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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: blast05 on July 18, 2017, 03:31:13 PM

Title: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: blast05 on July 18, 2017, 03:31:13 PM
What are peoples experiences and opinions on this?
I am one of the coaches of an U-8 team and would be happy for them to only start being somewhat concerned about winning by the time they are U-16. Until then, primary focus is on enjoyment and life's lessons and ensuring the kids are playing at a grade suitable to their level (i.e.: they are not getting hammered). I know my other mentors will not agree by the time we come to U-10.
The counter argument to my position is that for far too many things that kids do, its all about 'everyones the best' and 'lets all have fun'. The real world is of course different and there is a lot to be said for say Irish dancing where it is ultra competitive (under the main governing body at least) and you learn quickly that if you want something you have to bloody well work hard for it.

Do any of your clubs have policies on this ?!
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Syferus on July 18, 2017, 04:12:43 PM
U16 is an age at which inter-county panels will have been assembled for at least two years already - it makes no sense to leave it that late if one of the aims is for players to reach their full potential.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: lurganblue on July 18, 2017, 04:17:54 PM
Under 16 in Lurgan is time for Buckfast and girls.  Competitiveness is already over  ;)
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: OgraAnDun on July 18, 2017, 04:27:29 PM
I was in U10 when Go Games was introduced in Down and the league was removed and I thought it was the end of the world. I can remember classmates in U12 slagging us off about if. Kids will be competitive and keep their own mental score regardless of what the administrators or referees say.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: blast05 on July 18, 2017, 06:03:15 PM
So, if its competitive from say U-12 and you have 30 lads coming to training, how do you give more than 20 of them a game ?
In other words, in being competitive, are you happy to accept you are going to lose 10 lads .... any of whom could well be the star guy at minor if they continue to get the chance
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Syferus on July 18, 2017, 06:06:46 PM
Quote from: blast05 on July 18, 2017, 06:03:15 PM
So, if its competitive from say U-12 and you have 30 lads coming to training, how do you give more than 20 of them a game ?
In other words, in being competitive, are you happy to accept you are going to lose 10 lads .... any of whom could well be the star guy at minor if they continue to get the chance

There won't be much of a team of stars at minor (U17 now) if they only start taking it serious a year beforehand.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Zulu on July 18, 2017, 06:14:41 PM
Quote from: blast05 on July 18, 2017, 06:03:15 PM
So, if its competitive from say U-12 and you have 30 lads coming to training, how do you give more than 20 of them a game ?
In other words, in being competitive, are you happy to accept you are going to lose 10 lads .... any of whom could well be the star guy at minor if they continue to get the chance

Could you not field two teams? Or attend as many tournaments as possible to give players who don't get much championship time more games?
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: StephenC on July 18, 2017, 09:58:35 PM
The current system works IMO. U8 and U10 are non-competitive* while U12 and upwards are.

*Non-competitive to me doesn't mean that the kids aren't aware if they won or lost (try keeping a group of U8's from keeping the score in a game), it means .... everyone gets a game and gametime/position doesn't depend on who is winning .... results are not publicised in the media ....
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Itchy on July 18, 2017, 10:01:47 PM
Quote from: StephenC on July 18, 2017, 09:58:35 PM
The current system works IMO. U8 and U10 are non-competitive* while U12 and upwards are.

*Non-competitive to me doesn't mean that the kids aren't aware if they won or lost (try keeping a group of U8's from keeping the score in a game), it means .... everyone gets a game and gametime/position doesn't not depend on who is winning .... results are not publicised in the media ....

Exactly. Although I would say at U12, if you are serious about developing kids, each player should get same time on pitch regardless of the score. The key goal is to keep as many playing as possible. Obviously fielding 2 teams if you have the numbers is the best way to do this.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Throw ball on July 18, 2017, 10:42:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 18, 2017, 10:01:47 PM
Quote from: StephenC on July 18, 2017, 09:58:35 PM
The current system works IMO. U8 and U10 are non-competitive* while U12 and upwards are.

