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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: Angus on September 24, 2015, 08:47:43 PM

Title: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angus on September 24, 2015, 08:47:43 PM
Mayo's O'Connor wins with an overall tally of 3-34 (43) whilst Fermanagh's Sean Quigley stands as the runner-up with 2-36 (42).


http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/1/2209151533-cillian-oconnor-wins-golden-boot-race/
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Beffs on September 24, 2015, 08:55:17 PM
Ridiculous award, considering Brogan got all of his from play.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: screenexile on September 24, 2015, 08:58:16 PM
Quote from: Beffs on September 24, 2015, 08:55:17 PM
Ridiculous award, considering Brogan got all of his from play.

Against ridiculously poor opposition...
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Beffs on September 24, 2015, 08:58:56 PM
Yeah....Mayo !  ;D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Mayo4Sam14 on September 24, 2015, 09:39:51 PM
Quote from: Beffs on September 24, 2015, 08:55:17 PM
Ridiculous award, considering Brogan got all of his from play.

He scored a free in the final :b
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: From the Bunker on September 24, 2015, 09:40:39 PM
Quote from: Beffs on September 24, 2015, 08:55:17 PM
Ridiculous award, considering Brogan got all of his from play.

How much did he score in Away games?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 24, 2015, 09:56:59 PM
These types of award will only carry any real significance when each team has to travel and traverse a similar path to whichever stage of whatever competition: cricket scores against any nondescript opposition, from whichever province, should not be the protected domain of a (traditional) provincially-protected few.

It really is a ridiculous set-up, almost as laughable as the disciplinary performance of Croke Park itself this year; we invite ridicule on a wholesale scale.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Syferus on September 24, 2015, 11:01:43 PM
Christ lads. It's a Golden Boot award. It's straight forward a thing as there is in this muddled sport. Stop arguing about fairness. Silly season is in full swing.

Would have loved to have seen Quigley finish as top scorer.
Title: the golden dunder
Post by: rrhf on September 24, 2015, 11:04:48 PM
He really did win it if he count his shove on Cluxton. He wins The golden Dunder
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: ONeill on September 24, 2015, 11:46:47 PM
Have they always called it the golden boot?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: moysider on September 24, 2015, 11:47:27 PM

There is either an award for top scorer or not.

The criterion is simple. Who scores most in championship wins the award. That is the only consideration.  All scores are weighted equally. No use bleating about it, that is the way it is. The award does not take into account scores from play being more worthy or the quality of the opposition. Good luck to anybody trying to work on a realistic system for that. Like were scores v Kildare in Cork match more worthy than scores in Kildare v Kerry when Kildare imploded. Like how does one even go about appraising the quality of a team in the first place and then reviewing that from game to game?   

The award is what it is and doesn t mean that COC is 'better' than Quigley, Brogan etc. He happened to score more. So what?

Fair play to Cillian. Some of those frees were class and he stuck 2 fine goals from play I remember and a cool pressure penalty as well.

Look, I doubt any of us are doing backflips over this. The award is what it is though.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Captain Obvious on September 25, 2015, 12:38:36 AM
Quote

*An error in Cillian O'Connor's tally failed to add an extra point during an earlier game in the 2015 Connacht Championship meaning that the Mayo forward has been added an additional point leaving him on a final tally of 3-34 (43).

Can anyone confirm this and who was given the point instead at the time?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Shrewdness on September 25, 2015, 11:12:29 AM
Cillian O'Connor deserves the award for the simple reason that he scored more than anyone else. Quigley scored his total in 6 games, whereas O'Connor only had 5 games...However, that doesn't take away from the fact that Quigley had a great year.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: nrico2006 on September 25, 2015, 11:14:02 AM
Quote from: Shrewdness on September 25, 2015, 11:12:29 AM
Cillian O'Connor deserves the award for the simple reason that he scored more than anyone else. Quigley scored his total in 6 games, whereas O'Connor only had 5 games...However, that doesn't take away from the fact that Quigley had a great year.

I disagree.  This award simply rewards the person who ends up scoring the most frees. 
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Rossfan on September 25, 2015, 11:16:33 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 25, 2015, 11:14:02 AM
Quote from: Shrewdness on September 25, 2015, 11:12:29 AM
Cillian O'Connor deserves the award for the simple reason that he scored more than anyone else. Quigley scored his total in 6 games, whereas O'Connor only had 5 games...However, that doesn't take away from the fact that Quigley had a great year.

I disagree.  This award simply rewards the person who ends up scoring the most frees.
So.... They all count in a game.
How many teams lose games bemoaning the lack of a decent 9 out of 10 freetaker?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: sid waddell on September 25, 2015, 11:32:55 AM
Quote from: ONeill on September 24, 2015, 11:46:47 PM
Have they always called it the golden boot?
If it's called the Golden Boot, any scores which were not scored with the boot should be taken away. That would rule out O'Connor's shinner goal against Dublin, thus giving the award to Quigley.

Perhaps a separate "Golden Shin" award could be set up for scores obtained by use of the shin, and a separate "Golden Fist" award set up for those horrible handpassed points.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: imtommygunn on September 25, 2015, 11:40:07 AM
Would Quigley not lose his goal for barging Cluxton over the line too if that were the case ;-)
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rodney trotter on September 25, 2015, 11:53:24 AM
Quigley might have won it comfortably if he was more with clinical the frees. He missed a few bad ones against Monaghan, Westmeath.  He was suppose to have been poor in the first half against Roscommon too.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: nrico2006 on September 25, 2015, 11:54:15 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 25, 2015, 11:16:33 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 25, 2015, 11:14:02 AM
Quote from: Shrewdness on September 25, 2015, 11:12:29 AM
Cillian O'Connor deserves the award for the simple reason that he scored more than anyone else. Quigley scored his total in 6 games, whereas O'Connor only had 5 games...However, that doesn't take away from the fact that Quigley had a great year.

I disagree.  This award simply rewards the person who ends up scoring the most frees.
So.... They all count in a game.
How many teams lose games bemoaning the lack of a decent 9 out of 10 freetaker?

Not taking away the role of a free taker, I take them myself, but if somebody asks me what did I score in any given game I am reluctant to count the frees.  You are measured by what you score from play.  Maybe they should have an award for best free taker and one for top scorer from play.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: AZOffaly on September 25, 2015, 11:59:09 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 25, 2015, 11:54:15 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 25, 2015, 11:16:33 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 25, 2015, 11:14:02 AM
Quote from: Shrewdness on September 25, 2015, 11:12:29 AM
Cillian O'Connor deserves the award for the simple reason that he scored more than anyone else. Quigley scored his total in 6 games, whereas O'Connor only had 5 games...However, that doesn't take away from the fact that Quigley had a great year.

I disagree.  This award simply rewards the person who ends up scoring the most frees.
So.... They all count in a game.
How many teams lose games bemoaning the lack of a decent 9 out of 10 freetaker?

Not taking away the role of a free taker, I take them myself, but if somebody asks me what did I score in any given game I am reluctant to count the frees.  You are measured by what you score from play.  Maybe they should have an award for best free taker and one for top scorer from play.

Bullshit, you need someone to take the pressure frees, the difficult frees, as well as the easy 13m in front of the posts. I used take frees, and I'd always say I scored x, y from play.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on September 25, 2015, 12:34:50 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 25, 2015, 11:54:15 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 25, 2015, 11:16:33 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 25, 2015, 11:14:02 AM
Quote from: Shrewdness on September 25, 2015, 11:12:29 AM
Cillian O'Connor deserves the award for the simple reason that he scored more than anyone else. Quigley scored his total in 6 games, whereas O'Connor only had 5 games...However, that doesn't take away from the fact that Quigley had a great year.

I disagree.  This award simply rewards the person who ends up scoring the most frees.
So.... They all count in a game.
How many teams lose games bemoaning the lack of a decent 9 out of 10 freetaker?

Not taking away the role of a free taker, I take them myself, but if somebody asks me what did I score in any given game I am reluctant to count the frees.  You are measured by what you score from play.  Maybe they should have an award for best free taker and one for top scorer from play.

miss your free and people wont be slow to remind you of how many you had ,

for another thread but who would have won recent allIreland if free did not count,
eg Cluxtons last min free v kerry
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thebuzz on September 25, 2015, 12:37:35 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 25, 2015, 11:59:09 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 25, 2015, 11:54:15 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 25, 2015, 11:16:33 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 25, 2015, 11:14:02 AM
Quote from: Shrewdness on September 25, 2015, 11:12:29 AM
Cillian O'Connor deserves the award for the simple reason that he scored more than anyone else. Quigley scored his total in 6 games, whereas O'Connor only had 5 games...However, that doesn't take away from the fact that Quigley had a great year.

I disagree.  This award simply rewards the person who ends up scoring the most frees.
So.... They all count in a game.
How many teams lose games bemoaning the lack of a decent 9 out of 10 freetaker?

Not taking away the role of a free taker, I take them myself, but if somebody asks me what did I score in any given game I am reluctant to count the frees.  You are measured by what you score from play.  Maybe they should have an award for best free taker and one for top scorer from play.

Bullshit, you need someone to take the pressure frees, the difficult frees, as well as the easy 13m in front of the posts. I used take frees, and I'd always say I scored x, y from play.

At our quarter final club game against Slaughtneil I'd say more wides were kicked from frees by both teams than were kicked wide from play and none of them were high pressure kicks in the slightest.

A 9/10 free kicker is one of the most important players on the pitch in my opinion.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: tonto1888 on September 25, 2015, 01:22:32 PM
Quote from: moysider on September 24, 2015, 11:47:27 PM

There is either an award for top scorer or not.

The criterion is simple. Who scores most in championship wins the award. That is the only consideration.  All scores are weighted equally. No use bleating about it, that is the way it is. The award does not take into account scores from play being more worthy or the quality of the opposition. Good luck to anybody trying to work on a realistic system for that. Like were scores v Kildare in Cork match more worthy than scores in Kildare v Kerry when Kildare imploded. Like how does one even go about appraising the quality of a team in the first place and then reviewing that from game to game?   

The award is what it is and doesn t mean that COC is 'better' than Quigley, Brogan etc. He happened to score more. So what?

Fair play to Cillian. Some of those frees were class and he stuck 2 fine goals from play I remember and a cool pressure penalty as well.

Look, I doubt any of us are doing backflips over this. The award is what it is though.

It used he be the case in football, dunno if it is anymore, with regards to European golden boot that goals scored in certain leagues were weighted now or less than others. Eg in Scotland a goal was worth one point but 1.5 in england
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Hardy on September 25, 2015, 04:52:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 25, 2015, 11:32:55 AMIf it's called the Golden Boot, any scores which were not scored with the boot should be taken away. That would rule out O'Connor's shinner goal against Dublin, thus giving the award to Quigley.

Perhaps a separate "Golden Shin" award could be set up for scores obtained by use of the shin

Ah, I see!
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=26276.0
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: redhandroar on October 02, 2015, 11:14:06 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 25, 2015, 11:40:07 AM
Would Quigley not lose his goal for barging Cluxton over the line too if that were the case ;-)

Actually this was officially given as an OG to Cluxton although some newpaper reports credited Quigley. If he had been given this one he would have ended up with 3-36 and won, hard to argue though given that he didn't actually touch the ball. In interviews after he said he wasn't sure what happened but he thinks Cluxton must have somehow stumbled - a response like that just adds to his likeability imo!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: heffo on October 02, 2015, 12:58:05 PM
Marquee forward
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 02:08:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on October 02, 2015, 12:58:05 PM
Marquee forward

He scored 2-15 against you this year.

Fairly shite alright.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: giveballaghback on October 02, 2015, 08:09:02 PM
There is a lot of golden boots flying in Mayo this weather.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 07:39:59 PM
Did Cillian's two points yesterday make him the top scorer of all time in the championship?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Ball Hopper on June 30, 2019, 07:59:37 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 07:39:59 PM
Did Cillian's two points yesterday make him the top scorer of all time in the championship?

No...still 9 points short.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 08:06:37 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 30, 2019, 07:59:37 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 07:39:59 PM
Did Cillian's two points yesterday make him the top scorer of all time in the championship?

No...still 9 points short.

Ah right, I thought he was only 1 off for some reason
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: An Watcher on June 30, 2019, 09:10:58 PM
Thought he looked like he's carrying a few pounds
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: BennyCake on June 30, 2019, 09:24:02 PM
Quote from: An Watcher on June 30, 2019, 09:10:58 PM
Thought he looked like he's carrying a few pounds

Were there no safe boxes in the Castlebar dressing rooms?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on July 01, 2019, 10:28:10 AM
Quote from: redhandroar on October 02, 2015, 11:14:06 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 25, 2015, 11:40:07 AM
Would Quigley not lose his goal for barging Cluxton over the line too if that were the case ;-)

Actually this was officially given as an OG to Cluxton although some newpaper reports credited Quigley. If he had been given this one he would have ended up with 3-36 and won, hard to argue though given that he didn't actually touch the ball. In interviews after he said he wasn't sure what happened but he thinks Cluxton must have somehow stumbled - a response like that just adds to his likeability imo!
does the GAA officially award scores ? is there a similar committee to the dodgy goal committee in the English soccer. ot do peole just go off newspaper reports etc
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Mayo4Sam on July 01, 2019, 03:52:11 PM
He 7 points away after the weekend
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: kerryforsam19 on July 01, 2019, 04:09:27 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

He there on merit
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: BennyCake on July 01, 2019, 04:24:16 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

He's not fit to lace Murphy or McManus' boots.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: whitey on July 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

I'd be interested to see how much he scored from play against Dublin versus the Goochs tally
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on July 01, 2019, 05:18:23 PM
Some very unfair criticism here. Think about what you're criticising; a metronomic exponent of the most enjoyable part of the game. Think about that.

Someone who routinely chips in with 5-10 points in every game he plays, at every level, regardless of opposition, simply has to be described as a top class player.

Of course it's more fun to watch Gooch leaving an opponent in a tizzy, or to watch McManus kick one over from the next post code, or to watch Murphy clearing out an entire defence with one leap. But the reality is that they were often doing this because they were in the wrong place, or made the wrong run.

There's an elegant simplicity to the way O'Connor (Dean Rock, and Oisin McConville too) plays the game that is clearly lost on some.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Tubberman on July 01, 2019, 05:28:41 PM
Also unfair because the lad never claimed to be better at every aspect of the game than Murphy or McManus or anyone else, yet that's being used as a stick to beat him.
Why isn't every half-back in the country getting threads created about them saying how they're not fit to lace Lee Keegan's boots?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on July 01, 2019, 05:31:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

I'd be interested to see how much he scored from play against Dublin versus the Goochs tally
Iwhy do people forget what Games are actually about that is the team that scores the most wins, And that's what cillian brings to mayo for years mayo had good team but no free taker and teams felt free to pull and drag them at no cost . Cillian is the the most effective forward in the country over the last 7 or 8 years and crucifies poor team whose  defenders 1st thought is to foul.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on July 01, 2019, 06:58:00 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 01, 2019, 05:28:41 PM
Also unfair because the lad never claimed to be better at every aspect of the game than Murphy or McManus or anyone else, yet that's being used as a stick to beat him.
Why isn't every half-back in the country getting threads created about them saying how they're not fit to lace Lee Keegan's boots?

He's not liked , why I can never really fathom but there is certainly a general dislike for him from other counties . On the hill for a double header whatever year it was we played Tyrone in qf and dubs played donegal after (16 ?) and the abuse him and aido got from dubs fans and we not even playing them was so ott and venomous , I didn't think it existed till I actually heard myself
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: From the Bunker on July 01, 2019, 07:27:04 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

Ah, get a life! He has his worth. He's never shirks responsibility! It might not always go his way but he has a go. It's hard to believe the lad is still only 27!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: tonto1888 on July 01, 2019, 08:07:07 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on July 01, 2019, 05:31:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

I'd be interested to see how much he scored from play against Dublin versus the Goochs tally
Iwhy do people forget what Games are actually about that is the team that scores the most wins, And that's what cillian brings to mayo for years mayo had good team but no free taker and teams felt free to pull and drag them at no cost . Cillian is the the most effective forward in the country over the last 7 or 8 years and crucifies poor team whose  defenders 1st thought is to foul.

I agree with most of this except being the most effective forward in the country over the last 7/8 years. Surely rock has been more so?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: tonto1888 on July 01, 2019, 08:07:49 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

I'd be interested to see how much he scored from play against Dublin versus the Goochs tally

Do scores from play count more?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Mayo4Sam on July 01, 2019, 08:56:27 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 01, 2019, 08:07:07 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on July 01, 2019, 05:31:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

I'd be interested to see how much he scored from play against Dublin versus the Goochs tally
Iwhy do people forget what Games are actually about that is the team that scores the most wins, And that's what cillian brings to mayo for years mayo had good team but no free taker and teams felt free to pull and drag them at no cost . Cillian is the the most effective forward in the country over the last 7 or 8 years and crucifies poor team whose  defenders 1st thought is to foul.

I agree with most of this except being the most effective forward in the country over the last 7/8 years. Surely rock has been more so?

Rock is actually two years older which I was amazed at, COC averages 7.1, Rock 5.2, Rock has played 10 games less (50 v 40) but is 150 points behind. I thought they would have been much more comparable because they are very similar

Anyone who questions COC just needs to look at this point and then f*k off and accept they know f**k all about f**k all when it comes to football

https://youtu.be/AHMVIKM7wCg

Thats 10 seconds away from the end of seven minutes of injury time and he kicks it from just inside the 45, for his 7th point in an all ireland final.

And if right was right he'd have been given the chance to kick his 8th when Small picked the ball clean off the ground
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on July 01, 2019, 09:17:52 PM
Think it was bastick
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: whitey on July 01, 2019, 09:37:15 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 01, 2019, 08:07:49 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

I'd be interested to see how much he scored from play against Dublin versus the Goochs tally

Do scores from play count more?

No....but breaking it out gives a more accurate picture of a players ability

A $hite player could put up a big tally from frees, but a very good player (like COC) would score from both frees and open play
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: From the Bunker on July 01, 2019, 09:52:05 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on July 01, 2019, 08:56:27 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 01, 2019, 08:07:07 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on July 01, 2019, 05:31:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

I'd be interested to see how much he scored from play against Dublin versus the Goochs tally
Iwhy do people forget what Games are actually about that is the team that scores the most wins, And that's what cillian brings to mayo for years mayo had good team but no free taker and teams felt free to pull and drag them at no cost . Cillian is the the most effective forward in the country over the last 7 or 8 years and crucifies poor team whose  defenders 1st thought is to foul.

I agree with most of this except being the most effective forward in the country over the last 7/8 years. Surely rock has been more so?

Rock is actually two years older which I was amazed at, COC averages 7.1, Rock 5.2, Rock has played 10 games less (50 v 40) but is 150 points behind. I thought they would have been much more comparable because they are very similar

Anyone who questions COC just needs to look at this point and then f*k off and accept they know f**k all about f**k all when it comes to football

https://youtu.be/AHMVIKM7wCg

Thats 10 seconds away from the end of seven minutes of injury time and he kicks it from just inside the 45, for his 7th point in an all ireland final.

And if right was right he'd have been given the chance to kick his 8th when Small picked the ball clean off the ground

Yes the Referee bottled that one! You'll never get them calls against the Dubs in Croke Park! NEVER!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Kurtz on July 02, 2019, 07:56:37 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on July 01, 2019, 08:56:27 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 01, 2019, 08:07:07 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on July 01, 2019, 05:31:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

I'd be interested to see how much he scored from play against Dublin versus the Goochs tally
Iwhy do people forget what Games are actually about that is the team that scores the most wins, And that's what cillian brings to mayo for years mayo had good team but no free taker and teams felt free to pull and drag them at no cost . Cillian is the the most effective forward in the country over the last 7 or 8 years and crucifies poor team whose  defenders 1st thought is to foul.

I agree with most of this except being the most effective forward in the country over the last 7/8 years. Surely rock has been more so?

Rock is actually two years older which I was amazed at, COC averages 7.1, Rock 5.2, Rock has played 10 games less (50 v 40) but is 150 points behind. I thought they would have been much more comparable because they are very similar

Anyone who questions COC just needs to look at this point and then f*k off and accept they know f**k all about f**k all when it comes to football

https://youtu.be/AHMVIKM7wCg

Thats 10 seconds away from the end of seven minutes of injury time and he kicks it from just inside the 45, for his 7th point in an all ireland final.

And if right was right he'd have been given the chance to kick his 8th when Small picked the ball clean off the ground

But Rock plays with a higher scoring group of players
so he will score less than COC (Mayo need him more)
That video clip is not a great example. Because Mayo should have won that game by about 5 points
But, in the end Dublin were leading by a point before that kick. It kind of sums up that Mayo sqaud if anything.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: kerryforsam19 on July 02, 2019, 08:18:24 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on July 01, 2019, 09:52:05 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on July 01, 2019, 08:56:27 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 01, 2019, 08:07:07 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on July 01, 2019, 05:31:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

I'd be interested to see how much he scored from play against Dublin versus the Goochs tally
Iwhy do people forget what Games are actually about that is the team that scores the most wins, And that's what cillian brings to mayo for years mayo had good team but no free taker and teams felt free to pull and drag them at no cost . Cillian is the the most effective forward in the country over the last 7 or 8 years and crucifies poor team whose  defenders 1st thought is to foul.

I agree with most of this except being the most effective forward in the country over the last 7/8 years. Surely rock has been more so?

Rock is actually two years older which I was amazed at, COC averages 7.1, Rock 5.2, Rock has played 10 games less (50 v 40) but is 150 points behind. I thought they would have been much more comparable because they are very similar

Anyone who questions COC just needs to look at this point and then f*k off and accept they know f**k all about f**k all when it comes to football

https://youtu.be/AHMVIKM7wCg

Thats 10 seconds away from the end of seven minutes of injury time and he kicks it from just inside the 45, for his 7th point in an all ireland final.

And if right was right he'd have been given the chance to kick his 8th when Small picked the ball clean off the ground

Yes the Referee bottled that one! You'll never get them calls against the Dubs in Croke Park! NEVER!

A thread about Cillian Connors turns into Dublin again.  Do you think about kerry and the dubs more than your own family? 😥😥😥😥😥
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Mayo4Sam on July 02, 2019, 03:00:36 PM
Quote from: Kurtz on July 02, 2019, 07:56:37 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on July 01, 2019, 08:56:27 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 01, 2019, 08:07:07 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on July 01, 2019, 05:31:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

I'd be interested to see how much he scored from play against Dublin versus the Goochs tally
Iwhy do people forget what Games are actually about that is the team that scores the most wins, And that's what cillian brings to mayo for years mayo had good team but no free taker and teams felt free to pull and drag them at no cost . Cillian is the the most effective forward in the country over the last 7 or 8 years and crucifies poor team whose  defenders 1st thought is to foul.

I agree with most of this except being the most effective forward in the country over the last 7/8 years. Surely rock has been more so?

Rock is actually two years older which I was amazed at, COC averages 7.1, Rock 5.2, Rock has played 10 games less (50 v 40) but is 150 points behind. I thought they would have been much more comparable because they are very similar

Anyone who questions COC just needs to look at this point and then f*k off and accept they know f**k all about f**k all when it comes to football

https://youtu.be/AHMVIKM7wCg

Thats 10 seconds away from the end of seven minutes of injury time and he kicks it from just inside the 45, for his 7th point in an all ireland final.

And if right was right he'd have been given the chance to kick his 8th when Small picked the ball clean off the ground

But Rock plays with a higher scoring group of players
so he will score less than COC (Mayo need him more)
That video clip is not a great example. Because Mayo should have won that game by about 5 points
But, in the end Dublin were leading by a point before that kick. It kind of sums up that Mayo sqaud if anything.

No more than it not being about Dublin it's not about the Mayo team either, they were where they were and he kicked an absolute monster score under pressure with 10 seconds left in the biggest game of the year

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Falcao on July 02, 2019, 03:54:01 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on July 01, 2019, 08:56:27 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 01, 2019, 08:07:07 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on July 01, 2019, 05:31:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

I'd be interested to see how much he scored from play against Dublin versus the Goochs tally
Iwhy do people forget what Games are actually about that is the team that scores the most wins, And that's what cillian brings to mayo for years mayo had good team but no free taker and teams felt free to pull and drag them at no cost . Cillian is the the most effective forward in the country over the last 7 or 8 years and crucifies poor team whose  defenders 1st thought is to foul.

I agree with most of this except being the most effective forward in the country over the last 7/8 years. Surely rock has been more so?

Rock is actually two years older which I was amazed at, COC averages 7.1, Rock 5.2, Rock has played 10 games less (50 v 40) but is 150 points behind. I thought they would have been much more comparable because they are very similar

Anyone who questions COC just needs to look at this point and then f*k off and accept they know f**k all about f**k all when it comes to football

https://youtu.be/AHMVIKM7wCg

Thats 10 seconds away from the end of seven minutes of injury time and he kicks it from just inside the 45, for his 7th point in an all ireland final.

And if right was right he'd have been given the chance to kick his 8th when Small picked the ball clean off the ground

Sure that video you just linked to clearly shows Bastick got his foot under the ball when picking it up #deluded
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: magpie seanie on July 02, 2019, 04:39:56 PM
Quote from: Falcao on July 02, 2019, 03:54:01 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on July 01, 2019, 08:56:27 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 01, 2019, 08:07:07 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on July 01, 2019, 05:31:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on July 01, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Do Mayo fans seriously consider this boy to be a marquee forward? He's not in the same league as lads like Murphy or McManus. Would be a great shame to see him become all time top scorer on the back of hundreds of gimme frees.

I'd be interested to see how much he scored from play against Dublin versus the Goochs tally
Iwhy do people forget what Games are actually about that is the team that scores the most wins, And that's what cillian brings to mayo for years mayo had good team but no free taker and teams felt free to pull and drag them at no cost . Cillian is the the most effective forward in the country over the last 7 or 8 years and crucifies poor team whose  defenders 1st thought is to foul.

I agree with most of this except being the most effective forward in the country over the last 7/8 years. Surely rock has been more so?

Rock is actually two years older which I was amazed at, COC averages 7.1, Rock 5.2, Rock has played 10 games less (50 v 40) but is 150 points behind. I thought they would have been much more comparable because they are very similar

Anyone who questions COC just needs to look at this point and then f*k off and accept they know f**k all about f**k all when it comes to football

https://youtu.be/AHMVIKM7wCg

Thats 10 seconds away from the end of seven minutes of injury time and he kicks it from just inside the 45, for his 7th point in an all ireland final.

And if right was right he'd have been given the chance to kick his 8th when Small picked the ball clean off the ground

Sure that video you just linked to clearly shows Bastick got his foot under the ball when picking it up #deluded

Ya, left foot for the pickup. If you're looking for technical fouls in that clip count the steps by the Sligoman in the build up.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: oakleaflad on July 02, 2019, 04:42:37 PM
For reference:

Rank    Player              Team     Scores   Tally   Games   Era              Average
1   Colm Cooper      Kerry      23-283   352   84 games   2002-2017    4.1
2   Cillian O'Connor      Mayo     23-274   343   49 games   2011-           7.1
3   Mikey Sheehy      Kerry       29-205   292   49 games   1973-1988           6
4   John Doyle              Kildare     8-260   284   67 games   1999-2014    4.2
5   Padraig Joyce      Galway     12-229   265   66 games   1997-2012    4
6   Bernard Brogan      Dublin     21-196   259   58 games   2006-           4.5
7   Paddy Bradley      Derry     17-202   253   44 games   1999-2012    5.8
8   Steven McDonnell  Armagh     18-197   251   67 games   1999-2011    3.7
9   Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry     12-205   241   45 games   1988-2001    5.4
10   Conor McManus      Monaghan 7-227   248   56 games   2005-           4.5
11   Brian Stafford      Meath     9-206   233   41 games   1986-1995           5.7
12   Oisin McConville      Armagh     11-197   230   52 games   1994-2008           4.4
13   Jimmy Keaveney   Dublin     15-182   227   42 games   1964-1980    5.4
14   Peter Canavan      Tyrone     9-192   219   58 games   1989-2005    3.8
15   Sean Cavanagh      Tyrone     9-181   208   89 games   2002-2017    2.3
16   Dean Rock              Dublin     8-177   197   39 games   2013-           5.2
17   Colin Corkery      Cork     5-182   197   32 games   1993-2004           6.2
18   Ross Munnelly      Laois     6-174   192   74 games   2003-           2.6
19   Michael Murphy      Donegal     3-188   197   53 games   2007-           3.7
20   Dara O'Cinneide      Kerry     11-149   182   54 games   1995-2005    3.4
21   Matt Connor      Offaly     13-142   181   26 games   1978-1984    7
22   Pat Spillane      Kerry     19-123   180   56 games   1974-1991    3.2


Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Ball Hopper on July 02, 2019, 04:48:35 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on July 02, 2019, 04:42:37 PM
For reference:

Rank    Player              Team     Scores   Tally   Games   Era              Average
1   Colin Cooper      Kerry      23-283   352   84 games   2002-2017    4.1
2   Cillian O'Connor      Mayo     23-274   343   49 games   2011-           7.1
3   Mikey Sheehy      Kerry       29-205   292   49 games   1973-1988           6
4   John Doyle              Kildare     8-260   284   67 games   1999-2014    4.2
5   Padraig Joyce      Galway     12-229   265   66 games   1997-2012    4
6   Bernard Brogan      Dublin     21-196   259   58 games   2006-           4.5
7   Paddy Bradley      Derry     17-202   253   44 games   1999-2012    5.8
8   Steven McDonnell  Armagh     18-197   251   67 games   1999-2011    3.7
9   Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry     12-205   241   45 games   1988-2001    5.4
10   Conor McManus      Monaghan 7-227   248   56 games   2005-           4.5
11   Brian Stafford      Meath     9-206   233   41 games   1986-1995           5.7
12   Oisin McConville      Armagh     11-197   230   52 games   1994-2008           4.4
13   Jimmy Keaveney   Dublin     15-182   227   42 games   1964-1980    5.4
14   Peter Canavan      Tyrone     9-192   219   58 games   1989-2005    3.8
15   Sean Cavanagh      Tyrone     9-181   208   89 games   2002-2017    2.3
16   Dean Rock              Dublin     8-177   197   39 games   2013-           5.2
17   Colin Corkery      Cork     5-182   197   32 games   1993-2004           6.2
18   Ross Munnelly      Laois     6-174   192   74 games   2003-           2.6
19   Michael Murphy      Donegal     3-188   197   53 games   2007-           3.7
20   Dara O'Cinneide      Kerry     11-149   182   54 games   1995-2005    3.4
21   Matt Connor      Offaly     13-142   181   26 games   1978-1984    7
22   Pat Spillane      Kerry     19-123   180   56 games   1974-1991    3.2

Colin Cooper...how many times is that mistake repeated?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: oakleaflad on July 02, 2019, 04:52:27 PM
Copy and paste job from me. I've corrected it.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Ball Hopper on July 02, 2019, 06:07:59 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on July 02, 2019, 04:52:27 PM
Copy and paste job from me. I've corrected it.

