built. It's not a crisis but anyone with a smidgeon of foresight can see that the next 12 months are potentially choppy.

[Dinny Breen]

Unacceptable? - If they end up ala Villa, Everton or worse Leeds, will you give up on them?

I'm not dismissive as such, there is validity in some of the criticisms but too many seem like personal attacks on Wenger and the negativity around any article on Arsenal is what I'm actually dismissive of, there is no middle ground or objective reporting.

Even 12 months is short-term-ism in my opinion, when the stadium is clear of debt, when UEFA's financial fair-play kicks in, that should be the time to judge Arsenal. Even Wenger's comments on the Fabregas transfer fee(see below) are pure common sense, Wenger cares about Arsenal and cares about his players, the more I actually think about it, the future of Arsenal is dependent on Wenger staying. If he leaves then Arsenal will be in crisis because all his future planning will be evaporated and Arsenal could well turn into a Leeds or Newcastle as they try to compete in the now.

Arsenal supporters in my opinion should be wary of what they wish for.

We sold Cesc for a reduced fee," said the Arsenal manager.

"If Cesc is for sale and you can make an auction between Real Madrid, Chelsea and Manchester City, you will certainly get more money, but he just wanted to go to Barcelona.

"If he was on the market to any club we would have got more money, but we did want to get a decent fee.

"That's what I'm paid for. You cannot say because you want to get the deal done as quickly as possible: 'Just take him and give us what you want'.

"You have to fight for your rights. What is good is that you call multi-million pound players 'cheap'."

Wenger believes there is a possibility that Fabregas will return to the Emirates Stadium at some point in the distant future.

He said: "Cesc went because he was desperate to play for his hometown club, where he was educated.

[Billys Boots]

I'm with Dinny on this one; as a football fan I'd hate to see Arsenal doing anything differently, even at the cost of trophies.  Gambling the hard-built system for temporary successes would be a significant backwards step.  And allowing the beancounters/MBA graduates to run the football side of the organisation will just result in another financial nightmare.