Poppy Watch

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

I don't think the Brits are always blowing about winning WWII. I think their take on WWII was that it was a gloriously defiant stand against a very powerful enemy. I think the Brits can probably justifiably say they won the war in Africa, but I find it's the Americans who think they won WWII. I think it's just lucky that Hitler attacked Russia when he did. If he hadn't opened up a second front in Europe then, Britain and the other Allies were in big trouble.

Indeed.

The U.K. and Ireland would have been facked if Germany had not invaded Russia.

The raison d'etre of Nazism was to create lebensraum in the east. If Germany had not been of the mind to invade the Soviet Union, they wouldn't invaded anyone else either.

Go East and its called Living Space, but go West its called Manifest Destiny.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

I don't think the Brits are always blowing about winning WWII. I think their take on WWII was that it was a gloriously defiant stand against a very powerful enemy. I think the Brits can probably justifiably say they won the war in Africa, but I find it's the Americans who think they won WWII. I think it's just lucky that Hitler attacked Russia when he did. If he hadn't opened up a second front in Europe then, Britain and the other Allies were in big trouble.

Indeed.

The U.K. and Ireland would have been facked if Germany had not invaded Russia.

Sure Ireland would have been well used to foreign tyranny, but Britain would have been in for a shock

[AZOffaly]

I don't think the Brits are always blowing about winning WWII. I think their take on WWII was that it was a gloriously defiant stand against a very powerful enemy. I think the Brits can probably justifiably say they won the war in Africa, but I find it's the Americans who think they won WWII. I think it's just lucky that Hitler attacked Russia when he did. If he hadn't opened up a second front in Europe then, Britain and the other Allies were in big trouble.

Indeed.

The U.K. and Ireland would have been facked if Germany had not invaded Russia.

The raison d'etre of Nazism was to create lebensraum in the east. If Germany had not been of the mind to invade the Soviet Union, they wouldn't invaded anyone else either.

Absolutely but it was the timing that fucked him. If hed continued to push home his advantage in the west it would have been curtains. To break his non aggression pact with Stalin when he did was his Waterloo.

[deiseach]

Absolutely but it was the timing that fucked him. If hed continued to push home his advantage in the west it would have been curtains. To break his non aggression pact with Stalin when he did was his Waterloo.

But why would he have wanted to 'push home his advantage' in the west? If Germany conquered Britain and/or Ireland they would still have had to face the Soviet Union. And they still would have lost. My favourite tale about the sheer impossibility of conquering the Soviet Union is the observation of General Halder who "had to admit that these figures [about the size of the Red Army] were awry. Instead of the 200 divisions that he believed the Russians had originally deployed, 360 divisions had been identified on the entire eastern front". So two months into the campaign they found out the opposition was nearly twice the size originally thought! Nate Silver would have given Germany a 0% chance of success.

[seafoid]

Absolutely but it was the timing that fucked him. If hed continued to push home his advantage in the west it would have been curtains. To break his non aggression pact with Stalin when he did was his Waterloo.

But why would he have wanted to 'push home his advantage' in the west? If Germany conquered Britain and/or Ireland they would still have had to face the Soviet Union. And they still would have lost. My favourite tale about the sheer impossibility of conquering the Soviet Union is the observation of General Halder who "had to admit that these figures [about the size of the Red Army] were awry. Instead of the 200 divisions that he believed the Russians had originally deployed, 360 divisions had been identified on the entire eastern front". So two months into the campaign they found out the opposition was nearly twice the size originally thought! Nate Silver would have given Germany a 0% chance of success.

Deiseach

This is an excellent read

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/jun/21/stalin-hitler-mass-murder-starvation/

Stalin and Hitler were both f$cking nuts. They both wanted to build an alternative to Anglo American capitalism and both needed Ukraine to feed the machine.

[AQMP]

Antony Beevor's "Stalingrad" is an excellent read.  Hitler needed to capture the Soviet oil supply in the Caucasus.

I'm reading his book on the fall of Berlin at the minute.

[Billys Boots]

Absolutely but it was the timing that fucked him. If hed continued to push home his advantage in the west it would have been curtains. To break his non aggression pact with Stalin when he did was his Waterloo.

But why would he have wanted to 'push home his advantage' in the west? If Germany conquered Britain and/or Ireland they would still have had to face the Soviet Union. And they still would have lost. My favourite tale about the sheer impossibility of conquering the Soviet Union is the observation of General Halder who "had to admit that these figures [about the size of the Red Army] were awry. Instead of the 200 divisions that he believed the Russians had originally deployed, 360 divisions had been identified on the entire eastern front". So two months into the campaign they found out the opposition was nearly twice the size originally thought! Nate Silver would have given Germany a 0% chance of success.

Deiseach

This is an excellent read

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/jun/21/stalin-hitler-mass-murder-starvation/

Stalin and Hitler were both f$cking nuts. They both wanted to build an alternative to Anglo American capitalism and both needed Ukraine to feed the machine.

Wait until Harry Redknapp gets his hands on the Ukraine!!

[AZOffaly]

Absolutely but it was the timing that fucked him. If hed continued to push home his advantage in the west it would have been curtains. To break his non aggression pact with Stalin when he did was his Waterloo.

But why would he have wanted to 'push home his advantage' in the west? If Germany conquered Britain and/or Ireland they would still have had to face the Soviet Union. And they still would have lost. My favourite tale about the sheer impossibility of conquering the Soviet Union is the observation of General Halder who "had to admit that these figures [about the size of the Red Army] were awry. Instead of the 200 divisions that he believed the Russians had originally deployed, 360 divisions had been identified on the entire eastern front". So two months into the campaign they found out the opposition was nearly twice the size originally thought! Nate Silver would have given Germany a 0% chance of success.