*Non-competitive to me doesn't mean that the kids aren't aware if they won or lost (try keeping a group of U8's from keeping the score in a game), it means .... everyone gets a game and gametime/position doesn't not depend on who is winning .... results are not publicised in the media ....

Exactly. Although I would say at U12, if you are serious about developing kids, each player should get same time on pitch regardless of the score. The key goal is to keep as many playing as possible. Obviously fielding 2 teams if you have the numbers is the best way to do this.

This is something I have had many discussions about.
I think on average you lose 40% of players from under 10 to under 16. If you do not give everyone equal time up to under 12 you risk losing more. Equally you need to keep as many involved as possible as clubs don't just need players but also need administrators,  referees, ticket sellers etc.. If kids feel they are not being treated fairly you are losing more than a player. Even in simple football terms you could be losing his brother or sister or friends who are better players.

I read somewhere that it has been proven that inclusiveness breeds better players in the long run.

I also feel that it is the club's responsibility to look after the players. Destroying a young persons confidence at an early age can have lasting effects.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: An Astrail on July 19, 2017, 06:20:34 AM
A perspective from coaching Aussie Rules in Sydney.

We are officially non-competitive up to and including U10s - this means results aren't posted online and there is no league table or finals series. But scores are usually kept informally by the teams involved and performances are recognised by the clubs and coaches.

From U11 upwards competitive football comes in and from U13 representative teams are selected.

To be honest I always feel that the non-competitive stuff is as much a control on coaches who get carried away with winning at the expense of developing a team of players for the long term. The kids want to win, and they know whether they win or lose, but there's nothing worse than the aggressive junior coach who spends all his time on a few at the expense of the many.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: magpie seanie on July 19, 2017, 08:59:30 AM
In supposedly non-competitive games at U8 and U10 level we regularly encounter clubs who would bring 12 players to an 11 a side game or 10 players to a 9 a side game. Meanwhile we'd have 18 or 20 that you'd be trying to rotate. The stronger players are getting frustrated at standing on the sidelines for half the game and watching their team lose (they are well aware of the score) and the team mentors heads are wrecked trying to rotate the players fairly. I believe what our club is doing is correct and will stand to us in the long term but it's a balls of a system when others are taking the piss or simply don't have the same numbers as you do. If you complain what can the county board coaching and games group do? Nothing. The alternative is to organise games yourself against other clubs but that's a mammoth task when you have big numbers of boys and girls. I have coaches who are doing tremendous work getting seriously pissed off with all of this and they're getting tired of me telling them to stick with it, that they're doing the right thing.

I understand the thinking behind non-competitive games but let's face it - everyone cannot win all the time in life as well as sport. You have to learn to lose as well. I think we're overdoing the mollycoddling a touch. I'm not sure what's the right thing but certainly I thought removing U12 from being a proper championship was wrong. Run a Go-games format league but have a proper championship at the end to introduce kids to it.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: johnneycool on July 19, 2017, 11:12:42 AM
Quote from: An Astrail on July 19, 2017, 06:20:34 AM
A perspective from coaching Aussie Rules in Sydney.

We are officially non-competitive up to and including U10s - this means results aren't posted online and there is no league table or finals series. But scores are usually kept informally by the teams involved and performances are recognised by the clubs and coaches.

From U11 upwards competitive football comes in and from U13 representative teams are selected.

To be honest I always feel that the non-competitive stuff is as much a control on coaches who get carried away with winning at the expense of developing a team of players for the long term. The kids want to win, and they know whether they win or lose, but there's nothing worse than the aggressive junior coach who spends all his time on a few at the expense of the many.

Bang on the money.

Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: manfromdelmonte on July 19, 2017, 04:13:31 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 19, 2017, 08:59:30 AM
In supposedly non-competitive games at U8 and U10 level we regularly encounter clubs who would bring 12 players to an 11 a side game or 10 players to a 9 a side game. Meanwhile we'd have 18 or 20 that you'd be trying to rotate. The stronger players are getting frustrated at standing on the sidelines for half the game and watching their team lose (they are well aware of the score) and the team mentors heads are wrecked trying to rotate the players fairly. I believe what our club is doing is correct and will stand to us in the long term but it's a balls of a system when others are taking the piss or simply don't have the same numbers as you do. If you complain what can the county board coaching and games group do? Nothing. The alternative is to organise games yourself against other clubs but that's a mammoth task when you have big numbers of boys and girls. I have coaches who are doing tremendous work getting seriously pissed off with all of this and they're getting tired of me telling them to stick with it, that they're doing the right thing.

I understand the thinking behind non-competitive games but let's face it - everyone cannot win all the time in life as well as sport. You have to learn to lose as well. I think we're overdoing the mollycoddling a touch. I'm not sure what's the right thing but certainly I thought removing U12 from being a proper championship was wrong. Run a Go-games format league but have a proper championship at the end to introduce kids to it.
happens to us all the time

or the other clubs bring an overage player or two just to be competitive
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Kilkevan on July 19, 2017, 05:38:33 PM
Under 14 but only then mildly so and the focus should be on learning and enjoying. The substitutions idea in the Feile is great so everyone gets a game. Introduce them to it gradually at that age, a bit more serious at under 16 ready to fully go for it at minor level. Under 12s down should just be purely about enjoyment.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Wildweasel74 on July 19, 2017, 07:12:24 PM
U-14 the correct level
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Throw ball on July 19, 2017, 07:21:45 PM
People have raised many valid points and it is good to hear so many agree that getting kids playing is the important thing. I appreciate that this can be difficult if you are a club low in numbers or - as is the case in my club - you have enough players to make 3 teams. As I am sure many will know some parents can prove a problem in this area too as they feel their fella should be on longer or some other fella should never get on. I always think it is a good idea for registration for each age group to include setting out the club policy on fair game time for all.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: AZOffaly on October 01, 2018, 07:49:22 PM
Had to resurrect this one as I heard a doozy recently. You have to wonder sometimes. In order to spare blushes I'll refrain from naming teams.

Under 12 C championship. 11 a side with the rule being you must have at least 13 and all subs must get at least 1 half. In some Uber competitive clubs this has led to texts telling lads to give tonight a miss so team X doesn't weaken themselves too much at half time.

Anyway recent scenario, C championship 11 a side. Team B brings the bare 13. At half time the two subs come on, but something is suspicious. Turns out the mentors had asked the two subs to swap jerseys with two starters to make it appear they had made the changes.

Unbelievable Jeff.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: clonadmad on October 01, 2018, 08:13:04 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 01, 2018, 07:49:22 PM
Had to resurrect this one as I heard a doozy recently. You have to wonder sometimes. In order to spare blushes I'll refrain from naming teams.

Under 12 C championship. 11 a side with the rule being you must have at least 13 and all subs must get at least 1 half. In some Uber competitive clubs this has led to texts telling lads to give tonight a miss so team X doesn't weaken themselves too much at half time.

Anyway recent scenario, C championship 11 a side. Team B brings the bare 13. At half time the two subs come on, but something is suspicious. Turns out the mentors had asked the two subs to swap jerseys with two starters to make it appear they had made the changes.

Unbelievable Jeff.

U12 C County Semi Final

St.Marys Clonmel v Shannon Rovers

Tipp county board dealt with it well.(club thrown out of the competition,mentors banned,€1k fine)

If that's the game your talking about,both teams had the full 15 man panel.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: manfromdelmonte on October 02, 2018, 07:53:18 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 01, 2018, 07:49:22 PM
Had to resurrect this one as I heard a doozy recently. You have to wonder sometimes. In order to spare blushes I'll refrain from naming teams.

