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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: APM on May 01, 2019, 10:27:14 AM

Title: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: APM on May 01, 2019, 10:27:14 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/martin-breheny-football-lost-in-time-warp-as-hurling-formula-thrives-38067260.html

Any merit in this?
Derry wans won't be happy!

Breheny is constantly chipping away at this and I find it a bit annoying. He has a strong point about the fairness of the Munster teams winning 2 games to make the Super 8s.  Even worse is the notion that a Munster losing finalist can play 3 games and lose one to make the Super 8s. 

His main problem is that the solution doesn't address the fact that the spread in quality among teams ranked 1 - 20 is much greater than the spread from 5 - 30.

Nonetheless, it might work, but I can't imagine getting anyone in Armagh too excited about round robin championship matches with Roscommon, Kildare and Laois (ugghh).



Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: rosnarun on May 01, 2019, 10:49:52 AM
the problem with all of these formats is every one of them is different . I must gave heard about 30 or 40 different ideas which seem like a no brainer to the proposer but as sure as eggs is eggs as soo as some one hears they will say 'yeah that's good  but What if?'
any new change has to be measurably better than the old system and not be changed for assay 5 years or else it will be tweaked evey year and no one will have a fecking clue what this years rules are 
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: Rossfan on May 01, 2019, 10:55:04 AM
Won't let me read it.
Can you summarise?
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 01, 2019, 11:00:42 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 01, 2019, 10:55:04 AM
Won't let me read it.
Can you summarise?

QuoteMy preferred format features the top 20 counties in the Allianz League the Sam Maguire tier in four groups of five, with the remaining 12 divided into four groups of three in Tier 2.

Balancing the top 20 from this year's league standings would create four groups as follows:

GROUP A: Mayo, Cavan, Donegal, Clare, Westmeath.

GROUP B: Kerry, Roscommon, Kildare, Armagh, Laois.

GROUP C: Tyrone, Galway, Fermanagh, Cork, Louth.

GROUP D: Dublin, Monaghan, Meath, Tipperary, Down.

Teams in the five groups have four games, with the top two in each qualifying for All-Ireland quarter-finals, which would revert to straight knock-out. Every team is guaranteed two home games, which does not happen now. Also, all eight would play the same number of games, unlike the lopsided provincial championships.

Tyrone, Derry, Meath, Offaly, Kildare, Wicklow, Louth, Wexford need to win four times to reach the quarter-finals via the provincial route this year, whereas Cork or Kerry can get there by winning two games. How ridiculously unfair is that?

Tier 2 (four groups of three) would be played 'home' and 'away', thereby guaranteeing every county four games. The winners of each group would qualify for the semi-finals.

GROUP A: Longford, Antrim, London

GROUP B: Offaly, Leitrim, Limerick

GROUP C: Carlow, Derry, Wexford

GROUP D: Sligo, Waterford. Wicklow

The outright winners would be promoted to the Sam Maguire Cup tier for the following season. An additional option would be to allow the two finalists into a preliminary quarter-final against two of the eight top teams in Tier 1. That currently applies in hurling where the Joe McDonagh finalists enter the All-Ireland race.

As a boost to the Tier 2 football semi-finals and finals, they would be played with their Sam Maguire Cup equivalents, replacing the minor games. That's how a real championship should look, instead of the current hotchpotch, which is riven with unfairness. It won't happen, of course, because provincial councils fear it would dismantle their power bases.
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: trailer on May 01, 2019, 11:31:23 AM
Think Derry would do well to get out of that group.

But in all seriousness, of course something should be done. The Championship structure is completely outdated. While provincial councils do hold quite a bit of power, a lot the weaker counties are against tiering and would prefer to be beaten by 20+ points. Tyrone V Derry will be a case in point.

Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: Kickham csc on May 01, 2019, 12:12:20 PM
The solution is easy, as I've stated before.

Run Leagues, then provincial championships, then a knockout AI. The AL draw is based on rankings achieved  from league and provincial championships. This way everyleague game is a championship game as it impacts rankings. Simple.

Each county guaranteed a min of 10 championship games a year. For a representative sport, that is plenty. Remember, the club season is the foundation, not the county. This should then free up Sundays for club action.

How many games do Ireland rugby and soccer players get? The play for their clubs and represent their country. Same approach needed in GAA. County scene power is getting ridiculous.

If the All Ireland was organized in this way, then the AI 2nd round in theory, (the top 16 teams) , will produce shocks and improve the championship, and this would cut out the backdoor and free up dates for club football.

