Antrim Football Thread

[saffron sam2]

Good managers can add an extra edge but very few sides win big honours with no underage success beforehand.

Can I interject and propose Kerry

[ONeill]

You can if you want.

Kerry have won All-Ireland minor titles in every decade since the 1930s, more than any other county. They have won 40 Munster Championships. This decade may be the first.

They have won All-Ireland U21 titles in every decade bar the 80s since the 60s, again top of the honours list (including 4 in the 90s hence their dominance at senior level in the 00s).

It's a lazy myth that Kerry do not have underage success. Most counties would cry out for their ability to top up their silverware at every level each decade.

[nrico2006]

St Micks enniskillen have been having macrory success for a good while, and this has filtered through to contribute to fermanaghs senior success, but parallell fermanagh minors with antrim seniors. St micks enniskillen is the most prestigious underage team in fermanagh, to the detriment of the county minors, which have very limited success. yet the county minors has available the same players. The county minors always play second fiddle.
St Galls anyone?

Would Fermanagh Minors have the same players available to them as St Michaels?  Would it not be the case that over the past few years of success that the St Michaels teams have had a decent number of key players from Tyrone?  In comparison with St Galls, they would be in the same boat in the regard that not all their players are Antrim men. 

[lynchbhoy]

antrim have enough talent to certainly compete in Ulster and have an outside shot at a championship. Maybe not win it (yet) but certainly be ten times better than recent years.

I firmly believe the ten times better part. Winning an ulster in 2 years is crazy talk.

got to set the sights high though !

[lynchbhoy]

think you will see that I was out by one on how many the Derry minor side provided for the AI final win.
Burns - as much as I like the lad was peripheral at best to that team.

as for the kildare example - there were hardly any of the 87 minor side that graduated to the kildare senior team (a strange team as many of that side didnt even figure at senior level for their clubs - captain fintain buckley and midfielder james findleybeing prime examples)
so you are wrong regarding kildare's u18 side in 87 and also in what the later u21 side prvided o the side thereafter.

So, you were wrong about the Derry '93 side (of which half were All-Ireland minor winners). You were wrong about Kildare winning nothing in '87, when they plainly did. By the way, Kildare didn't win much more than that in '98 so not exactly a successful side.

O'Neill didn't have a better record than Strachen or the doctor. He was also managing a side that has one team as viable opposition.
Harte was in charge of winners at every level, including club.
O'Dwyer's Kildare had minor winners from two Leinster campaigns in the previous 10 years.
Laois under O'Dwyer followed the Leinster winning minors of 96, 97 and 98 including 2 All-Ireland titles.

Good managers can add an extra edge but very few sides win big honours with no underage success beforehand.

feck sake - splitting hairs ! (is that irony considering the two of us and our solar panels!)

cant really put in the opposition to MON's equation as its the same opposition every year- so you can remove that constant.
Previously in ten years Celtic had won one championship in eleven years prior. Strachan inherited an aging side but one that no longer had that losing mentality or fear. (though hes doing his best to re-instill it).

O'dwyers Kildare teams contained about as many as Derry did of minor winners (provincial wiers in Kildares case).
Derry had THREE minor winers on the team. Hardly the backbone, barely the foot !
Harte trained AI winning teams, so did Danny Ball....

Again like Tyrone Laois had loads of underage success but they would never have got it together until the right manager came along.
Odwyer for laois, Harte in tyrones case.

I didnt use Kerry as an example as they have an embarrasment of riches in terms of talent. Pat oshea won an all Ireland in his first year proving you dont have to be great to win stuff for Kerry (imo).
Effectively kerry are the opposite of my opinion.
and its all just an opinion oneill, shouldnt you be on playground duty or something?

[saffron sam2]

You can if you want.

Kerry have won All-Ireland minor titles in every decade since the 1930s, more than any other county. They have won 40 Munster Championships. This decade may be the first.

They have won All-Ireland U21 titles in every decade bar the 80s since the 60s, again top of the honours list (including 4 in the 90s hence their dominance at senior level in the 00s).

It's a lazy myth that Kerry do not have underage success. Most counties would cry out for their ability to top up their silverware at every level each decade.

Nowhere have I stated that Kerry do not have underage success.

My point is that Kerry's senior success far outweighs anything they have achieved at underage level. Kerry may indeed have more minor titles than any other county; a total of 11 in fact. The total that Tyrone and Derry have managed between them. Your logic would therefore dictate that Tyrone and Derry should have a Senior tally that roughly corresponds to Kerry's. Kerry have 35, Tyrone 3 and Derry 1.

[ONeill]

LB, there were 7 minor winners on the Derry team.

[Maximus Marillius]

O'neill you will find LB will never admit that you have proved your point. The main premise of the discussion was that you don't need successful underage teams either at minor or u21 to win senior intercounty provincial or All Ireland championships. You have more than adequately proved that all winning teams have a number of these succesful players in there ranks. LB should concede on this point, but I also agree with LB that a manager will make all the difference on how successful that group will be at senior. i.e if Harte was not with Tyrone it is hard to image that they would have won 3 seniors in 5 years. in other words the two go hand in hand to be a successful senior team

[ONeill]

Nowhere have I stated that Kerry do not have underage success.