Under 12 C championship. 11 a side with the rule being you must have at least 13 and all subs must get at least 1 half. In some Uber competitive clubs this has led to texts telling lads to give tonight a miss so team X doesn't weaken themselves too much at half time.

Anyway recent scenario, C championship 11 a side. Team B brings the bare 13. At half time the two subs come on, but something is suspicious. Turns out the mentors had asked the two subs to swap jerseys with two starters to make it appear they had made the changes.

Unbelievable Jeff.
I saw a team doing that at the Feile hurling in June
Take two lads off in first half (as per the rules)
they come back on at half time with different jerseys, despite them having another 7 lads on the line
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Maiden1 on October 02, 2018, 09:57:17 AM
The thing that drives me crazy at u8 or u10 blitzes is that the manager a lot of time seem to think they must win at all cost or they will be shamed in the parish forever.  Not only do some of the kids rarely get on but the one or two dig hairy lads for that grade who can beat the whole other team or there own are given free licence to do that.  Most of the other young fellas are standing around getting cold and have gained nothing at all from coming and the good ones are getting really bad habits that is going to be hard to correct when they get older.

If every team was given a random coloured jersey at an u8 blitz and I walked in without knowing which teams where which I could almost certainly tell within 5 minutes which team was Kilcoo.  They aren't any stronger than anyone else at that grade but they are already getting the young fellas to play as a team, look up, pass, move etc.  They may even be losing matches at that grade because of this team first mentality but winning big time in the long run as all their players are involved in the game, improving and learning the correct way to play.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: DuffleKing on October 02, 2018, 09:58:54 AM

Clubs that take 18 to 9 aside blitzes are equally as culpable in stunting player development. They should be fielding 2 teams and giving them all the maximum amount of game time
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: johnnycool on October 02, 2018, 03:25:12 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on October 02, 2018, 09:57:17 AM
The thing that drives me crazy at u8 or u10 blitzes is that the manager a lot of time seem to think they must win at all cost or they will be shamed in the parish forever.  Not only do some of the kids rarely get on but the one or two dig hairy lads for that grade who can beat the whole other team or there own are given free licence to do that.  Most of the other young fellas are standing around getting cold and have gained nothing at all from coming and the good ones are getting really bad habits that is going to be hard to correct when they get older.

If every team was given a random coloured jersey at an u8 blitz and I walked in without knowing which teams where which I could almost certainly tell within 5 minutes which team was Kilcoo.  They aren't any stronger than anyone else at that grade but they are already getting the young fellas to play as a team, look up, pass, move etc.  They may even be losing matches at that grade because of this team first mentality but winning big time in the long run as all their players are involved in the game, improving and learning the correct way to play.

Some clubs in Down are mental at times.

I was down at the Croke Park open day for U12's last year where in Down each club is allowed 5 kids and they all get a run out on the pitch. The Down coaching staff normally put bibs on four clubs so that there's a 10 aside game across the width of Croke Park. This one club, the parents were roaring and shouting at the kids as if it was an AI final.
The same club were playing an U12 league cup semi-final (type of thing) where it was to be 13 aside, but if you hadn't numbers both teams had to play 11 aside. they'd 14 or 15 kids stripped out but were insisting on playing 11 aside. The lad coordinating the event made them play 13 and got a dig in his ribs with a hurl for his troubles.

These are the reasons U12 and down must remain go-games and it's nothing to do with the behaviour of the kids who are inherently competitive anyway and that's a good thing.

We'd a lad taking our U12's who was looking to cancel fixtures because some of his best players were away to the Gaeltacht. He wasn't allowed as he'd good numbers to make up the difference, but his parting line to me was that if we loose it would be my fault. My response to him needs a few asterisks plus the lads won anyway but that wasn't the point.
I get the distinct impression that some coaches feel that getting beat reflects badly on them where in some instances its actually the opposite.