Checked the wiki link on Colin...some soccer player in England.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on July 19, 2019, 01:37:41 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

I think he is a superb marksman - not a superb all rounder but if you are looking a man to put the ball over the bar he is deadly.

Last week showed him up in terms of his lack of pace but when he gets the ball there are few better
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: WhoDat on July 19, 2019, 01:39:57 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

He certainly does. But the way people are bending over backwards to argue with the basic facts and figures of him being top scorer just because they don't like him is bizarre to say the least. Like him or loathe him, he is the top scorer. It is just a fact.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 19, 2019, 01:48:33 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on July 02, 2019, 04:42:37 PM
For reference:

Rank    Player              Team     Scores   Tally   Games   Era              Average
1   Colm Cooper      Kerry      23-283   352   84 games   2002-2017    4.1
2   Cillian O'Connor      Mayo     23-274   343   49 games   2011-           7.1
3   Mikey Sheehy      Kerry       29-205   292   49 games   1973-1988           6
4   John Doyle              Kildare     8-260   284   67 games   1999-2014    4.2
5   Padraig Joyce      Galway     12-229   265   66 games   1997-2012    4
6   Bernard Brogan      Dublin     21-196   259   58 games   2006-           4.5
7   Paddy Bradley      Derry     17-202   253   44 games   1999-2012    5.8
8   Steven McDonnell  Armagh     18-197   251   67 games   1999-2011    3.7
9   Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry     12-205   241   45 games   1988-2001    5.4
10   Conor McManus      Monaghan 7-227   248   56 games   2005-           4.5
11   Brian Stafford      Meath     9-206   233   41 games   1986-1995           5.7
12   Oisin McConville      Armagh     11-197   230   52 games   1994-2008           4.4
13   Jimmy Keaveney   Dublin     15-182   227   42 games   1964-1980    5.4
14   Peter Canavan      Tyrone     9-192   219   58 games   1989-2005    3.8
15   Sean Cavanagh      Tyrone     9-181   208   89 games   2002-2017    2.3
16   Dean Rock              Dublin     8-177   197   39 games   2013-           5.2
17   Colin Corkery      Cork     5-182   197   32 games   1993-2004           6.2
18   Ross Munnelly      Laois     6-174   192   74 games   2003-           2.6
19   Michael Murphy      Donegal     3-188   197   53 games   2007-           3.7
20   Dara O'Cinneide      Kerry     11-149   182   54 games   1995-2005    3.4
21   Matt Connor      Offaly     13-142   181   26 games   1978-1984    7
22   Pat Spillane      Kerry     19-123   180   56 games   1974-1991    3.2

One of the stand outs for me on the list. What would he have scored if he ever got the chance to play 50 games?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on July 19, 2019, 01:50:47 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 19, 2019, 01:48:33 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on July 02, 2019, 04:42:37 PM
For reference:

Rank    Player              Team     Scores   Tally   Games   Era              Average
1   Colm Cooper      Kerry      23-283   352   84 games   2002-2017    4.1
2   Cillian O'Connor      Mayo     23-274   343   49 games   2011-           7.1
3   Mikey Sheehy      Kerry       29-205   292   49 games   1973-1988           6
4   John Doyle              Kildare     8-260   284   67 games   1999-2014    4.2
5   Padraig Joyce      Galway     12-229   265   66 games   1997-2012    4
6   Bernard Brogan      Dublin     21-196   259   58 games   2006-           4.5
7   Paddy Bradley      Derry     17-202   253   44 games   1999-2012    5.8
8   Steven McDonnell  Armagh     18-197   251   67 games   1999-2011    3.7
9   Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry     12-205   241   45 games   1988-2001    5.4
10   Conor McManus      Monaghan 7-227   248   56 games   2005-           4.5
11   Brian Stafford      Meath     9-206   233   41 games   1986-1995           5.7
12   Oisin McConville      Armagh     11-197   230   52 games   1994-2008           4.4
13   Jimmy Keaveney   Dublin     15-182   227   42 games   1964-1980    5.4
14   Peter Canavan      Tyrone     9-192   219   58 games   1989-2005    3.8
15   Sean Cavanagh      Tyrone     9-181   208   89 games   2002-2017    2.3
16   Dean Rock              Dublin     8-177   197   39 games   2013-           5.2
17   Colin Corkery      Cork     5-182   197   32 games   1993-2004           6.2
18   Ross Munnelly      Laois     6-174   192   74 games   2003-           2.6
19   Michael Murphy      Donegal     3-188   197   53 games   2007-           3.7
20   Dara O'Cinneide      Kerry     11-149   182   54 games   1995-2005    3.4
21   Matt Connor      Offaly     13-142   181   26 games   1978-1984    7
22   Pat Spillane      Kerry     19-123   180   56 games   1974-1991    3.2

One of the stand outs for me on the list. What would he have scored if he ever got the chance to play 50 games?

348 points leaving him in second place and above the Gooch
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 19, 2019, 01:59:06 PM
Quote from: Taylor on July 19, 2019, 01:50:47 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 19, 2019, 01:48:33 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on July 02, 2019, 04:42:37 PM
For reference:

Rank    Player              Team     Scores   Tally   Games   Era              Average
1   Colm Cooper      Kerry      23-283   352   84 games   2002-2017    4.1
2   Cillian O'Connor      Mayo     23-274   343   49 games   2011-           7.1
3   Mikey Sheehy      Kerry       29-205   292   49 games   1973-1988           6
4   John Doyle              Kildare     8-260   284   67 games   1999-2014    4.2
5   Padraig Joyce      Galway     12-229   265   66 games   1997-2012    4
6   Bernard Brogan      Dublin     21-196   259   58 games   2006-           4.5
7   Paddy Bradley      Derry     17-202   253   44 games   1999-2012    5.8
8   Steven McDonnell  Armagh     18-197   251   67 games   1999-2011    3.7
9   Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry     12-205   241   45 games   1988-2001    5.4
10   Conor McManus      Monaghan 7-227   248   56 games   2005-           4.5
11   Brian Stafford      Meath     9-206   233   41 games   1986-1995           5.7
12   Oisin McConville      Armagh     11-197   230   52 games   1994-2008           4.4
13   Jimmy Keaveney   Dublin     15-182   227   42 games   1964-1980    5.4
14   Peter Canavan      Tyrone     9-192   219   58 games   1989-2005    3.8
15   Sean Cavanagh      Tyrone     9-181   208   89 games   2002-2017    2.3
16   Dean Rock              Dublin     8-177   197   39 games   2013-           5.2
17   Colin Corkery      Cork     5-182   197   32 games   1993-2004           6.2
18   Ross Munnelly      Laois     6-174   192   74 games   2003-           2.6
19   Michael Murphy      Donegal     3-188   197   53 games   2007-           3.7
20   Dara O'Cinneide      Kerry     11-149   182   54 games   1995-2005    3.4
21   Matt Connor      Offaly     13-142   181   26 games   1978-1984    7
22   Pat Spillane      Kerry     19-123   180   56 games   1974-1991    3.2

One of the stand outs for me on the list. What would he have scored if he ever got the chance to play 50 games?

348 points leaving him in second place and above the Gooch

He was only 24 when his career was unfortunately cut short and many forwards improve their scoring by mid 20s.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: GalwayBayBoy on July 19, 2019, 02:34:32 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

I think his behaviour on the field definitely counts against him. At least in the court of public opinion.

As an aside how many of the 22 players on that top scorers list would people select ahead of COC if it was a straight selection?

I mean it's a strange one. Is he even the best Mayo forward of the modern era. I imagine plenty would select McDonald ahead of him and some might even pick Andy Moran.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on July 19, 2019, 02:42:06 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 19, 2019, 01:59:06 PM
Quote from: Taylor on July 19, 2019, 01:50:47 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 19, 2019, 01:48:33 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on July 02, 2019, 04:42:37 PM
For reference:

Rank    Player              Team     Scores   Tally   Games   Era              Average
1   Colm Cooper      Kerry      23-283   352   84 games   2002-2017    4.1
2   Cillian O'Connor      Mayo     23-274   343   49 games   2011-           7.1
3   Mikey Sheehy      Kerry       29-205   292   49 games   1973-1988           6
4   John Doyle              Kildare     8-260   284   67 games   1999-2014    4.2
5   Padraig Joyce      Galway     12-229   265   66 games   1997-2012    4
6   Bernard Brogan      Dublin     21-196   259   58 games   2006-           4.5
7   Paddy Bradley      Derry     17-202   253   44 games   1999-2012    5.8
8   Steven McDonnell  Armagh     18-197   251   67 games   1999-2011    3.7
9   Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry     12-205   241   45 games   1988-2001    5.4
10   Conor McManus      Monaghan 7-227   248   56 games   2005-           4.5
11   Brian Stafford      Meath     9-206   233   41 games   1986-1995           5.7
12   Oisin McConville      Armagh     11-197   230   52 games   1994-2008           4.4
13   Jimmy Keaveney   Dublin     15-182   227   42 games   1964-1980    5.4
14   Peter Canavan      Tyrone     9-192   219   58 games   1989-2005    3.8
15   Sean Cavanagh      Tyrone     9-181   208   89 games   2002-2017    2.3
16   Dean Rock              Dublin     8-177   197   39 games   2013-           5.2
17   Colin Corkery      Cork     5-182   197   32 games   1993-2004           6.2
18   Ross Munnelly      Laois     6-174   192   74 games   2003-           2.6
19   Michael Murphy      Donegal     3-188   197   53 games   2007-           3.7
20   Dara O'Cinneide      Kerry     11-149   182   54 games   1995-2005    3.4
21   Matt Connor      Offaly     13-142   181   26 games   1978-1984    7
22   Pat Spillane      Kerry     19-123   180   56 games   1974-1991    3.2

One of the stand outs for me on the list. What would he have scored if he ever got the chance to play 50 games?

348 points leaving him in second place and above the Gooch

He was only 24 when his career was unfortunately cut short and many forwards improve their scoring by mid 20s.

he is second in average tp Cillian .My impression is its a lot easier to get frees now than in Matt's day .
Maurice Fitzgerald  was probably as good a free taker but I suppose its because he often played in poor enough Kerry teams  and pre back door he only played 45 games?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on July 19, 2019, 02:42:54 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on July 19, 2019, 02:34:32 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

I think his behaviour on the field definitely counts against him. At least in the court of public opinion.

As an aside how many of the 22 players on that top scorers list would people select ahead of COC if it was a straight selection?

I mean it's a strange one. Is he even the best Mayo forward of the modern era. I imagine plenty would select McDonald ahead of him and some might even pick Andy Moran.
that would be just a count of how many people were wrong
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: WhoDat on July 19, 2019, 02:45:25 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on July 19, 2019, 02:34:32 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

I think his behaviour on the field definitely counts against him. At least in the court of public opinion.

As an aside how many of the 22 players on that top scorers list would people select ahead of COC if it was a straight selection?

I mean it's a strange one. Is he even the best Mayo forward of the modern era. I imagine plenty would select McDonald ahead of him and some might even pick Andy Moran.

McDonald more flash and Moran more clever, but O'Connor is easily more clinical than both. O'Connor has a harder edge than both too, which like it or loathe it, it's what you need at the highest level. I would pick O'Connor over either.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 03:21:11 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on July 19, 2019, 02:34:32 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

I think his behaviour on the field definitely counts against him. At least in the court of public opinion.

As an aside how many of the 22 players on that top scorers list would people select ahead of COC if it was a straight selection?

I mean it's a strange one. Is he even the best Mayo forward of the modern era. I imagine plenty would select McDonald ahead of him and some might even pick Andy Moran.

He'll go down as a Mayo great but he's not in the same class as the best forwards of the last 10 years like Murphy, McManus & Brogan and even now I wouldn't find it too difficult to name 10 other forwards I'd take over him.

According to Colm Keys he averages about 1 point from play per game.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: fearsiuil on July 19, 2019, 07:25:33 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 03:21:11 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on July 19, 2019, 02:34:32 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

I think his behaviour on the field definitely counts against him. At least in the court of public opinion.

As an aside how many of the 22 players on that top scorers list would people select ahead of COC if it was a straight selection?

I mean it's a strange one. Is he even the best Mayo forward of the modern era. I imagine plenty would select McDonald ahead of him and some might even pick Andy Moran.

He'll go down as a Mayo great but he's not in the same class as the best forwards of the last 10 years like Murphy, McManus & Brogan and even now I wouldn't find it too difficult to name 10 other forwards I'd take over him.

According to Colm Keys he averages about 1 point from play per game.
Galway boys not happy Cillian top of heap. If, buts & maybes.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Tubberman on July 19, 2019, 08:00:27 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 03:21:11 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on July 19, 2019, 02:34:32 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

I think his behaviour on the field definitely counts against him. At least in the court of public opinion.

As an aside how many of the 22 players on that top scorers list would people select ahead of COC if it was a straight selection?

I mean it's a strange one. Is he even the best Mayo forward of the modern era. I imagine plenty would select McDonald ahead of him and some might even pick Andy Moran.

He'll go down as a Mayo great but he's not in the same class as the best forwards of the last 10 years like Murphy, McManus & Brogan and even now I wouldn't find it too difficult to name 10 other forwards I'd take over him.

According to Colm Keys he averages about 1 point from play per game.



Those 10 players wouldn't get as many scores as Cillian - fact.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: whitey on July 19, 2019, 08:15:17 PM
So Mayo the perennial softies who got kicked around the field by all in sundry, finally have a player who meets fire with fire, and all of a sudden he's the biggest cvnt who ever played
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on July 19, 2019, 10:06:59 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 03:21:11 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on July 19, 2019, 02:34:32 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

I think his behaviour on the field definitely counts against him. At least in the court of public opinion.

As an aside how many of the 22 players on that top scorers list would people select ahead of COC if it was a straight selection?

I mean it's a strange one. Is he even the best Mayo forward of the modern era. I imagine plenty would select McDonald ahead of him and some might even pick Andy Moran.

He'll go down as a Mayo great but he's not in the same class as the best forwards of the last 10 years like Murphy, McManus & Brogan and even now I wouldn't find it too difficult to name 10 other forwards I'd take over him.

According to Colm Keys he averages about 1 point from play per game.

He actually averages just over 2 points from play per game. Also, there was a piece in the Mayo News this week saying if you exclude games against London and New York his average in total and from play is higher.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: dublin7 on July 19, 2019, 10:32:11 PM
COC is a good player but stats can be misleading.

All the top players even in modern time Cooper,Brogan,Canavan etc were players who delivered in All Ireland finals (from play)

COC is decent (not great at frees) and has had how many qualifier games to build up his scoring total compared to his peers.

The ultimate indictment of COC for me is that he lacks pace and cant get a point out of nothing like a Brogan or a Cooper with his speed. Also come All Ireland final day when Mayo needed him he has buckled on his frees compared to Brogan, Cooper, Canavan etc. who delivered when really needed
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: kerryforsam19 on July 19, 2019, 10:36:07 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on July 19, 2019, 02:34:32 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

I think his behaviour on the field definitely counts against him. At least in the court of public opinion.

As an aside how many of the 22 players on that top scorers list would people select ahead of COC if it was a straight selection?

I mean it's a strange one. Is he even the best Mayo forward of the modern era. I imagine plenty would select McDonald ahead of him and some might even pick Andy Moran.

Sure he's laying down a marker. How many times has he been sent off?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on July 19, 2019, 10:40:25 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on July 19, 2019, 10:32:11 PM
COC is a good player but stats can be misleading.

All the top players even in modern time Cooper,Brogan,Canavan etc were players who delivered in All Ireland finals (from play)

COC is decent (not great at frees) and has had how many qualifier games to build up his scoring total compared to his peers.

The ultimate indictment of COC for me is that he lacks pace and cant get a point out of nothing like a Brogan or a Cooper with his speed. Also come All Ireland final day when Mayo needed him he has buckled on his frees compared to Brogan, Cooper, Canavan etc. who delivered when really needed

Cooper played in more qualifier games than Cillian has. Don't see why people come up with these strawman arguments when talking about him. He has got several brilliant scores from play in All Ireland finals, semi-finals etc.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: dublin7 on July 19, 2019, 11:22:55 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on July 19, 2019, 10:40:25 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on July 19, 2019, 10:32:11 PM
COC is a good player but stats can be misleading.

All the top players even in modern time Cooper,Brogan,Canavan etc were players who delivered in All Ireland finals (from play)

COC is decent (not great at frees) and has had how many qualifier games to build up his scoring total compared to his peers.

The ultimate indictment of COC for me is that he lacks pace and cant get a point out of nothing like a Brogan or a Cooper with his speed. Also come All Ireland final day when Mayo needed him he has buckled on his frees compared to Brogan, Cooper, Canavan etc. who delivered when really needed

Cooper played in more qualifier games than Cillian has. Don't see why people come up with these strawman arguments when talking about him. He has got several brilliant scores from play in All Ireland finals, semi-finals etc.

The really top players (in any sport) are the ones who deliver on the big occasions in finals. Brogan, Cooper and Canavan are examples of this in GAA in just the last 10 years. When Mayo needed COC to kick frees in All Ireland finals he has buckled under the pressure. He might be one of Mayo's top players but he's not in the same league on a national scale compared to the trully top forwards.

All  the top sides who have won All Irelands have had at least one top class forward. It's no coincidence that Mayo have lacked that lethal forward in all their hard luck stories down the years
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: whitey on July 19, 2019, 11:23:31 PM
Quote from: kerryforsam19 on July 19, 2019, 10:36:07 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on July 19, 2019, 02:34:32 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

I think his behaviour on the field definitely counts against him. At least in the court of public opinion.

As an aside how many of the 22 players on that top scorers list would people select ahead of COC if it was a straight selection?

I mean it's a strange one. Is he even the best Mayo forward of the modern era. I imagine plenty would select McDonald ahead of him and some might even pick Andy Moran.

Sure he's laying down a marker. How many times has he been sent off?

I only remember him getting sent off once. It was last year against Galway in the FBD
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: GalwayBayBoy on July 20, 2019, 12:03:40 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2019, 11:23:31 PM
Quote from: kerryforsam19 on July 19, 2019, 10:36:07 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on July 19, 2019, 02:34:32 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

I think his behaviour on the field definitely counts against him. At least in the court of public opinion.

As an aside how many of the 22 players on that top scorers list would people select ahead of COC if it was a straight selection?

I mean it's a strange one. Is he even the best Mayo forward of the modern era. I imagine plenty would select McDonald ahead of him and some might even pick Andy Moran.

Sure he's laying down a marker. How many times has he been sent off?

I only remember him getting sent off once. It was last year against Galway in the FBD

That was in the post for about 5 years to be fair. Has got away with an awful lot. Not even a criticism. Just the way it was.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Mayo4Sam14 on July 20, 2019, 12:48:50 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2019, 11:23:31 PM
Quote from: kerryforsam19 on July 19, 2019, 10:36:07 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on July 19, 2019, 02:34:32 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 19, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Don't think anyone divides opinion as much as Cillian O'Connor.

I think his behaviour on the field definitely counts against him. At least in the court of public opinion.

As an aside how many of the 22 players on that top scorers list would people select ahead of COC if it was a straight selection?

I mean it's a strange one. Is he even the best Mayo forward of the modern era. I imagine plenty would select McDonald ahead of him and some might even pick Andy Moran.

Sure he's laying down a marker. How many times has he been sent off?

I only remember him getting sent off once. It was last year against Galway in the FBD

2014 replay is another
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on July 20, 2019, 03:03:31 AM
A big part of the knock (other than his on-field persona) seems to be that his tally is overly reliant on frees.  Dean Rock, for years, had the same criticism raised against him. 

Once scores from frees are worth the same as scores from open play, those critics will be eating their worlds.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Tubberman on July 20, 2019, 07:38:19 AM
Quote from: dublin7 on July 19, 2019, 11:22:55 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on July 19, 2019, 10:40:25 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on July 19, 2019, 10:32:11 PM
COC is a good player but stats can be misleading.

All the top players even in modern time Cooper,Brogan,Canavan etc were players who delivered in All Ireland finals (from play)

COC is decent (not great at frees) and has had how many qualifier games to build up his scoring total compared to his peers.

The ultimate indictment of COC for me is that he lacks pace and cant get a point out of nothing like a Brogan or a Cooper with his speed. Also come All Ireland final day when Mayo needed him he has buckled on his frees compared to Brogan, Cooper, Canavan etc. who delivered when really needed

Cooper played in more qualifier games than Cillian has. Don't see why people come up with these strawman arguments when talking about him. He has got several brilliant scores from play in All Ireland finals, semi-finals etc.

The really top players (in any sport) are the ones who deliver on the big occasions in finals. Brogan, Cooper and Canavan are examples of this in GAA in just the last 10 years. When Mayo needed COC to kick frees in All Ireland finals he has buckled under the pressure. He might be one of Mayo's top players but he's not in the same league on a national scale compared to the trully top forwards.

All  the top sides who have won All Irelands have had at least one top class forward. It's no coincidence that Mayo have lacked that lethal forward in all their hard luck stories down the years

Scored equalising point from play in 2016 all ireland final in injury time in pissing rain from 40m.
His scoring averages are higher against Dublin and Kerry than other counties. 
Not in the same scale as the other forwards except that by the age of 27 he has scored more than any of them did in their whole careers. Some would say the primary job of a forward is to score...
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: magpie seanie on July 20, 2019, 10:57:10 AM
COC plays in a team that doesn't really have another consistently reliable shooter. He's the go to guy on a team that is and has been one of the top sides in the country throughout his career. I also think Mayo's style of play and the reluctance (at times) of other Mayo forwards to shoot contributes to them being a side that gets a lot of frees.

So COC gets lots of opportunities and he's reasonably accurate. Just off the tip top level I'd say but really good.

It's a pretty amazing achievement to top that list at age 27 all things considered and underlines his importance to Mayo.

People "don't give him the credit he deserves"  ::) a bit because of his cynicism and constant bleating to refs. I think that differentiates him from the other forwards on the list. He really sails close to the wind most of the time and I think a lot of it is unnecessary.

It's a list of top scorers, not a list of the best forwards.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Lar Naparka on July 20, 2019, 12:20:55 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 20, 2019, 10:57:10 AM
COC plays in a team that doesn't really have another consistently reliable shooter. He's the go to guy on a team that is and has been one of the top sides in the country throughout his career. I also think Mayo's style of play and the reluctance (at times) of other Mayo forwards to shoot contributes to them being a side that gets a lot of frees.

So COC gets lots of opportunities and he's reasonably accurate. Just off the tip top level I'd say but really good.

It's a pretty amazing achievement to top that list at age 27 all things considered and underlines his importance to Mayo.

People "don't give him the credit he deserves"  ::) a bit because of his cy, I was realnicism and constant bleating to refs. I think that differentiates him from the other forwards
on the list. He really sails close to the wind most of the time and I think a lot of it is unnecessary.

It's a list of top scorers, not a list of the best forwards.
I'd have to agree with you on all counts.
Back in his YPOTY days I was really excited about his potential; he seemed to have all it takes to be a top class player. Then, sadly, he seeme to lose his way and he deserved his reputation for gesticulating at referees and slinging insults and sly digs at all around him.
To be fair to him, he could be getting a lot of "attention" from his markers who knew that he was hot-tempered and were trying to provoke him.He did have serious injuries and that had to lessen his input as time  went on and I know the time he missed THAT free upset the poor fella for months afterwards.
All in all, you would have to make allowances but it still doesn't alter the fact than his potential was being wasted. AOS got at least as much hassle and din't get in ref's bad books in the process.
Last time he got sent off really pissed me off. He deserved the line and could have got it earlier.
I tend to keep an eye on what's happening off the ball throughout a game and Cillian was niggling all around him - a case of getting his retaliation in first. If the ref was doing his job, COC could have been spotted a lot earlier.
However, he seems to be enjoying his football since his latest return and I haven't seen a single narky incident so far. I just hope it stays that way and he gets back to his old self once again.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 16, 2020, 11:13:12 AM
The don't foul guy has some interesting stats and graphs up on free takers over the past 4/5/6/7 years.

I think those of us who are on the side of O'Connor being overrated are probably proven correct here.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: joemamas on June 16, 2020, 05:18:36 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 20, 2019, 07:38:19 AM
Quote from: dublin7 on July 19, 2019, 11:22:55 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on July 19, 2019, 10:40:25 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on July 19, 2019, 10:32:11 PM
COC is a good player but stats can be misleading.

All the top players even in modern time Cooper,Brogan,Canavan etc were players who delivered in All Ireland finals (from play)

COC is decent (not great at frees) and has had how many qualifier games to build up his scoring total compared to his peers.

The ultimate indictment of COC for me is that he lacks pace and cant get a point out of nothing like a Brogan or a Cooper with his speed. Also come All Ireland final day when Mayo needed him he has buckled on his frees compared to Brogan, Cooper, Canavan etc. who delivered when really needed

Cooper played in more qualifier games than Cillian has. Don't see why people come up with these strawman arguments when talking about him. He has got several brilliant scores from play in All Ireland finals, semi-finals etc.

The really top players (in any sport) are the ones who deliver on the big occasions in finals. Brogan, Cooper and Canavan are examples of this in GAA in just the last 10 years. When Mayo needed COC to kick frees in All Ireland finals he has buckled under the pressure. He might be one of Mayo's top players but he's not in the same league on a national scale compared to the trully top forwards.

All  the top sides who have won All Irelands have had at least one top class forward. It's no coincidence that Mayo have lacked that lethal forward in all their hard luck stories down the years

Scored equalising point from play in 2016 all ireland final in injury time in pissing rain from 40m.
His scoring averages are higher against Dublin and Kerry than other counties. 
Not in the same scale as the other forwards except that by the age of 27 he has scored more than any of them did in their whole careers. Some would say the primary job of a forward is to score...

That score alone sums up what a leader and a go-to player should be.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on June 16, 2020, 05:24:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 16, 2020, 11:13:12 AM
The don't foul guy has some interesting stats and graphs up on free takers over the past 4/5/6/7 years.

I think those of us who are on the side of O'Connor being overrated are probably proven correct here.

Yeeesssssss! They'll be dancing in the streets of some backwater tonight (socially distanced I hope). Some result for those saying an amateur footballer is overrated
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 17, 2020, 07:44:13 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 16, 2020, 05:24:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 16, 2020, 11:13:12 AM
The don't foul guy has some interesting stats and graphs up on free takers over the past 4/5/6/7 years.

I think those of us who are on the side of O'Connor being overrated are probably proven correct here.

Yeeesssssss! They'll be dancing in the streets of some backwater tonight (socially distanced I hope). Some result for those saying an amateur footballer is overrated

It's an interesting read and puts some perspective to both sides of the argument.