My point is that Kerry's senior success far outweighs anything they have achieved at underage level. Kerry may indeed have more minor titles than any other county; a total of 11 in fact. The total that Tyrone and Derry have managed between them. Your logic would therefore dictate that Tyrone and Derry should have a Senior tally that roughly corresponds to Kerry's. Kerry have 35, Tyrone 3 and Derry 1.

Fair enough, but that's a strange point to make now. Initially you highlighted my very few sides win big honours with no underage success beforehand with the comment Can I interject and propose Kerry?

You can understand the average pauper's confusion here.
.

[Maximus Marillius]

Were talking about SS2...a crazy mixed up kid

[saffron sam2]

Nowhere have I stated that Kerry do not have underage success.

My point is that Kerry's senior success far outweighs anything they have achieved at underage level. Kerry may indeed have more minor titles than any other county; a total of 11 in fact. The total that Tyrone and Derry have managed between them. Your logic would therefore dictate that Tyrone and Derry should have a Senior tally that roughly corresponds to Kerry's. Kerry have 35, Tyrone 3 and Derry 1.

Fair enough, but that's a strange point to make now. Initially you highlighted my very few sides win big honours with no underage success beforehand with the comment Can I interject and propose Kerry?

You can understand the average pauper's confusion here.
.

Would I get away with saying that something happened and I accidently hit Post before I had completed the sentence which should have finished Katona as the most famous person whose surname is Katona?. The absence of a question mark in my original post would lend credence to this theory.

Were talking about SS2...a crazy mixed up kid

Yes, it would appear I have annoyed one or more of your neighbours from the opposite bank of the Bann to your good self. The old loose talk is 'bad form'.

[Gold]

St Micks enniskillen have been having macrory success for a good while, and this has filtered through to contribute to fermanaghs senior success, but parallell fermanagh minors with antrim seniors. St micks enniskillen is the most prestigious underage team in fermanagh, to the detriment of the county minors, which have very limited success. yet the county minors has available the same players. The county minors always play second fiddle.
St Galls anyone?

Would Fermanagh Minors have the same players available to them as St Michaels?  Would it not be the case that over the past few years of success that the St Michaels teams have had a decent number of key players from Tyrone?  In comparison with St Galls, they would be in the same boat in the regard that not all their players are Antrim men. 

All St Gall's players bar Ronnie Gallagher are from Belfast now. Preriously Lurgan's big Mark McCrory used to be immense at midfield in the Ulster Club, Omagh's Gary McGirr played half back in 2004/5 and Dregish's Ciaran McCrossan played and scored the goal that beat Bellaghy in 2005(although he would have mostly played half back and rarely scored.

Most of St Gall's boys are quite psychotic when it comes to winning and its correct that they do not have same desire when they play for their county. The boys are still competitive and would want to win but the team-ethos and team's bond(if there is any) would be nowhere near as strong for the county as it is when they play for St Galls.

This is rightly similar to St Micks where boys would do anything to get on the team and their one aim from 1st year is to make the McCrory team. Ive talked to more than a few Fermanagh girls who have said that when they were at school (5th/6th yr) they would all be dyin to go with a fella who was on the McCrory team. Compare this with Antrim, granted St Mary's are now in McCrory, but would any girl in Belfast know or give a f**k if a boy was playin McCrory. What i mean is there is a pride in Fermanagh and most other Ulster counties in their teams that is simply not the case in Antrim--people want to play for them and win with them as they are held in high esteem, this is not the case in Antrim where plays are often knocked repeatedly, much quicker than they ever would be praised(although granted there has been f**k all to praise on the whole). There is little or no value in the county jersey as shown when players who many believe are our top players choose not to play when they are fortunate enough to be injury free, youthful, fit, healthy and blessed with talent. I feel that many of these players feel embarrassed to play for the county due to its poor results and only want to be associated with the success of St Galls and remembered that way. It is up to these players to assist by putting their shoulders to the wheel and trying to change the county's fortunes.  

[ONeill]

I feel that many of these players feel embarrassed to play the county due to its poor results and only want to be associated with the success of St Galls and remembered that way. It is up to these players to assist by putting their shoulders to the wheel and trying to change the county's fortunes.  

That's an honest and bold statement.

[bannside]

Winning an Ulster in two years might be a bit fanciful, but not at all impossible. If I said three would you feel it is a bit more achievable?

In any event, sport is littered with teams that have been transformed within two years. In most cases the common denominator is a good management set up, and a good support network, and some real talent that has never properly been given the chance to obtain optimum level achievement.

Celtic pre Martin O Neill, or Jock Stein for that matter. Couldnt win an argument.

For Stein to take a group of 11 men from a thirty mile radius of Glasgow, to the heights of a European Cup, is proof that EVERYTHING is possible.

GAA history also littered with countless examples, Clare hurling, Waterford hurling, Laois and Kildare football, never mind our own St Galls.

Good organisation, committment and hard work will go a long way in any team environment.

Could Mickey Harte take Antrim to an Ulster title in two/three years? I`d say very possibly.

Its only as unachievable as you want to make it. The current squad will be our best in a long time, and will be peaking in two/three years. Open the eyes, please. Lets get them every chance they deserve.

[stibhan]

For Stein to take a group of 11 men from a thirty mile radius of Glasgow, to the heights of a European Cup, is proof that EVERYTHING is possible.

In fairness, Antrim don't have a Jinky or a Caeser to call upon, nor a Murdoch for that matter.