Why is Breheny proposing a structure that severely impacts the club game. The elite 8 is not the answer, and expanding it is definitely not the answer.

Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: Rossfan on May 01, 2019, 12:23:39 PM
Breheny has to fill in space I suppose.
Why the Groups of 5 and 3 which will take 5 weekends and 6 respwctively to complete.
Any Group system should always be of 4 Teams.
Presumably he is dropping the Provincials altogether?
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: APM on May 01, 2019, 12:42:02 PM
Quote from: Kickham csc on May 01, 2019, 12:12:20 PM
The solution is easy, as I've stated before.

Run Leagues, then provincial championships, then a knockout AI. The AL draw is based on rankings achieved  from league and provincial championships. This way everyleague game is a championship game as it impacts rankings. Simple.

Each county guaranteed a min of 10 championship games a year. For a representative sport, that is plenty. Remember, the club season is the foundation, not the county. This should then free up Sundays for club action.

How many games do Ireland rugby and soccer players get? The play for their clubs and represent their country. Same approach needed in GAA. County scene power is getting ridiculous.

If the All Ireland was organized in this way, then the AI 2nd round in theory, (the top 16 teams) , will produce shocks and improve the championship, and this would cut out the backdoor and free up dates for club football.

Why is Breheny proposing a structure that severely impacts the club game. The elite 8 is not the answer, and expanding it is definitely not the answer.

That's a good idea. But where does the free Sundays come from?
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: Rossfan on May 01, 2019, 01:21:34 PM
7 NFL , 1 Provincial and 1 AI game = minimum of 9 same as at present.
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: johnnycool on May 02, 2019, 09:43:23 AM
Quote from: APM on May 01, 2019, 10:27:14 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/martin-breheny-football-lost-in-time-warp-as-hurling-formula-thrives-38067260.html

Any merit in this?
Derry wans won't be happy!

Breheny is constantly chipping away at this and I find it a bit annoying. He has a strong point about the fairness of the Munster teams winning 2 games to make the Super 8s.  Even worse is the notion that a Munster losing finalist can play 3 games and lose one to make the Super 8s. 

His main problem is that the solution doesn't address the fact that the spread in quality among teams ranked 1 - 20 is much greater than the spread from 5 - 30.

Nonetheless, it might work, but I can't imagine getting anyone in Armagh too excited about round robin championship matches with Roscommon, Kildare and Laois (ugghh).

Whilst bigging up the hurling championship he only mentions the Joe McDonagh Cup and Antrim once. Wonder does he think the rest of the hurling championships are flying?
Lazy analysis and TBH if I was a football fan that would be my biggest concern with a two tier championship as the lower tier will be cut adrift and relegated to a provincial ground on a Saturday afternoon like the lesser tiered hurling championships which in their inception were played as a fore runner to the Liam McCarthy AI semi-finals.
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: Lar Naparka on May 02, 2019, 10:17:31 AM
I agree with the suggestion that the provincial championships should be  dropped for a trial period of two years.. it would be a sea change for the Fior Gaels who are obsessed with tradition and refuse to accept that times are changing and the GAA needs to adapt in order to survive. After that, the only thing we can be certain about is that there is going to be a load of dissenters no matter what is proposed. Nothing will please everyone or even go close to it but I can't see anything being successful as long as the provincials remain in place.
A lot of people seem to think that the two tier system would be the way to go but the Tommy Murphy tournament never got off the ground  and any such system will just be a variation on that competition.
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: Rossfan on May 02, 2019, 11:38:21 AM
Looks like there will be a "2nd Tier" Proposal going before an Autumn Congress.
While I would be in favour of retaining the Provincial and reforming the AIs - however the lack of 4 Competitive Provincial Championships probably means their time is running out.
RTÉ certainly believe so anyway going by their live schedule.
They are reflecting Joe Public opinion on this.

So what then?
Ask 100 people you'll get 90 answers...
Probably run the NFL later and have 3 graded AIs based on League placings.
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: rosnarun on May 02, 2019, 03:32:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on May 02, 2019, 10:17:31 AM
I agree with the suggestion that the provincial championships should be  dropped for a trial period of two years.. it would be a sea change for the Fior Gaels who are obsessed with tradition and refuse to accept that times are changing and the GAA needs to adapt in order to survive. After that, the only thing we can be certain about is that there is going to be a load of dissenters no matter what is proposed. Nothing will please everyone or even go close to it but I can't see anything being successful as long as the provincials remain in place.
A lot of people seem to think that the two tier system would be the way to go but the Tommy Murphy tournament never got off the ground  and any such system will just be a variation on that competition.