Try not to let your Derryness turn this into some sort of weird agenda.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: dublin7 on June 17, 2020, 03:09:40 PM
Quote from: joemamas on June 16, 2020, 05:18:36 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 20, 2019, 07:38:19 AM
Quote from: dublin7 on July 19, 2019, 11:22:55 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on July 19, 2019, 10:40:25 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on July 19, 2019, 10:32:11 PM
COC is a good player but stats can be misleading.

All the top players even in modern time Cooper,Brogan,Canavan etc were players who delivered in All Ireland finals (from play)

COC is decent (not great at frees) and has had how many qualifier games to build up his scoring total compared to his peers.

The ultimate indictment of COC for me is that he lacks pace and cant get a point out of nothing like a Brogan or a Cooper with his speed. Also come All Ireland final day when Mayo needed him he has buckled on his frees compared to Brogan, Cooper, Canavan etc. who delivered when really needed

Cooper played in more qualifier games than Cillian has. Don't see why people come up with these strawman arguments when talking about him. He has got several brilliant scores from play in All Ireland finals, semi-finals etc.

The really top players (in any sport) are the ones who deliver on the big occasions in finals. Brogan, Cooper and Canavan are examples of this in GAA in just the last 10 years. When Mayo needed COC to kick frees in All Ireland finals he has buckled under the pressure. He might be one of Mayo's top players but he's not in the same league on a national scale compared to the trully top forwards.

All  the top sides who have won All Irelands have had at least one top class forward. It's no coincidence that Mayo have lacked that lethal forward in all their hard luck stories down the years

Scored equalising point from play in 2016 all ireland final in injury time in pissing rain from 40m.
His scoring averages are higher against Dublin and Kerry than other counties. 
Not in the same scale as the other forwards except that by the age of 27 he has scored more than any of them did in their whole careers. Some would say the primary job of a forward is to score...

That score alone sums up what a leader and a go-to player should be.

The missed frees are just as much an example of the other side. Has missed important ones against Galway the last few years in connaght as well.  I'd have rated Andy Moran ahead of him on the Mayo team.   
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: tiempo on June 17, 2020, 03:53:07 PM
Look if he was any good he'd be able to kick the ball through the damn tyre

Score to beat: 1  :-X  ;D

Typical Mayo found a way to come second

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtcy-WgTWbI&list=PL6CcWi_V5ZqtnbzECDqwo7bv_kZVi2tEj&index=9
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: From the Bunker on June 17, 2020, 04:14:44 PM
Quote from: tiempo on June 17, 2020, 03:53:07 PM
Look if he was any good he'd be able to kick the ball through the damn tyre

Score to beat: 1  :-X  ;D

Typical Mayo found a way to come second

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtcy-WgTWbI&list=PL6CcWi_V5ZqtnbzECDqwo7bv_kZVi2tEj&index=9

Yeah, except the score to beat was one and he got one. So where in that did he come second?  ;)
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Captain Obvious on June 17, 2020, 04:55:55 PM
From my reading of those stats Cillian O'Connor peaked a few years ago maybe injuries played a part in that? Dean Rock the most consistent free taker in the game at the moment and in a year or two it could be Sean O'Shea.

Conor McManus lack of consistency on frees a surprise.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 17, 2020, 06:21:27 PM
Are Mayo the only top county who have a free taker taking them from the wrong side?

Pretty much every other top county has a left footed free taker and a right footed one.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: StephenC on June 17, 2020, 10:25:24 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on June 17, 2020, 04:55:55 PM
From my reading of those stats Cillian O'Connor peaked a few years ago maybe injuries played a part in that? Dean Rock the most consistent free taker in the game at the moment and in a year or two it could be Sean O'Shea.

Conor McManus lack of consistency on frees a surprise.

And for me, surprised to see that Murphy is in the same bracket. The top 3 really seem to be out on their own.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: From the Bunker on June 17, 2020, 10:35:35 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on June 17, 2020, 04:55:55 PM
From my reading of those stats Cillian O'Connor peaked a few years ago maybe injuries played a part in that? Dean Rock the most consistent free taker in the game at the moment and in a year or two it could be Sean O'Shea.

Conor McManus lack of consistency on frees a surprise.

Dean Rock has a great record scoring in home matches in the Championship. Probably the best in the country. It's hard to see any one match him at present.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: From the Bunker on June 17, 2020, 10:41:53 PM
Here's a question for the anoraks out there ......

When is the last time Dublin got beat in an away game in the Championship?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Maiden1 on June 17, 2020, 11:11:42 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 17, 2020, 10:41:53 PM
Here's a question for the anoraks out there ......

When is the last time Dublin got beat in an away game in the Championship?
Dublin   0-11 – 2-9   Laois   O'Connor Park, Tullamore 1981 possibly
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Gael85 on June 17, 2020, 11:41:56 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on June 17, 2020, 04:55:55 PM
From my reading of those stats Cillian O'Connor peaked a few years ago maybe injuries played a part in that? Dean Rock the most consistent free taker in the game at the moment and in a year or two it could be Sean O'Shea.

Conor McManus lack of consistency on frees a surprise.

McManus wouldn't take many long range frees. Beggan takes most places balls from 45-60 yards. Sean O'Shea rarely misses a free. Michael Murphy consistent off the  ground too.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Gael85 on June 17, 2020, 11:55:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 20, 2019, 10:57:10 AM
COC plays in a team that doesn't really have another consistently reliable shooter. He's the go to guy on a team that is and has been one of the top sides in the country throughout his career. I also think Mayo's style of play and the reluctance (at times) of other Mayo forwards to shoot contributes to them being a side that gets a lot of frees.

So COC gets lots of opportunities and he's reasonably accurate. Just off the tip top level I'd say but really good.

It's a pretty amazing achievement to top that list at age 27 all things considered and underlines his importance to Mayo.

People "don't give him the credit he deserves"  ::) a bit because of his cynicism and constant bleating to refs. I think that differentiates him from the other forwards on the list. He really sails close to the wind most of the time and I think a lot of it is unnecessary.

It's a list of top scorers, not a list of the best forwards.

In fairness he kicked 3 points from play in 2017. Stood up in second half when Moran and Doherty faded. The build up to free he won and kicked off post in 2017 should actually been line ball to Dublin. He gets too involved with referees which wastes his energy and focus on actual game. Trying to help referee ref the game saves him from many a red card as fond of tackling with closed fist .
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: From the Bunker on June 18, 2020, 07:45:38 AM
Quote from: Maiden1 on June 17, 2020, 11:11:42 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 17, 2020, 10:41:53 PM
Here's a question for the anoraks out there ......

When is the last time Dublin got beat in an away game in the Championship?
Dublin   0-11 – 2-9   Laois   O'Connor Park, Tullamore 1981 possibly

Tullamore would have been a neutral not an away fixture!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: imtommygunn on June 18, 2020, 07:52:55 AM
Did Tyrone not beat them in Omagh maybe two years ago?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 18, 2020, 09:46:49 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 18, 2020, 07:52:55 AM
Did Tyrone not beat them in Omagh maybe two years ago?

Nope think it was a two or three point defeat.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Maiden1 on June 18, 2020, 09:51:56 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 18, 2020, 07:45:38 AM
Quote from: Maiden1 on June 17, 2020, 11:11:42 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 17, 2020, 10:41:53 PM
Here's a question for the anoraks out there ......

When is the last time Dublin got beat in an away game in the Championship?
Dublin   0-11 – 2-9   Laois   O'Connor Park, Tullamore 1981 possibly

Tullamore would have been a neutral not an away fixture!

They played a lot of games at neutral venues before 1974. 

1953 Meath   2–6 – 2–5   Dublin  Páirc Tailteann, Navan

Seems to be the last time
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 20, 2020, 10:12:28 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 16, 2020, 11:13:12 AM
The don't foul guy has some interesting stats and graphs up on free takers over the past 4/5/6/7 years.

I think those of us who are on the side of O'Connor being overrated are probably proven correct here.

He has one all star. How is that overrated?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on June 20, 2020, 12:17:15 PM
I'd go as far as to describe COC as the most underrated player in history.

The all-time top scorer in championship football, with a superlative goal scoring record. But because he efficient rather than flashy, there's a queue of people who prefer to concentrate on what he does do, rather than what he does do (which is consistently rattle up more points per game than anyone else bar Dean Rock).
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: From the Bunker on June 20, 2020, 12:47:36 PM
Cillian O'Connor will always have his knockers. Understandable, he's a hateful player to have as a opponent.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 20, 2020, 01:16:58 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 20, 2020, 10:12:28 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 16, 2020, 11:13:12 AM
The don't foul guy has some interesting stats and graphs up on free takers over the past 4/5/6/7 years.

I think those of us who are on the side of O'Connor being overrated are probably proven correct here.

He has one all star. How is that overrated?

I'd point to the fact that the likes of Jason Doherty has none. If you gave me the option of a straight up choice between Doherty and O'Connor, I'd have Doherty every day. The reason O'Connor gets the plaudits is because his scoring stats are massaged by tap over frees due to Mayo's hard running game which draws loads of frees in front of the posts.

Mayo's first choice forward 6 over the past 7/8 years has been along the lines of:

D O'Connor O'Shea McLoughlin
Moran C O'Connor Doherty

From my own viewpoint, C O'Connor is the weakest of those players from open play and the stats point towards his free taking prowess as decent and not top level.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: dublin7 on June 20, 2020, 02:33:47 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 20, 2020, 12:47:36 PM
Cillian O'Connor will always have his knockers. Understandable, he's a hateful player to have as a opponent.
That's true. He is lethal with those elbows.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 20, 2020, 02:53:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 20, 2020, 01:16:58 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 20, 2020, 10:12:28 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 16, 2020, 11:13:12 AM
The don't foul guy has some interesting stats and graphs up on free takers over the past 4/5/6/7 years.

I think those of us who are on the side of O'Connor being overrated are probably proven correct here.

He has one all star. How is that overrated?

I'd point to the fact that the likes of Jason Doherty has none. If you gave me the option of a straight up choice between Doherty and O'Connor, I'd have Doherty every day. The reason O'Connor gets the plaudits is because his scoring stats are massaged by tap over frees due to Mayo's hard running game which draws loads of frees in front of the posts.

Mayo's first choice forward 6 over the past 7/8 years has been along the lines of:

D O'Connor O'Shea McLoughlin
Moran C O'Connor Doherty

From my own viewpoint, C O'Connor is the weakest of those players from open play and the stats point towards his free taking prowess as decent and not top level.

What plaudits does O'Connor get? He's never included in conversations about top forwards despite his scoring rate being comparable to anyone. He contributes plenty from open play between scores and assists.

I like Jason Doherty but his main qualities are as a ball winner. Doesn't have the creativity or scoring prowess that Cillian has. When he's out (e.g. vs Roscommon last year) we're far less of a team.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 20, 2020, 11:22:36 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 20, 2020, 02:53:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 20, 2020, 01:16:58 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 20, 2020, 10:12:28 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 16, 2020, 11:13:12 AM
The don't foul guy has some interesting stats and graphs up on free takers over the past 4/5/6/7 years.

I think those of us who are on the side of O'Connor being overrated are probably proven correct here.

He has one all star. How is that overrated?

I'd point to the fact that the likes of Jason Doherty has none. If you gave me the option of a straight up choice between Doherty and O'Connor, I'd have Doherty every day. The reason O'Connor gets the plaudits is because his scoring stats are massaged by tap over frees due to Mayo's hard running game which draws loads of frees in front of the posts.

Mayo's first choice forward 6 over the past 7/8 years has been along the lines of:

D O'Connor O'Shea McLoughlin
Moran C O'Connor Doherty

From my own viewpoint, C O'Connor is the weakest of those players from open play and the stats point towards his free taking prowess as decent and not top level.

What plaudits does O'Connor get? He's never included in conversations about top forwards despite his scoring rate being comparable to anyone. He contributes plenty from open play between scores and assists.

I like Jason Doherty but his main qualities are as a ball winner. Doesn't have the creativity or scoring prowess that Cillian has. When he's out (e.g. vs Roscommon last year) we're far less of a team.

He gets an awful lot of plaudits from pundits and journalists, far more than his brother gets or players like McLoughlin or Doherty who are all much better players for me.

It's not an anti-Mayo thing and I appreciate O'Connor is the kind of player the opposition will hate because of the way he goes on but everyone wants a guy on their team who will push the line in their will to win. I just happen to think from open play he is too limited to be considered a top level forward.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on June 20, 2020, 11:33:22 PM
Agree with Angelo on this one. Nowhere near as influential from open play compared to the real top forwards never mind his scoring record. He's a free kick merchant 
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: mouview on June 21, 2020, 11:15:41 AM
Scored a great clutch-point from play to send the 2017 final to a replay.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 21, 2020, 01:22:22 PM
Quote from: mouview on June 21, 2020, 11:15:41 AM
Scored a great clutch-point from play to send the 2017 final to a replay.

I'd say three or four years ago you could have made a point of carrying him for his free taking duties, I think his success rate has plummeted badly over the past 3 or 4 seasons. The vast majority of his frees though are probably fairly central inside thirty metres, you'd be expecting any decent free taker to be hitting 90% of those.

I look at someone like McAliskey for Tyrone who I would regard as a good player but he's been in and out of the Tyrone team, he can be a little inconsistent but on the top of his game I'd take him over Cillian O'Connor on the top of his game anyday, same for McCurry. The one season where McAliskey was a regular in the Tyrone side and trusted with the free taking duties (mainly only the frees from the left and the odd long range one if Morgan was having a bad day), only McManus outscored him in the Championship and only Kilkenny outscored from play.

The point is you'd be expecting a free taker (good, decent or average) for a county who is a regular and in a team going deep into the Championship year on year to be topping the scoring charts. A lot in the media like to point to O'Connor's scoring prowess as testament to his standing as one of the best forwards in the game.

I think when you look behind that it falls down and it's not an anti Mayo thing either - I think the likes of Doherty, D O'Connor and A Moran would all have walked onto the Tyrone sides of that time and are/were all quality forwards. I don't think I could say the same with C O'Connor and I'd conversely say if Mayo had guys like McCurry, McAliskey or Lee Brennan available to them they'd probably have got much more regular action than they did with Tyrone and if they had been handed the free taking responsibilities I'd fancy them to have the scoring records O'Connor has in that Mayo team.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: From the Bunker on June 21, 2020, 01:56:35 PM
This will be Cillians 10th year as a Senior Mayo footballer. He is 28! He contributed greatly to Mayo being a top force during that time. Most people judge Cillian on his performances against Dublin. Their the ones that are always remembered. And I think he did ok considering that that Dublin group will go down as the greatest in Gaelic football ever! To be beaten so narrowly by such a talented team with so many advantages is no shame. That they kept trying despite all those knocks.

I've never heard anyone from Mayo say Cillian was a world beater. We know his limitations and we know his strengths. He has been a good servant.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 21, 2020, 07:26:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 21, 2020, 01:22:22 PM
Quote from: mouview on June 21, 2020, 11:15:41 AM
Scored a great clutch-point from play to send the 2017 final to a replay.

I'd say three or four years ago you could have made a point of carrying him for his free taking duties, I think his success rate has plummeted badly over the past 3 or 4 seasons. The vast majority of his frees though are probably fairly central inside thirty metres, you'd be expecting any decent free taker to be hitting 90% of those.

I look at someone like McAliskey for Tyrone who I would regard as a good player but he's been in and out of the Tyrone team, he can be a little inconsistent but on the top of his game I'd take him over Cillian O'Connor on the top of his game anyday, same for McCurry. The one season where McAliskey was a regular in the Tyrone side and trusted with the free taking duties (mainly only the frees from the left and the odd long range one if Morgan was having a bad day), only McManus outscored him in the Championship and only Kilkenny outscored from play.

The point is you'd be expecting a free taker (good, decent or average) for a county who is a regular and in a team going deep into the Championship year on year to be topping the scoring charts. A lot in the media like to point to O'Connor's scoring prowess as testament to his standing as one of the best forwards in the game.

I think when you look behind that it falls down and it's not an anti Mayo thing either - I think the likes of Doherty, D O'Connor and A Moran would all have walked onto the Tyrone sides of that time and are/were all quality forwards. I don't think I could say the same with C O'Connor and I'd conversely say if Mayo had guys like McCurry, McAliskey or Lee Brennan available to them they'd probably have got much more regular action than they did with Tyrone and if they had been handed the free taking responsibilities I'd fancy them to have the scoring records O'Connor has in that Mayo team.

When Mayo played Tyrone in the 2016 quarter final we got a good contrast between Cillian O'Connor, McCurry and McAliskey.

Again, I don't see anyone in the media saying Cillian is one of the best forwards in the game. Not in the same way they talk about McManus, Clifford, con OCallaghan, Shane Walsh and others. They do talk about his importance to the team, which is undeniable. It's no coincidence the improvement mayo made in 2011 after his debut. A consistent high scoring forward will do that. He actually had the same effect on Ballintubber since 2010. They've won 5 mayo championships despite not having any previously.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 21, 2020, 09:56:12 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 21, 2020, 07:26:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 21, 2020, 01:22:22 PM
Quote from: mouview on June 21, 2020, 11:15:41 AM
Scored a great clutch-point from play to send the 2017 final to a replay.

I'd say three or four years ago you could have made a point of carrying him for his free taking duties, I think his success rate has plummeted badly over the past 3 or 4 seasons. The vast majority of his frees though are probably fairly central inside thirty metres, you'd be expecting any decent free taker to be hitting 90% of those.

I look at someone like McAliskey for Tyrone who I would regard as a good player but he's been in and out of the Tyrone team, he can be a little inconsistent but on the top of his game I'd take him over Cillian O'Connor on the top of his game anyday, same for McCurry. The one season where McAliskey was a regular in the Tyrone side and trusted with the free taking duties (mainly only the frees from the left and the odd long range one if Morgan was having a bad day), only McManus outscored him in the Championship and only Kilkenny outscored from play.

The point is you'd be expecting a free taker (good, decent or average) for a county who is a regular and in a team going deep into the Championship year on year to be topping the scoring charts. A lot in the media like to point to O'Connor's scoring prowess as testament to his standing as one of the best forwards in the game.

I think when you look behind that it falls down and it's not an anti Mayo thing either - I think the likes of Doherty, D O'Connor and A Moran would all have walked onto the Tyrone sides of that time and are/were all quality forwards. I don't think I could say the same with C O'Connor and I'd conversely say if Mayo had guys like McCurry, McAliskey or Lee Brennan available to them they'd probably have got much more regular action than they did with Tyrone and if they had been handed the free taking responsibilities I'd fancy them to have the scoring records O'Connor has in that Mayo team.

When Mayo played Tyrone in the 2016 quarter final we got a good contrast between Cillian O'Connor, McCurry and McAliskey.

Again, I don't see anyone in the media saying Cillian is one of the best forwards in the game. Not in the same way they talk about McManus, Clifford, con OCallaghan, Shane Walsh and others. They do talk about his importance to the team, which is undeniable. It's no coincidence the improvement mayo made in 2011 after his debut. A consistent high scoring forward will do that. He actually had the same effect on Ballintubber since 2010. They've won 5 mayo championships despite not having any previously.

Did we?

I think O'Connor played on a better team than McCurry and McAliskey. Both McCurry and McAliskey would come in for a fair degree of criticism with Tyrone, it's probably fair enough too, they haven't really done it when its mattered but Mayo have been a fair bit better than Tyrone in that time, they've probably played a style of football than allows their inside forwards much more freedom to play and score and I think I'd still have both over O'Connor but I'd gladly have swapped some of our defenders, midfielders and half forwards for the main men in that Mayo team over the past decade.


I don't understand why Mayo people get so defensive when people criticise O'Connor, it's legitimate criticism - he gets a big write up from the pundits and journalists but I think he would really struggle to hold down a regular spot on any of the other top county teams - it is usually lazy commentary from pundits looking at the scoring chart. People will pop up with the "don't knock free takers line" but the stats don't say that O'Connor is anything better than a decent free taker in any case.

He gets far more plaudits for Mayo than guys like Doherty, McLoughlin and his brother get from the national media and GAA commentators and for me he contributes not nearly as much as they do.

For a forward he hasn't really developed his game, for a big enough guy he's not great in the air, he's pretty poor off his left side, he's slow and his movement is not up too much, I've seen him live a few times, he doesn't show for the ball. He's a good finisher, he's a grafter and he's willing to cross the line but I just find him fairly limited as a footballer.

He's a bit like the Kris Boyd of gaelic footballers for me, I'm not saying this out of any dislike for the guy or Mayo - I'm giving my honest appraisal of him. He played in an excellent side and has benefited greatly from it.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on June 21, 2020, 11:10:00 PM
He's the top scorer in the history of the championship.

He averages 6.8 points per game.

The only player in the top 25 with a better scoring average is Matt Connor (7.0).

To put this in context, dead ball specialist, free scoring scoring machines of the back door era like Padraig Joyce (4.0), Paddy Bradley (5 . 8), Conor McManus (5.3), Dean Rock (5.4) and Oisin McConville (4.4) fall well short of him, with comparable appearances.

The only player in the top 25 all time scorers with more goals than him is Mikey Sheehy.

He's has scored 36 points in 5 All Ireland finals (including a really).

————

Statistically speaking he is the single greatest scoring forward of all time.

Just to repeat that he's averaged over 7 points a game in AI finals.

This is not a flat track bully.

His record is extraordinary.

——

Comparing him to workhorse half forwards like Doherty, McLaughlin and his brother is utterly pointless. Why not compare him to Chris Barrett while you're at it?

Mentioning him the same breath as players like McAliskey and McCurry, who each have struggled to make a mediocre Tyrone side because they simply don't have the gears to play top flight senior championship football is bizarre. It might even be bordering on retarded.

——-

The analysis that reopened this thread is inherently flawed because regardless of who he has played against, for the best part of a decade now, he has rattled up scores.

Look at the top 25 scorers in the history of championship football. It's a who's who of scoring talent. And there, plum at the top of them is O'Connor.

If you genuinely believe that an average player or an average free taker could do that, then you need a zip placed on your mouth and sticky tape put on your fingers.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on June 21, 2020, 11:19:39 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 21, 2020, 11:10:00 PM
He's the top scorer in the history of the championship.

He averages 6.8 points per game.

The only player in the top 25 with a better scoring average is Matt Connor (7.0).

To put this in context, dead ball specialist, free scoring scoring machines of the back door era like Padraig Joyce (4.0), Paddy Bradley (5 . 8), Conor McManus (5.3), Dean Rock (5.4) and Oisin McConville (4.4) fall well short of him, with comparable appearances.

The only player in the top 25 all time scorers with more goals than him is Mikey Sheehy.

He's has scored 36 points in 5 All Ireland finals (including a really).

————

Statistically speaking he is the single greatest scoring forward of all time.

Just to repeat that he's averaged over 7 points a game in AI finals.

This is not a flat track bully.

His record is extraordinary.

——

Comparing him to workhorse half forwards like Doherty, McLaughlin and his brother is utterly pointless. Why not compare him to Chris Barrett while you're at it?

Mentioning him the same breath as players like McAliskey and McCurry, who each have struggled to make a mediocre Tyrone side because they simply don't have the gears to play top flight senior championship football is bizarre. It might even be bordering on retarded.

——-

The analysis that reopened this thread is inherently flawed because regardless of who he has played against, for the best part of a decade now, he has rattled up scores.

Look at the top 25 scorers in the history of championship football. It's a who's who of scoring talent. And there, plum at the top of them is O'Connor.

If you genuinely believe that an average player or an average free taker could do that, then you need a zip placed on your mouth and sticky tape put on your fingers.


Ok Cillian
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on June 21, 2020, 11:23:20 PM
Quality response.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 12:20:04 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 21, 2020, 09:56:12 PM
Did we?

I think O'Connor played on a better team than McCurry and McAliskey. Both McCurry and McAliskey would come in for a fair degree of criticism with Tyrone, it's probably fair enough too, they haven't really done it when its mattered but Mayo have been a fair bit better than Tyrone in that time, they've probably played a style of football than allows their inside forwards much more freedom to play and score and I think I'd still have both over O'Connor but I'd gladly have swapped some of our defenders, midfielders and half forwards for the main men in that Mayo team over the past decade.

I don't understand why Mayo people get so defensive when people criticise O'Connor, it's legitimate criticism - he gets a big write up from the pundits and journalists but I think he would really struggle to hold down a regular spot on any of the other top county teams - it is usually lazy commentary from pundits looking at the scoring chart. People will pop up with the "don't knock free takers line" but the stats don't say that O'Connor is anything better than a decent free taker in any case.

He gets far more plaudits for Mayo than guys like Doherty, McLoughlin and his brother get from the national media and GAA commentators and for me he contributes not nearly as much as they do.

Yes we did. Tyrone and Mayo were very evenly matched in that game as the scoreline would suggest. An obvious place where Mayo were better was the full forward line. Cillian scored 7 points, 3 from play, in a low scoring game. Neither mcurry or mcaliskey scored from play.

I get defensive when people like you throw out the overrated tag. Cillian only has 1 all star, the same amount as Michael quinlivan and Ian Burke. In no way does that make him overrated FFS.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 12:28:41 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 21, 2020, 11:10:00 PM
He's the top scorer in the history of the championship.

He averages 6.8 points per game.

The only player in the top 25 with a better scoring average is Matt Connor (7.0).

To put this in context, dead ball specialist, free scoring scoring machines of the back door era like Padraig Joyce (4.0), Paddy Bradley (5 . 8), Conor McManus (5.3), Dean Rock (5.4) and Oisin McConville (4.4) fall well short of him, with comparable appearances.

The only player in the top 25 all time scorers with more goals than him is Mikey Sheehy.

He's has scored 36 points in 5 All Ireland finals (including a really).

————

Statistically speaking he is the single greatest scoring forward of all time.

Just to repeat that he's averaged over 7 points a game in AI finals.

This is not a flat track bully.

His record is extraordinary.

——

Comparing him to workhorse half forwards like Doherty, McLaughlin and his brother is utterly pointless. Why not compare him to Chris Barrett while you're at it?

Mentioning him the same breath as players like McAliskey and McCurry, who each have struggled to make a mediocre Tyrone side because they simply don't have the gears to play top flight senior championship football is bizarre. It might even be bordering on retarded.

——-

The analysis that reopened this thread is inherently flawed because regardless of who he has played against, for the best part of a decade now, he has rattled up scores.

Look at the top 25 scorers in the history of championship football. It's a who's who of scoring talent. And there, plum at the top of them is O'Connor.

If you genuinely believe that an average player or an average free taker could do that, then you need a zip placed on your mouth and sticky tape put on your fingers.

Handy frees for one of the top 4 county teams over the past decade.

I don't think I've ever watched one Mayo game in Championship where O'Connor was close to being the best Mayo player on display. His most high profile game was probably the one where Mayo hammered Donegal and he got a hat trick but my only abiding memory of that game is Mayo absolutely ripping Dongeal to shreds in the middle of the pitch, the two O'Sheas made absolute mincemeat out of a Donegal side suffering from a post AI hangover.

AOS gets a lot of flak for a lot of non shows in big games, he's disappointed for Mayo on the whole I think but he has also had big displays too where he has carried Mayo over the line. The guys like Keegan, Higgins, Boyle, Moran, Durcan and Diarmuid O'Connor have all been leading lights for Mayo - you've the unsung heroes like Doherty, Barrett, McLoughlin, Parsons, SOS etc who have delivered some mammoth displays for Mayo,

Cillian O'Connor as never stood out for me watching Mayo in many big Championship games as the guy who is leading the charge, he might be dominating the scoreboard, he might come up with a big score now and again but he's never been one of those players who has dominated the game or one of those players who you Mayo are trying to hit again and again.

The sort of homage you pay there is the exact reason I think O'Connor is ridiculously overrated, for that kind of a build up, I'm expecting a top forward. He's a decent free taker but he is third tier from open play.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 12:41:10 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 12:20:04 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 21, 2020, 09:56:12 PM
Did we?

I think O'Connor played on a better team than McCurry and McAliskey. Both McCurry and McAliskey would come in for a fair degree of criticism with Tyrone, it's probably fair enough too, they haven't really done it when its mattered but Mayo have been a fair bit better than Tyrone in that time, they've probably played a style of football than allows their inside forwards much more freedom to play and score and I think I'd still have both over O'Connor but I'd gladly have swapped some of our defenders, midfielders and half forwards for the main men in that Mayo team over the past decade.

I don't understand why Mayo people get so defensive when people criticise O'Connor, it's legitimate criticism - he gets a big write up from the pundits and journalists but I think he would really struggle to hold down a regular spot on any of the other top county teams - it is usually lazy commentary from pundits looking at the scoring chart. People will pop up with the "don't knock free takers line" but the stats don't say that O'Connor is anything better than a decent free taker in any case.

