Poppy Watch

[Evil Genius]

You have NO RIGHT TO FORCE YOUR SYMBOLS down our necks. The Poppy no matter how the sheeple of the island of Britain and its colonial offspring like to paint it, the Poppy is British Nationalism and the Poppy Appeal is simply Marshial Societal conditioning. I don't seem to see the Republic of Ireland's biggest foregin resident ethnic group the British being FORCED to wear Easter Lillys, to fly the Irish tricolour above their places of residence and work, to Sycophantic lick the arsehole of our Head of State.

Says the man who reckons it's "Time to take a more chill-pill approach to life"   

You know, for all that this is a serious topic, of all the posters on this thread, you're the one who makes me laugh out loud, as I imagine you coughing and spluttering your way through November, outraged, nay OUTRAGED, at the sight of the invidious paper flower in people's lapels!

But I do have one query. Heretofore, I have only pushed Poppies down peoples throats. How do I get them down their neck? Does it require a degree of cooperation on behalf of the poor victim, or is there some knack to getting it past the gullet?

Finally, seeing as you're a proud Fine Gael man, would it suit you better (and spare your blood pressure), if I were to sport a Laurel Leaf instead?


Taoiseach Enda Kenny lays a wreath at the war memorial in Enniskillen, Co Fermanagh, on Remembrance Day


The Tanaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Mr Eamon Gilmore TD, lays a wreath at the Cenotaph in Belfast, at the national day of remembrance.

[Rossfan]

The war memorial belongs to all, Catholics and Protestants alike blah blah blah. That's one of the arguments I've seen bandied about the most this weekend - Catholics and Irish nationalists died fighting in France, therefore people of a particular persuasion should "show respect". All well and good. Still don't see how any of that should be used as evidence a young Catholic, nationalist man from Derry should ever be criticised for choosing to not wear a poppy.

Of course there are very understandable reasons why "a young Catholic nationalist man from Derry" [sic] should not wish to wear a Poppy (though I fail to see why age, religion or gender should come into it).

But there are also reasons why a Derry Nationalist might not automatically be averse to the idea (whether he/she actually wears one or not). And one of these is that, contrary to popular understanding (myth even),  the tradition of Derry people serving in the British Armed Forces has never been confined solely to the Unionist tradition.

And since Derry's War Dead came from all parts and traditions of the city, all of its people should be equally permitted to mark, or not mark, Remembrance Sunday entirely as they wish.

Or do you not agree?

Amazing how someone can post a piece about Nationalists fron Derry and the British Army and not even mention Bloody Sunday    ( I suppose you buried it in the "many reasons" euphemism?)
More of the Unionist blinkered view of history coming to the fore ??
Until ye lads face up to ye're side's wrong doings there will be no "moving on" for ye.
Or do you not agree? 
Also no mention of the many Derry Nationalist ex British soldiers returning their medals in protest after Bloody Sunday.

[Applesisapples]

Why were no players wearing these poppy things in the 70's, 80's or 90's?
Don't recall too many people wearing them in England - mostly only done in the triumphalist 'wee sicks' counties!!
It's been some sensationalist pressurizing ( bullying) to press gang people int wearing these daft looking thing!!

I recall a few years ago in lansdowne road at a rugby international v the jockos , a couple of al-star rugby fans started booing softly during Amhrain Na bhfiann - but stopped after a few glares in their direction from surrounding fans !
They were not wearing any Irish colours ( as was their right and choice) but sporting ulster gear and 'supporting' Ireland.
No one was press ganging them into 'the wearing of the green'.

This poppy lark is revisionist poppycock !!

Again and again in this thread, there is the belief that Unionists only wear poppies and attend remembrance services to antagonize Nationalists / Republicans.  As someone from a Unionist background, it is my opinion that this is not the case.

Not all but some certainly do, a bit like some of those wearing shamrock on Paddy's Day. But if the IFA is serious about making soccer more welcoming to nationalists they would avoid having silences etc at Irish League games for politically divisive events.

[Evil Genius]

That does not explain why poppies were worn by the truckload in the north of Ireland when in England etc these were worn by tiny minority??

