Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race

[Milltown Row2]

Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

Just to clear this one up.

Here is a still of the Canavan goal against Kerry in 05. He is actually being picked up by Seamus Moynihan (3x all star defender) and as you can see Moynihan has him goalside and within reach. This is just after Jordan has kicked the ball in. Canavan is then off like a rocket, burns Moynihan, he knows where he needs to be, takes the ball off Mulligan and places a perfect finish into the bottom corner off his weaker foot.

O'Callaghan and Rock were both free to palm/punch their goals in. Mayo got caught out on the overload or didn't track their men.

So you're talking nonsense I'm afraid.

He's ten yards off him, so not actually being picked up by anyone

[Angelo]

Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

Just to clear this one up.

Here is a still of the Canavan goal against Kerry in 05. He is actually being picked up by Seamus Moynihan (3x all star defender) and as you can see Moynihan has him goalside and within reach. This is just after Jordan has kicked the ball in. Canavan is then off like a rocket, burns Moynihan, he knows where he needs to be, takes the ball off Mulligan and places a perfect finish into the bottom corner off his weaker foot.

O'Callaghan and Rock were both free to palm/punch their goals in. Mayo got caught out on the overload or didn't track their men.

So you're talking nonsense I'm afraid.

He's ten yards off him, so not actually being picked up by anyone

He's goalside. Canavan should not be getting into a goalscoring position from there but does.

As for 10 yards, are you a midget? That's the smallest 10 yards I've ever seen.

[Milltown Row2]

Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

Just to clear this one up.

Here is a still of the Canavan goal against Kerry in 05. He is actually being picked up by Seamus Moynihan (3x all star defender) and as you can see Moynihan has him goalside and within reach. This is just after Jordan has kicked the ball in. Canavan is then off like a rocket, burns Moynihan, he knows where he needs to be, takes the ball off Mulligan and places a perfect finish into the bottom corner off his weaker foot.

O'Callaghan and Rock were both free to palm/punch their goals in. Mayo got caught out on the overload or didn't track their men.

So you're talking nonsense I'm afraid.

He's ten yards off him, so not actually being picked up by anyone

He's goalside. Canavan should not be getting into a goalscoring position from there but does.

As for 10 yards, are you a midget? That's the smallest 10 yards I've ever seen.

He's wrong footed also, all over the shop, not touch tight, the defending is so poor it reminds me of Tyrone club football

[Angelo]

Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

Just to clear this one up.

Here is a still of the Canavan goal against Kerry in 05. He is actually being picked up by Seamus Moynihan (3x all star defender) and as you can see Moynihan has him goalside and within reach. This is just after Jordan has kicked the ball in. Canavan is then off like a rocket, burns Moynihan, he knows where he needs to be, takes the ball off Mulligan and places a perfect finish into the bottom corner off his weaker foot.

O'Callaghan and Rock were both free to palm/punch their goals in. Mayo got caught out on the overload or didn't track their men.

So you're talking nonsense I'm afraid.

He's ten yards off him, so not actually being picked up by anyone

He's goalside. Canavan should not be getting into a goalscoring position from there but does.

As for 10 yards, are you a midget? That's the smallest 10 yards I've ever seen.

He's wrong footed also, all over the shop, not touch tight, the defending is so poor it reminds me of Tyrone club football

So you're saying 3X all star and former Footballer of The Year Seamus Moynihan is a poor defender?

Moynihan has a good position there, the ball has been played in long, he is a good position to counter Canavan there and to intercept a breaking ball but Canavan loses him and scores a vital goal with a perfect finish.

[Milltown Row2]

Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

Just to clear this one up.

Here is a still of the Canavan goal against Kerry in 05. He is actually being picked up by Seamus Moynihan (3x all star defender) and as you can see Moynihan has him goalside and within reach. This is just after Jordan has kicked the ball in. Canavan is then off like a rocket, burns Moynihan, he knows where he needs to be, takes the ball off Mulligan and places a perfect finish into the bottom corner off his weaker foot.

O'Callaghan and Rock were both free to palm/punch their goals in. Mayo got caught out on the overload or didn't track their men.

So you're talking nonsense I'm afraid.

He's ten yards off him, so not actually being picked up by anyone

He's goalside. Canavan should not be getting into a goalscoring position from there but does.

As for 10 yards, are you a midget? That's the smallest 10 yards I've ever seen.

He's wrong footed also, all over the shop, not touch tight, the defending is so poor it reminds me of Tyrone club football

So you're saying 3X all star and former Footballer of The Year Seamus Moynihan is a poor defender?