Swapping jerseys on young lads in Feile and the likes is beyond the pale all the same, but the kids shouldn't be punished by throwing them out of competitions. Certainly ban the mentors and fine the club as a deterrent.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Rudi on October 02, 2018, 04:51:07 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on October 02, 2018, 09:58:54 AM

Clubs that take 18 to 9 aside blitzes are equally as culpable in stunting player development. They should be fielding 2 teams and giving them all the maximum amount of game time

That's not always possible, the opposition you play might only have 9-16 lads. I'm in charge of an U-10 team with 16 players. I have used u9 players to supplement numbers in order to get 2 teams out. How many U9 players I require depends upon parents texting back within the allowed time frame, something the majority of parents could not give a shit about. Its a thankless job, the kids are great, parents are too busy to cop on to the hassle not texting back creates. Have a game that will involve 22 players this weekend, only after finding out a soccer game involving most of the lads is on around the same time, hence the reason I ain't getting the volume of texts I anticipated. I sent the text to soccer coaches about this game 1 month ago and did not get any feed back about a conflicting game.

Last games were 9 a side with 2 teams, 30 lads turned up, all got plenty of game time. 12 lads standing around acting the maggot ,while trying to coach a team is no good either.

Tis not easy, don't know if I will be arsed next year.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: manfromdelmonte on October 02, 2018, 05:24:46 PM
Teams not rotating players around the field to play in different positions always annoyed me at U8 and U10
Sure, leave the good lad in midfield all day... How would any other young lad benefit from playing there.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: bigarsedkeeper on October 02, 2018, 05:34:45 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on October 02, 2018, 09:57:17 AM
The thing that drives me crazy at u8 or u10 blitzes is that the manager a lot of time seem to think they must win at all cost or they will be shamed in the parish forever.  Not only do some of the kids rarely get on but the one or two dig hairy lads for that grade who can beat the whole other team or there own are given free licence to do that.  Most of the other young fellas are standing around getting cold and have gained nothing at all from coming and the good ones are getting really bad habits that is going to be hard to correct when they get older.

If every team was given a random coloured jersey at an u8 blitz and I walked in without knowing which teams where which I could almost certainly tell within 5 minutes which team was Kilcoo.  They aren't any stronger than anyone else at that grade but they are already getting the young fellas to play as a team, look up, pass, move etc.  They may even be losing matches at that grade because of this team first mentality but winning big time in the long run as all their players are involved in the game, improving and learning the correct way to play.

100% agree with this. In our club we mostly play small non competitive blitzes/games throughout the year for 8s especially but got invited to a couple of tournaments with cups at the end of the year. Needless to say normal enough fellas lost their minds on the sideline. Managers telling lads to take players out, managers not making any subs, wee lads and girls upset with not getting playing, parents losing their shit because their lad didn't play every minute and men challenging refs decisions. Don't agree with it all.

I have helped out at the hurling this year too and it's completely different.

On Kilcoo - say their U8s and they are brilliantly coached. Although our lads kept with them it was the way they played with the ball that stood out. Conor Laverty is a fantastic coach
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Sweeper 123 on October 02, 2018, 05:48:05 PM
For me the Question is when do you play younger players from a different age group , who is getting plenty of game time, over someone of the correct age , who is just not as good as them? Just so you can win
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Itchy on October 03, 2018, 12:16:06 PM
Quote from: Sweeper 123 on October 02, 2018, 05:48:05 PM
For me the Question is when do you play younger players from a different age group , who is getting plenty of game time, over someone of the correct age , who is just not as good as them? Just so you can win

Answer = never at underage

If you do you are incredibly short sighted.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: thebackbar1 on October 03, 2018, 01:14:42 PM
For me the question is do you want to win underage titles or bring as many players through to adult level as possible
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Itchy on October 03, 2018, 01:36:48 PM
Quote from: thebackbar1 on October 03, 2018, 01:14:42 PM
For me the question is do you want to win underage titles or bring as many players through to adult level as possible

Or strike a balance between both. Its an age old question. Try to be in the middle and fair but its a tough job sometimes.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Kickham csc on October 03, 2018, 03:58:48 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 03, 2018, 12:16:06 PM
Quote from: Sweeper 123 on October 02, 2018, 05:48:05 PM
For me the Question is when do you play younger players from a different age group , who is getting plenty of game time, over someone of the correct age , who is just not as good as them? Just so you can win

Answer = never at underage

If you do you are incredibly short sighted.