He gets far more plaudits for Mayo than guys like Doherty, McLoughlin and his brother get from the national media and GAA commentators and for me he contributes not nearly as much as they do.

Yes we did. Tyrone and Mayo were very evenly matched in that game as the scoreline would suggest. An obvious place where Mayo were better was the full forward line. Cillian scored 7 points, 3 from play, in a low scoring game. Neither mcurry or mcaliskey scored from play.

I get defensive when people like you throw out the overrated tag. Cillian only has 1 all star, the same amount as Michael quinlivan and Ian Burke. In no way does that make him overrated FFS.

An even game maybe but I don't think there's any doubt that both sides played completely contrasting styles of football and Tyrone's inside men struggled to survive in that manner. McCurry started that game on the bench and was only introduced in the past ten minutes. It's a sample of one game you're choosing too, if McCurry or McAliskey were in that Mayo team linking up with Andy Moran and feeding off the dominance Mayo tend to have on teams in the middle of the pitch with the ball being moved in fast then I think they'd excel. Would O'Connor have been able to play in a one man full forward line like McAliskey did in 2018?

O'Connor also has more all stars than Doherty and McLoughlin, he's not a better player than them. Ian Burke's All Star award was a complete joke, I'd have Quinlavin over O'Connor any day of a wet week too.

Scoring records don't tell you a whole lot really and that seems to be the start and finish of the case for O'Connor. I've seen him live in action a few times - he's not a player who stands out, he's not a player the opposition managers focus on either.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 12:46:27 AM
I'm not paying any homage.

The raw numbers are.

I'm looking forward to you next act, where you'll tell us that the only reason Alan Shearer is the highest scorer in PL history is because he played for free flowing Newcastle, and that Steffen Iversen and Chris Armstrong would have done the same. Or that had Paddy Wallace been across the water then he would have scored all the points that Wilkinson scored, as England were so dominant. Or that the Lakers could have swapped Kareem Abdul Jabbar for some non entity from the Atlanta Hawks, and been just as successful.

Enda Varley, Alan Freeman, Evan Regan, Mike Conroy, Conor Mortimer. Just off the top of my head. That's the kind of player at the McAliskey/McCurry level.

The reason they don't average 6.8 points a game in championship football is because they're not as good at scoring as COC is. Nobody is. He's basically the reason why Mayo went from being trampled in every final they played, to being there right to the end.

Show some respect for that.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 01:33:22 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 12:41:10 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 12:20:04 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 21, 2020, 09:56:12 PM
Did we?

I think O'Connor played on a better team than McCurry and McAliskey. Both McCurry and McAliskey would come in for a fair degree of criticism with Tyrone, it's probably fair enough too, they haven't really done it when its mattered but Mayo have been a fair bit better than Tyrone in that time, they've probably played a style of football than allows their inside forwards much more freedom to play and score and I think I'd still have both over O'Connor but I'd gladly have swapped some of our defenders, midfielders and half forwards for the main men in that Mayo team over the past decade.

I don't understand why Mayo people get so defensive when people criticise O'Connor, it's legitimate criticism - he gets a big write up from the pundits and journalists but I think he would really struggle to hold down a regular spot on any of the other top county teams - it is usually lazy commentary from pundits looking at the scoring chart. People will pop up with the "don't knock free takers line" but the stats don't say that O'Connor is anything better than a decent free taker in any case.

He gets far more plaudits for Mayo than guys like Doherty, McLoughlin and his brother get from the national media and GAA commentators and for me he contributes not nearly as much as they do.

Yes we did. Tyrone and Mayo were very evenly matched in that game as the scoreline would suggest. An obvious place where Mayo were better was the full forward line. Cillian scored 7 points, 3 from play, in a low scoring game. Neither mcurry or mcaliskey scored from play.

I get defensive when people like you throw out the overrated tag. Cillian only has 1 all star, the same amount as Michael quinlivan and Ian Burke. In no way does that make him overrated FFS.

An even game maybe but I don't think there's any doubt that both sides played completely contrasting styles of football and Tyrone's inside men struggled to survive in that manner. McCurry started that game on the bench and was only introduced in the past ten minutes. It's a sample of one game you're choosing too, if McCurry or McAliskey were in that Mayo team linking up with Andy Moran and feeding off the dominance Mayo tend to have on teams in the middle of the pitch with the ball being moved in fast then I think they'd excel. Would O'Connor have been able to play in a one man full forward line like McAliskey did in 2018?

O'Connor also has more all stars than Doherty and McLoughlin, he's not a better player than them. Ian Burke's All Star award was a complete joke, I'd have Quinlavin over O'Connor any day of a wet week too.

Scoring records don't tell you a whole lot really and that seems to be the start and finish of the case for O'Connor. I've seen him live in action a few times - he's not a player who stands out, he's not a player the opposition managers focus on either.

A sample of 1 game? LOL. Mccurry and mcaliskey are the same age as Cillian more or less. The difference in their intercounty records is night and day.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 01:41:47 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 12:28:41 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 21, 2020, 11:10:00 PM
He's the top scorer in the history of the championship.

He averages 6.8 points per game.

The only player in the top 25 with a better scoring average is Matt Connor (7.0).

To put this in context, dead ball specialist, free scoring scoring machines of the back door era like Padraig Joyce (4.0), Paddy Bradley (5 . 8), Conor McManus (5.3), Dean Rock (5.4) and Oisin McConville (4.4) fall well short of him, with comparable appearances.

The only player in the top 25 all time scorers with more goals than him is Mikey Sheehy.

He's has scored 36 points in 5 All Ireland finals (including a really).

————

Statistically speaking he is the single greatest scoring forward of all time.

Just to repeat that he's averaged over 7 points a game in AI finals.

This is not a flat track bully.

His record is extraordinary.

——

Comparing him to workhorse half forwards like Doherty, McLaughlin and his brother is utterly pointless. Why not compare him to Chris Barrett while you're at it?

Mentioning him the same breath as players like McAliskey and McCurry, who each have struggled to make a mediocre Tyrone side because they simply don't have the gears to play top flight senior championship football is bizarre. It might even be bordering on retarded.

——-

The analysis that reopened this thread is inherently flawed because regardless of who he has played against, for the best part of a decade now, he has rattled up scores.

Look at the top 25 scorers in the history of championship football. It's a who's who of scoring talent. And there, plum at the top of them is O'Connor.

If you genuinely believe that an average player or an average free taker could do that, then you need a zip placed on your mouth and sticky tape put on your fingers.

Handy frees for one of the top 4 county teams over the past decade.

I don't think I've ever watched one Mayo game in Championship where O'Connor was close to being the best Mayo player on display. His most high profile game was probably the one where Mayo hammered Donegal and he got a hat trick but my only abiding memory of that game is Mayo absolutely ripping Dongeal to shreds in the middle of the pitch, the two O'Sheas made absolute mincemeat out of a Donegal side suffering from a post AI hangover.

AOS gets a lot of flak for a lot of non shows in big games, he's disappointed for Mayo on the whole I think but he has also had big displays too where he has carried Mayo over the line. The guys like Keegan, Higgins, Boyle, Moran, Durcan and Diarmuid O'Connor have all been leading lights for Mayo - you've the unsung heroes like Doherty, Barrett, McLoughlin, Parsons, SOS etc who have delivered some mammoth displays for Mayo,

Cillian O'Connor as never stood out for me watching Mayo in many big Championship games as the guy who is leading the charge, he might be dominating the scoreboard, he might come up with a big score now and again but he's never been one of those players who has dominated the game or one of those players who you Mayo are trying to hit again and again.

The sort of homage you pay there is the exact reason I think O'Connor is ridiculously overrated, for that kind of a build up, I'm expecting a top forward. He's a decent free taker but he is third tier from open play.

This is getting ridiculous. Mayo hammered Donegal in that game BECAUSE Cillian scored a hat trick. If he didn't score 3 goals in an all Ireland quarter final we wouldn't have won by that much. No doubt you'll try say it was all down to us dominating possession but I've never seen a Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone forward do that and they've been involved in plenty of hammerings the last few years.

Cillian is a poacher, as he showed with the goal against Donegal last year in the super 8s. But maybe you think any intercounty forward could come in and pick up his 7 points per game average.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Lar Naparka on June 22, 2020, 02:23:43 AM
Back in his YPOTY days, I thought O'Connor was the most exciting Mayo prospect in years. He seemed capable of reading a game better than many far more senior to him; he could appear to be in the right place at the right time and while some would put this down to luck, I felt it was because of his superb anticipation and timing. I always felt he was a bit slow off the mark and never made the grade as a fielder but he was a natural leader of men; it was obvious that others played more positively whenever he was on the field. He could, and still can, capitalise on  a half chance better than anyone else I know.
Dara Ó'Sé said more or less that same after the '13 final. Saying Mayo had every reason to feel confident of future success with the likes of him around. He also said Cillian was the most superbly conditioned individual he had seen in a long time.
That was back then, now is a different country.
I don't recall him having a name for petulance back then, maybe I'm wrong and my memory can be notoriously flaky but nowadays you will never find anyone standing up for his sportsmanship and general quality of play than committed Mayo fans.
In my opinion, all GAA players are amateurs and I'd go easy on the abuse if a player has a bad day or even an extended run of sub- par performances. Sickness, injury, stress and pressure of all types from all angles can affect any player.
I know Cillian took THAT missed free in the dying minutes oof the '17 final very badly and felt he had let his county down. Some Mayo club players told me it took the poor fella months to recover his composure which was indeed a pity.
He had done his best and no one could have expected more from him.
But his conduct over the last few seasons has pissed me off a lot.
The elbows and trips and general bad mouthing have become his stock in trade and if anyone wonders why he has no fans outside of Mayo, you don't have too far to look for the reason.
I was at the FBD game two years ago; the one where he got a red card. He caught my attention early on and, in perfect honesty,  he should have gotten his marching orders before the ref took action.
Players with a name for tetchiness can be a liability to any team. Diarmuid Connolly lost the rag in a meaningless game against Carlow (I think) and Jim Gavin gave him a good bollicking for his troubles. Gavin was prepared to let him sulk for as long as it took, before he came back into the reckoning.
IMO, Diarmuid contributed far more from play than Cillian at his best, but the manager didn't tolerate handbagging from any of his  players, and rightly so.
There is no point in telling me about O'Connor's superb scoring returns. He is as likely to score from play as any other Mayo forward but the majority of his score come from frees.
Maurice Sheridan scored more than anyone else during John Maughan's time in the '90s but he was lucky to hold down a place. He was a gifted free taker but his contribution from play was minimal.
Right now, Cillian's last few years saw his prodigious talent being wasted to a great degree.  However, I'm told he is really looking forward to the resumption of play and one can only home his general attitude has changed but only time will tell....
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 09:45:05 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 01:33:22 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 12:41:10 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 12:20:04 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 21, 2020, 09:56:12 PM
Did we?

I think O'Connor played on a better team than McCurry and McAliskey. Both McCurry and McAliskey would come in for a fair degree of criticism with Tyrone, it's probably fair enough too, they haven't really done it when its mattered but Mayo have been a fair bit better than Tyrone in that time, they've probably played a style of football than allows their inside forwards much more freedom to play and score and I think I'd still have both over O'Connor but I'd gladly have swapped some of our defenders, midfielders and half forwards for the main men in that Mayo team over the past decade.

I don't understand why Mayo people get so defensive when people criticise O'Connor, it's legitimate criticism - he gets a big write up from the pundits and journalists but I think he would really struggle to hold down a regular spot on any of the other top county teams - it is usually lazy commentary from pundits looking at the scoring chart. People will pop up with the "don't knock free takers line" but the stats don't say that O'Connor is anything better than a decent free taker in any case.

He gets far more plaudits for Mayo than guys like Doherty, McLoughlin and his brother get from the national media and GAA commentators and for me he contributes not nearly as much as they do.

Yes we did. Tyrone and Mayo were very evenly matched in that game as the scoreline would suggest. An obvious place where Mayo were better was the full forward line. Cillian scored 7 points, 3 from play, in a low scoring game. Neither mcurry or mcaliskey scored from play.

I get defensive when people like you throw out the overrated tag. Cillian only has 1 all star, the same amount as Michael quinlivan and Ian Burke. In no way does that make him overrated FFS.

An even game maybe but I don't think there's any doubt that both sides played completely contrasting styles of football and Tyrone's inside men struggled to survive in that manner. McCurry started that game on the bench and was only introduced in the past ten minutes. It's a sample of one game you're choosing too, if McCurry or McAliskey were in that Mayo team linking up with Andy Moran and feeding off the dominance Mayo tend to have on teams in the middle of the pitch with the ball being moved in fast then I think they'd excel. Would O'Connor have been able to play in a one man full forward line like McAliskey did in 2018?

O'Connor also has more all stars than Doherty and McLoughlin, he's not a better player than them. Ian Burke's All Star award was a complete joke, I'd have Quinlavin over O'Connor any day of a wet week too.

Scoring records don't tell you a whole lot really and that seems to be the start and finish of the case for O'Connor. I've seen him live in action a few times - he's not a player who stands out, he's not a player the opposition managers focus on either.

A sample of 1 game? LOL. Mccurry and mcaliskey are the same age as Cillian more or less. The difference in their intercounty records is night and day.

Yes, you chose the Tyrone Mayo clash in 2016, that's one game.

O'Connor plays in a team and a system which allows far more freedom and good ball for their inside forwards so it's not exactly like for like. I think O'Connor would struggle to hold down a starting spot in most of the other top counties around that time.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 10:01:34 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 01:41:47 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 12:28:41 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 21, 2020, 11:10:00 PM
He's the top scorer in the history of the championship.

He averages 6.8 points per game.

The only player in the top 25 with a better scoring average is Matt Connor (7.0).

To put this in context, dead ball specialist, free scoring scoring machines of the back door era like Padraig Joyce (4.0), Paddy Bradley (5 . 8), Conor McManus (5.3), Dean Rock (5.4) and Oisin McConville (4.4) fall well short of him, with comparable appearances.

The only player in the top 25 all time scorers with more goals than him is Mikey Sheehy.

He's has scored 36 points in 5 All Ireland finals (including a really).

————

Statistically speaking he is the single greatest scoring forward of all time.

Just to repeat that he's averaged over 7 points a game in AI finals.

This is not a flat track bully.

His record is extraordinary.

——

Comparing him to workhorse half forwards like Doherty, McLaughlin and his brother is utterly pointless. Why not compare him to Chris Barrett while you're at it?

Mentioning him the same breath as players like McAliskey and McCurry, who each have struggled to make a mediocre Tyrone side because they simply don't have the gears to play top flight senior championship football is bizarre. It might even be bordering on retarded.

——-

The analysis that reopened this thread is inherently flawed because regardless of who he has played against, for the best part of a decade now, he has rattled up scores.

Look at the top 25 scorers in the history of championship football. It's a who's who of scoring talent. And there, plum at the top of them is O'Connor.

If you genuinely believe that an average player or an average free taker could do that, then you need a zip placed on your mouth and sticky tape put on your fingers.

Handy frees for one of the top 4 county teams over the past decade.

I don't think I've ever watched one Mayo game in Championship where O'Connor was close to being the best Mayo player on display. His most high profile game was probably the one where Mayo hammered Donegal and he got a hat trick but my only abiding memory of that game is Mayo absolutely ripping Dongeal to shreds in the middle of the pitch, the two O'Sheas made absolute mincemeat out of a Donegal side suffering from a post AI hangover.

AOS gets a lot of flak for a lot of non shows in big games, he's disappointed for Mayo on the whole I think but he has also had big displays too where he has carried Mayo over the line. The guys like Keegan, Higgins, Boyle, Moran, Durcan and Diarmuid O'Connor have all been leading lights for Mayo - you've the unsung heroes like Doherty, Barrett, McLoughlin, Parsons, SOS etc who have delivered some mammoth displays for Mayo,

Cillian O'Connor as never stood out for me watching Mayo in many big Championship games as the guy who is leading the charge, he might be dominating the scoreboard, he might come up with a big score now and again but he's never been one of those players who has dominated the game or one of those players who you Mayo are trying to hit again and again.

The sort of homage you pay there is the exact reason I think O'Connor is ridiculously overrated, for that kind of a build up, I'm expecting a top forward. He's a decent free taker but he is third tier from open play.

This is getting ridiculous. Mayo hammered Donegal in that game BECAUSE Cillian scored a hat trick. If he didn't score 3 goals in an all Ireland quarter final we wouldn't have won by that much. No doubt you'll try say it was all down to us dominating possession but I've never seen a Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone forward do that and they've been involved in plenty of hammerings the last few years.

Cillian is a poacher, as he showed with the goal against Donegal last year in the super 8s. But maybe you think any intercounty forward could come in and pick up his 7 points per game average.

I think most decent county forward would hit what O'Connor does for Mayo if they were trusted with the free taking and penalty taking duties in that Mayo side O'Connor has played in.

Mayo hammered Donegal in 2013 because they destroyed them all over the pitch, Donegal did not want or could not match the Mayo hunger, intensity and tempo and were beaten to a pulp in every section - with or without O'Connor they were winning that game comfortably, you can argue the gap might have been tighter if O'Connor wasn't there but what does that matter. O'Connor can finish, he will put a shift in but he has very distinct limitations. If his side are very much on top then he will get the chances with the amount of ball that goes in, he will get the space with the amount of runners and players Mayo commit forward.

He can finish, he will put a shift in for you and he's a fairly steady free taker but his movement, his lack of pace and ball winning ability and his reluctance off his left side are what hold him back. His scoring stats simply would not be replicated in he played in any other county team.

As I've said, I've never watched Mayo in Championship and thought O'Connor is the man for them, I've see guys like Keegan, Boyle, Barrett, Parsons, AOS, Doherty, DOC, Moran and McLoughlin all be that player at some point but not O'Connor.

Lazy analysis then sees someone focus on the fact that O'Connor scored 1-09 in the game (probably 0-08 from frees) and they will pick him out as the star Mayo man.

O'Connor just does not stand out in that Mayo team, it's as simple as that.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

I do know that Tyrone lack a top class inside forward or did until McShane arrived on the scene last year. McCurry and McAliskey blow hot and cold but are very dangerous players in the right system and when they're firing - more dangerous than O'Connor for me personally but none of them are top level. The difference is that between 2011-present I think Mayo have been a lot strong from 1-12 than Tyrone have, you could say they have been stronger from 13-15 too but that would probably be down solely to Andy Moran too.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 11:44:11 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

Well he played against a Jim McGuiness managed Donegal in 2013 and scored a hat trick. McManus played the same Donegal team a few weeks previous and didn't get near that.

Tyrone were also playing a full blanket defence in 2016 when Cillian did really well. I think he's also got 5 goals in all Ireland semi-finals against Kerry down the years. But maybe that's all down to Keegan and Higgins.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 12:26:48 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 11:44:11 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

Well he played against a Jim McGuiness managed Donegal in 2013 and scored a hat trick. McManus played the same Donegal team a few weeks previous and didn't get near that.

Tyrone were also playing a full blanket defence in 2016 when Cillian did really well. I think he's also got 5 goals in all Ireland semi-finals against Kerry down the years. But maybe that's all down to Keegan and Higgins.

See now you're just talking nonsense.

Mayo absolutely steamrolled Donegal in that game, absolutely devoured them in the middle of the pitch. Mayo were running through the middle with threes and fours everywhere walking the ball into the net.

How many of those goals against Kerry were penalties?

Higgins, Boyle, Keegan, Doherty, the O'Sheas, Diarmuid O'Connor Barrett, Parsons, McLoughlin, Moran, Doherty. There's many brilliant players in that Mayo team, for me O'Connor always stood out as one of the weak links, in the big games he always stood out as a player they needed much more from in the general play of the game.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 01:12:21 PM
I'm talking nonsense? Is there an asterisk beside all scoring stats when the game turns into a rout? What about Con O'Callaghan's 2 goals against us last summer.. We didn't show up in the 2nd half so maybe they shouldn't count.

I'm sure you can look up how many were penalties, does the fact Cillian won the penalty himself make a difference?

Several of those players you name have been in and out of the team the last 10 years, Cillian hasn't. Also, you're going on as if Mayo dominate every team we play and get let down by Cillian. That's clearly rubbish as Fenton and David Moran always play well against us. I seem to remember Paul Conroy winning man of the match against us recently too.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: BennyCake on June 22, 2020, 02:21:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 12:26:48 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 11:44:11 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

Well he played against a Jim McGuiness managed Donegal in 2013 and scored a hat trick. McManus played the same Donegal team a few weeks previous and didn't get near that.

Tyrone were also playing a full blanket defence in 2016 when Cillian did really well. I think he's also got 5 goals in all Ireland semi-finals against Kerry down the years. But maybe that's all down to Keegan and Higgins.

See now you're just talking nonsense.

Mayo absolutely steamrolled Donegal in that game, absolutely devoured them in the middle of the pitch. Mayo were running through the middle with threes and fours everywhere walking the ball into the net.

How many of those goals against Kerry were penalties?

Higgins, Boyle, Keegan, Doherty, the O'Sheas, Diarmuid O'Connor Barrett, Parsons, McLoughlin, Moran, Doherty. There's many brilliant players in that Mayo team, for me O'Connor always stood out as one of the weak links, in the big games he always stood out as a player they needed much more from in the general play of the game.

Yeah I agree.

He's a red card waiting to happen every game. Such a frustrating player.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on June 22, 2020, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 22, 2020, 02:21:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 12:26:48 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 11:44:11 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
You’re absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He’s only played 60-odd championship games. It’s not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone’s blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven’t had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

Well he played against a Jim McGuiness managed Donegal in 2013 and scored a hat trick. McManus played the same Donegal team a few weeks previous and didn't get near that.

Tyrone were also playing a full blanket defence in 2016 when Cillian did really well. I think he's also got 5 goals in all Ireland semi-finals against Kerry down the years. But maybe that's all down to Keegan and Higgins.

See now you're just talking nonsense.

Mayo absolutely steamrolled Donegal in that game, absolutely devoured them in the middle of the pitch. Mayo were running through the middle with threes and fours everywhere walking the ball into the net.

How many of those goals against Kerry were penalties?

Higgins, Boyle, Keegan, Doherty, the O'Sheas, Diarmuid O'Connor Barrett, Parsons, McLoughlin, Moran, Doherty. There's many brilliant players in that Mayo team, for me O'Connor always stood out as one of the weak links, in the big games he always stood out as a player they needed much more from in the general play of the game.

Yeah I agree.

He’s a red card waiting to happen every game. Such a frustrating player.
Weak link my arse . hes the highest scoring player in championship football off all time.
that's more than Canavan Gooch Maurice fitz Padraic Joyce , Larry Tompkins both Rocks ,  Michal murphy   etc etc . you name him Cillian has scored more .
you letting you prejudice Cloud your Judgment a little methnks
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: joemamas on June 22, 2020, 03:12:27 PM
When you judge him you cannot forget that he played on a team that everyone pointed out were missing get two forwards, so in my opinion, he got so much extra attention because of that, and had to work even harder for his scores and frees that he was awarded.
Agree like most, he got cranky over the least three or four years.
Still will never diminish his total effort and sacrifice to the Mayo cause.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Estimator on June 22, 2020, 03:16:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

I do know that Tyrone lack a top class inside forward or did until McShane arrived on the scene last year. McCurry and McAliskey blow hot and cold but are very dangerous players in the right system and when they're firing - more dangerous than O'Connor for me personally but none of them are top level. The difference is that between 2011-present I think Mayo have been a lot strong from 1-12 than Tyrone have, you could say they have been stronger from 13-15 too but that would probably be down solely to Andy Moran too.

Just out of interest, what is McCurry's Championship total at present? Canavan has approx 210/220 points to his name.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: BennyCake on June 22, 2020, 03:45:17 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 22, 2020, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 22, 2020, 02:21:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 12:26:48 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 11:44:11 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

Well he played against a Jim McGuiness managed Donegal in 2013 and scored a hat trick. McManus played the same Donegal team a few weeks previous and didn't get near that.

Tyrone were also playing a full blanket defence in 2016 when Cillian did really well. I think he's also got 5 goals in all Ireland semi-finals against Kerry down the years. But maybe that's all down to Keegan and Higgins.

See now you're just talking nonsense.

Mayo absolutely steamrolled Donegal in that game, absolutely devoured them in the middle of the pitch. Mayo were running through the middle with threes and fours everywhere walking the ball into the net.

How many of those goals against Kerry were penalties?

Higgins, Boyle, Keegan, Doherty, the O'Sheas, Diarmuid O'Connor Barrett, Parsons, McLoughlin, Moran, Doherty. There's many brilliant players in that Mayo team, for me O'Connor always stood out as one of the weak links, in the big games he always stood out as a player they needed much more from in the general play of the game.

Yeah I agree.

He's a red card waiting to happen every game. Such a frustrating player.
Weak link my arse . hes the highest scoring player in championship football off all time.
that's more than Canavan Gooch Maurice fitz Padraic Joyce , Larry Tompkins both Rocks ,  Michal murphy   etc etc . you name him Cillian has scored more .
you letting you prejudice Cloud your Judgment a little methnks

He's still not half the player of any of those.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 06:00:40 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 22, 2020, 03:16:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

I do know that Tyrone lack a top class inside forward or did until McShane arrived on the scene last year. McCurry and McAliskey blow hot and cold but are very dangerous players in the right system and when they're firing - more dangerous than O'Connor for me personally but none of them are top level. The difference is that between 2011-present I think Mayo have been a lot strong from 1-12 than Tyrone have, you could say they have been stronger from 13-15 too but that would probably be down solely to Andy Moran too.

Just out of interest, what is McCurry's Championship total at present? Canavan has approx 210/220 points to his name.

Think it's 4-96 or something along those lines so he's effectively halfway there and 4 good seasons for him would effectively get him there, he's 27/28 now.

I think he would definitely be very close to that now if the likes of Bradley, Brennan etc hadn't came on the scene and he retained his free taking duties.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 06:17:58 PM
Quote from: joemamas on June 22, 2020, 03:12:27 PM
When you judge him you cannot forget that he played on a team that everyone pointed out were missing get two forwards, so in my opinion, he got so much extra attention because of that, and had to work even harder for his scores and frees that he was awarded.
Agree like most, he got cranky over the least three or four years.
Still will never diminish his total effort and sacrifice to the Mayo cause.

I don't think that's the case at all.

You look at who his marker was in a lot of those biggest games, it generally wasn't the go to man marker - that job was usually put on Moran, when O'Shea played inside he was double marked. You look at the attention guys like McManus, Murphy, McBrearty get. I never saw any team really singling O'Connor out as the dangerman.

He's a finisher no question but playing for a side like Mayo who at their peak played with such intensity and ferocity that they could get a huge stranglehold in the middle of the pitch, that would push men forward and have runners coming off the shoulder at every opportunity - it's easy to find that extra bit of space.

I had a look at the Donegal game in 2013 and 3 goals he scored.

The first goal probably shows his strengths the best, he won the ball back on the endline off the Donegal defender (potentially a foul) passed it outside to McLoughlin who weaved and dodged a couple of challenges before passing back inside to an unmarked O'Connor who finished nicely.

The second and third goals summed up why O'Connor has scored so much for Mayo. For the second goal Higgins plays a ball into O'Connor, Eamon McGee beats O'Connor to the ball but only palms it to Vaughan who runs in on goal with only Durcan to beat and slips the ball to O'Connor who is unmarked with McGee out of play and taps into an empty net.

The third comes after Moran skins his marker runs in on goal and shoots, Durcan stops the shot, the ball falls to O'Connor who drives home from 7 yards.

He deserves credit for the first goal but the second and third were merely profiting off the good work of others. He's a finisher but he's probably the one regular in that Mayo side who I'd have been looking for an awful lot more from in the big games.

He reminds me of Kris Boyd in that regard, you can't argue with his scoring record but he's not able to do it by himself, he needs it served on a plate.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 06:25:51 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 22, 2020, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 22, 2020, 02:21:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 12:26:48 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 11:44:11 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

Well he played against a Jim McGuiness managed Donegal in 2013 and scored a hat trick. McManus played the same Donegal team a few weeks previous and didn't get near that.

Tyrone were also playing a full blanket defence in 2016 when Cillian did really well. I think he's also got 5 goals in all Ireland semi-finals against Kerry down the years. But maybe that's all down to Keegan and Higgins.

See now you're just talking nonsense.

Mayo absolutely steamrolled Donegal in that game, absolutely devoured them in the middle of the pitch. Mayo were running through the middle with threes and fours everywhere walking the ball into the net.

How many of those goals against Kerry were penalties?

Higgins, Boyle, Keegan, Doherty, the O'Sheas, Diarmuid O'Connor Barrett, Parsons, McLoughlin, Moran, Doherty. There's many brilliant players in that Mayo team, for me O'Connor always stood out as one of the weak links, in the big games he always stood out as a player they needed much more from in the general play of the game.

