The OFFICIAL Liverpool Supporters thread

[Over the Bar]

Torres looked out of sorts tonight

Can't do it in the big games.....

[FermPundit]

I watched the Mark Lawrenson interview on BBC sport earlier and he is seriously depressed about the situation at Anfield. It's looking bleak in his opinion. What I can't understand is why the americans think Kilnsmann was ideal for the job?? Unproven at club level.

I was chatting Liverpool fans at work today and they have a feeling that Mourinho will be at Anfield in the summer... wishful thinking perhaps

[The Real Laoislad]

I watched the Mark Lawrenson interview on BBC sport earlier and he is seriously depressed about the situation at Anfield. It's looking bleak in his opinion. What I can't understand is why the americans think Kilnsmann was ideal for the job?? Unproven at club level.

I was chatting Liverpool fans at work today and they have a feeling that Mourinho will be at Anfield in the summer... wishful thinking perhaps

Can't see that happening but stranger things have happened..He certainly has a love/hate realationship with the Anfield faithfull

[FermPundit]

I watched the Mark Lawrenson interview on BBC sport earlier and he is seriously depressed about the situation at Anfield. It's looking bleak in his opinion. What I can't understand is why the americans think Kilnsmann was ideal for the job?? Unproven at club level.

I was chatting Liverpool fans at work today and they have a feeling that Mourinho will be at Anfield in the summer... wishful thinking perhaps

Can't see that happening but stranger things have happened..He certainly has a love/hate realationship with the Anfield faithfull

I suppose Mourinho would look at the situation at Liverpool and see it as a major challenge to win the league after nearly 20 years. The premier league is the best competition in europe and I would be surprised if Jose didn't miss it. In saying this given his cold relationship with Roman at Chelsea I'm not sure if Mourinho would enjoy getting involved at 'politics' at another club. Unless the Americans sell up I can't see him heading to Merseyside.

[The Real Laoislad]

Americans selling up is a option i like...
We defiantly backed the wrong horse when you see how well the Thai's money is going at Man City

[AZOffaly]

Magpie Seanie called it dead right when they came in. LFC were so desperate for a financial saviour to challenge the clout of united and Chelsea that they were welcomed with open arms, especially when they made all the right noises.

Now it seems they are much more circumspect about spending money, and even backing the manager. They are running scared from the weak dollar and it's affecting the club in a real way.

However, contrary to popular sentiment here, when things were going poorly in November, and when the row was at it's height, and when Rafa's agent was leaking stories with Real Madrid, I think the two yanks would have been mad *not* to talk to potential candidates to replace Rafa had he left. It's contingency planning and it seems eminently sensible to me. The stupid part, and the part that makes me think they are now seriously trying to undermine him and make him quit, is to release that fact to the press now, 2 months after it happened.

I think this is a clumsy attempt to engineer Rafa to walk away, thereby sparing them a settlement claim. What they've done now is undermined him, undermined the team and also, ironically, left themselves open to a constructive dismissal claim were Rafa to walk.

Whether we like it or not, soccer is no longer a game, it is now a multi-billion pound international business. And when business men get involved, profit becomes the name of the game, not winning. Winning is only important if it drives profits.

[Minder]

Americans selling up is a option i like...
We defiantly backed the wrong horse when you see how well the Thai's money is going at Man City

Well i think the horse we should have backed was the DIC one, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. The americans were all being lauded when they arrived, what they havent done is stay well out of things and let Parry and the board get on with running the football club, in fairness the Glazers have done this.

[bingobus]

Magpie Seanie called it dead right when they came in. LFC were so desperate for a financial saviour to challenge the clout of united and Chelsea that they were welcomed with open arms, especially when they made all the right noises.

Now it seems they are much more circumspect about spending money, and even backing the manager. They are running scared from the weak dollar and it's affecting the club in a real way.

However, contrary to popular sentiment here, when things were going poorly in November, and when the row was at it's height, and when Rafa's agent was leaking stories with Real Madrid, I think the two yanks would have been mad *not* to talk to potential candidates to replace Rafa had he left. It's contingency planning and it seems eminently sensible to me. The stupid part, and the part that makes me think they are now seriously trying to undermine him and make him quit, is to release that fact to the press now, 2 months after it happened.

I think this is a clumsy attempt to engineer Rafa to walk away, thereby sparing them a settlement claim. What they've done now is undermined him, undermined the team and also, ironically, left themselves open to a constructive dismissal claim were Rafa to walk.

Whether we like it or not, soccer is no longer a game, it is now a multi-billion pound international business. And when business men get involved, profit becomes the name of the game, not winning. Winning is only important if it drives profits.