In the English Soccer academies, they allow for older players to play down and younger players to play up. All based on development needs for the kids. For e.g. my sons team have a 5'8'' U12 playing U14, and  have smaller U14's playing down.

Would never work in GAA land, but with the right intent, it works well
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 11, 2018, 08:40:00 AM
I don't know if this is the right thread for this, but at a school blitz yesterday, one of the teachers of another school had around 9 subs. Now they have small numbers but this is mini sevens we're talking about, and big and small enter. Some big schools have 2 teams. Should he have put on the subs or should he have left some of them back at school seeing as none of them got gametime? If it were me, I'd pick 3 subs and give all a run. Instead of leaving the nine on the ground doing nothing.

Edited to say he was up and down the line roaring and shouting 'instructions' all the time.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: Itchy on October 11, 2018, 08:48:44 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 11, 2018, 08:40:00 AM
I don't know if this is the right thread for this, but at a school blitz yesterday, one of the teachers of another school had around 9 subs. Now they have small numbers but this is mini sevens we're talking about, and big and small enter. Some big schools have 2 teams. Should he have put on the subs or should he have left some of them back at school seeing as none of them got gametime? If it were me, I'd pick 3 subs and give all a run. Instead of leaving the nine on the ground doing nothing.

Edited to say he was up and down the line roaring and shouting 'instructions' all the time.

As bad as some clowns are in clubs, teachers in schools are worse. I've seen some insane stuff driven by absolute win at all costs
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: snoopdog on October 11, 2018, 10:32:06 AM
Does anyone think the kids start far too early nowadays. How many cant be arsed with it by the time they are 12. Every sat a game in either football or hurling with training for both 1 night a week each at 7 years of age is madness in my opinion. Football and hurling when i was a kid started at u12 and summer was for hurling . Football was run through feb to april/may.
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: BenDover on October 12, 2018, 08:13:11 AM
Quote from: farset on October 11, 2018, 08:59:59 AM
So in South Antrim there is a whole fixture list set up so that all club from u10 down get games instead of having to ring around all the time to arrange your own. It works great. The scores aren't kept and go games rules are applied.

However there are many many tournaments organised too by different clubs both inside and outside of the county. Generally you are only permitted to bring 12 players and are therefore left with a predicament. Do you rotate and give everyone a go? Or do you bring your strongest 12 to those tournaments. Most other clubs are bringing their strongest so I think that's what you do. Don't think there's anything wrong with teaching kids the nature of championships/tournaments. So long as throughout the year all of your kids are getting a fair crack on a weekly basis I think it's OK to bring your stronger kids to tournaments.

Similar setup in Armagh and I know our club rotate the squads every weekend to give every child a chance to play. There's a lot to be said for going to a blitz were there's no silverware on offer and to a tournament with a cup were expectations from parents/players/coaches seem to go through the roof. However I do like the tournament for, mat were a club has to bring 2 teams and the result is based on the aggregate score from both teams. I've witnessed the antics of some coaches @ U10 this year and tbh it's shocking; bringing squads to 10 a side tournaments and not giving the subs a fair go, encroaching on the pitch to shout instructions, abuse referees... madness. Just Let Them Play
Title: Re: At what age should underage football/hurling be competitive
Post by: befair on October 12, 2018, 11:13:37 AM
Kids develop at different stages; the tiny lad at 10 might be formidable by 18, but  if he isn't getting a run won't stick with it. Time enough to be competitive by U-14.