Yeah I agree.

He's a red card waiting to happen every game. Such a frustrating player.
Weak link my arse . hes the highest scoring player in championship football off all time.
that's more than Canavan Gooch Maurice fitz Padraic Joyce , Larry Tompkins both Rocks ,  Michal murphy   etc etc . you name him Cillian has scored more .
you letting you prejudice Cloud your Judgment a little methnks

Kris Boyd scored more goals in Scottish football than Henrik Larsson.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 06:27:03 PM
Now he's analysing a game in which COC scored 3-4 against the reigning AI champions, as evidence of his weaknesses.

There's no reasoning with someone who could convince themselves that water flows uphill..

Over and out from me.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 06:27:03 PM
Now he's analysing a game in which COC scored 3-4 against the reigning AI champions, as evidence of his weaknesses.

There's no reasoning with someone who could convince themselves that water flows uphill..

Over and out from me.

I'm analysing it in the terms of people just hoisting his scoring record up without any context.

His scoring record is impressive but his performances have not really been so, it's lazy analysis to just point to his scoring record.

O'Connor might have scored 3-04 against the reigning All Ireland champions but he wasn't even the best Mayo player on the pitch.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: dublin7 on June 22, 2020, 06:48:04 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 22, 2020, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 22, 2020, 02:21:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 12:26:48 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 22, 2020, 11:44:11 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

Well he played against a Jim McGuiness managed Donegal in 2013 and scored a hat trick. McManus played the same Donegal team a few weeks previous and didn't get near that.

Tyrone were also playing a full blanket defence in 2016 when Cillian did really well. I think he's also got 5 goals in all Ireland semi-finals against Kerry down the years. But maybe that's all down to Keegan and Higgins.

See now you're just talking nonsense.

Mayo absolutely steamrolled Donegal in that game, absolutely devoured them in the middle of the pitch. Mayo were running through the middle with threes and fours everywhere walking the ball into the net.

How many of those goals against Kerry were penalties?

Higgins, Boyle, Keegan, Doherty, the O'Sheas, Diarmuid O'Connor Barrett, Parsons, McLoughlin, Moran, Doherty. There's many brilliant players in that Mayo team, for me O'Connor always stood out as one of the weak links, in the big games he always stood out as a player they needed much more from in the general play of the game.

Yeah I agree.

He's a red card waiting to happen every game. Such a frustrating player.
Weak link my arse . hes the highest scoring player in championship football off all time.
that's more than Canavan Gooch Maurice fitz Padraic Joyce , Larry Tompkins both Rocks ,  Michal murphy   etc etc . you name him Cillian has scored more .
you letting you prejudice Cloud your Judgment a little methnks

I think Lar summed up COC best a few pages back. Prolific as a youngster, but he's more of a threat with his elbows than his shooting boots the last few years.

COC has scored more than the players listed above by ros but they difference is the likes of Gooch, Michael Murphy, Brogans etc. could take over games, dominate and at times were unmarkable. He doesn't have the pace of Bernard Brogan or power of Michael Murphy to beat defenders so he can't dominate games like all the other top forwards
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on June 23, 2020, 03:09:35 PM
no but he out scores them all , time and time again. hes in no way a flash player .
and the hypothesis put forward that he just benefits from the work of others is probably the best complement you could pay him or any decent scoring forward
unlike Murphy who out around the middle of the field being an Average midfielder instead of being an excellent forward .

Scores win Games and he is the best in history at getting them  pre the current generation Mayos weakness was not getting the score any eegit
should have got when they probably had as stong an all round team.
Cillian is the Difference

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: dublin7 on June 23, 2020, 04:52:09 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 23, 2020, 03:09:35 PM
no but he out scores them all , time and time again. hes in no way a flash player .
and the hypothesis put forward that he just benefits from the work of others is probably the best complement you could pay him or any decent scoring forward
unlike Murphy who out around the middle of the field being an Average midfielder instead of being an excellent forward .

Scores win Games and he is the best in history at getting them  pre the current generation Mayos weakness was not getting the score any eegit
should have got when they probably had as stong an all round team.
Cillian is the Difference

Of course COC outscores them. He's been the regular Mayo free taker for years. It's very rare in a game at any level of football that the top scorer isn't the free taker, then expand that out over multiple seasons. Gooch didn't take frees for Kerry and while Brogan has taken frees at times for Dublin he's never had an extended run as the free taker. Donegal unfortunately for them don't have the luxury of leaving Michael Murphy in the forward line for a whole game. If they did his scoring stats would be even more impressive than they already are.

The best complement you can pay a scoring forward is that their performance was so good they were unmarkable. The likes of Gooch, Brogan, Joyce etc have had days were you could just launch the ball into them any old way and they'd find a way to put it over the bar.

I assume you mean the current Mayo team came close, but failed over the last few years because of a lack of scoring power. How many of those games against Dublin did they dominate in the 1st half on the pitch but failed to make their dominance count on the scoreboard?

Andy Moran was a difference maker in that Mayo forward line. He was the focal point of Mayo's attack and was picked up by Dublin's best man markers whenever they played the dubs. That will be the big loss for Mayo now. He was the leader of that forward line so they need someone to take over from him. COC as a senior player could take on that role if he could focus on just playing football rather than starting arguments with the opposition/officials all the time
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on June 24, 2020, 12:14:16 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 54 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.
In other words, a free kick merchant.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 24, 2020, 10:26:00 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.

Not bad going for the team's weak link!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on June 24, 2020, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on June 24, 2020, 12:14:16 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 54 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.
In other words, a free kick merchant.


So he's averaged over 2 points a game from play, for over 60 games.

Something tells me that will stack up pretty well against the best full forwards of all time (for example Peter Canavan averaged 3.7 total including frees, over the course of his championship  career).
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 10:39:06 AM
In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 10:56:21 AM
But you guys are once again getting caught up between O'Connor's role as a finisher and free taker in a team that dominates the opposition.

O'Connor should be the top scorer in that Mayo team - both from play and overall, that is the bare minimum you'd expect from him. He's not a Conor McManus or a Michael Murphy where he is double marked, followed around the pitch and pulled and dragged at every opportunity, he's not the focal point for Mayo who they need to get on the ball to make things happen.

O'Connor ironically enough has the luxury of not being dangerous enough to pay him serious attention, Moran was the guy who showed for and won the ball, who would torment his man marker with his cleverness and movement, the guy who could turn his marker and create situations where there is a defender out of the game and who was usually the benefactor of those situations - O'Connor.

Look back at Mayo games and it's their ability to turn the game into such a frenzied tempo that nobody (bar Dublin) could live with it. Guys like Keegan, Vaughan, O'Shea, Higgins, Boyle etc all bursting through the middle with me over. There's always going to be handy scores there, there is always going to be a defender who has to split two or three men coming through when Mayo click like that and O'Connor generally was the guy who benefited from that, when those overlaps happened, all he had to do was peel off a few yards wide from the man breaking through and he has a simple finish.

The Donegal game in 2013 is an absolute classic example of that, he's the spare man who finishes when Mayo get on top of an opponent. Where O'Connor fails is when those overlaps aren't as plentiful, when his man marker is able to give him his full attention and not trying to put out the fires Keegan, Durcan, Boyle etc are raging with their runs through the middle, he struggles - that's when you really find out what a top class forward is made of and that is where Andy Moran has proven himself as one of the best forwards in the game and where Cillian O'Connor has been found wanting.

Kris Boyd scored more goals than Henrik Larsson is Scottish football but it's an insult to compare them as strikers.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 10:58:07 AM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 10:39:06 AM
In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: An Fhairche Abu on June 24, 2020, 11:07:47 AM
Whether your opinion of Cillian O'Connor is favourable or unfavourable I don't think there is much argument around his scoring statistics, you can't hold the quality of his team-mates against him and even if you consider that he is just a functional player and not an aesthetically pleasing flair one, a score is a score, this talk of "handy ones" is absolute nonsense, Mayo have gone long into the season in a good number of years while he has been in the team and have played all the top teams of their era.

I would admit that I am not a fan of O'Connor at all myself (it would be hard for me to even think of a player I dislike more) given the current Galway/Mayo dynamic and his antics on the pitch but it's simply churlish to try and knock him for what he is actually good at which is scoring heavily. If Mayo had knocked off a couple of AI titles in (say in 2013 and 2016 for arguments sake) when they had excellent chances then I think the narrative would be very different here.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 24, 2020, 11:17:23 AM
You keep saying Mayo are a team that dominate the opposition. We haven't managed to win an All Ireland or even Connacht the last 4 years. It's nothing like the dominance Dublin have and Kerry have in Munster. Apart from probably the 2013 Connacht Championship every other one had several tough games and Cillian played a vital role in winning them.

People bringing up McManus, Murphy and Brogan again who have multiple all stars, player of the year awards etc. They are (rightly) lauded as generational talents, something never spoken about with Cillian. If you look at the amount of scores Cillian sets up for Keegan, paddy Durcan and others running through, also the amount of turnovers he wins off corner backs he offers plenty to the team besides an outrageous scoring tally.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 11:29:37 AM
Quote from: An Fhairche Abu on June 24, 2020, 11:07:47 AM
Whether your opinion of Cillian O'Connor is favourable or unfavourable I don't think there is much argument around his scoring statistics, you can't hold the quality of his team-mates against him and even if you consider that he is just a functional player and not an aesthetically pleasing flair one, a score is a score, this talk of "handy ones" is absolute nonsense, Mayo have gone long into the season in a good number of years while he has been in the team and have played all the top teams of their era.

I would admit that I am not a fan of O'Connor at all myself (it would be hard for me to even think of a player I dislike more) given the current Galway/Mayo dynamic and his antics on the pitch but it's simply churlish to try and knock him for what he is actually good at which is scoring heavily. If Mayo had knocked off a couple of AI titles in (say in 2013 and 2016 for arguments sake) when they had excellent chances then I think the narrative would be very different here.

His scoring record is what it is.

But of course you can hold the quality of his team mates, the style of football that Mayo - otherwise you're just encouraging lazy analysis where you look at the scorers on the newspaper report and make your judgement.

I've seen O'Connor play live a number of times and it has reinforced my views on him - he doesn't show for the ball, he's not strong enough off his left side, for a big guy he's not a particularly great ball winner and he lacks pace. I'll give him his dues in that he's a good finisher and he works hard defending from the front (but gets away with a lot of nonsense too). But he has severe limitations and there's no way he gets anywhere close to those scoring stats playing for any other county in the country. In fact a good few of the top teams he'd struggle to make as they have free takers as better, as good as or close enough to being as good that the difference is negligible when you consider what extra the alternatives can give you from play.

I don't think O'Connor would get on the Armagh team right now when you look at some of their forwards. The likes of Grimely, O'Neill and Grugan are probably every bit as good of free takers as O'Connor is and offer you far more from play, then you have the likes of Clarke, Murnin, Campbell, Rafferty, Hall and Turbitt there too.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on June 24, 2020, 11:31:20 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 10:58:07 AM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 10:39:06 AM
In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.


Context is extremely important?

It was almost 30 years between Mikey Sheehy retiring and Colm Cooper taking on the mantle of highest scorer in championship history. O'Connor pulled away from both at the age of 27. None of the all time greats have come close to matching him.



COC has played almost his entire county career in the era of the blanket defence. Don't try to tell me Football didn't change in 2012 with Jimmy winning matches. Every attacking player has a shield in front of them that the likes of Canavan, Joyce, Bradley, Fitzgerald, McConville never endured and the likes of Cooper and Brogan encountered only in their autumnal years.


That he has scored more than some half forwards who hit frees sometimes isn't the context. That he has outscored every forward in the history of the game is the actual context.



With a record of over 2 from play, my guess is that if you were to spend the next 3 days analysing the from-play scoring average of every forward with 30+ championship matches under their belt, COC would be in the top 10. You won't do that though, because once you head off the big hitters like Cooper, Sheehy, Joyce and Fitzgerald, you'll realise just how good over 2 from play is.



Context cannot be made so narrow that it only applies when you want it to, you clampet.





Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 11:35:34 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 24, 2020, 11:17:23 AM
You keep saying Mayo are a team that dominate the opposition. We haven't managed to win an All Ireland or even Connacht the last 4 years. It's nothing like the dominance Dublin have and Kerry have in Munster. Apart from probably the 2013 Connacht Championship every other one had several tough games and Cillian played a vital role in winning them.

People bringing up McManus, Murphy and Brogan again who have multiple all stars, player of the year awards etc. They are (rightly) lauded as generational talents, something never spoken about with Cillian. If you look at the amount of scores Cillian sets up for Keegan, paddy Durcan and others running through, also the amount of turnovers he wins off corner backs he offers plenty to the team besides an outrageous scoring tally.

I don't see that, I see a forward who has the type of freedom and autonomy Murphy, McManus etc couldn't even dream of ever having. I've said I'd give him his dues in that he's a good finisher and he works hard from the front but that's the height of it really.

He is not a good ball winner
He has no real flair or inventiveness
His movement is sub standard
He lacks pace
For a big guy he is not particularly great in the air
He's fairly one sided

I'm not doubting his finishing ability and his work rate and I think he has certainly made the most of his abilities but when you see him live, it is painfully obvious how limited he is. The real top level forwards are capable of surviving on scraps, O'Connor would be anonymous on them.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 24, 2020, 11:31:20 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 10:58:07 AM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 10:39:06 AM
In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.


Context is extremely important?

It was almost 30 years between Mikey Sheehy retiring and Colm Cooper taking on the mantle of highest scorer in championship history. O'Connor pulled away from both at the age of 27. None of the all time greats have come close to matching him.



COC has played almost his entire county career in the era of the blanket defence. Don't try to tell me Football didn't change in 2012 with Jimmy winning matches. Every attacking player has a shield in front of them that the likes of Canavan, Joyce, Bradley, Fitzgerald, McConville never endured and the likes of Cooper and Brogan encountered only in their autumnal years.


That he has scored more than some half forwards who hit frees sometimes isn't the context. That he has outscored every forward in the history of the game is the actual context.




Context cannot be made so narrow that it only applies when you want it to, you clampet.

You're waffling about a statistic and ignoring the context.

The likes of 3-09 in a 20+ point drubbing of Limerick in a qualifier or 3-03 in a 20+ drubbing of London in a Connacht final, 1-07 in a 20+ point drubbing of Sligo in a Connacht final or 3-04 in a 20+ drubbing of Donegal in an All Ireland QF needs context.

Context is need to explain the 0-01 that comes from a tap over point 20 yards in front of the posts and the 0-1 that comes from beating two men to a ball out around the 45 yard line, taking a number of hits before hitting a score from an acute angle from the sideline off your weaker foot.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on June 24, 2020, 11:44:29 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 24, 2020, 11:31:20 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 10:58:07 AM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 10:39:06 AM
In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.


Context is extremely important?

It was almost 30 years between Mikey Sheehy retiring and Colm Cooper taking on the mantle of highest scorer in championship history. O'Connor pulled away from both at the age of 27. None of the all time greats have come close to matching him.



COC has played almost his entire county career in the era of the blanket defence. Don't try to tell me Football didn't change in 2012 with Jimmy winning matches. Every attacking player has a shield in front of them that the likes of Canavan, Joyce, Bradley, Fitzgerald, McConville never endured and the likes of Cooper and Brogan encountered only in their autumnal years.


That he has scored more than some half forwards who hit frees sometimes isn't the context. That he has outscored every forward in the history of the game is the actual context.




Context cannot be made so narrow that it only applies when you want it to, you clampet.

You're waffling about a statistic and ignoring the context.

The likes of 3-09 in a 20+ point drubbing of Limerick in a qualifier or 3-03 in a 20+ drubbing of London in a Connacht final, 1-07 in a 20+ point drubbing of Sligo in a Connacht final or 3-04 in a 20+ drubbing of Donegal in an All Ireland QF needs context.

Context is need to explain the 0-01 that comes from a tap over point 20 yards in front of the posts and the 0-1 that comes from beating two men to a ball out around the 45 yard line, taking a number of hits before hitting a score from an acute angle from the sideline off your weaker foot.




Oh seriously would you just f**k off? Every single player in the history of football has played in turkey shoots, but almost half the matches he has played for Mayo have been AI quarter finals, super 8s or later. These things don't just balance each other out, they add complete credence to his case.

You are a myopic, biased, contorted mess of a human being.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on June 24, 2020, 11:48:26 AM
Also before I go.

Tell me which of these "real top-level forwards capable of surviving on scraps", use their extraordinary abilities to out score O'Connor from play. Just the corner forwards please, so we can compare like for like.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 11:53:56 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 10:58:07 AM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 10:39:06 AM
In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

Of course it is. I have Muldoon and Lynch making 54 C'ship appearance for Derry. Muldoon did play out field a bit, but was regularly used as FF, as he was when Derry got to the AI semifinals in 2001 & 2004.

I have O'Connor on 55 appearances (one more than Lar accounted, but we'll not fall out over that)

The following players have made more than 55 C'ship appearances:
Gooch - 85
John Doyle - 67
Murphy - 67
B Brogan - 66
P Joyce - 60
McDonnell - 62
McManus - 57
S O'Neill - 65
Mulligan - 61
Coulter - 58

Quite a few of those were predominantly inside forwards and the go to men on the dominant team, as well as hitting frees.  A few of them have multiple All-Ireland titles. Some have one. Only Doyle, McManus and Coulter are without.

And if we are applying the logic of discounting large individual scores against "weaker" opposition, then the same should be applied to all players.
Eg Dean Rock scored 1-11 against Roscommon last year(?) That's gone.
The 3-04 McDonnell scored against Limerick in 2003
The 3-04 A O'Shea scored against Sligo in 2015

I think we should set up and panel to decide which scores count and which do not.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: An Fhairche Abu on June 24, 2020, 12:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 11:29:37 AM
Quote from: An Fhairche Abu on June 24, 2020, 11:07:47 AM
Whether your opinion of Cillian O'Connor is favourable or unfavourable I don't think there is much argument around his scoring statistics, you can't hold the quality of his team-mates against him and even if you consider that he is just a functional player and not an aesthetically pleasing flair one, a score is a score, this talk of "handy ones" is absolute nonsense, Mayo have gone long into the season in a good number of years while he has been in the team and have played all the top teams of their era.

I would admit that I am not a fan of O'Connor at all myself (it would be hard for me to even think of a player I dislike more) given the current Galway/Mayo dynamic and his antics on the pitch but it's simply churlish to try and knock him for what he is actually good at which is scoring heavily. If Mayo had knocked off a couple of AI titles in (say in 2013 and 2016 for arguments sake) when they had excellent chances then I think the narrative would be very different here.

His scoring record is what it is.

But of course you can hold the quality of his team mates, the style of football that Mayo - otherwise you're just encouraging lazy analysis where you look at the scorers on the newspaper report and make your judgement.

I've seen O'Connor play live a number of times and it has reinforced my views on him - he doesn't show for the ball, he's not strong enough off his left side, for a big guy he's not a particularly great ball winner and he lacks pace. I'll give him his dues in that he's a good finisher and he works hard defending from the front (but gets away with a lot of nonsense too). But he has severe limitations and there's no way he gets anywhere close to those scoring stats playing for any other county in the country. In fact a good few of the top teams he'd struggle to make as they have free takers as better, as good as or close enough to being as good that the difference is negligible when you consider what extra the alternatives can give you from play.

I don't think O'Connor would get on the Armagh team right now when you look at some of their forwards. The likes of Grimely, O'Neill and Grugan are probably every bit as good of free takers as O'Connor is and offer you far more from play, then you have the likes of Clarke, Murnin, Campbell, Rafferty, Hall and Turbitt there too.

This assertion is as absurd as this Galway man having to defend the actual facts around his scoring record, those Armagh lads have never even played in matches of the magnitude that O'Connor has, much less have the scoring record in those to match.

I've also just realised you're the same lad who tried to argue here against the actual video evidence that was there for anyone with a set of eyes to see with respect to the red card Kieran McGeary got in the league match in Tuam. If there can be no agreement even on the facts as they are to hand to debate around then what's the point. You are either on the wind up or haven't a clue. I'm out.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:02:11 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 11:53:56 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 10:58:07 AM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 10:39:06 AM
In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

Of course it is. I have Muldoon and Lynch making 54 C'ship appearance for Derry. Muldoon did play out field a bit, but was regularly used as FF, as he was when Derry got to the AI semifinals in 2001 & 2004.

I have O'Connor on 55 appearances (one more than Lar accounted, but we'll not fall out over that)

The following players have made more than 55 C'ship appearances:
Gooch - 85
John Doyle - 67
Murphy - 67
B Brogan - 66
P Joyce - 60
McDonnell - 62
McManus - 57
S O'Neill - 65
Mulligan - 61
Coulter - 58

Quite a few of those were predominantly inside forwards and the go to men on the dominant team, as well as hitting frees.  A few of them have multiple All-Ireland titles. Some have one. Only Doyle, McManus and Coulter are without.

And if we are applying the logic of discounting large individual scores against "weaker" opposition, then the same should be applied to all players.
Eg Dean Rock scored 1-11 against Roscommon last year(?) That's gone.
The 3-04 McDonnell scored against Limerick in 2003
The 3-04 A O'Shea scored against Sligo in 2015

I think we should set up and panel to decide which scores count and which do not.
Touché!
Sorry 'bout that. I thought I had corrected the figure in the final draft but I see I let it through.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 12:14:43 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 24, 2020, 11:48:26 AM
Also before I go.

Tell me which of these "real top-level forwards capable of surviving on scraps", use their extraordinary abilities to out score O'Connor from play. Just the corner forwards please, so we can compare like for like.

I could easily give you a list of about 20-30 players currently playing who would easily out perform O'Connor if they were both fed on scraps.

It's pretty pointless though when you are just going to keep referring back to a statistic without any debate on context.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 12:16:21 PM
Quote from: An Fhairche Abu on June 24, 2020, 12:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 11:29:37 AM
Quote from: An Fhairche Abu on June 24, 2020, 11:07:47 AM
Whether your opinion of Cillian O'Connor is favourable or unfavourable I don't think there is much argument around his scoring statistics, you can't hold the quality of his team-mates against him and even if you consider that he is just a functional player and not an aesthetically pleasing flair one, a score is a score, this talk of "handy ones" is absolute nonsense, Mayo have gone long into the season in a good number of years while he has been in the team and have played all the top teams of their era.

I would admit that I am not a fan of O'Connor at all myself (it would be hard for me to even think of a player I dislike more) given the current Galway/Mayo dynamic and his antics on the pitch but it's simply churlish to try and knock him for what he is actually good at which is scoring heavily. If Mayo had knocked off a couple of AI titles in (say in 2013 and 2016 for arguments sake) when they had excellent chances then I think the narrative would be very different here.

His scoring record is what it is.

But of course you can hold the quality of his team mates, the style of football that Mayo - otherwise you're just encouraging lazy analysis where you look at the scorers on the newspaper report and make your judgement.

I've seen O'Connor play live a number of times and it has reinforced my views on him - he doesn't show for the ball, he's not strong enough off his left side, for a big guy he's not a particularly great ball winner and he lacks pace. I'll give him his dues in that he's a good finisher and he works hard defending from the front (but gets away with a lot of nonsense too). But he has severe limitations and there's no way he gets anywhere close to those scoring stats playing for any other county in the country. In fact a good few of the top teams he'd struggle to make as they have free takers as better, as good as or close enough to being as good that the difference is negligible when you consider what extra the alternatives can give you from play.

I don't think O'Connor would get on the Armagh team right now when you look at some of their forwards. The likes of Grimely, O'Neill and Grugan are probably every bit as good of free takers as O'Connor is and offer you far more from play, then you have the likes of Clarke, Murnin, Campbell, Rafferty, Hall and Turbitt there too.

This assertion is as absurd as this Galway man having to defend the actual facts around his scoring record, those Armagh lads have never even played in matches of the magnitude that O'Connor has, much less have the scoring record in those to match.

I've also just realised you're the same lad who tried to argue here against the actual video evidence that was there for anyone with a set of eyes to see with respect to the red card Kieran McGeary got in the league match in Tuam. If there can be no agreement even on the facts as they are to hand to debate around then what's the point. You are either on the wind up or haven't a clue. I'm out.

Those Armagh lads never played with two FOTY and multiple all star winners either so if you are contradicting yourself there.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 24, 2020, 12:17:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 24, 2020, 11:31:20 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 10:58:07 AM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 10:39:06 AM
In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.


Context is extremely important?

It was almost 30 years between Mikey Sheehy retiring and Colm Cooper taking on the mantle of highest scorer in championship history. O'Connor pulled away from both at the age of 27. None of the all time greats have come close to matching him.



COC has played almost his entire county career in the era of the blanket defence. Don't try to tell me Football didn't change in 2012 with Jimmy winning matches. Every attacking player has a shield in front of them that the likes of Canavan, Joyce, Bradley, Fitzgerald, McConville never endured and the likes of Cooper and Brogan encountered only in their autumnal years.


That he has scored more than some half forwards who hit frees sometimes isn't the context. That he has outscored every forward in the history of the game is the actual context.




Context cannot be made so narrow that it only applies when you want it to, you clampet.

You're waffling about a statistic and ignoring the context.

The likes of 3-09 in a 20+ point drubbing of Limerick in a qualifier or 3-03 in a 20+ drubbing of London in a Connacht final, 1-07 in a 20+ point drubbing of Sligo in a Connacht final or 3-04 in a 20+ drubbing of Donegal in an All Ireland QF needs context.

Context is need to explain the 0-01 that comes from a tap over point 20 yards in front of the posts and the 0-1 that comes from beating two men to a ball out around the 45 yard line, taking a number of hits before hitting a score from an acute angle from the sideline off your weaker foot.

He also got 1-9 in a game against Dublin, should we exclude that too?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 12:32:23 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 11:53:56 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 10:58:07 AM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 10:39:06 AM
In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

Of course it is. I have Muldoon and Lynch making 54 C'ship appearance for Derry. Muldoon did play out field a bit, but was regularly used as FF, as he was when Derry got to the AI semifinals in 2001 & 2004.

I have O'Connor on 55 appearances (one more than Lar accounted, but we'll not fall out over that)

The following players have made more than 55 C'ship appearances:
Gooch - 85
John Doyle - 67
Murphy - 67
B Brogan - 66
P Joyce - 60
McDonnell - 62
McManus - 57
S O'Neill - 65
Mulligan - 61
Coulter - 58

Quite a few of those were predominantly inside forwards and the go to men on the dominant team, as well as hitting frees.  A few of them have multiple All-Ireland titles. Some have one. Only Doyle, McManus and Coulter are without.

And if we are applying the logic of discounting large individual scores against "weaker" opposition, then the same should be applied to all players.
Eg Dean Rock scored 1-11 against Roscommon last year(?) That's gone.
The 3-04 McDonnell scored against Limerick in 2003
The 3-04 A O'Shea scored against Sligo in 2015

I think we should set up and panel to decide which scores count and which do not.

Comparing Stevie McDonnell with O'Connor.

Behave.

McDonnell was the focal point of that Armagh team, the go to man, hit the ball into him he will win it. It doesn't matter who was on him, low or high, right  side of left side. McDonnell was the epitome of what a top class forward was and is. The difference between him and O'Connor is absolute night and day and McDonnell had McConville taking the frees for the vast majority of his Armagh career.

O'Connor is the proxy scorer for all the brilliant work done from the likes of Keegan, Higgins, Parsons, Boyle, his brother, Doherty etc.

That's the difference you just can't seem to get your head around - O'Connor is just far too limited as a forward to ever be considered a focal point for a team, a man where everything goes through - he's a million miles off a Murphy, a Canavan, a McDonnell, a McManus. He struggles to win his own ball, he doesn't not have the power or pace to torment his marker. He doesn't have the skill or inventiveness to make that extra yard of space or extra few seconds on the ball for himself.

As a man marker you can read O'Connor, you know he's going to struggle to outpace you, outpower you, you know he doesn't have his left side, you know he doesn't have that natural flair to sell you a dummy, a shimmy or a feint. The issues for most defenders O'Connor has faced is how they cope with the extra men coming through. Do they stick with O'Connor who is a deadly finisher when given the time and space or do they go and deal with the extra bodies Mayo have coming through the middle at ferocious pace.

O'Connor would not come close to replicating his scoring records for any other county than Mayo.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 12:33:33 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 24, 2020, 12:17:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 24, 2020, 11:31:20 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 10:58:07 AM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 10:39:06 AM
In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.


Context is extremely important?

It was almost 30 years between Mikey Sheehy retiring and Colm Cooper taking on the mantle of highest scorer in championship history. O'Connor pulled away from both at the age of 27. None of the all time greats have come close to matching him.