Agree with that, except the bit in bold. The speculation with Rafa going to Real Madrid was nothing more that what has been going on in the last few years. Once Real Madrid hit a bad run the papers link Rafa to Madrid the next day. There was nothing more concrete than ever before. If they were worried about Rafa leaving, they should have been talking to him and no one else. If Rafa said he was considering it to them directly, then yes by all means look elsewhere but as per Hicks quotes it was also do with not qualifying for the CL knockout stages that had them looking elsewhere.

Winning does drive profits, it generates new support and attracts money to a club. We have not been able to capitalise on the CL win because we have a poor marketing structure, old stadium with little room for valuable Prawn Snadwich Income and our match day revenue is even below Newcastles. By all accounts we could build a 70,000 seater stadium but would we fill it without success. I went over to a Liverpool game in Houlliers last season with 13 tickets and 5 bums to put in them. I got rid of another 4 and took 4 home, stubs attached. Any amount of tickets could have been got that day, only 5 years ago.

We need stability at the club i.e Manager. If we replaced him with would still have to spend money as the squad is weak in lots of areas plus their is no guarantee that they would challenge in the immediate few seasons. Sir Alex was under fierce pressure in the early years and a FA Cup win followed by a Cup Winners Cup game, prob saved his job (Unfortunately)

I would prefer new owners than a new a manager. They are Clowns.

[AZOffaly]

Rafa is pretty far from perfect, and makes some strange decisions, but on balance I too would prefer that the owners changed (as long as it was a change to someone who was content to put the money in, and trust the manager to do the business on the pitch) than Rafa.

I still think that they were wise in trying to cover their bases when there was imminent danger of Rafa leaving, whatever the reason. I'm sure that goes on all over the game. Where I fundamentally disagree with them is in making this public. Nothing wrong with insurance, but no need to tell the world.

[GalwayBayBoy]

Liverpool debt dispute forces Americans to consider sale
By Nick Harris and Jason Burt

Published: 16 January 2008

A dispute between Liverpool's American owners and the club's board over whether to laden the club with massive debts has cast fresh doubt over Tom Hicks and George Gillett's future at Anfield as new rumours circulated yesterday that they have agreed a deal to sell up.

One source, a major football financier, claimed last night that Hicks and Gillett had agreed a deal in principle to sell the club, which they co-own, for £350m, and that a process of due diligence was under way.

The potential buyers most consistently linked with Liverpool in recent months are Dubai International Capital, an investment vehicle ultimately controlled by Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktoum, one of the world's richest men. DIC came close to buying Liverpool a year ago and are certainly still circling, although the source suggested that a different investor – or partnership – might be behind the £350m bid. A DIC spokeswoman said: "We can only say 'no comment' at this stage."

Insiders at Liverpool denied a deal had been concluded with DIC, or that any due diligence was underway. Equally, both Hicks and the club maintain in private that Hicks, at least, is an unwilling seller, to anyone, at the moment.

However, a senior source at Liverpool told The Independent that "it is difficult to say categorically what is going on" and it is understood there is a growing schism between the board – which is trying to run the club on a day-to-day basis – and the owners.

The source of this rift is money, specifically a divergence of opinion about how Hicks and Gillett will restructure their finances. When they bought Liverpool last year, they paid for the club entirely with borrowed money, in the form of a £270m loan from the Royal Bank of Scotland. Of that, £174.1m was spent on equity, £44.8m on pre-existing debt, and the balance on working capital. The RBS loan is due to be repaid next month.

The Americans' representatives insist they are close to securing a new £350m loan, most of which will clear their first loan, with the rest spent on initial outlay on the proposed new stadium. The businessmen want to put the new debt directly on to Liverpool's books, guaranteed, crucially, against club assets, not their own.

Contrary to reports, the so-called "global credit crunch" has not been a significant factor in delaying a new loan. Rather, according to a well-placed source, "the very significant block" to the Americans' borrowing plans has been the board's opposition to heaping that debt on the club.

When Hicks and Gillett took over, they made much of the fact, referring to events at Manchester United two years beforehand, that theirs would not be a "Glazer-style" takeover, with the club potentially imperilled by debt set against its assets. Now, it seems, that is exactly what they were planning. Neither has spent any of their own cash yet. Unless they guarantee the new loans with their own money – which they may be unwilling or unable to provide – the impasse will continue.

In that sense, a buyer offering them £350m for their 100 per cent stake could well be attractive. It would allow them to repay their £270m RBS loan and walk away with an £80m profit between them after just a year's involvement. Yet as recently as last autumn, they were valuing the club at an extraordinary £1bn, a figure unrelated to financial reality.

Hicks and Gillett's relationship with the board is rapidly becoming as fractious as that with their manager, Rafa Benitez, upon whom they heaped huge embarrassment on Monday when Hicks revealed he had interviewed Jürgen Klinsmann in November as a stand-by candidate for Benitez's job.