I don't get why the provincial should be dropped . a provincial final win ia huge thing for nay county apart from maybe Dublin /Kerry , I know most mayo people would love nothing (other than an all Ireland of course) than to beat galway in a connact final this year and the same goes for most ulser counties and the 1st leinster team to beat Dublin in 1o years time or so  will be well pleased wiith their days work ,
winning a random group could never have the same impact and would not attract the same crowds or even interest from players
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: five points on May 02, 2019, 03:39:06 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on May 02, 2019, 03:32:45 PM
I don't get why the provincial should be dropped . a provincial final win ia huge thing for nay county apart from maybe Dublin /Kerry , I know most mayo people would love nothing (other than an all Ireland of course) than to beat galway in a connact final this year and the same goes for most ulser counties and the 1st leinster team to beat Dublin in 1o years time or so  will be well pleased wiith their days work ,
winning a random group could never have the same impact and would not attract the same crowds or even interest from players

Nail on head.
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: dec on May 02, 2019, 04:50:43 PM
"GROUP B: Kerry, Roscommon, Kildare, Armagh, Laois."

Many more Armagh people will travel to Newry for the Ulster championship game against Down than would travel to any of those 4 counties for a group game.
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: MayoBuck on May 02, 2019, 07:32:57 PM
I don't think the provincials should be dropped but the link between them and the all Ireland championship(s) needs to be broken. It's not right that Kerry, for example, can sleep walk into the last 8 year after year while Mayo could draw Galway in a Connacht quarter final and the loser will have to go through 4 rounds of qualifiers to reach the same stage.

Provincial championships should finish in mid June and then there should be a draw for an A and B all Ireland championship. I think two 16 team straight knockout competitions would be very exciting. There's no need to have a group stage.
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 03, 2019, 12:30:31 PM
Quote from: APM on May 01, 2019, 10:27:14 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/martin-breheny-football-lost-in-time-warp-as-hurling-formula-thrives-38067260.html
Couldn't read without logging in

It'll be a load of shite as usual.

Straight knockout with all teams having to play home/away on alternate (or as near as) years means the chances of one of the big teams slipping up are increased - which opens the competition up to other winners.

A bad team has a better chance of beating a good team on one day than beating the same team over a mini-league - ergo it acts as a leveller. All the blowing from journos will never change that rather inescapable reality.

But of course, straight knockout means less games which means less €€€.
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: Rossfan on May 03, 2019, 01:15:37 PM
A Championship is about finding the best team not trying to get bad teams to beat good teams.
No matter what system you use a bad team won't win the AI and nobody wants the kind of 20 point margins that used to occur in All Ireland semis.
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 03, 2019, 01:50:01 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2019, 01:15:37 PM
A Championship is about finding the best team not trying to get bad teams to beat good teams.
No matter what system you use a bad team won't win the AI and nobody wants the kind of 20 point margins that used to occur in All Ireland semis.

Like Dublin beating Tyrone by 2-17 to 0-11 a couple of years back?
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: Rossfan on May 03, 2019, 02:06:24 PM
Long way from 12 to 20😉
Title: Re: Breheny's Big Ideas
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 03, 2019, 03:36:48 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2019, 02:06:24 PM
Long way from 12 to 20

Might as well be 120 as 12.

The match was a non-contest - which is what you are wanting to avoid.

edit: Looking back (had time when computer was running stuff - even though I was telling myself to wise up after thinking about doing it  :-[ ;D)

Between 2001 and 2018, there were 5 semi-finals separated by double figures (largest = 15 pts - twice).
Between 1983 and 2000, there were 4 semi-finals separated by double figures (largest = 20 pts).

Between 2001 and 2018, there were 5 semi-final draws.
Between 1983 and 2000, there were also 5 semi-final draws.

Between 2001 and 2018, the average winning margin was 4.7 points.
Between 1983 and 2000, the average winning margin was 5.1 points.


If we used 6 points as a demarkation point for a one-sided affair; then in both time gaps, there were the exact same number of matches that had a 6 point or greater margin; 14.


The stats really don't back up the idea that straight knockout would lead to more mismatches at the AI semi-final stage.


[numbers based on first fixture; excludes replays. If you want to include them - be my guest!]