Moynihan has a good position there, the ball has been played in long, he is a good position to counter Canavan there and to intercept a breaking ball but Canavan loses him and scores a vital goal with a perfect finish.

On this occasion he's all over the shop, watched it there again, I don't know what way he was trying to defend that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN_mP7zBRIM

[Angelo]

Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

Just to clear this one up.

Here is a still of the Canavan goal against Kerry in 05. He is actually being picked up by Seamus Moynihan (3x all star defender) and as you can see Moynihan has him goalside and within reach. This is just after Jordan has kicked the ball in. Canavan is then off like a rocket, burns Moynihan, he knows where he needs to be, takes the ball off Mulligan and places a perfect finish into the bottom corner off his weaker foot.

O'Callaghan and Rock were both free to palm/punch their goals in. Mayo got caught out on the overload or didn't track their men.

So you're talking nonsense I'm afraid.

He's ten yards off him, so not actually being picked up by anyone

He's goalside. Canavan should not be getting into a goalscoring position from there but does.

As for 10 yards, are you a midget? That's the smallest 10 yards I've ever seen.

He's wrong footed also, all over the shop, not touch tight, the defending is so poor it reminds me of Tyrone club football

So you're saying 3X all star and former Footballer of The Year Seamus Moynihan is a poor defender?

Moynihan has a good position there, the ball has been played in long, he is a good position to counter Canavan there and to intercept a breaking ball but Canavan loses him and scores a vital goal with a perfect finish.

On this occasion he's all over the shop, watched it there again, I don't know what way he was trying to defend that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN_mP7zBRIM

Presumably he's taken the option to cover Galvin who is one on one at the edge of the square with Mulligan.

Canavan's greatest asset was his speed of thought and that is emblematic of it, he sees that happening before anyone else can, the arc on his run is superb, the finish perfect. He's burst his gut to get on that ball once it has kicked in.

[lenny]

I think the point is that O Connor is not a 'clutch' player. A bit of a flat track bully who will run up big scores in loads of games but when the shite really hits the fan can go missing. Frees do need scored and he does that consistently well but so did my old mate Oisin McConville for instance. Oisin on the other hand I would have put my mortgage on scoring a winner out of nothing in the dying embers of a game with 3 men hanging off him, Canavan the same, Kilkenny the same, I'm not so sure O Connor would. I think he is an excellent player but just a step below the top.

I have a recollection of O'Connor scoring an equalising point in exactly that manner late on v the Dubs. Demanded the ball. Lads hanging off him. Banged it over from distance.

His influenced definitely waned in the second half on Saturday, after he had a really good first half. Hard to know exactly from TV if his runs changed or Dublin's marking changed, but I would imagine the biggest reason was that Mayo dominated midfield in the first half and Dublin the second.

The 2 marks and that catch and hoit from the acute angle in the 1st half from a good supply of ball going in. COC was brilliant in the first half. The supply in the 2nd half pretty much dried up as you say, Fenton came to the fore and Dublin had the middle sector seen up. Christ but Fenton is frustratingly brilliant. You just knew after the 1st half he'd be out all guns blazing in the 2nd.
So we're all now in agreement, O'Connor is 'excellent' and Peter 'The Great' was in fact Peter 'The Average'

Totally agree. What makes the achievements of COC even better is that he is playing in a team with very average forwards. All the pressure and attention is on him. In 1995 canavan had a similar situation after Adrian Cush got injured. He was the go to forward and he completely failed to deliver with only one solitary point from play and a lack of composure when Tyrone got a late chance. By the time 03 and 05 came along he had great forwards along with him like Stephen O'Neill, McGuigan, mulligans and Dooher. That meant he got lots of space and he still couldn't score from play in 03. Kerry gave him way too much latitude in 05 putting their best markers on the other forwards and he still only got 2 scores. The more angelo continues with this argument the more I agree with him that canavan was an average enough forward.

[Angelo]

I think the point is that O Connor is not a 'clutch' player. A bit of a flat track bully who will run up big scores in loads of games but when the shite really hits the fan can go missing. Frees do need scored and he does that consistently well but so did my old mate Oisin McConville for instance. Oisin on the other hand I would have put my mortgage on scoring a winner out of nothing in the dying embers of a game with 3 men hanging off him, Canavan the same, Kilkenny the same, I'm not so sure O Connor would. I think he is an excellent player but just a step below the top.

I have a recollection of O'Connor scoring an equalising point in exactly that manner late on v the Dubs. Demanded the ball. Lads hanging off him. Banged it over from distance.