It doesn't explain it, because it's simply not true. Iirc, you make the same claim every year at this time, without ever providing anything to back it up. Then again, you cannot, since the only evidence either way is to be found in the amounts of money raised by the Poppy Appeal in the different regions of the UK, which does NOT reveal "truckloads" of cash from NI, but only a pittance from GB:
One million pounds raised in NI (2009)
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/ukandireland/poppy-appeal-in-northern-ireland-breaks-pound1m-barrier-14609389.html
UK Target of £42m for 2012:
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/support-us/

Rather, if only you could be hionest with yourself, the real reason for your false perception is likely that you notice every Poppy in NI, since it denotes one of "Themmuns" (in your tiny mind), whilst the sight of a poppy in GB goes unremarked by you.

Great that your services were sincere etc - but the need/requirement to have to sport a poppy is because...?
I'm sure the dead can be remembered without some childish badge!

"Childish"? That says rather more about you than it does about the Poppy.

[deiseach]

Until ye lads face up to ye're side's wrong doings there will be no "moving on" for ye.

Rules of thumb re Unionism and 'wrong doings':

1. You can accept that wrongs were committed in general, but never admit to any particular wrong. So the British Army did some bad things, but each specific example of a wrong will be blamed on the provocation of the Provos/PD's/Stickies/Jack Lynch/Colonel Gaddafi.
2. Everything that was objectionable about the Northern state was fixed in the early 1970's.

[Evil Genius]

What would posters estimate the sectarian breakdown was of those who attended Remembrance Day ceremonies in N Ireland?

I have no idea, though I know for a fact that when i was younger, many members of my local RBL in NI were Nationalists/Catholics. And I suspect that there may be others who may privately have been sympathetic towards Remembrance Day etc, but were discouraged from displaying it.
That said, this latter may be changing:
[Liam Logue of the SDLP] has been wearing a poppy, usually the smaller enamelled version. "I wore it last Sunday to Mass in Bangor where there were other people with poppies on"
Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/the-sdlp-man-who-wants-other-nationalists-to-wear-a-poppy-16235276.html#ixzz2C6CgpELK

In my view the Royal British Legion in N Ireland should be doing a lot more to reach out to Nationalists/Republicans, you know like if they "moved on" (after all, WW1 has been over for 94 years, long time ago wasn't it) and made an effort to get rid of symbols that may make Nationalists uncomfortable e.g. The word "Royal", the word "British", Union flags, British Army standards, emmm, the poppy...oh wait

I honestly can't figure out if you're being serious or not with this comment.

The crux of the issue of poppy wearing esp in NI is that in the post partition years and particularly after WW2 the poppy (wrongly in my view) became a badge of identity in N Ireland which marked you out as either one of "us" or one of "them" and anyone who thinks this isn't the case is frankly living in cloud cuckoo land.

Incorrect.

The crux of the matter is that with the Poppy, as with so many other aspects of life in NI (first and surnames, address, school, football club etc), people will try to (ahem) buttonhole you as being either one of "Ussuns", or one of "Themmuns".

Which is bad enough in itself, since it is not a surefire identifier.

But it becomes so much worse when people then ascribe political or sectarian motives to the wearer of the Poppy, even when he/she is a complete stranger, about whom they know precisely nothing.

And yes, I'm talking about the likes of MGHU and Lynchbhoy... 

[Evil Genius]

Again and again in this thread, there is the belief that Unionists only wear poppies and attend remembrance services to antagonize Nationalists / Republicans.  As someone from a Unionist background, it is my opinion that this is not the case.

Not all but some certainly do, a bit like some of those wearing shamrock on Paddy's Day.

Some may do, but you cannot make your assertion with certainty unless you've actually asked them what their motives are.

But if the IFA is serious about making soccer more welcoming to nationalists they would avoid having silences etc at Irish League games for politically divisive events.

First of all, the IFA issued no instruction to clubs as to what they may or may not do regarding this matter.
Second, Cliftonville FC chose voluntarily to mark the minutes silence.
They could have decided not to, had they wished.
If you think it was inappropriate, you should direct your criticism to that club.

[charlieTully]

Again and again in this thread, there is the belief that Unionists only wear poppies and attend remembrance services to antagonize Nationalists / Republicans.  As someone from a Unionist background, it is my opinion that this is not the case.

Not all but some certainly do, a bit like some of those wearing shamrock on Paddy's Day.

Some may do, but you cannot make your assertion with certainty unless you've actually asked them what their motives are.

But if the IFA is serious about making soccer more welcoming to nationalists they would avoid having silences etc at Irish League games for politically divisive events.