He needed to deal with the west before he could take on the Soviets, for the precise reasons that he failed in the end (i.e. 2 fronts). By leaving Britain in the war, he left the door and an entry point open for the US, and Hitler knew the US was more favourably disposed to the Allied cause than the Axis one. If Hitler had managed to take Britain out of the war, the US would not have been able to use British soil as a staging area etc, and Hitler would have been able to leave an occupation force on the Western front, rather than a fighting army.

By jumping too soon at the throat of Russia, he essentially spread himself too thin, and the war was over. It was just a matter of when. He compounded his error by making the exact same mistake Napolean did. Ironically so, as he was supposedly a great student of Napolean, and should have learned from him about the dangers of trying to 'take' Russia in the winter.

[deiseach]

He needed to deal with the west before he could take on the Soviets, for the precise reasons that he failed in the end (i.e. 2 fronts). By leaving Britain in the war, he left the door and an entry point open for the US, and Hitler knew the US was more favourably disposed to the Allied cause than the Axis one. If Hitler had managed to take Britain out of the war, the US would not have been able to use British soil as a staging area etc, and Hitler would have been able to leave an occupation force on the Western front, rather than a fighting army.

By jumping too soon at the throat of Russia, he essentially spread himself too thin, and the war was over. It was just a matter of when. He compounded his error by making the exact same mistake Napolean did. Ironically so, as he was supposedly a great student of Napolean, and should have learned from him about the dangers of trying to 'take' Russia in the winter

Do you really think that had Germany knocked Britain out they could have defeated the Soviet Union, and that waiting to attack would have made the Soviet Union more vulnerable?

[AZOffaly]

It was never going to work in my opinion, Russia was too big a chunk to chew, but I think the fact that he opened two fronts at the same time just doomed him. If he had managed to take Britain out of the War, and keep the US from entering it, then even a post war surrender with the Russians might have left a much different landscape in Western Europe. Hitler allowed his desire for lebensraum in the East, and his loathing of the Communist regime, to cloud his judgement. If he had listened to senior commanders he'd have at least played the long game and adhered to his non agression pact until he'd won the war in the west.

[AZOffaly]

He needed to deal with the west before he could take on the Soviets, for the precise reasons that he failed in the end (i.e. 2 fronts). By leaving Britain in the war, he left the door and an entry point open for the US, and Hitler knew the US was more favourably disposed to the Allied cause than the Axis one. If Hitler had managed to take Britain out of the war, the US would not have been able to use British soil as a staging area etc, and Hitler would have been able to leave an occupation force on the Western front, rather than a fighting army.

By jumping too soon at the throat of Russia, he essentially spread himself too thin, and the war was over. It was just a matter of when. He compounded his error by making the exact same mistake Napolean did. Ironically so, as he was supposedly a great student of Napolean, and should have learned from him about the dangers of trying to 'take' Russia in the winter

Do you really think that had Germany knocked Britain out they could have defeated the Soviet Union, and that waiting to attack would have made the Soviet Union more vulnerable?

Also, the point I would make is not that it would make the Soviets *more* vulnerable, rather it would have made the Germans less vulnerable themselves.

[deiseach]

It was never going to work in my opinion, Russia was too big a chunk to chew, but I think the fact that he opened two fronts at the same time just doomed him. If he had managed to take Britain out of the War, and keep the US from entering it, then even a post war surrender with the Russians might have left a much different landscape in Western Europe. Hitler allowed his desire for lebensraum in the East, and his loathing of the Communist regime, to cloud his judgement. If he had listened to senior commanders he'd have at least played the long game and adhered to his non agression pact until he'd won the war in the west.

Okay, I take the point. As you say, western Europe would look very different had the western Allies not been able to establish a beachhead in France. How different, I don't know, but we can agree that it would have been different! I think it's pointless though trying to say that things might have worked out differently for Germany had Hitler not let his prejudices cloud his judgement. Nothing he did can be viewed through the prism of good judgement

[AZOffaly]

I suppose you're right. A bit like Hicks & Gillette.

[deiseach]

I suppose you're right. A bit like Hicks & Gillette.

Ugh. Thanks for reminding me of that pair.

[red hander]

Wear it with pride...


A former British Army doctor failed to protect detainees and acted dishonestly after the death of Iraqi prisoner Baha Mousa, medical watchdogs have ruled.

Dr Derek Keilloh, appearing before the Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service (MPTS), denied any cover-up and claimed he only spotted dried blood around the nose of hotel receptionist Mr Mousa (26) after he was arrested and beaten by soldiers in Basra in 2003. Hooded with a sandbag for nearly 24 hours, he suffered 93 separate injuries including fractured ribs and a broken nose during the final 36 hours of his life in the custody of the 1st Battalion, Queen's Lancashire Regiment.

Dr Keilloh treated Mr Mousa on the night he died but repeatedly denied knowledge of such injuries.

The GP, who now works in North Yorkshire,  was found guilty of a series of failures after the death of Mr Mousa and his subsequent conduct.

The MPTS found he was aware of the injuries to the victim but failed to conduct an adequate examination of the body.

And knowing of the dead man's condition he then failed to assess other detainees or protect them from further mistreatment and tell senior officers what was going on.

The MPTS said he engaged in "misleading and dishonest" conduct when, at courts martials and a subsequent public inquiry, he maintained under oath he saw no injuries to Mr Mousa's body.

The tribunal will now retire to decide whether his behaviour amounts to misconduct, and if so, what the penalty should be.