His influenced definitely waned in the second half on Saturday, after he had a really good first half. Hard to know exactly from TV if his runs changed or Dublin's marking changed, but I would imagine the biggest reason was that Mayo dominated midfield in the first half and Dublin the second.

The 2 marks and that catch and hoit from the acute angle in the 1st half from a good supply of ball going in. COC was brilliant in the first half. The supply in the 2nd half pretty much dried up as you say, Fenton came to the fore and Dublin had the middle sector seen up. Christ but Fenton is frustratingly brilliant. You just knew after the 1st half he'd be out all guns blazing in the 2nd.
So we're all now in agreement, O'Connor is 'excellent' and Peter 'The Great' was in fact Peter 'The Average'

Totally agree. What makes the achievements of COC even better is that he is playing in a team with very average forwards. All the pressure and attention is on him. In 1995 canavan had a similar situation after Adrian Cush got injured. He was the go to forward and he completely failed to deliver with only one solitary point from play and a lack of composure when Tyrone got a late chance. By the time 03 and 05 came along he had great forwards along with him like Stephen O'Neill, McGuigan, mulligans and Dooher. That meant he got lots of space and he still couldn't score from play in 03. Kerry gave him way too much latitude in 05 putting their best markers on the other forwards and he still only got 2 scores. The more angelo continues with this argument the more I agree with him that canavan was an average enough forward.

Yet wing backs and forwards who play half the game time on the same team outscore him from open play in All Ireland finals.

Someone would want to tell Andy Moran he was an average forward too.

Interesting.

[SouthDublinBro]

Can anyone provide any film reel of evidence of COC actually beating a man in ANY game? Actually skinning someone, running past him and scoring a point?

[MayoBuck]

This thread is getting more ridiculous by the day. There are loads of examples where Cillian skins his man and scores. Look at the 2nd goal vs Tipperary,  some of his points vs Kerry in 17, Tyrone in 16, the goal vs Kerry in 2011 and many many other occasions.

5-40 he scored in championship 2020. An average of 11 points per game. He was also the top scorer from play before people pipe up about frees.

[Angelo]

This thread is getting more ridiculous by the day. There are loads of examples where Cillian skins his man and scores. Look at the 2nd goal vs Tipperary,  some of his points vs Kerry in 17, Tyrone in 16, the goal vs Kerry in 2011 and many many other occasions.

5-40 he scored in championship 2020. An average of 11 points per game. He was also the top scorer from play before people pipe up about frees.

But the point is that he's a finisher. Elite forwards are more than finishers, they can be a one man band if they need to be. O'Connor is a heavy scorer when Mayo are blitzreiging teams and players are queuing up to score.

I've posted some facts here.

The fact that Andy Moran and Lee Keegan had outscored COC in All Ireland finals from play and in Championship games against Dublin. The fact that O'Connor has won just 0-02 of frees he has scored from 1-54 now. Do they replicate the sort of return from elite forwards you would expect, or not?

A blitzreig team performance against Tipp is a grand way of padding your stats. If you swapped Conor McManus into the Mayo team and Cillian O'Connor into the Monaghan team - how do you think both respective counties would have got on? I think Mayo quite possibly could have a couple of All Irelands and Monaghan would not have an Ulster Championship to their name, never mind two.

[Milltown Row2]

Points of views, your 'facts' or stats suit your view. That's all. Roger is a better tennis player than Nadal. End of (in my view)

[larryin89]

Points of views, your 'facts' or stats suit your view. That's all. Roger is a better tennis player than Nadal. End of (in my view)

Yeah but could roger do it in the Ulster championships

[Milltown Row2]

Points of views, your 'facts' or stats suit your view. That's all. Roger is a better tennis player than Nadal. End of (in my view)

Yeah but could roger do it in the Ulster championships

Better accuracy than Nadal so, yeah

[Angelo]

Points of views, your 'facts' or stats suit your view. That's all. Roger is a better tennis player than Nadal. End of (in my view)

Stats give us an insight of something.

Nadal dominates Federer.

COC struggles for scores from play when Mayo don't dominate teams and it's the likes of Keegan and Boyle who make them and it's the other players who win the tapover frees. If O'Connor was an elite level forward, he would be able to do a lot more himself, the chips were down for Mayo in the second half and O'Connor disappeared. I'm not suggesting O'Connor is a bottler, I'm stating that his limitations don't allow him to create and get scores an elite level forward would in those circumstances. You can try and argue that but there's not much basis to arguing it. The stats and precedent don't support it.

You can choose to ignore them if you want but I think it shows an obstinance when it comes to looking at the bigger picture.