First of all, the IFA issued no instruction to clubs as to what they may or may not do regarding this matter.
Second, Cliftonville FC chose voluntarily to mark the minutes silence.
They could have decided not to, had they wished.
If you think it was inappropriate, you should direct your criticism to that club.

and if some fans choose to protest at that by singing a song about a young guy murdered at the hands of british hooligans in a uniform, where is the harm in that? they broke no laws.

[BennyCake]

Don't remember many members of the occupation forces here sent back to Blighty in a box getting the full Wootten Bassett treatment, either ... it's all part of a push by the British establishment to get the population behind the military so less of them will question their illegal presence in Iraq and their totally futile presence in Afghanistan

Spot on.

[AQMP]

What would posters estimate the sectarian breakdown was of those who attended Remembrance Day ceremonies in N Ireland?

I have no idea, though I know for a fact that when i was younger, many members of my local RBL in NI were Nationalists/Catholics. And I suspect that there may be others who may privately have been sympathetic towards Remembrance Day etc, but were discouraged from displaying it.
That said, this latter may be changing:
[Liam Logue of the SDLP] has been wearing a poppy, usually the smaller enamelled version. "I wore it last Sunday to Mass in Bangor where there were other people with poppies on"
Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/the-sdlp-man-who-wants-other-nationalists-to-wear-a-poppy-16235276.html#ixzz2C6CgpELK

In my view the Royal British Legion in N Ireland should be doing a lot more to reach out to Nationalists/Republicans, you know like if they "moved on" (after all, WW1 has been over for 94 years, long time ago wasn't it) and made an effort to get rid of symbols that may make Nationalists uncomfortable e.g. The word "Royal", the word "British", Union flags, British Army standards, emmm, the poppy...oh wait

I honestly can't figure out if you're being serious or not with this comment.

The crux of the issue of poppy wearing esp in NI is that in the post partition years and particularly after WW2 the poppy (wrongly in my view) became a badge of identity in N Ireland which marked you out as either one of "us" or one of "them" and anyone who thinks this isn't the case is frankly living in cloud cuckoo land.

Incorrect.

The crux of the matter is that with the Poppy, as with so many other aspects of life in NI (first and surnames, address, school, football club etc), people will try to (ahem) buttonhole you as being either one of "Ussuns", or one of "Themmuns".

Which is bad enough in itself, since it is not a surefire identifier.

But it becomes so much worse when people then ascribe political or sectarian motives to the wearer of the Poppy, even when he/she is a complete stranger, about whom they know precisely nothing.

And yes, I'm talking about the likes of MGHU and Lynchbhoy... 

though I know for a fact that when i was younger, many members of my local RBL in NI were Nationalists/Catholics

Ref your local RBL, could you estimate the percentage of members who were from a Catholic/Nationalist background, how you knew they were from this background, and in your day how many total members were there in your branch?

And I suspect that there may be others who may privately have been sympathetic towards Remembrance Day etc, but were discouraged from displaying it.

Discouraged by what/whom, and why do you suspect this is?

I honestly can't figure out if you're being serious or not with this comment.



I have no idea

If I were to estimate that of all those people who attended Remembrance Day ceremonies in N Ireland at the weekend, say, 95% came from a Protestant/Unionist background, how accurate do you think that would be?

[camanchero]

That does not explain why poppies were worn by the truckload in the north of Ireland when in England etc these were worn by tiny minority??

It doesn't explain it, because it's simply not true. Iirc, you make the same claim every year at this time, without ever providing anything to back it up. Then again, you cannot, since the only evidence either way is to be found in the amounts of money raised by the Poppy Appeal in the different regions of the UK, which does NOT reveal "truckloads" of cash from NI, but only a pittance from GB:
One million pounds raised in NI (2009)
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/ukandireland/poppy-appeal-in-northern-ireland-breaks-pound1m-barrier-14609389.html
UK Target of £42m for 2012:
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/support-us/

Rather, if only you could be hionest with yourself, the real reason for your false perception is likely that you notice every Poppy in NI, since it denotes one of "Themmuns" (in your tiny mind), whilst the sight of a poppy in GB goes unremarked by you.

Great that your services were sincere etc - but the need/requirement to have to sport a poppy is because...?
I'm sure the dead can be remembered without some childish badge!