COC has played almost his entire county career in the era of the blanket defence. Don't try to tell me Football didn't change in 2012 with Jimmy winning matches. Every attacking player has a shield in front of them that the likes of Canavan, Joyce, Bradley, Fitzgerald, McConville never endured and the likes of Cooper and Brogan encountered only in their autumnal years.


That he has scored more than some half forwards who hit frees sometimes isn't the context. That he has outscored every forward in the history of the game is the actual context.




Context cannot be made so narrow that it only applies when you want it to, you clampet.

You're waffling about a statistic and ignoring the context.

The likes of 3-09 in a 20+ point drubbing of Limerick in a qualifier or 3-03 in a 20+ drubbing of London in a Connacht final, 1-07 in a 20+ point drubbing of Sligo in a Connacht final or 3-04 in a 20+ drubbing of Donegal in an All Ireland QF needs context.

Context is need to explain the 0-01 that comes from a tap over point 20 yards in front of the posts and the 0-1 that comes from beating two men to a ball out around the 45 yard line, taking a number of hits before hitting a score from an acute angle from the sideline off your weaker foot.

He also got 1-9 in a game against Dublin, should we exclude that too?

How many of those points did he engineer himself and how many were made from the work of Higgins, Moran, Keegan et al
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.


I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 02:07:15 PM
Mayo defenders has some scoring record.

Lee Keegan scored 7-43 in 54 championship games.
Paddy Durcan 0-32 in 33 games.
Donie Vaughan 2-21 in 58 games.
Colm Boyle 1-14 in 55 games
Keith Higgins 1-13 in 74 games.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on June 24, 2020, 02:24:41 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian’s scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe’s blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes….

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.


I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.
if they do They will deserve it .
and lets hope every can find it n they hearts to credit them for it , unlike the reaction to Cillain Just because he can look after himself
in fact one of the biggest barriers they will face  is each other .
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Cunny Funt on June 24, 2020, 02:26:31 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 02:07:15 PM
Mayo defenders has some scoring record.

Lee Keegan scored 7-43 in 54 championship games.
Paddy Durcan 0-32 in 33 games.
Donie Vaughan 2-21 in 58 games.
Colm Boyle 1-14 in 55 games
Keith Higgins 1-13 in 74 games.

When Mayo were at their peak 2013-2017 the best all round footballers and leaders on the team was Boyle, Higgins and Keegan. Right now Paddy Durcan is agurably the best footballer they have but he's playing in a side with less leadership and quality than the aforementioned years.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on June 24, 2020, 02:55:09 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.


I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.

Yeah, serious return, but he's no Dazzler McCurry  ;D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Maroon Manc on June 24, 2020, 03:08:58 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 02:07:15 PM
Mayo defenders has some scoring record.

Lee Keegan scored 7-43 in 54 championship games.
Paddy Durcan 0-32 in 33 games.
Donie Vaughan 2-21 in 58 games.
Colm Boyle 1-14 in 55 games
Keith Higgins 1-13 in 74 games.

Keegan is something else and his record is that more impressive considering he'd be usually marking the oppositions best forward. Mayo have scored 3 goals in finals the last decade and he's got 2 of them, the best Mayo player I've seen.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 04:44:39 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 24, 2020, 02:55:09 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.


I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.

Yeah, serious return, but he's no Dazzler McCurry  ;D

Oh look, a Derry man itching to satisfy that chip on his shoulder.

Highly unlikely anyone will get close to O'Connor's record as nobody will quite get an ecosystem quite like O'Connor has had with Mayo to harvest handy scores.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 04:51:59 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 24, 2020, 02:24:41 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.


I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.
if they do They will deserve it .
and lets hope every can find it n they hearts to credit them for it , unlike the reaction to Cillain Just because he can look after himself
in fact one of the biggest barriers they will face  is each other .

I have no issue with O'Connor being able to look after himself. He just happens to be a fairly limited player who has benefited from being handed a free taking duties.

His brother who also has some of his less endearing attributes is 10 times the player COC is and one of the best half forwards in the country.

If Mayo had a Michael Murphy, Conor McManus, Paul Geaney etc, the likelihood is that O'Connor would then really struggle to make that Mayo team. They solve the free taking duties and there's no way you can say that O'Connor gives you what Andy Moran, Jason Doherty, his brother, Aidan O'Shea or Kevin McLoughlin do from play.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on June 24, 2020, 05:04:12 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 04:44:39 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 24, 2020, 02:55:09 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.


I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.

Yeah, serious return, but he's no Dazzler McCurry  ;D

Oh look, a Derry man itching to satisfy that chip on his shoulder.

Highly unlikely anyone will get close to O'Connor's record as nobody will quite get an ecosystem quite like O'Connor has had with Mayo to harvest handy scores.

Chip? Ah ha, you're the man continuously lambasting O'Connor. Haven't seen you call out any other poster on their county. Just shows, even in our current predictiment, we're never far from your thoughts. #thedazzler
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 05:09:16 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 24, 2020, 05:04:12 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 04:44:39 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 24, 2020, 02:55:09 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.


I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.

Yeah, serious return, but he's no Dazzler McCurry  ;D

Oh look, a Derry man itching to satisfy that chip on his shoulder.

Highly unlikely anyone will get close to O'Connor's record as nobody will quite get an ecosystem quite like O'Connor has had with Mayo to harvest handy scores.

Chip? Ah ha, you're the man continuously lambasting O'Connor. Haven't seen you call out any other poster on their county. Just shows, even in our current predictiment, we're never far from your thoughts. #thedazzler

Lambasting him?

I'm appraising him as a player, he has always stood out as the weak link in what was/is a fantastic Mayo team.

McCurry is not a top class forward but neither is O'Connor. You're the guy whose obsession with Tyrone saw you bring a Tyrone man into it.

I think it was The Dazzler who broke Derry's hearts last summer, still greeting over it?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on June 24, 2020, 05:26:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 05:09:16 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 24, 2020, 05:04:12 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 04:44:39 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 24, 2020, 02:55:09 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.


I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.

Yeah, serious return, but he's no Dazzler McCurry  ;D

Oh look, a Derry man itching to satisfy that chip on his shoulder.

Highly unlikely anyone will get close to O'Connor's record as nobody will quite get an ecosystem quite like O'Connor has had with Mayo to harvest handy scores.

Chip? Ah ha, you're the man continuously lambasting O'Connor. Haven't seen you call out any other poster on their county. Just shows, even in our current predictiment, we're never far from your thoughts. #thedazzler

Lambasting him?

I'm appraising him as a player, he has always stood out as the weak link in what was/is a fantastic Mayo team.

McCurry is not a top class forward but neither is O'Connor. You're the guy whose obsession with Tyrone saw you bring a Tyrone man into it.

I think it was The Dazzler who broke Derry's hearts last summer, still greeting over it?

To greet, or not to greet, that's the question dear Angelo
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: BennyCake on June 24, 2020, 06:04:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 12:32:23 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 11:53:56 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 10:58:07 AM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 10:39:06 AM
In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

Of course it is. I have Muldoon and Lynch making 54 C'ship appearance for Derry. Muldoon did play out field a bit, but was regularly used as FF, as he was when Derry got to the AI semifinals in 2001 & 2004.

I have O'Connor on 55 appearances (one more than Lar accounted, but we'll not fall out over that)

The following players have made more than 55 C'ship appearances:
Gooch - 85
John Doyle - 67
Murphy - 67
B Brogan - 66
P Joyce - 60
McDonnell - 62
McManus - 57
S O'Neill - 65
Mulligan - 61
Coulter - 58

Quite a few of those were predominantly inside forwards and the go to men on the dominant team, as well as hitting frees.  A few of them have multiple All-Ireland titles. Some have one. Only Doyle, McManus and Coulter are without.

And if we are applying the logic of discounting large individual scores against "weaker" opposition, then the same should be applied to all players.
Eg Dean Rock scored 1-11 against Roscommon last year(?) That's gone.
The 3-04 McDonnell scored against Limerick in 2003
The 3-04 A O'Shea scored against Sligo in 2015

I think we should set up and panel to decide which scores count and which do not.

Comparing Stevie McDonnell with O'Connor.

Behave.

McDonnell was the focal point of that Armagh team, the go to man, hit the ball into him he will win it. It doesn't matter who was on him, low or high, right  side of left side. McDonnell was the epitome of what a top class forward was and is. The difference between him and O'Connor is absolute night and day and McDonnell had McConville taking the frees for the vast majority of his Armagh career.

O'Connor is the proxy scorer for all the brilliant work done from the likes of Keegan, Higgins, Parsons, Boyle, his brother, Doherty etc.

That's the difference you just can't seem to get your head around - O'Connor is just far too limited as a forward to ever be considered a focal point for a team, a man where everything goes through - he's a million miles off a Murphy, a Canavan, a McDonnell, a McManus. He struggles to win his own ball, he doesn't not have the power or pace to torment his marker. He doesn't have the skill or inventiveness to make that extra yard of space or extra few seconds on the ball for himself.

As a man marker you can read O'Connor, you know he's going to struggle to outpace you, outpower you, you know he doesn't have his left side, you know he doesn't have that natural flair to sell you a dummy, a shimmy or a feint. The issues for most defenders O'Connor has faced is how they cope with the extra men coming through. Do they stick with O'Connor who is a deadly finisher when given the time and space or do they go and deal with the extra bodies Mayo have coming through the middle at ferocious pace.

O'Connor would not come close to replicating his scoring records for any other county than Mayo.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Especially the bits in bold.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Estimator on June 24, 2020, 09:17:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 05:09:16 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 24, 2020, 05:04:12 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 04:44:39 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 24, 2020, 02:55:09 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.


I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.

Yeah, serious return, but he's no Dazzler McCurry  ;D

Oh look, a Derry man itching to satisfy that chip on his shoulder.

Highly unlikely anyone will get close to O'Connor's record as nobody will quite get an ecosystem quite like O'Connor has had with Mayo to harvest handy scores.

Chip? Ah ha, you're the man continuously lambasting O'Connor. Haven't seen you call out any other poster on their county. Just shows, even in our current predictiment, we're never far from your thoughts. #thedazzler

Lambasting him?

I'm appraising him as a player, he has always stood out as the weak link in what was/is a fantastic Mayo team.

McCurry is not a top class forward but neither is O'Connor. You're the guy whose obsession with Tyrone saw you bring a Tyrone man into it.

I think it was The Dazzler who broke Derry's hearts last summer, still greeting over it?

Angelo, you've brought McCurry into this thread on a number of occasions. You've compared him favourably with O'Connor. You've said (twice) that McCurry could end up as Tyrone's all time top c'ship scorer. I'd assume that JoG2 mentioned him, because you introduced him into the conversation.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rodney trotter on June 24, 2020, 09:32:47 PM
McCurry is the ultimate winter footballer. He shines in the soft ground of the McKenna Cup and League, found wanting in the Championship. O Connor at least has done it at the latter stages of championship
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 11:27:50 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 22, 2020, 03:16:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 22, 2020, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 22, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

I do know that Tyrone lack a top class inside forward or did until McShane arrived on the scene last year. McCurry and McAliskey blow hot and cold but are very dangerous players in the right system and when they're firing - more dangerous than O'Connor for me personally but none of them are top level. The difference is that between 2011-present I think Mayo have been a lot strong from 1-12 than Tyrone have, you could say they have been stronger from 13-15 too but that would probably be down solely to Andy Moran too.

Just out of interest, what is McCurry's Championship total at present? Canavan has approx 210/220 points to his name.

McCurry has scored  4-96 in 39 championship games. McAliskey has scored 4-95 in 40 games
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on June 25, 2020, 11:03:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 04:51:59 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 24, 2020, 02:24:41 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian’s scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe’s blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes….

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.


I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.
if they do They will deserve it .
and lets hope every can find it n they hearts to credit them for it , unlike the reaction to Cillain Just because he can look after himself
in fact one of the biggest barriers they will face  is each other .

I have no issue with O'Connor being able to look after himself. He just happens to be a fairly limited player who has benefited from being handed a free taking duties.

His brother who also has some of his less endearing attributes is 10 times the player COC is and one of the best half forwards in the country.

If Mayo had a Michael Murphy, Conor McManus, Paul Geaney etc, the likelihood is that O'Connor would then really struggle to make that Mayo team. They solve the free taking duties and there's no way you can say that O'Connor gives you what Andy Moran, Jason Doherty, his brother, Aidan O'Shea or Kevin McLoughlin do from play.
do you not Believe stats and relay on your own prejudices instead. Cillain is a better player than any of those when it comes to scoring and I would not swap any of them ,
then you continue your nonsense by blaming Cillian for having other great players on the team , ow far would any player get if he was playing with Donkeys
another great leadership aspect of Cillian's is you never hear him ( or any of the mayo team) whinging about how hard life is and how warm and comfortable sitting by the fire  is like Niall morgan is going on with the lst few day
.  A great way to undermine you team . Will harte put up that Crap?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Lar Naparka on June 25, 2020, 11:49:57 AM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 25, 2020, 11:03:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 04:51:59 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 24, 2020, 02:24:41 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.


I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.
if they do They will deserve it .
and lets hope every can find it n they hearts to credit them for it , unlike the reaction to Cillain Just because he can look after himself
in fact one of the biggest barriers they will face  is each other .

I have no issue with O'Connor being able to look after himself. He just happens to be a fairly limited player who has benefited from being handed a free taking duties.

His brother who also has some of his less endearing attributes is 10 times the player COC is and one of the best half forwards in the country.

If Mayo had a Michael Murphy, Conor McManus, Paul Geaney etc, the likelihood is that O'Connor would then really struggle to make that Mayo team. They solve the free taking duties and there's no way you can say that O'Connor gives you what Andy Moran, Jason Doherty, his brother, Aidan O'Shea or Kevin McLoughlin do from play.
do you not Believe stats and relay on your own prejudices instead. Cillain is a better player than any of those when it comes to scoring and I would not swap any of them ,
then you continue your nonsense by blaming Cillian for having other great players on the team , ow far would any player get if he was playing with Donkeys
another great leadership aspect of Cillian's is you never hear him ( or any of the mayo team) whinging about how hard life is and how warm and comfortable sitting by the fire  is like Niall morgan is going on with the lst few day
.  A great way to undermine you team . Will harte put up that Crap?
Well said. Ros. You've put your point of view very well and it's up to others to answer it-  if they can.

I've never hidden the fact that I had high hopes of Cillian in his early years. I think POTY at 20 and 21 speaks for itself. But, IMO anyway, he's gone apeshit in later years.  A hot-headed player could be a red card walking and all it needs for the opposition manager to put the great plonk on is team to mark this guy and to needles and harass him until he rears up and get a red card. Doesn't matter if theddecoy gets the line too- his loss won't be as great as the hothead's on the other team.
This hasn't happened to O'Connor yet but he's always courting disaster unless he concentrates on his football and gives up the handbagging.
However, a reporter with the Mayo News told me recently that Cillian is determined to give it a mighty lash this year as he knows time is running short for him and his mates. I'm hoping and praying that this is going to happen.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 25, 2020, 01:34:01 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 25, 2020, 11:03:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 04:51:59 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 24, 2020, 02:24:41 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.


I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.
if they do They will deserve it .
and lets hope every can find it n they hearts to credit them for it , unlike the reaction to Cillain Just because he can look after himself
in fact one of the biggest barriers they will face  is each other .

I have no issue with O'Connor being able to look after himself. He just happens to be a fairly limited player who has benefited from being handed a free taking duties.

His brother who also has some of his less endearing attributes is 10 times the player COC is and one of the best half forwards in the country.

If Mayo had a Michael Murphy, Conor McManus, Paul Geaney etc, the likelihood is that O'Connor would then really struggle to make that Mayo team. They solve the free taking duties and there's no way you can say that O'Connor gives you what Andy Moran, Jason Doherty, his brother, Aidan O'Shea or Kevin McLoughlin do from play.
do you not Believe stats and relay on your own prejudices instead. Cillain is a better player than any of those when it comes to scoring and I would not swap any of them ,
then you continue your nonsense by blaming Cillian for having other great players on the team , ow far would any player get if he was playing with Donkeys
another great leadership aspect of Cillian's is you never hear him ( or any of the mayo team) whinging about how hard life is and how warm and comfortable sitting by the fire  is like Niall morgan is going on with the lst few day
.  A great way to undermine you team . Will harte put up that Crap?

I have more faith in what I see than a statistic.

If you look at the Sunday reports and the scorers for your judgement then you will believe O'Connor is a top class forward but when you see him play and you see top class forwards like a McManus, Clifford, O'Callaghan, Murphy in action you see that these guys are the focal point in most or a lot of their teams scores whereas O'Connor generally finishes the good work done by Mayo's real star men.

Put it this way, if you picked an average club player and put him on the Dublin side, gave him free taking duties and guaranteed him his place and free taking duties you'd fancy he'd be one of the top scorers in Championship.

If you put Cillian O'Connor in the Antrim side or Carlow side, he probably doesn't even stand out as their best forward.

I firmly believe most counties have at least one forward as good as or better than O'Connor, he has fairly notable limitations and his scoring record is greatly helped by the team he plays for, the style of play Mayo adopt and his role in that team.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 25, 2020, 01:40:40 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on June 24, 2020, 09:32:47 PM
McCurry is the ultimate winter footballer. He shines in the soft ground of the McKenna Cup and League, found wanting in the Championship. O Connor at least has done it at the latter stages of championship

McCurry is not a top class forward which is why he has been in and out of the Tyrone team for the past decade. I think he's a far better player in the summer conditions than the winter ones to be fair, his problem is that he is a confidence player and when his confidence is low his return is poor. It's also worth pointing out that the style of football Tyrone have played would not have been too beneficial to a skilful inside forward.

But Cillian O'Connor is not a top class forward either, he just happened to play with better players than McCurry has in that time and play in a system and style of play which allows forwards much more time and space to impact the scoreboard.

I also think it's worth pointing that up to 50% of McCurry and McAliskey's championship appearances would have been off the bench.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Manning18 on June 25, 2020, 03:00:45 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 25, 2020, 11:03:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 24, 2020, 04:51:59 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 24, 2020, 02:24:41 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 24, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 24, 2020, 12:07:36 AM
Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.


I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.
if they do They will deserve it .
and lets hope every can find it n they hearts to credit them for it , unlike the reaction to Cillain Just because he can look after himself
in fact one of the biggest barriers they will face  is each other .

I have no issue with O'Connor being able to look after himself. He just happens to be a fairly limited player who has benefited from being handed a free taking duties.

His brother who also has some of his less endearing attributes is 10 times the player COC is and one of the best half forwards in the country.

If Mayo had a Michael Murphy, Conor McManus, Paul Geaney etc, the likelihood is that O'Connor would then really struggle to make that Mayo team. They solve the free taking duties and there's no way you can say that O'Connor gives you what Andy Moran, Jason Doherty, his brother, Aidan O'Shea or Kevin McLoughlin do from play.
do you not Believe stats and relay on your own prejudices instead. Cillain is a better player than any of those when it comes to scoring and I would not swap any of them ,
then you continue your nonsense by blaming Cillian for having other great players on the team , ow far would any player get if he was playing with Donkeys
another great leadership aspect of Cillian's is you never hear him ( or any of the mayo team) whinging about how hard life is and how warm and comfortable sitting by the fire  is like Niall morgan is going on with the lst few day
.  A great way to undermine you team . Will harte put up that Crap?

Am I reading this correctly? You wouldn't swap Cillian for Michael Murphy or Conor McManus?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on June 25, 2020, 05:47:28 PM
no because they do not score enough .
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: StephenC on June 25, 2020, 06:23:51 PM
That's the thing about most internet debates ... people retreat further and further back into their positions.

We now have on one side: COC is one of the premier forwards in Ireland, better than Murphy and McManus.
And on the other: COC wouldn't be the best forward on the Antrim team.

Isn't the reality that COC is a great forward (although filthy) and has demonstrated that over many years, and, his scoring record probably flatters him somewhat and he's not necessarily a better player than those lower on the scoring list.

Important to remember as well that he's just a young lad doing his best for his county. There's not too many on the board that can speak from a position of experience when it comes to IC football.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: BennyCake on June 25, 2020, 06:25:02 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 25, 2020, 05:47:28 PM
no because they do not score enough .

Ah Jesus man. If either Murphy or McManus were Mayo players, you'd have 3 or 4 AIs by now.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on June 25, 2020, 06:30:23 PM
Quote from: StephenC on June 25, 2020, 06:23:51 PM
That's the thing about most internet debates ... people retreat further and further back into their positions.

We now have on one side: COC is one of the premier forwards in Ireland better than Murphy and McManus
And on the other: COC wouldn't be the best forward on the Antrim team.

Isn't the reality that COC is a great forward (although filthy) and has demonstrated that over many years, and, his scoring record probably flatters him somewhat and he's not necessarily a better player than those lower on the scoring list.

Important to remember as well that he's just a young lad doing his best for his county. There's not too many on the board that can speak from a position of experience when it comes to IC football.

I don't think anyone is saying it. Someone half read a sentence by rosnarun and others are responding to it. He states O'Connor is better at scoring. The stats back it up. Is there anyone really saying O'Connor is a better footballer than McManus or Murphy, don't think so.

Quote from: BennyCake on June 25, 2020, 06:25:02 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 25, 2020, 05:47:28 PM
no because they do not score enough .

Ah Jesus man. If either Murphy or McManus were Mayo players, you'd have 3 or 4 AIs by now.

Again, read what Ross wrote. Did you not once famously say O'Connor wasn't consistent Benny? You've some benchmark for consistency
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Blowitupref on June 25, 2020, 06:56:03 PM
Mayo lacking scoring power to win any of their 2012,2013, 2016, 2017 finals is a bit of myth, Mayo problems in finals was self inflicted. A bad habit of conceding goals that were easy to avoid, goal keeping errors at key stages in games and OGs.

Mayos last final appearance 3 years ago had forwards that included the seasons top scorer Cillian O Connor and Andy Moran the footballer of the year yet Mayo still found a way to lose and Vaughan foolishly getting himself played a big part in that final defeat.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: BennyCake on June 25, 2020, 06:59:29 PM
I said he's always a red card waiting to happen.

He's a frustrating player to watch. Gets involved in too much shite, and doesn't have to ability of Moran or McLoughlin to weave out of situations, make space for himself or buy himself time or space.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 25, 2020, 08:49:08 PM
Quote from: StephenC on June 25, 2020, 06:23:51 PM
That's the thing about most internet debates ... people retreat further and further back into their positions.

We now have on one side: COC is one of the premier forwards in Ireland, better than Murphy and McManus.
And on the other: COC wouldn't be the best forward on the Antrim team.

Isn't the reality that COC is a great forward (although filthy) and has demonstrated that over many years, and, his scoring record probably flatters him somewhat and he's not necessarily a better player than those lower on the scoring list.

Important to remember as well that he's just a young lad doing his best for his county. There's not too many on the board that can speak from a position of experience when it comes to IC football.

COC would not be as good a player as Matthew Fitzpatrick so no, I don't think he would be the best forward on the Antrim team.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Gael85 on June 25, 2020, 09:15:36 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on June 25, 2020, 06:56:03 PM
Mayo lacking scoring power to win any of their 2012,2013, 2016, 2017 finals is a bit of myth, Mayo problems in finals was self inflicted. A bad habit of conceding goals that were easy to avoid, goal keeping errors at key stages in games and OGs.

Mayos last final appearance 3 years ago had forwards that included the seasons top scorer Cillian O Connor and Andy Moran the footballer of the year yet Mayo still found a way to lose and Vaughan foolishly getting himself played a big part in that final defeat.

Would agree. Mayo always have habit conceding goals at vital times in finals. 2016 was a freak with 2 own goals. Other than Cafferkey in 2012 struggled at full back. Higgins beside him, a good footballer but probably too loose for corner back and caught out in big games. With half backs bombing forward needed a midfielder and possibly half forward dropping back to cover.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Lar Naparka on June 25, 2020, 11:01:16 PM
Here's one to keep the pot boiling...
David Brady (Balls.ie on Monday.) on Cillian O'Connor: "He's the best player I've seen put on a Mayo jersey, in every way, shape or form. There were some opportunities from frees in the dying moments, but they are not going to blur my opinion that he is Mayo's finest. He still has the ability and the longevity to go on.

His scoring capability, his goal-scoring, his link play, the way he commands winning the ball. They are signs of a special player and I do rate him as number one."

Agree? Disagree?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Manning18 on June 26, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 25, 2020, 06:30:23 PM
Quote from: StephenC on June 25, 2020, 06:23:51 PM
That's the thing about most internet debates ... people retreat further and further back into their positions.

We now have on one side: COC is one of the premier forwards in Ireland better than Murphy and McManus
And on the other: COC wouldn't be the best forward on the Antrim team.

Isn't the reality that COC is a great forward (although filthy) and has demonstrated that over many years, and, his scoring record probably flatters him somewhat and he's not necessarily a better player than those lower on the scoring list.

Important to remember as well that he's just a young lad doing his best for his county. There's not too many on the board that can speak from a position of experience when it comes to IC football.

I don't think anyone is saying it. Someone half read a sentence by rosnarun and others are responding to it. He states O'Connor is better at scoring. The stats back it up. Is there anyone really saying O'Connor is a better footballer than McManus or Murphy, don't think so.


You're the one misreading it. He said he'd take O'Connor on his team over Murphy or McManus. Whether that implies he's a better footballer or not, i dont know, but it's obviously ludicrous and it's hard to someone seriously if they're coming out with that.

He's not "better at scoring" than those two. He might be better at frees inside the 35 than those two (although dontfoul's stats are worth reading in that regard). Both the other two are far better scorer's from play. Murphy was a behemoth from his intro to IC football at 19, posting ridiculous returns from FF. He has to play out around the middle now out of necessity. McManus is double and treble marked regularly, generally plays in lower scoring games, generally plays with worse teammates in tougher games and has comparable scoring stats from play. There's very little padding of stats with 4 goals versus Limerick on his CV.

Cillian is a grand player. He's a consistent free taker and used to be a very good score getter, albiet that's tailing off. That's it. People who say he's useless are wrong, as are people who build him up to be a forward of the very top class. He's never had to deal with double marking (even at club level it's been a rarity once out of Mayo), and he's rarely on the oppositions top defender. He's has a very high scoring return largely through free and penalties, mostly won by others. His scoring rate in All Ireland finals now reads as 1 point per game from play on average, and has been held scoreless from play in 3 of them.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 09:05:06 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 25, 2020, 11:01:16 PM
Here's one to keep the pot boiling...
David Brady (Balls.ie on Monday.) on Cillian O'Connor: "He's the best player I've seen put on a Mayo jersey, in every way, shape or form. There were some opportunities from frees in the dying moments, but they are not going to blur my opinion that he is Mayo's finest. He still has the ability and the longevity to go on.

His scoring capability, his goal-scoring, his link play, the way he commands winning the ball. They are signs of a special player and I do rate him as number one."

Agree? Disagree?

His ball winning ability is sub standard, his movement is sub standard. I don't think you can deny his finishing abilities, he as excellent finisher but he also doesn't trust his left side, he will 9 times out of 10 try and get the ball on his right even when there is a good chance on his left. They are pretty big factors for a forward, O'Connor has been lucky to play in an excellent team where those limitations are not exposed as much they would have been if he didn't not have guys like Andy Moran and Doherty with their movement and ability to win that hard ball between the 45 yard line and the end line, if he did not have the likes of Keegan, Boyle, Higgins etc all breaking tackles and providing numbers over. It's the flat out intensity and tempo Mayo play at that has had them so close to beating Dublin in the past decade and has really made them the only team to consistently put the frighteners on them.

But O'Connor is just a finisher, a top forward needs so much more to his game and if he had to play on a team that didn't have guys pouring through the middle, that didn't have an Andy Moran inside creating space and causing wreck with his clever movement then O'Connor's limitations become more and more obvious.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on June 26, 2020, 09:15:39 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 25, 2020, 11:01:16 PM
Here's one to keep the pot boiling...
David Brady (Balls.ie on Monday.) on Cillian O'Connor: "He's the best player I've seen put on a Mayo jersey, in every way, shape or form. There were some opportunities from frees in the dying moments, but they are not going to blur my opinion that he is Mayo's finest. He still has the ability and the longevity to go on.

His scoring capability, his goal-scoring, his link play, the way he commands winning the ball. They are signs of a special player and I do rate him as number one."

Agree? Disagree?
I sont think id agree with that . Aidan o shea is the best player I have seen in a mayo short and the one that makes Difference between mayo being a good team and one that at least challenges for the All Ireland every year.
All Im saying about Cillain is he is the best  at what he does .
slightly older mayo fans will remember the years when we used up to 5 free takers in a match  because here was no one the to get 'Easy points'
the reality is there are no easy Points at the top Level Ask Dessie Dolan
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 09:18:14 AM
Quote from: Manning18 on June 26, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 25, 2020, 06:30:23 PM
Quote from: StephenC on June 25, 2020, 06:23:51 PM
That's the thing about most internet debates ... people retreat further and further back into their positions.

