Antrim Football Thread

[ONeill]

I find that reply bewildering.

You're trying to say that playing MacRory Cup football (which some say was a pre-requistite to getting a univeristy place for many) against the best players and colleges in most counties in the province offers no advantage whatsoever to players between the ages of 16-18, especially those who dwell in counties without particulaly strong vocational GAA opportunities?

If so...well I'll leave it for others to judge.

[saffron sam2]

So, it's now about getting into university, rather than developing your footballing ability.

How can you say definitively that MacRory football is played "against the best players ... in most counties in the province"?

Was Tyrone's All-Ireland minor winning team made up exclusively of players from MacRory schools, given that Tyrone players attend nearly half of the current MacRory schools?

What sort of footballer could Peter Canavan really have been had he been exposed to MacRory football.

[ONeill]

Put it like this, Cavan and Antrim have poor records in the Ulster championship over the last 25 years (bar '97). In that time their MacRory Cup tradition is somewhat parallel to that. Fermanagh have made some kind of fist of things from 2003-2008, reaching an All-Ireland semi, quarter and an Ulster final as well as division 1 football. From 1999-2002 they played in every MacRory final, taking or sharing the title three times. Maybe the Fermanagh posters can identify the link in terms of players.  

Now, you can say the talent was there pre-MacRory but surely that competition helped.

[Puckoon]

I think players of the calibre of Tohill, Canavan, O'Neill and McGuigan would not have made any real benefits from playing McRory cup regarding the ultimate achievements in the careers.

For some of the less spectacularly gifted players on O'Neills list there, as well as a few who are missing, McRory cup was a great lift to getting them to the standard they are at today.

Allstar players like Davy Harte and Phillip Jordan are prime examples. Davy was never blessed with being a great underage player however just after his rannafast year he catapulted onto the Omagh CBS McRory team. I think McRory cup football was where that current all star really started to become the player he is today.

[ONeill]

So, it's now about getting into university, rather than developing your footballing ability.

How can you say definitively that MacRory football is played "against the best players ... in most counties in the province"?

Was Tyrone's All-Ireland minor winning team made up exclusively of players from MacRory schools, given that Tyrone players attend nearly half of the current MacRory schools?

What sort of footballer could Peter Canavan really have been had he been exposed to MacRory football.

I don't like to insult, but they are 4 sentences grasping at straws.

[saffron sam2]

So, it's now about getting into university, rather than developing your footballing ability.

How can you say definitively that MacRory football is played "against the best players ... in most counties in the province"?

Was Tyrone's All-Ireland minor winning team made up exclusively of players from MacRory schools, given that Tyrone players attend nearly half of the current MacRory schools?

What sort of footballer could Peter Canavan really have been had he been exposed to MacRory football.

I don't like to insult, but they are 4 sentences grasping at straws.

Yes, that input helps the debate. Are you drinking tonight?

Read back over this thread and see some of the tactics employed by the doyen of MacRory managers, Adrian McGuckin.  

"Bradley and Doyle, you beat them boys as soon as they get off the bus. The rest of you, lump the ball in high and hard and cause chaos."

Whilst it can be argued that MacRory football has helped some individual players, I still contend that third level football is more important in their development. To paraphrase, ahem, yourself, playing against the best players and colleges in all counties in the country.

But, yes, you continue with the insults.

[ExiledGael]

From a Fermanagh perspective back in the early 90's St Mick's had Raymie Gallagher, Shane King Archie Greene and people like that who went on to win a Ulster U21 title and play for Fermanagh at senior level.
In more recent times which I'd know better the St Mick's team produced countless players who went on to play at senior level for the county during probably our most successful ever period:
Ronan Gallagher, Colm Bradley, Niall Tinney, Ryan Keenan, Barry Owens, Marty McGrath, Shane McCabe, Mark O'Donnell, Raymie Johnston, Niall Keenan, Ryan McCluskey, Mark Murphy, Ciaran Boyle, Peter Sherry, Paul Ward, Colm Monaghan and god knows how many others.

[saffron sam2]

From a Fermanagh perspective back in the early 90's St Mick's had Raymie Gallagher, Shane King Archie Greene and people like that who went on to win a Ulster U21 title and play for Fermanagh at senior level.
In more recent times which I'd know better the St Mick's team produced countless players who went on to play at senior level for the county during probably our most successful ever period:
Ronan Gallagher, Colm Bradley, Niall Tinney, Ryan Keenan, Barry Owens, Marty McGrath, Shane McCabe, Mark O'Donnell, Raymie Johnston, Niall Keenan, Ryan McCluskey, Mark Murphy, Ciaran Boyle, Peter Sherry, Paul Ward, Colm Monaghan and god knows how many others.

Everything is relative.

Is that a higher percentage of players than would have played for St. Mick's and then Fermanagh when both were shite?