"You might be able to make a case that they let Rafa know this had happened," said one exasperated Liverpool source. "But what on earth Hicks thought he would achieve by telling the world is beyond anyone."

Until the Americans have either resolved their financing problems or sold the club, plans for the new stadium, like Benitez's future, will remain up in the air.

[GalwayBayBoy]

Liverpool anger as Hicks reveals secret approach to Klinsmann


Andy Hunter
Wednesday January 16, 2008
The Guardian


Tom Hicks's admission that Jürgen Klinsmann was approached to succeed Rafael Benítez has spread internal division at Liverpool into the boardroom, with the other co-chairman, George Gillett, and the chief executive, Rick Parry, enraged by the public revelations which have undermined the Spanish manager and exposed the Americans' ownership to ridicule.
Hicks had intended to draw a line under the uncertainty about Benítez's future - at least until the end of the season - by saying that although he had spoken to Klinsmann last November he now backed Liverpool's current manager after the club qualified for the Champions League knockout stages. Instead the Texan has fuelled the infighting at Anfield as well as damaging Benítez's long-term prospects at the club.


Gillett is understood to be livid with his business partner at the embarrassment the Klinsmann revelations have caused and the fury it has provoked against their reign among the Liverpool support. It is not the meeting with the former Germany national team coach which has irked Gillett, however, because he himself was present at Hicks's Californian retreat when the Liverpool owners tried to secure their "insurance policy" against Benítez's rumoured departure. Klinsmann has since accepted an offer to coach Bayern Munich from July 1 and Gillett had intended the clandestine meeting to remain private.
The falling-out comes at a sensitive time for the Liverpool co-chairmen, given that they have six weeks to secure a £350m loan that would refinance their purchase of the club and enable work on a revised stadium project to commence. Failure to finalise a deal with the Royal Bank of Scotland and the US investment bank Wachovia, which rests on personal guarantees from the American pair, would heighten problems for Gillett and Hicks and increase the prospect of Dubai International Capital launching a fresh takeover bid. Sources close to the owners, however, are adamant the loan will be in place within the next few weeks.

Benítez could sue Hicks for constructive dismissal after this week's comments but he would have to resign from a job he cherishes before taking legal action and he is not considering that option at present. He would also risk losing a £6m pay-off should he walk away from Anfield.

Liverpool's former manager Kenny Dalglish yesterday insisted Benítez did not deserve to be treated so poorly for his public outburst against the Americans' transfer policy last November and said instability at the club had begun to affect the playing staff. "I think it's a disappointing phase when Liverpool, who have never washed the dirty linen in public, have contributed over the past two or three months to a lot of headlines which really you had never seen before," he said

[Gabriel_Hurl]

it's plainly obvious that Gillet is the more sensible of the 2

[The Real Laoislad]

Ian Callaghan on Jamie Carragher


  Liverpool's record appearance holder Ian Callaghan has hailed Jamie Carragher as one the greatest players in the club's history after the defender clocked up a landmark 500th appearance against Luton Town last night. 
The Reds legend, who played 857 matches for the club in a period spanning 18 years, knows just what it takes to enjoy such longevity with England's most decorated side and feels Carra's enthusiasm and love for the club have helped turn him into one of most valuable players Anfield has ever seen.
 
"It's quite a milestone and he certainly deserves all the praise he will get," Callaghan told Liverpoolfc.tv.
 
"It's no surprise to me because he's one of the most consistent players I've ever watched. Season after season he continues to produce the goods despite playing in up to 50 matches every year. He has such enthusiasm for both the club and the game in general and I think it does confirm his status as one of greatest players in Liverpool's history."
 
The landmark appearance means Carragher has now been officially inducted into the exclusive '500 club' - a unique group of Reds players of which there only 11 other members.
 
Cally believes the statistic proves just how important the 29-year-old's service has been for Liverpool over the years and insists he would be loathe to pick out one Carra moment in particular, as he feels it is his consistency over a long period that has been his strength.
 
"To be one of just 12 players in Liverpool's history to make 500 appearances says it all really," he said.
 
"I don't think I could pick out one particular memory that I think epitomises him as he always gives 100% every game. I keep talking about his enthusiasm and commitment, but that's what you get from him. He's always brilliant and prepared to do anything for the cause."
 
With just four goals in that time, Carra is unlikely to trouble Ian Rush's record of 346 goals for the club. And while Cally doesn't expect him to surpass his leading total of appearances for the Reds, he admits that if someone was to break it, he'd want it to be the no-nonsense number 23.
 