We now have on one side: COC is one of the premier forwards in Ireland better than Murphy and McManus
And on the other: COC wouldn't be the best forward on the Antrim team.

Isn't the reality that COC is a great forward (although filthy) and has demonstrated that over many years, and, his scoring record probably flatters him somewhat and he's not necessarily a better player than those lower on the scoring list.

Important to remember as well that he's just a young lad doing his best for his county. There's not too many on the board that can speak from a position of experience when it comes to IC football.

I don't think anyone is saying it. Someone half read a sentence by rosnarun and others are responding to it. He states O'Connor is better at scoring. The stats back it up. Is there anyone really saying O'Connor is a better footballer than McManus or Murphy, don't think so.


You're the one misreading it. He said he'd take O'Connor on his team over Murphy or McManus. Whether that implies he's a better footballer or not, i dont know, but it's obviously ludicrous and it's hard to someone seriously if they're coming out with that.

He's not "better at scoring" than those two. He might be better at frees inside the 35 than those two (although dontfoul's stats are worth reading in that regard). Both the other two are far better scorer's from play. Murphy was a behemoth from his intro to IC football at 19, posting ridiculous returns from FF. He has to play out around the middle now out of necessity. McManus is double and treble marked regularly, generally plays in lower scoring games, generally plays with worse teammates in tougher games and has comparable scoring stats from play. There's very little padding of stats with 4 goals versus Limerick on his CV.

Cillian is a grand player. He's a consistent free taker and used to be a very good score getter, albiet that's tailing off. That's it. People who say he's useless are wrong, as are people who build him up to be a forward of the very top class. He's never had to deal with double marking (even at club level it's been a rarity once out of Mayo), and he's rarely on the oppositions top defender. He's has a very high scoring return largely through free and penalties, mostly won by others. His scoring rate in All Ireland finals now reads as 1 point per game from play on average, and has been held scoreless from play in 3 of them.

That's bang on.

Has anyone here called him useless though? I don't think I've seen that term bandied about, the contention is that he is overrated and his scoring stats are ridiculously inflated due to the team he is on and the role he's been allowed play in that team - he would not come close to replicating them with any other county side in that time.

O'Connor is a finisher, a very good one, he puts in a good shift defensively from the front but he has a lot of limitations and he is a fair bit short of a top level forward, irrespective of what the scoring stats say.

A lot of the arguments people would have previously used from him was not to knock a free taker but you genuinely would be expecting a decent free taker to be hitting the type of return O'Connor is. I think what has arguably cost Mayo in recent years is that they are the only top county who do not have a free taker from each side. I don't think there are too many left footed players in their squad but surely they need to address it? I recall Kevin McLoughlin missing a 15 yard free in front of the posts against Tyrone in the 2013 semi final, think it was after the disallowed Freeman goal. Have they ever tried Aidan O'Shea on them, he's also left footed.

Whatever happened to Freeman btw? He gave Tyrone a torrid time in that semi final in 2013 and I can barely remember him featuring much after that, was he just a confidence player or was there a falling out? Freeman's performance in that game is the like of what you'd be expecting O'Connor to deliver but I've never seen a performance of that magnitude from O'Connor in a big game. I've never been able to say to myself after watching Mayo in a big game that O'Connor is causing wreck in there, he's usually there to finish when the guys like Keegan, Moran, Higgins, Doherty are the ones causing the problems.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 09:20:52 AM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 26, 2020, 09:15:39 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 25, 2020, 11:01:16 PM
Here's one to keep the pot boiling...
David Brady (Balls.ie on Monday.) on Cillian O'Connor: "He's the best player I've seen put on a Mayo jersey, in every way, shape or form. There were some opportunities from frees in the dying moments, but they are not going to blur my opinion that he is Mayo's finest. He still has the ability and the longevity to go on.

His scoring capability, his goal-scoring, his link play, the way he commands winning the ball. They are signs of a special player and I do rate him as number one."

Agree? Disagree?
I sont think id agree with that . Aidan o shea is the best player I have seen in a mayo short and the one that makes Difference between mayo being a good team and one that at least challenges for the All Ireland every year.
All Im saying about Cillain is he is the best  at what he does .
slightly older mayo fans will remember the years when we used up to 5 free takers in a match  because here was no one the to get 'Easy points'
the reality is there are no easy Points at the top Level Ask Dessie Dolan

AOS is another Mayo player who you guys needed far more from down the years.

It's Keegan, Higgins, Moran, Durcan, Boyle, Barrett, Parsons, Diarmuid O'Connor, Doherty, McLoughlin, Clarke, Seamus O'Shea - it's those guys who have been the main men time and time again for Mayo down the years.

I think O'Connor gets the most out of himself but his limitations are very obvious, AOS on the other hand is capable of so much more but just doesn't do it on anywhere near enough of a consistent level.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Manning18 on June 26, 2020, 09:58:01 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 09:18:14 AM


Has anyone here called him useless though? I don't think I've seen that term bandied about, the contention is that he is overrated and his scoring stats are ridiculously inflated due to the team he is on and the role he's been allowed play in that team - he would not come close to replicating them with any other county side in that time.


Nah noone here has called him useless. You'd hear him called that a lot by Dublin fans etc, , or on twitter or pub talk. He gets opposition fans ire up with his sportsmanship so theyre more inclined to have a proper pop at him. Of course its nonsense, hes a good player, probably in the 10-20 range somewhere of forwards in Ireland in the last 10 years, with his position being achieved through longevity, consistency and obviously freetaking. Ive seen the odd suggestion from Mayo fans, generally after losses, that they shouldn't be starting him. That's more nonsense but it crops up now and again. Makes ya think though
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 11:39:48 AM
Quote from: Manning18 on June 26, 2020, 09:58:01 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 09:18:14 AM


Has anyone here called him useless though? I don't think I've seen that term bandied about, the contention is that he is overrated and his scoring stats are ridiculously inflated due to the team he is on and the role he's been allowed play in that team - he would not come close to replicating them with any other county side in that time.


Nah noone here has called him useless. You'd hear him called that a lot by Dublin fans etc, , or on twitter or pub talk. He gets opposition fans ire up with his sportsmanship so theyre more inclined to have a proper pop at him. Of course its nonsense, hes a good player, probably in the 10-20 range somewhere of forwards in Ireland in the last 10 years, with his position being achieved through longevity, consistency and obviously freetaking. Ive seen the odd suggestion from Mayo fans, generally after losses, that they shouldn't be starting him. That's more nonsense but it crops up now and again. Makes ya think though

I genuinely think he'd struggle to start in most other top counties. Another issue for Mayo in the past few years has been their bench, they have 12-13 players who would be pretty much nailed on starters for any team outside of Dublin, no other county in that time would probably have that but their bench has always been light. You look at it through the years - guys like Conroy, Varley, Carolan, Feeney, Loftus, Keane, Conor O'Shea, Regan, Drake etc - they just haven't had that depth there and that's part of the reason why O'Connor is able to hit those big scores in Mayo. His position is not under threat, if he's quiet or having a bad day, he's not going to be hooked, they want him for his frees and finishing and the options on the bench aren't going to offer a huge upgrade from play.

That's why I gave the Armagh example, Armagh have guys like O'Neill, Grugan and Grimley who are good free takers and can also offer more from play than O'Connor - then they have other really good forwards who are better from play than O'Connor like Clarke, Murnin, Campbell and a few others. I think he'd really struggle to earn his place with them - that's just an example.

I'd say something similar for Donegal too, is he going to give you more than Jamie Brennan or McBrearty inside? I don't think so, they already have Murphy for frees.

I couldn't see him making the Kerry or Dublin teams, they have more dangerous forwards than O'Connor from play and already have solid reliable free takers.

Unless his free taking was faultless I think he'd have been in and out of the Tyrone team over the past number of years, McCurry, McAliskey and Bradley are all more dangerous from play and on last season's form McShane is a top level inside forward.

He's a very good finisher and decent free taker but his limitations are very obvious and very restricting.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Maroon Manc on June 26, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
Angelo is taking this too far, not a big fan of him on the pitch but you must have made over 20 posts on him in the last week.

He's got the scores on the board and is the all time top championship scorer, he's not blessed with the ability that many of the top forwards have but he does a brilliant goal scoring record and has that knack of been in the right place at the right time and deserves credit for that. Whether he'd score them playing for a lesser team we'll never know. There's been times in finals where Mayo have been on top like the first half of 17 final and its been crying out for a forward to take control and hammer home their advantage but he's not been able to do that, he had some bad misses during that first 35 minutes.

I've been a lot of Mayo games the last decade and seen first hand what he's like, the last 4 or 5 years he's a different player and seems to be hankering for an argument; He's certainly not a lethal with the frees as he used to be and think don't foul's stats on twitter back that up.

As for David Brady he's a very likeable fella but he comes out with a lot of daft comments, this been the latest one.



Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on June 26, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
Angelo is taking this too far, not a big fan of him on the pitch but you must have made over 20 posts on him in the last week.

He's got the scores on the board and is the all time top championship scorer, he's not blessed with the ability that many of the top forwards have but he does a brilliant goal scoring record and has that knack of been in the right place at the right time and deserves credit for that. Whether he'd score them playing for a lesser team we'll never know. There's been times in finals where Mayo have been on top like the first half of 17 final and its been crying out for a forward to take control and hammer home their advantage but he's not been able to do that, he had some bad misses during that first 35 minutes.

I've been a lot of Mayo games the last decade and seen first hand what he's like, the last 4 or 5 years he's a different player and seems to be hankering for an argument; He's certainly not a lethal with the frees as he used to be and think don't foul's stats on twitter back that up.

As for David Brady he's a very likeable fella but he comes out with a lot of daft comments, this been the latest one.

Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

His scoring stats are inflated by us not having a left footed free taker but even allowing for that his record from play stands up against most top forwards. He gets all kinds of scores, many of which he engineers himself. I pointed out the Tyrone game in 2016, but you dismissed that as a one off. Donegal in 2013 was pointed out (the 1-1 he got in the competitive stages of the 1st half was brilliantly finished with his left foot) but seemingly because it turned into a rout it doesn't matter. He got a brilliant individual equaliser at the end of the 2016 final and got several excellent scores in the 2017 semi-final and final. Also the 1st half point vs Dublin last year. 

He is also far from a passenger in general play. He was the one who won the ball and set up Conor Loftus for the goal against Derry a few years ago. Also this score against Galway last summer...

https://twitter.com/officialgaa/status/1147582983907528706?s=19

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.

It goes without saying he wouldn't be as prolific for a division 4 team - neither would Gooch, Murphy, McManus, Brogan etc etc. But mayo were well off the national pace before Cillian came along. In 2010 we lost to Sligo an Longford. In 2011 we were about to be knocked out by London before Cillian came off the bench for his debut to help steady the ship.
Later that summer he got another brilliant solo score with the goal against Kerry.

No doubt that won't satisfy you either of course.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 02:20:24 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

His scoring stats are inflated by us not having a left footed free taker but even allowing for that his record from play stands up against most top forwards. He gets all kinds of scores, many of which he engineers himself. I pointed out the Tyrone game in 2016, but you dismissed that as a one off. Donegal in 2013 was pointed out (the 1-1 he got in the competitive stages of the 1st half was brilliantly finished with his left foot) but seemingly because it turned into a rout it doesn't matter. He got a brilliant individual equaliser at the end of the 2016 final and got several excellent scores in the 2017 semi-final and final. Also the 1st half point vs Dublin last year. 

He is also far from a passenger in general play. He was the one who won the ball and set up Conor Loftus for the goal against Derry a few years ago. Also this score against Galway last summer...

https://twitter.com/officialgaa/status/1147582983907528706?s=19

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.

It goes without saying he wouldn't be as prolific for a division 4 team - neither would Gooch, Murphy, McManus, Brogan etc etc. But mayo were well off the national pace before Cillian came along. In 2010 we lost to Sligo an Longford. In 2011 we were about to be knocked out by London before Cillian came off the bench for his debut to help steady the ship.
Later that summer he got another brilliant solo score with the goal against Kerry.

No doubt that won't satisfy you either of course.

Valid criticism of a footballer is not taking too far, it's nothing personal at all, I have seen O'Connor play and he's not a top class forward and he's a good bit off that. I've explained my reasoning and it's all completely valid and rational.

Of course his scoring record is great, of course it is good from play - look at the team he plays in, the players he has played with and the role he has played for them. He's in that team to finish, he's not the focal point - he's not a McManus, Murphy or McDonnell - guys who have to win the hard ball themselves, who have to swat off three of four men to buy them that space. O'Connor has the luxury that others will create that space for him, that time for him. All the aforementioned were the focal points of their teams attack, Andy Moran was that focal point for Mayo and was a real top drawer forward.

O'Connor would be a similar type player to Colm McFadden, just a level or two below him in terms of ability.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Manning18 on June 26, 2020, 02:22:11 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.


You ask who is proclaiming him as a top forward? That's been the entire theme of the thread. One of your comrades is claiming they'd take him over Michael Murphy and Conor McManus. You then spend paragraphs trying to defend him as if he were a top forward.

The 3 scores you mentioned there? Kerry score had 1-3 out of the 2-5 from placed balls in 100 mins, with the other goal being a tap in. The middle score doesnt exist. The last 1-9 mentioned v Dublin was all from placed balls. If you're trying to argue that he's a good freetaker (inside 35) or penalty taker, noone is arguing with you there
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: dublin7 on June 26, 2020, 02:23:47 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 25, 2020, 09:15:36 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on June 25, 2020, 06:56:03 PM
Mayo lacking scoring power to win any of their 2012,2013, 2016, 2017 finals is a bit of myth, Mayo problems in finals was self inflicted. A bad habit of conceding goals that were easy to avoid, goal keeping errors at key stages in games and OGs.

Mayos last final appearance 3 years ago had forwards that included the seasons top scorer Cillian O Connor and Andy Moran the footballer of the year yet Mayo still found a way to lose and Vaughan foolishly getting himself played a big part in that final defeat.

Would agree. Mayo always have habit conceding goals at vital times in finals. 2016 was a freak with 2 own goals. Other than Cafferkey in 2012 struggled at full back. Higgins beside him, a good footballer but probably too loose for corner back and caught out in big games. With half backs bombing forward needed a midfielder and possibly half forward dropping back to cover.

One benefit of Covid 19 was most of those matches were replayed on tv over the last few months. There's a common theme in these games (excluding Mayo screw ups). Mayo tended to dominate the 1st halves but their territorial/possession advantage was never reflected on the scoreboard. Dublin with their superior forwards always did enough to keep them in touch.  In 2017/2o18 it was Andy Moran leading Mayo and not COC in the forwards. Everything went through him as the target man/leader of the forwards. COC hasn't got the strength/pace to win his own ball against top defenders and needs the likes of McLoughlin/Moran or half backs coming forward to do the work for him and create space.

Any year Mayo reached the final COC was probably the top scorer, but that's not a surprise as he is the teams free taker. As the freetaker no one is going to get close to him unless they bang in goals every game. You would expect to kick 4 points just from frees every game. It's not a coincidence that the top scorers in the football championship last year - Cathal McShane, Dean Rock & Sean O'Shea are the regular freetakers for their team just like COC. If the top scorers were based on scores from play only the table would have a far different look.

Obviously a pointed free is the same as a point from play, but I'd argue the previous 3 all contribute more from play for their team than COC the last few years.   
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 02:29:46 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on June 26, 2020, 02:23:47 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on June 25, 2020, 09:15:36 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on June 25, 2020, 06:56:03 PM
Mayo lacking scoring power to win any of their 2012,2013, 2016, 2017 finals is a bit of myth, Mayo problems in finals was self inflicted. A bad habit of conceding goals that were easy to avoid, goal keeping errors at key stages in games and OGs.

Mayos last final appearance 3 years ago had forwards that included the seasons top scorer Cillian O Connor and Andy Moran the footballer of the year yet Mayo still found a way to lose and Vaughan foolishly getting himself played a big part in that final defeat.

Would agree. Mayo always have habit conceding goals at vital times in finals. 2016 was a freak with 2 own goals. Other than Cafferkey in 2012 struggled at full back. Higgins beside him, a good footballer but probably too loose for corner back and caught out in big games. With half backs bombing forward needed a midfielder and possibly half forward dropping back to cover.

One benefit of Covid 19 was most of those matches were replayed on tv over the last few months. There's a common theme in these games (excluding Mayo screw ups). Mayo tended to dominate the 1st halves but their territorial/possession advantage was never reflected on the scoreboard. Dublin with their superior forwards always did enough to keep them in touch.  In 2017/2o18 it was Andy Moran leading Mayo and not COC in the forwards. Everything went through him as the target man/leader of the forwards. COC hasn't got the strength/pace to win his own ball against top defenders and needs the likes of McLoughlin/Moran or half backs coming forward to do the work for him and create space.

Any year Mayo reached the final COC was probably the top scorer, but that's not a surprise as he is the teams free taker. As the freetaker no one is going to get close to him unless they bang in goals every game. You would expect to kick 4 points just from frees every game. It's not a coincidence that the top scorers in the football championship last year - Cathal McShane, Dean Rock & Sean O'Shea are the regular freetakers for their team just like COC. If the top scorers were based on scores from play only the table would have a far different look.

Obviously a pointed free is the same as a point from play, but I'd argue the previous 3 all contribute more from play for their team than COC the last few years.

O'Connor also has the caveat of taking all frees for Mayo, Kerry have Clifford for the right sided frees, Dublin Mannion, Tyrone Harte, Morgan also takes the long range frees and 45s. Donegal have McBrearty etc.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 02:41:09 PM
Quote from: Manning18 on June 26, 2020, 02:22:11 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.


You ask who is proclaiming him as a top forward? That's been the entire theme of the thread. One of your comrades is claiming they'd take him over Michael Murphy and Conor McManus. You then spend paragraphs trying to defend him as if he were a top forward.

The 3 scores you mentioned there? Kerry score had 1-3 out of the 2-5 from placed balls in 100 mins, with the other goal being a tap in. The middle score doesnt exist. The last 1-9 mentioned v Dublin was all from placed balls. If you're trying to argue that he's a good freetaker (inside 35) or penalty taker, noone is arguing with you there

Surely for somebody to be overrated there must be national pundits praising him constantly? Not a couple of posters on gaaboard. I consider him a top forward but that's my opinion of course. The main reason I posted all that previously was to debunk Angelo's theories of him being a weak link on the team.

He also won that penalty vs Kerry. Mea culpa, it was only 1-6 he got in that other game vs Dublin.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 02:59:54 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 02:41:09 PM
Quote from: Manning18 on June 26, 2020, 02:22:11 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.


You ask who is proclaiming him as a top forward? That's been the entire theme of the thread. One of your comrades is claiming they'd take him over Michael Murphy and Conor McManus. You then spend paragraphs trying to defend him as if he were a top forward.

The 3 scores you mentioned there? Kerry score had 1-3 out of the 2-5 from placed balls in 100 mins, with the other goal being a tap in. The middle score doesnt exist. The last 1-9 mentioned v Dublin was all from placed balls. If you're trying to argue that he's a good freetaker (inside 35) or penalty taker, noone is arguing with you there

Surely for somebody to be overrated there must be national pundits praising him constantly? Not a couple of posters on gaaboard. I consider him a top forward but that's my opinion of course. The main reason I posted all that previously was to debunk Angelo's theories of him being a weak link on the team.

He also won that penalty vs Kerry. Mea culpa, it was only 1-6 he got in that other game vs Dublin.

National pundits do talk him up, somebody posted up David Brady calling him Mayo's greatest players. He's regularly talked of as a top forward, for me he's the weak link in that Mayo forward line and it's guys like Doherty, Diarmuid O'Connor and McLoughlin who are criminally underrated.

O'Connor is the guy I see on that Mayo team and the one I look at and say they need more from. He can finish but they could do with him winning more ball, creating his own chances, making space for others with his movement. The top players can do all of that as well as finish and that is why he's not a top forward.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 03:55:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 02:59:54 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 02:41:09 PM
Quote from: Manning18 on June 26, 2020, 02:22:11 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.


You ask who is proclaiming him as a top forward? That's been the entire theme of the thread. One of your comrades is claiming they'd take him over Michael Murphy and Conor McManus. You then spend paragraphs trying to defend him as if he were a top forward.

The 3 scores you mentioned there? Kerry score had 1-3 out of the 2-5 from placed balls in 100 mins, with the other goal being a tap in. The middle score doesnt exist. The last 1-9 mentioned v Dublin was all from placed balls. If you're trying to argue that he's a good freetaker (inside 35) or penalty taker, noone is arguing with you there

Surely for somebody to be overrated there must be national pundits praising him constantly? Not a couple of posters on gaaboard. I consider him a top forward but that's my opinion of course. The main reason I posted all that previously was to debunk Angelo's theories of him being a weak link on the team.

He also won that penalty vs Kerry. Mea culpa, it was only 1-6 he got in that other game vs Dublin.

National pundits do talk him up, somebody posted up David Brady calling him Mayo's greatest players. He's regularly talked of as a top forward, for me he's the weak link in that Mayo forward line and it's guys like Doherty, Diarmuid O'Connor and McLoughlin who are criminally underrated.

O'Connor is the guy I see on that Mayo team and the one I look at and say they need more from. He can finish but they could do with him winning more ball, creating his own chances, making space for others with his movement. The top players can do all of that as well as finish and that is why he's not a top forward.

I mean, they obviously talk about him sometimes. It's pretty hard to avoid when he's scoring hat tricks and last minute equalisers in an all Ireland final. He never never gets the same praise of other top forwards in the country. Brady is an entertaining guy to listen to, but as a pundit he always wants to say something controversial. Having Keegan number 1 wouldn't have grabbed anyone's attention.

I posted numerous examples previously of him creating his own chances and setting up others. It's no use with you though. The cork game in 2017 is another example. I doubt any Armagh forwards have had a better performance than that in the last decade. I obviously haven't checked this but I'd guess around half of Lee Keegan's scores have been set up by Cillian.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 04:07:30 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 03:55:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 02:59:54 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 02:41:09 PM
Quote from: Manning18 on June 26, 2020, 02:22:11 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.


You ask who is proclaiming him as a top forward? That's been the entire theme of the thread. One of your comrades is claiming they'd take him over Michael Murphy and Conor McManus. You then spend paragraphs trying to defend him as if he were a top forward.

The 3 scores you mentioned there? Kerry score had 1-3 out of the 2-5 from placed balls in 100 mins, with the other goal being a tap in. The middle score doesnt exist. The last 1-9 mentioned v Dublin was all from placed balls. If you're trying to argue that he's a good freetaker (inside 35) or penalty taker, noone is arguing with you there

Surely for somebody to be overrated there must be national pundits praising him constantly? Not a couple of posters on gaaboard. I consider him a top forward but that's my opinion of course. The main reason I posted all that previously was to debunk Angelo's theories of him being a weak link on the team.

He also won that penalty vs Kerry. Mea culpa, it was only 1-6 he got in that other game vs Dublin.

National pundits do talk him up, somebody posted up David Brady calling him Mayo's greatest players. He's regularly talked of as a top forward, for me he's the weak link in that Mayo forward line and it's guys like Doherty, Diarmuid O'Connor and McLoughlin who are criminally underrated.

O'Connor is the guy I see on that Mayo team and the one I look at and say they need more from. He can finish but they could do with him winning more ball, creating his own chances, making space for others with his movement. The top players can do all of that as well as finish and that is why he's not a top forward.

I mean, they obviously talk about him sometimes. It's pretty hard to avoid when he's scoring hat tricks and last minute equalisers in an all Ireland final. He never never gets the same praise of other top forwards in the country. Brady is an entertaining guy to listen to, but as a pundit he always wants to say something controversial. Having Keegan number 1 wouldn't have grabbed anyone's attention.

I posted numerous examples previously of him creating his own chances and setting up others. It's no use with you though. The cork game in 2017 is another example. I doubt any Armagh forwards have had a better performance than that in the last decade. I obviously haven't checked this but I'd guess around half of Lee Keegan's scores have been set up by Cillian.

That's because he's not a top forward. He doesn't win enough ball, his movement is not clever enough, he doesn't have the pace, power and trickery to create that time of space, nor does he has the speed of thought to create things out of nothing, he's not strong enough off his weaker side. These are the traits that set the top class forwards apart from guys like O'Connor, Andy Moran had an awful lot of those traits.

I think you'll find most of Lee Keegans scores are created for by Lee Keegan himself. He's the guy bursting from the half back line, breaking challenges, beating men and running 60 or 70 yards at full pelt to get on the end.

Stefan Campbell reached a level of performance last year AGAINST Mayo that I have never see Cillian O'Connor reach in his entire career. I haven't watched a Mayo game where O'Connor has been the best Mayo player on the pitch never mind the best player on the pitch.

O'Connor would remind me a lot of Dara O'Cinneide, a decent player and a very good finisher but O'Cinneide was never a player who was going to destroy a team in a huge game, he was never a go to man for Kerry. He was in that team because we was reliable from the placed ball and he was a decent finisher who put some scores on the board but he wasn't someone who was going to cause panic in the oppositions ranks.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 04:48:52 PM
I've given numerous examples of him scoring and creating things off scraps but you won't acknowledge that. You just make these arbitrary comments like - I've never seen a mayo game when he was the dominant player. Or I've never seen him get 3 quick fire points at the end of a qualifier game (when his team needed a goal) like some Armagh forward.

Anyway that's me out.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 05:49:18 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 04:48:52 PM
I've given numerous examples of him scoring and creating things off scraps but you won't acknowledge that. You just make these arbitrary comments like - I've never seen a mayo game when he was the dominant player. Or I've never seen him get 3 quick fire points at the end of a qualifier game (when his team needed a goal) like some Armagh forward.

Anyway that's me out.

No you have reeled off a load of scores he kicked and they have generally been handy frees and tap in goals where the work was all done by others.

I haven't seen him be the main man for Mayo, I've never seen him be the go to man, the guy who consistenly wins the hard ball, has the play all go through him. He's not capable of delivering a performance like McManus did in the Ulster final against Donegal where he had Neil McGee man marking him and two or three more Donegal players around him anytime he got the ball and yet was still able to kick sensational scores.

O'Connor is a Dara O'Cinneide type player. He's a good finisher but he's not able to survive by himself - everything depends on the service he receives.

Campbell last year against Mayo was demanding the ball, picking it up deep, driving at players and kicking long range points off both feet, this was in the crunch of the game. That is what you expect of top level forwards, it's not something I've seen from O'Connor.

You think he's a top class forward but you'll just reel off a game he got a lot of scores in, the problem is when you look at those games he's there to finish off the work of others.

He might be a top level finisher but a top level forward is about an awful lot more than his finishing, when I saw him inside beside Moran the difference is night and day.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Gael85 on August 02, 2020, 03:57:04 PM
Another red card for Cillian O'Connor

http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/311692?fbclid=IwAR3qDBnzOF_wbX3QTpd-SKrzGctWI9Iz768T0peVjZRwJfDD4-cxf0O6flk
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: giveballaghback on August 12, 2020, 01:40:57 PM
Who will have the pleasure of giving Cillian the golden boot, I am sure there are many that would oblige including many of his own county men. Such a lovely sporting fellow ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on August 14, 2020, 03:53:31 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on August 02, 2020, 03:57:04 PM
Another red card for Cillian O'Connor

http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/311692?fbclid=IwAR3qDBnzOF_wbX3QTpd-SKrzGctWI9Iz768T0peVjZRwJfDD4-cxf0O6flk
and it was recinded . I suppose an apology would be too much to ask for
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Cavan19 on August 14, 2020, 04:54:05 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on August 14, 2020, 03:53:31 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on August 02, 2020, 03:57:04 PM
Another red card for Cillian O'Connor

http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/311692?fbclid=IwAR3qDBnzOF_wbX3QTpd-SKrzGctWI9Iz768T0peVjZRwJfDD4-cxf0O6flk
and it was recinded . I suppose an apology would be too much to ask for

What would you want an apology for?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Gael85 on August 14, 2020, 08:34:12 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on August 14, 2020, 03:53:31 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on August 02, 2020, 03:57:04 PM
Another red card for Cillian O'Connor

http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/311692?fbclid=IwAR3qDBnzOF_wbX3QTpd-SKrzGctWI9Iz768T0peVjZRwJfDD4-cxf0O6flk
and it was recinded . I suppose an apology would be too much to ask for

It was only rescinded on a technicality as referee didn't sign the teamsheet.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: dublin7 on August 14, 2020, 09:06:34 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on August 14, 2020, 08:34:12 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on August 14, 2020, 03:53:31 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on August 02, 2020, 03:57:04 PM
Another red card for Cillian O'Connor

http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/311692?fbclid=IwAR3qDBnzOF_wbX3QTpd-SKrzGctWI9Iz768T0peVjZRwJfDD4-cxf0O6flk
and it was recinded . I suppose an apology would be too much to ask for

It was only rescinded on a technicality as referee didn't sign the teamsheet.