How can you say that Marty McGrath's MacRory career was more influential than his Sigerson? Did the antics of Corrigan and Henry tip McCabe and McCluskey towards soccer?

[ExiledGael]

Don't have the numbers to back it up but I would suggest it is a higher number than when Fermanagh were even worse. The school under Corrigan and Peter McGinnity in the 90s made huge strides at schools football and openly targeted top players from other schools for entry at sixth year like Owens and McGrath did. I know what you're saying about third level too but I think that work at MacRory level was crucially important for the future and success of Fermanagh football.
Dom's antic weren't all bad.
Would be interesting to speak to as many players as possible on this, but any time I have they speak very highly of the MacRory competition and the influence it had on them.

[ONeill]

 

Whilst it can be argued that MacRory football has helped some individual players,

That's a start. Tomorrow morning you'll be a convert.

[milltown row]

OK so when Antrim had teams playing McRory cup what did we win or achieve O'Neill?  I'll tell ya... Nothing we are rubbish at football but have delusions of grandeur when we talk up players like Crozer and the McCanns who played McRory cup, and it means nought

if the county could adopt a club mentality and train like a club then we might get somewhere. not too many friends on th county team. boys stood up and give off about the Galls players who stepped down after the Cavan game. i'll be surprised if they all go back. personal attacks on dedicated county players by people within the team would be hard to heal

[ONeill]

Hard to know.

The last time Antrim appeared in an Ulster Final was 1970. They won their last MacRorys in '70 and '71. Probably a coincidence given the age.

Sorry, forgot about '86...but sure in'87 they held Tyrone (All-Ireland finalists) to a draw!

[milltown row]

Hard to know.

The last time Antrim appeared in an Ulster Final was 1970. They won their last MacRorys in '70 and '71. Probably a coincidence given the age.

Sorry, forgot about '86...but sure in'87 they held Tyrone (All-Ireland finalists) to a draw!

i wouldn't say theyt were playing for antrim at that point.

and 15 years later they were more than likely in Jail christ thats it the bloody troubles caused it

look, getting to finals was law of averages, we were bound to get to some, who'd we beat to get there?

[tyrone86]

Another poor contribution from Mr ONeill.

Brian McGuigan
Sean Cavanagh
Ciaran Gourley
Cormac McAnallan
Pascal McConnell
Stephen O'Neill
Joe McMahon
Justin McMahon
Philip Jordan
Ronan Clarke
Oisin McConville
etc
etc

Of that list, I reckon McGuigan would have been every bit as good a footballer without the MacRory, you can't coach his talent. Likewise Stephen O'Neill was a very good footballer before he ever played MacRory - other posters might be able to shed more light on his second level education. With one exception, your list contains guys who played University football, which I contend is more important. You haven't disproved that theory.

The list of current inter-county footballers who have played MacRory is endless. Add to the the great players of the 90s - Blaney, Tohill, McCartan bla bla bla...those sides were littered with MacRory players .

Of course it isn't endless. There is a finite list of current inter-county players and from that list a subset has played MacRory. Your reference to the players of the 90s is also a red herring. Preparation was different then, teams relying more on natural ability - there was no such thing as professional coaches. McGuckin took Maghera's preparation to another level, other teams have followed to the extent that MacRory preparation is akin to a professional sport and as such more likely to discourage than encourage. Blaney and McCartan would have been greats regardless of whether or not they ever played MacRory  and I would suggest that Tohill's time in Australia was much more important in his development than the MacRory.

Anyone who thinks that playing MacRory Cup football will not help bring players on either

a) needs their head examined
b) Is under stress
c) wasn't picked

MacRory football is not about bringing players on. it is in the main about schools and their principals making a name for themselves and the coaches making a living outside school for themselves.

I will admit to a) and c) above though.

Very interesting debate. As regards to Stephen O'Neill, Stevie played for Tyrone vocationals in 97 whilst a pupil at St. Joseph's Plumbridge before he went to Omagh CBS, and he made his debut for the then Donagheady club in 1996 as a 15 year old. To put the thing into perspective, I believe Stevie was the only lad in the last 15 of the now defunct Plum school to play vocational schools football for Tyrone as a 5th year (possibly Peter O'Neill of Gortin also did the year previous as he was a County Minor in 96, but I don't believe so)

Whilst MacRory football isn't the be all and end all, I would contend that it has played a major role in the success certainly within Tyrone over the past decade, however, a strong vocational schools system has also been equally vital. There aren't too many guys that slip through the net without playing some form of representative football before the age of 18. Our St Michael's friends would also extol the virtues of the MacRory. However, the rigours of the competition certainly have destroyed players as well. There are quite a few guys from say Maghera and Colmans teams in the past that many have waxed lyrical about in Corn MacRuairi that have dropped completely from the radar or indeed went to University and have just been plain shite - you don't have to go back too many finals to see just one such player.

[ONeill]

You're not referring to Mark Lynch are you?