"Childish"? That says rather more about you than it does about the Poppy.

living in england throughout the 70's and discussed this with several people who lived there in the 70's 80's and 90's has been enough proof for me.

the collections may have went on -but the wearing of the poppy was the preserve mostly of the north of Ireland.
Have also heard that this was the same in the 50's and 60's from talking to an older gentleman a short while ago.
I cannot see why you would want to dismiss the reality ?
it is of no huge consequence - other than to prove that the north had more badge wearing triumphalist people and modern times a big push has occurred to have the poppy thrown at every person in england , Scotland and Wales also to shame them into wearing one.
thats the reality, and the truth - seen with my own eyes.
How about you ask some of your English neighbours and they will put you right on this !

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

What would posters estimate the sectarian breakdown was of those who attended Remembrance Day ceremonies in N Ireland?

I have no idea, though I know for a fact that when i was younger, many members of my local RBL in NI were Nationalists/Catholics. And I suspect that there may be others who may privately have been sympathetic towards Remembrance Day etc, but were discouraged from displaying it.
That said, this latter may be changing:
[Liam Logue of the SDLP] has been wearing a poppy, usually the smaller enamelled version. "I wore it last Sunday to Mass in Bangor where there were other people with poppies on"
Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/the-sdlp-man-who-wants-other-nationalists-to-wear-a-poppy-16235276.html#ixzz2C6CgpELK

In my view the Royal British Legion in N Ireland should be doing a lot more to reach out to Nationalists/Republicans, you know like if they "moved on" (after all, WW1 has been over for 94 years, long time ago wasn't it) and made an effort to get rid of symbols that may make Nationalists uncomfortable e.g. The word "Royal", the word "British", Union flags, British Army standards, emmm, the poppy...oh wait

I honestly can't figure out if you're being serious or not with this comment.

The crux of the issue of poppy wearing esp in NI is that in the post partition years and particularly after WW2 the poppy (wrongly in my view) became a badge of identity in N Ireland which marked you out as either one of "us" or one of "them" and anyone who thinks this isn't the case is frankly living in cloud cuckoo land.

Incorrect.

The crux of the matter is that with the Poppy, as with so many other aspects of life in NI (first and surnames, address, school, football club etc), people will try to (ahem) buttonhole you as being either one of "Ussuns", or one of "Themmuns".

Which is bad enough in itself, since it is not a surefire identifier.

But it becomes so much worse when people then ascribe political or sectarian motives to the wearer of the Poppy, even when he/she is a complete stranger, about whom they know precisely nothing.

And yes, I'm talking about the likes of MGHU and Lynchbhoy... 

O don't worry, I don't attribute it all to a sectarian or rather a political breakdown as I not a believer in a Catholic-Protestant breakdown, more a Unionist-Nationalist, Royalist-Republican breatdown (sometimes, but rarely Unionist Republicans and Nationalist Royalists). In England and Wales I believe the Poppy is worn for the following reasons, 1. British Nationalism both genuine pride (good) and racism (bad), 2. Blind Patriotic fervor, (3) Family or friends in or were in British Forces, (4) Fashionable/Trendy (5) Overt and casual Sectarianism (almost all turn out to have Unionist/Loyalist parents/grandparents from the 6 counties among people I know over here from that group)

[Rois]

My poppy watch - I was in Krakow at the weekend and visited Auschwitz - there were poppies on the wooden crosses left at the memorial in the Birkenau camp.  I found it very touching and appropriate there.

[EC Unique]

Don't remember many members of the occupation forces here sent back to Blighty in a box getting the full Wootten Bassett treatment, either ... it's all part of a push by the British establishment to get the population behind the military so less of them will question their illegal presence in Iraq and their totally futile presence in Afghanistan

Spot on.

Nail on the head there. Propaganda at it's best.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

I see the Taoiseach and Irish Army laid laurel wreaths (sans Poppy on either Taoiseach, Irish Officer or Irish Wreath), can we expect to see the leaders if Northern Irish Unionism follow their Queen's example, perhaps they can lay Poppies on the memorials of 1916, 1918-1922, 1798 etc. to show that those poppies are also for those that fought foreign oppression and struck a blow for freedom (like their claims of the works of the British armed forces).

Let them lay them on the graves of Independence fighters in the USA (and the other gallant Allies  France and Spain), China, Kenya, South Africa, Cyprus, Israel, Iran, India, Afganistan, Sudan, Joan of Arc etc.