"I don't know if he'll ever beat my record," said Callaghan. "He's got 357 games to go, so it would take some doing. We'll have to wait and see but if anyone is going to do it, I'd love it to be him.
 
"It would be all the better if a local lad did it because I'm local too and it means more if someone from the area is reaching these types of landmarks.
 
"He's been the backbone of the team for countless years now and will be remembered in the future as a great player for Liverpool." 

[GalwayBayBoy]

Arabs refuse to play down talk of buying into Liverpool FC
Jan 17 2008

Liverpool co-owner Tom Hicks could be on the brink of being offered a way out of the troubled club.

A year ago this month Dubai International Capital were stunned by the last-minute failure of their bid to take control of the club but it is believed they are now set to try to buy the American's 50% stake in Anfield.

And DIC today made no attempt to play down speculation when a spokesman said: "We do not comment on such things, we have nothing to say on this."

But as the turmoil over the ownership of Liverpool by Hicks and fellow American George Gillett continues it has become clear DIC have never given up hope of owning the club, with lifelong fan and founder and chairman of DIC Sameer al-Ansari believed to be at the forefront of new moves.

It is the 44-year-old Loughborough University-educated financier who was the prime mover in last January's failed bid for the club, working on behalf of the real power behind DIC Sheikh Mohammed Al Maktoum.

A year ago then-chairman David Moores changed his mind at the last minute with DIC expecting to clinch their deal, and opted instead to sell to the Americans.

A board meeting at a London Docklands hotel hours before last January's match at West Ham signalled the change of heart.

But Al-Ansari has maintained close links with Liverpool, and in particular chief executive Rick Parry, and still attends matches regularly with his family.

And it is understood he has persuaded Sheikh Mohammed to become involved in a second bid.

Al-Ansari has also recently been linked with Sir Richard Branson's move to take over Northern Rock.

His Liverpool devotion was underlined recently when he said: "It took me two weeks to get over that (the failed bid), but it didn't dent my passion, I still go to every match when I am here."

The Liverpool Echo, in a report today, maintain an offer for Hicks' shares is being prepared and may even have been agreed in principle.

It was Gillett who brought Hicks on board last year when he did not have enough money to mount a solo bid for the club. Exactly where it would leave Gillett if DIC did buy into the club is open to doubt.

But the two Americans have discovered they have lost the backing of the club's supporters in recent weeks, compounded by the shocked outcry following Hicks' confirmation the pair had met Jurgen Klinsmann and offered him boss Rafael Benitez's job.

Hicks and Gillett have to reach an agreement with the Royal Bank of Scotland within six weeks to refinance the loan they took out to buy the club in the first place.

And there is major opposition from within the Liverpool board, believed to come from Moores and Parry, to any move that will see the club take on some of the debt from the loan.

Hicks could accept the bid and get out now with a profit, or continue with the refinancing plans, believed to be a matter of days from completion.

But with Liverpool fans preparing further demonstrations against the Americans at Monday's home match with Aston Villa, Hicks and Gillett could decide that their problems will only escalate if they continue to control the club from their bases in Dallas and Montreal.

However, the fact is that plans for the new stadium have still to be agreed a year after the takeover and funds to allow Benitez to compete with Manchester United and Chelsea have not been made available.

Hicks recently said he did not want to sell his shares but the reaction to his and Gillett's tenure this week from the fans could well see a change of heart.

[GalwayBayBoy]

Where would we be without the Liverpool fancy dress party?

Football star Steven Gerrard posed as a geriatric when he turned-up at Liverpool's colourful fancy dress bash - as a disabled pensioner riding a mobility scooter.

Donning a flat cap and puffing on a pipe, the Liverpool skipper stunned his teammates as he trundled into the party venue on an 5mph electric scooter.

Still buzzing from netting three goals in his team's 5-0 FA Cup thrashing of Luton, Gerrard joined the rest of the team for their belated Christmas party.



One passer-by was fooled by Stevie's brilliant disguise and offered to help the England midfielder from the four-wheel chair outside Sports Bar England in Liverpool city centre.

One reveller said: "This old looking guy drove up to the door in this electric scooter so I just thought he was a bit confused and offered him help.

"Next minute some of the players in the bar shouted it was Steven Gerrard in the chair."

"Afterwards they were calling him Steven Geri-hatric after his three goals. I was gobsmacked and totally fooled because it was a hell of a disguise."

The players put the Kop giants' off-field turmoil behind them for the night as they partied the night away in the plush haunt on Stanley Street.

Gerrard may have been the driving force of the fancy dress team, but it was fellow scouser Carra who had the X-factor.

The defender dazzled in a glittering silver suit and wig as he went as tele crooner Rhydian.

The reality tv theme was kept us by the Dane Daniel Agger, who turned up more looking like Big Bro livewire Pete Burns