GAA disciplinary process summed up perfectly in one line.

Clubs/Counties (All over the country)  appealing clear red cards not because the red card was issued in error, but because the ref might have made a spelling mistake in his report, not dotted an i or crossed a t.

It really is a joke how so many suspensions are overturned for the most farcical of reasons.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Farrandeelin on August 18, 2020, 07:45:58 AM
Cards overturned left, right and centre last night in Mayo. Seems a farce to be honest.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Gael85 on August 18, 2020, 09:32:52 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on August 18, 2020, 07:45:58 AM
Cards overturned left, right and centre last night in Mayo. Seems a farce to be honest.

Happening in every county. Did you see the red card Austin Gleeson got rescinded? And then sent off again at weekend.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: reillycavan on December 06, 2020, 08:33:41 PM
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/cillian-oconnor-record-breaker-tipperary-fairytale-ends-221290

Cillian display today should put  him as front runner for player of year and nailed on All Star.  Having a great season since league/championship resumed.  Seems to have overcome discipline issues and enjoying his football again.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 06, 2020, 08:44:55 PM
Quote from: reillycavan on December 06, 2020, 08:33:41 PM
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/cillian-oconnor-record-breaker-tipperary-fairytale-ends-221290

Cillian display today should put  him as front runner for player of year and nailed on All Star.  Having a great season since league/championship resumed.  Seems to have overcome discipline issues and enjoying his football again.

Yellow carded today
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: From the Bunker on December 06, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
Still not a Marquee Forward! If he played for Galway, Kerry or Dublin he would be! Mayo don't produce forwards!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: WhoDat on December 06, 2020, 09:01:44 PM
don't really understand the lack of respect people have for this chap. he lost a bit of form there for a couple of years, but he was an incredible young player and his early seasons in the senior mayo set up were terrific. he seems to have rediscovered that form this year. he's having some season and if mayo finish the job, i'd say he'll get POTY. he seems integral to the mayo set up, on and off the field. and ultimately, the numbers don't lie.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: The Trap on December 06, 2020, 09:11:07 PM
He wont get POTY if Dublin win the final......Dean Rock, Brian Fenton, Ciaran Kilkenny, James McCarthy etc. having great years with opponents unable to get close to them.......unless he does something like score 2 8 in an heroic loss......but I just cant see Dublin letting him do that......ultimate test for all of the Mayo young players too.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: SouthDublinBro on December 06, 2020, 09:13:33 PM
By all means hype him up again before the final.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: reillycavan on December 06, 2020, 09:17:35 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on December 06, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
Still not a Marquee Forward! If he played for Galway, Kerry or Dublin he would be! Mayo don't produce forwards!

Off  course he a marque forward. Tommy Goals Conroy is a class act too.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 06, 2020, 09:19:59 PM
He was brilliant today.

Against Tipperary.

In a blitzreig team performance.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: WhoDat on December 06, 2020, 09:21:47 PM
Quote from: The Trap on December 06, 2020, 09:11:07 PM
He wont get POTY if Dublin win the final......Dean Rock, Brian Fenton, Ciaran Kilkenny, James McCarthy etc. having great years with opponents unable to get close to them.......unless he does something like score 2 8 in an heroic loss......but I just cant see Dublin letting him do that......ultimate test for all of the Mayo young players too.

that's why i said, if mayo finish the job, he'll get it
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on December 07, 2020, 01:10:38 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on December 06, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
Still not a Marquee Forward! If he played for Galway, Kerry or Dublin he would be! Mayo don't produce forwards!

A lot of talk about "once in a generation" this weekend. Cillian is certainly that and may not be fully appreciated until he's gone.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Halfquarter on December 07, 2020, 09:30:56 AM
Quote from: The Trap on December 06, 2020, 09:11:07 PM
He wont get POTY if Dublin win the final......Dean Rock, Brian Fenton, Ciaran Kilkenny, James McCarthy etc. having great years with opponents unable to get close to them.......unless he does something like score 2 8 in an heroic loss......but I just cant see Dublin letting him do that......ultimate test for all of the Mayo young players too.

I think O'Connor might get it, people are fed up of Dublin winning everything 😀
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: whitey on December 07, 2020, 10:23:33 AM
Out of curiosity how much did the Gooch ever score from play against Dublin?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: 6th sam on December 07, 2020, 07:13:54 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on December 06, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
Still not a Marquee Forward! If he played for Galway, Kerry or Dublin he would be! Mayo don't produce forwards!
Probably the best finisher in the history of the game, not a "marquee forward" in the mould of Gooch, Canavan whose skill level sets them apart , but he's a different type of a player.  What Mayo have added is a couple of great decision making forwards . O'Connor's decision making has improved further and O'SHEA is now even more effective.
What distinguishes this Mayo team from previous finalist teams , is that their tactics, decision making are now as good as Dublin's . Hunger, freshness, and more quality players , makes them a serious threat , given that Dublin were lucky to beat them before.
I think this could be Mayo's year
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: The Trap on December 07, 2020, 09:49:14 PM
I predict egg on our face 6th Sam......I would love to see you right though and for Mayo to finally win.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: The Trap on December 07, 2020, 09:50:38 PM
I predict egg on your face 6th Sam......I think Dean Rock is better........hope you are right and Mayo finally win but I just cant see it.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: restorepride on December 07, 2020, 10:38:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 02:59:54 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 02:41:09 PM
Quote from: Manning18 on June 26, 2020, 02:22:11 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.


You ask who is proclaiming him as a top forward? That's been the entire theme of the thread. One of your comrades is claiming they'd take him over Michael Murphy and Conor McManus. You then spend paragraphs trying to defend him as if he were a top forward.

The 3 scores you mentioned there? Kerry score had 1-3 out of the 2-5 from placed balls in 100 mins, with the other goal being a tap in. The middle score doesnt exist. The last 1-9 mentioned v Dublin was all from placed balls. If you're trying to argue that he's a good freetaker (inside 35) or penalty taker, noone is arguing with you there

Surely for somebody to be overrated there must be national pundits praising him constantly? Not a couple of posters on gaaboard. I consider him a top forward but that's my opinion of course. The main reason I posted all that previously was to debunk Angelo's theories of him being a weak link on the team.

He also won that penalty vs Kerry. Mea culpa, it was only 1-6 he got in that other game vs Dublin.

National pundits do talk him up, somebody posted up David Brady calling him Mayo's greatest players. He's regularly talked of as a top forward, for me he's the weak link in that Mayo forward line and it's guys like Doherty, Diarmuid O'Connor and McLoughlin who are criminally underrated.

O'Connor is the guy I see on that Mayo team and the one I look at and say they need more from. He can finish but they could do with him winning more ball, creating his own chances, making space for others with his movement. The top players can do all of that as well as finish and that is why he's not a top forward.
Shows you how much some people know about football.   Even less knowledge about top forwards.  Mór mo bhrón!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 08, 2020, 09:52:09 AM
Quote from: restorepride on December 07, 2020, 10:38:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 02:59:54 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 02:41:09 PM
Quote from: Manning18 on June 26, 2020, 02:22:11 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.


You ask who is proclaiming him as a top forward? That's been the entire theme of the thread. One of your comrades is claiming they'd take him over Michael Murphy and Conor McManus. You then spend paragraphs trying to defend him as if he were a top forward.

The 3 scores you mentioned there? Kerry score had 1-3 out of the 2-5 from placed balls in 100 mins, with the other goal being a tap in. The middle score doesnt exist. The last 1-9 mentioned v Dublin was all from placed balls. If you're trying to argue that he's a good freetaker (inside 35) or penalty taker, noone is arguing with you there

Surely for somebody to be overrated there must be national pundits praising him constantly? Not a couple of posters on gaaboard. I consider him a top forward but that's my opinion of course. The main reason I posted all that previously was to debunk Angelo's theories of him being a weak link on the team.

He also won that penalty vs Kerry. Mea culpa, it was only 1-6 he got in that other game vs Dublin.

National pundits do talk him up, somebody posted up David Brady calling him Mayo's greatest players. He's regularly talked of as a top forward, for me he's the weak link in that Mayo forward line and it's guys like Doherty, Diarmuid O'Connor and McLoughlin who are criminally underrated.

O'Connor is the guy I see on that Mayo team and the one I look at and say they need more from. He can finish but they could do with him winning more ball, creating his own chances, making space for others with his movement. The top players can do all of that as well as finish and that is why he's not a top forward.
Shows you how much some people know about football.   Even less knowledge about top forwards.  Mór mo bhrón!

We've been here before when O'Connor has scored a hateful against the likes of Limerick and London in blitzreig team performances by Mayo.

He got one good goal. The rest were all laid on a plate for him.

The proof will be in the pudding in the final. I'm not surprised to see a clown like you lose his shit over a performance against Tipp.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on December 08, 2020, 10:54:16 AM
And of course a hatful against Reigning all Ireland Champions Donegal
Hes the best forward in the Game Bar none
being a great forward is about Scoring not about being flash and Cillain has score more than anyone ever ,
dean rock is a fantastic player but has not score nearly as much in a bigger weaker province
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Rossfan on December 08, 2020, 10:59:16 AM
And Cillian refs a lot of games as well.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 08, 2020, 12:08:35 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on December 08, 2020, 10:54:16 AM
And of course a hatful against Reigning all Ireland Champions Donegal
Hes the best forward in the Game Bar none
being a great forward is about Scoring not about being flash and Cillain has score more than anyone ever ,
dean rock is a fantastic player but has not score nearly as much in a bigger weaker province

Donegal was another blitzreig performance from Mayo.

If you look at the goals against Tipp, there were Mayo players queuing to put the ball in the net. It's what Mayo do so well when they are at full pelt, they overwhelm you with runners through the middle. O'Connor is a great finisher and when his team utterly dominate an inferior opponent as they did on Sunday, he will score heavily.

But in tighter more cagier affairs where his marker is actually able to mark him rather than having to vacate his duty to confront one of the many Mayo players coming steaming through then he struggles, quite badly in fact.

I'd have the boy Conroy ahead of O'Connor. You look at the frees Conroy wins, you look at the points he gets, the goal he set up. He can win the ball, he can take players on and beat them and he can take his scores. O'Connor is a finisher so in the big games, it really relies on his team creating the chances for him. Conroy is able to engineer his own chances and in a tight affair like the Galway game a few weeks back it was Conroy who showed up more.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: reillycavan on December 08, 2020, 12:11:36 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 08, 2020, 10:59:16 AM
And Cillian refs a lot of games as well.

Nonsense.  No need to be so bitter. What county are you from?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on December 08, 2020, 01:57:25 PM
I'd have the boy Conroy ahead of O'Connor

Of course you would.

Why you would do this though, has absolutely nothing to with assessing their football abilities.

I suspect you always walk up the down escalator just to to amuse yourself.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 08, 2020, 02:15:13 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 08, 2020, 01:57:25 PM
I'd have the boy Conroy ahead of O'Connor

Of course you would.

Why you would do this though, has absolutely nothing to with assessing their football abilities.

I suspect you always walk up the down escalator just to to amuse yourself.

Everything to do with his football abilities. O'Connor is great man to take the plaudits for great team performances but in the tight cagey affairs he goes missing, he does it time and time again.

I've outlined my reasons why, Conroy is the type of player who can win his own ball, take players on and beat them, who can create scores and take them.

O'Connor is an excellent finisher but he can't do that.

My only reasons are footballing ones, your issue seem to be your inability to understand the game. You look at the scorers and make your mind up but your actual footballing IQ is non-existent.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: WhoDat on December 14, 2020, 01:55:14 AM
i refuse to believe that anyone who thinks o'connor "goes missing" in big games has ever actually watched him in a big game.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 10:20:20 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Can you remove the tap over frees the real stars of that Mayo team generate from those stats?

He's a good finisher but if the likes of Durcan, his brother, Keegan etc aren't getting their running game going then O'Connor is virtually non-existent.

Everything hinges on Mayo getting men over and that frees up the full back line having to leave their man and meet on of these runners.

O'Connor would never be able to do what a real marquee forward like McManus would when he's double and treble marked and his team are still trying to find him.

We'll see against Dublin this weekend as it's the usual hyperbole on the back of a heavy scoring O'Connor performance when for me it was really about Mayo's blitzreig running game tearing Tipp to shreds.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on December 14, 2020, 10:36:46 AM
Can you point us in the direction of the game(s) in which McManus was treble marked please Angelo?

I'm just thinking that some facts might be useful in the case that you're bringing forward.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 10:51:02 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 14, 2020, 10:36:46 AM
Can you point us in the direction of the game(s) in which McManus was treble marked please Angelo?

I'm just thinking that some facts might be useful in the case that you're bringing forward.

Routinely he's been a one man full forward line for quite a chunk of the past decade for Monaghan. Just look at some of the scores he gets, three or four people all around him and he has to deal with him and send over points from impossible angles.

Nobody is disputing that O'Connor can finish but I think whoever is playing in the Mayo full forward line and taking frees will score heavily, that's a given with the type of game Mayo play.

When teams are as naive as Tipp were and Mayo have their foot on the gas then players will be queuing up to score. It was a different story in the Connacht final against Galway.

Like I said earlier, I'd have Conroy over him as I believe Conroy is much better at winning his own ball, can take players on and get scores or draw those tap over frees. O'Connor is a finisher but Conroy seems to have such a good all round game.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on December 14, 2020, 10:52:20 AM
Ah okay then.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: tiempo on December 14, 2020, 11:00:53 AM
Lukit, the fella couldn't kick a ball through a tyre from 5 yards so has no legitimate claim as a top player

https://youtu.be/Vtcy-WgTWbI

Sin é
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: reillycavan on December 14, 2020, 11:37:19 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

+1 one of the all time greats.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:55:56 AM
On a brief search Moran has scored 1-10 from play against Dublin in that time but only played about half the minutes O'Connor did.

O'Connor has started 8 Championship games against Dublin in that time. Moran only started 4, he missed the 2012 game through injury and was a used sub in both the 2015 games as well as last year's semi final.

Horan didn't seem to fancy Moran that much when you look back at it.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 12:06:13 PM
And Lee Keegan has more from play in those games too with 3-04 from play to his name.

A wing back
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Hound on December 14, 2020, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: WhoDat on December 14, 2020, 01:55:14 AM
i refuse to believe that anyone who thinks o'connor "goes missing" in big games has ever actually watched him in a big game.
Demanding too much of the ball might have been a valid criticism in the odd big game, and he's had the odd bad game in a big game, but he never shirks the challenge and never misses due to bottle.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on December 14, 2020, 01:48:02 PM
Ah men, resist!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview

I'm not a big Gooch fan. I think he was a very skilled player but a flat track bully but Gooch was effectively finished as a footballer when he did his cruciate in 2014. So you're effectively judging him on the 2013 semi final, he scored 0-02 from centre forward form play that day.

O'Connor has 1-08 from play against Dublin in 8 championship appearances, Lee Keegan, a wing back has outscored him and Keegan has consistently been Mayo's go to man markers in those games.

Do you think 1-08 from play for a side like Mayo is good enough in 8 Championship appearances against Dublin for your prime inside forward?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview

I'm not a big Gooch fan. I think he was a very skilled player but a flat track bully but Gooch was effectively finished as a footballer when he did his cruciate in 2014. So you're effectively judging him on the 2013 semi final, he scored 0-02 from centre forward form play that day.

O'Connor has 1-08 from play against Dublin in 8 championship appearances, Lee Keegan, a wing back has outscored him and Keegan has consistently been Mayo's go to man markers in those games.

Do you think 1-08 from play for a side like Mayo is good enough in 8 Championship appearances against Dublin for your prime inside forward?

Do you think he might have won any of the frees he got to put over?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview

I'm not a big Gooch fan. I think he was a very skilled player but a flat track bully but Gooch was effectively finished as a footballer when he did his cruciate in 2014. So you're effectively judging him on the 2013 semi final, he scored 0-02 from centre forward form play that day.

O'Connor has 1-08 from play against Dublin in 8 championship appearances, Lee Keegan, a wing back has outscored him and Keegan has consistently been Mayo's go to man markers in those games.

Do you think 1-08 from play for a side like Mayo is good enough in 8 Championship appearances against Dublin for your prime inside forward?

Do you think he might have won any of the frees he got to put over?

No.

O'Connor profits on the good work of other players, he's a finisher.

He does a lot of defensive work from the front but gets away with absolute murder with his persistent fouling.

It's the runners from Mayo that draw the frees.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: screenexile on December 14, 2020, 03:24:32 PM
Based on that logic Canavan wasn't decent at all sure he only score one point from play in the 1995 final ... over rated!!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:28:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview

I'm not a big Gooch fan. I think he was a very skilled player but a flat track bully but Gooch was effectively finished as a footballer when he did his cruciate in 2014. So you're effectively judging him on the 2013 semi final, he scored 0-02 from centre forward form play that day.

O'Connor has 1-08 from play against Dublin in 8 championship appearances, Lee Keegan, a wing back has outscored him and Keegan has consistently been Mayo's go to man markers in those games.

Do you think 1-08 from play for a side like Mayo is good enough in 8 Championship appearances against Dublin for your prime inside forward?

Do you think he might have won any of the frees he got to put over?

No.

O'Connor profits on the good work of other players, he's a finisher.

He does a lot of defensive work from the front but gets away with absolute murder with his persistent fouling.

It's the runners from Mayo that draw the frees.

So he didnt win any of the frees he converted?

You need to do more research Angelo before throwing out comments like that
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:34:54 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 14, 2020, 03:24:32 PM
Based on that logic Canavan wasn't decent at all sure he only score one point from play in the 1995 final ... over rated!!

Scored 1-03 from play in the semi final against Galway.
4 or 5 points from play against Derry in Ulster when down to 13 men.

So based on that logic, Canavan was the GOAT.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:28:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview

I'm not a big Gooch fan. I think he was a very skilled player but a flat track bully but Gooch was effectively finished as a footballer when he did his cruciate in 2014. So you're effectively judging him on the 2013 semi final, he scored 0-02 from centre forward form play that day.

O'Connor has 1-08 from play against Dublin in 8 championship appearances, Lee Keegan, a wing back has outscored him and Keegan has consistently been Mayo's go to man markers in those games.

Do you think 1-08 from play for a side like Mayo is good enough in 8 Championship appearances against Dublin for your prime inside forward?

Do you think he might have won any of the frees he got to put over?

No.

O'Connor profits on the good work of other players, he's a finisher.

He does a lot of defensive work from the front but gets away with absolute murder with his persistent fouling.

It's the runners from Mayo that draw the frees.

So he didnt win any of the frees he converted?

You need to do more research Angelo before throwing out comments like that

Hold on. Are you saying he did win the frees he converted?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: whitey on December 14, 2020, 03:40:40 PM
Dublin foul count almost triple Mayos a few years ago

How the fvck can you score from play when you're being fouled from pillar to post

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20351343.html%3ftype=amp
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:41:49 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 03:40:40 PM
Dublin foul count almost triple Mayos a few years ago

How the fvck can you score from play when you're being fouled from pillar to post

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20351343.html%3ftype=amp

Maybe Cillian should ask a few of his teammates? They seem to be able to manage it, one half back in particular.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: whitey on December 14, 2020, 03:52:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:41:49 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 03:40:40 PM
Dublin foul count almost triple Mayos a few years ago

How the fvck can you score from play when you're being fouled from pillar to post

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20351343.html%3ftype=amp

Maybe Cillian should ask a few of his teammates? They seem to be able to manage it, one half back in particular.

Apples and oranges
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 03:52:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:41:49 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 03:40:40 PM
Dublin foul count almost triple Mayos a few years ago

How the fvck can you score from play when you're being fouled from pillar to post

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20351343.html%3ftype=amp

Maybe Cillian should ask a few of his teammates? They seem to be able to manage it, one half back in particular.

Apples and oranges

Think Keegan was usually Mayo's go to man marker as well when he was banging in the goals. He also spent less minutes on the pitch.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 04:38:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:28:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview

I'm not a big Gooch fan. I think he was a very skilled player but a flat track bully but Gooch was effectively finished as a footballer when he did his cruciate in 2014. So you're effectively judging him on the 2013 semi final, he scored 0-02 from centre forward form play that day.

O'Connor has 1-08 from play against Dublin in 8 championship appearances, Lee Keegan, a wing back has outscored him and Keegan has consistently been Mayo's go to man markers in those games.

Do you think 1-08 from play for a side like Mayo is good enough in 8 Championship appearances against Dublin for your prime inside forward?

Do you think he might have won any of the frees he got to put over?

No.

O'Connor profits on the good work of other players, he's a finisher.

He does a lot of defensive work from the front but gets away with absolute murder with his persistent fouling.

It's the runners from Mayo that draw the frees.

So he didnt win any of the frees he converted?

You need to do more research Angelo before throwing out comments like that

Hold on. Are you saying he did win the frees he converted?

I asked did he win ANY of the frees he converted.

You said 'no'.

You are incorrect - do your research
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 04:52:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 04:38:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:28:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview

I'm not a big Gooch fan. I think he was a very skilled player but a flat track bully but Gooch was effectively finished as a footballer when he did his cruciate in 2014. So you're effectively judging him on the 2013 semi final, he scored 0-02 from centre forward form play that day.

O'Connor has 1-08 from play against Dublin in 8 championship appearances, Lee Keegan, a wing back has outscored him and Keegan has consistently been Mayo's go to man markers in those games.

Do you think 1-08 from play for a side like Mayo is good enough in 8 Championship appearances against Dublin for your prime inside forward?

Do you think he might have won any of the frees he got to put over?

No.

O'Connor profits on the good work of other players, he's a finisher.

He does a lot of defensive work from the front but gets away with absolute murder with his persistent fouling.

It's the runners from Mayo that draw the frees.

So he didnt win any of the frees he converted?

You need to do more research Angelo before throwing out comments like that

Hold on. Are you saying he did win the frees he converted?

I asked did he win ANY of the frees he converted.

You said 'no'.

You are incorrect - do your research

So you're telling me he did win some of the frees he converted? Right then, tell me how many he won?

Or maybe you don't actually have a f**king clue what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 04:52:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 04:38:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:28:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview

I'm not a big Gooch fan. I think he was a very skilled player but a flat track bully but Gooch was effectively finished as a footballer when he did his cruciate in 2014. So you're effectively judging him on the 2013 semi final, he scored 0-02 from centre forward form play that day.

O'Connor has 1-08 from play against Dublin in 8 championship appearances, Lee Keegan, a wing back has outscored him and Keegan has consistently been Mayo's go to man markers in those games.

Do you think 1-08 from play for a side like Mayo is good enough in 8 Championship appearances against Dublin for your prime inside forward?

Do you think he might have won any of the frees he got to put over?

No.

O'Connor profits on the good work of other players, he's a finisher.

He does a lot of defensive work from the front but gets away with absolute murder with his persistent fouling.

It's the runners from Mayo that draw the frees.

So he didnt win any of the frees he converted?

You need to do more research Angelo before throwing out comments like that

Hold on. Are you saying he did win the frees he converted?

I asked did he win ANY of the frees he converted.

You said 'no'.

You are incorrect - do your research

So you're telling me he did win some of the frees he converted? Right then, tell me how many he won?

Or maybe you don't actually have a f**king clue what you're talking about.

;D ;D ;D

I asked did he win any of the frees he converted - given you are the font of all knowledge I thought you would know that.

You said 'no'.

That is incorrect - you are wrong.

So maybe it is someone else who doesnt actually have a f**king clue what they are talking about
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 11:02:51 AM
Quote from: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 04:52:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 04:38:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:28:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview

I'm not a big Gooch fan. I think he was a very skilled player but a flat track bully but Gooch was effectively finished as a footballer when he did his cruciate in 2014. So you're effectively judging him on the 2013 semi final, he scored 0-02 from centre forward form play that day.

O'Connor has 1-08 from play against Dublin in 8 championship appearances, Lee Keegan, a wing back has outscored him and Keegan has consistently been Mayo's go to man markers in those games.

Do you think 1-08 from play for a side like Mayo is good enough in 8 Championship appearances against Dublin for your prime inside forward?

Do you think he might have won any of the frees he got to put over?

No.

O'Connor profits on the good work of other players, he's a finisher.

He does a lot of defensive work from the front but gets away with absolute murder with his persistent fouling.

It's the runners from Mayo that draw the frees.

So he didnt win any of the frees he converted?

You need to do more research Angelo before throwing out comments like that

Hold on. Are you saying he did win the frees he converted?

I asked did he win ANY of the frees he converted.

You said 'no'.

You are incorrect - do your research

So you're telling me he did win some of the frees he converted? Right then, tell me how many he won?

Or maybe you don't actually have a f**king clue what you're talking about.

;D ;D ;D

I asked did he win any of the frees he converted - given you are the font of all knowledge I thought you would know that.

You said 'no'.

That is incorrect - you are wrong.

So maybe it is someone else who doesnt actually have a f**king clue what they are talking about

Prove it's incorrect.

It seems you are saying something you don't even know.

Surely if you're contending O'Connor won a free or penalty he scored 1-48 he scored from dead balls you must know:

a) how many of those he won
b) able to point to one specific example

The floor is yours but you don't seem confident.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: fearsiuil on December 15, 2020, 11:18:03 AM
What's the story with this lad polluting every thread on this discussion board, really makes the build up to AI final a waste of time here. Pity, used be informative and a bit of craic. Have him blocked but page after page of long quoted petty arguments going nowhere.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 11:32:46 AM
Quote from: fearsiuil on December 15, 2020, 11:18:03 AM
What's the story with this lad polluting every thread on this discussion board, really makes the build up to AI final a waste of time here. Pity, used be informative and a bit of craic. Have him blocked but page after page of long quoted petty arguments going nowhere.

If you have a problem with facts then that is not my problem.

There is a thread of Cillian O'Connor and if you read it from the beginning you will find he is a polarising character to many people. I have my opinions, they are well thought out, backed up by statistics and knowledge. The problem seems to be you don't like the truth so find this way easier to diminish it.

Maybe you might do me a favour and jog on rather than taking away from the discussion here.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 12:20:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 11:02:51 AM
Quote from: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 04:52:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 04:38:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:28:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview

I'm not a big Gooch fan. I think he was a very skilled player but a flat track bully but Gooch was effectively finished as a footballer when he did his cruciate in 2014. So you're effectively judging him on the 2013 semi final, he scored 0-02 from centre forward form play that day.

O'Connor has 1-08 from play against Dublin in 8 championship appearances, Lee Keegan, a wing back has outscored him and Keegan has consistently been Mayo's go to man markers in those games.

Do you think 1-08 from play for a side like Mayo is good enough in 8 Championship appearances against Dublin for your prime inside forward?

Do you think he might have won any of the frees he got to put over?

No.

O'Connor profits on the good work of other players, he's a finisher.

He does a lot of defensive work from the front but gets away with absolute murder with his persistent fouling.

It's the runners from Mayo that draw the frees.

So he didnt win any of the frees he converted?

You need to do more research Angelo before throwing out comments like that

Hold on. Are you saying he did win the frees he converted?

I asked did he win ANY of the frees he converted.

You said 'no'.

You are incorrect - do your research

So you're telling me he did win some of the frees he converted? Right then, tell me how many he won?

Or maybe you don't actually have a f**king clue what you're talking about.

;D ;D ;D

I asked did he win any of the frees he converted - given you are the font of all knowledge I thought you would know that.

You said 'no'.

That is incorrect - you are wrong.

So maybe it is someone else who doesnt actually have a f**king clue what they are talking about

Prove it's incorrect.

It seems you are saying something you don't even know.

Surely if you're contending O'Connor won a free or penalty he scored 1-48 he scored from dead balls you must know:

a) how many of those he won
b) able to point to one specific example

The floor is yours but you don't seem confident.

The floor is mine indeed.

Just go to the first score between the teams last year.

So you are wrong - pretty simple there.

I asked did he won any of the frees he scored - you said no.

Do your research
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 12:31:49 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 12:20:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 11:02:51 AM
Quote from: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 04:52:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 04:38:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:28:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview

I'm not a big Gooch fan. I think he was a very skilled player but a flat track bully but Gooch was effectively finished as a footballer when he did his cruciate in 2014. So you're effectively judging him on the 2013 semi final, he scored 0-02 from centre forward form play that day.

O'Connor has 1-08 from play against Dublin in 8 championship appearances, Lee Keegan, a wing back has outscored him and Keegan has consistently been Mayo's go to man markers in those games.

Do you think 1-08 from play for a side like Mayo is good enough in 8 Championship appearances against Dublin for your prime inside forward?

Do you think he might have won any of the frees he got to put over?

No.

O'Connor profits on the good work of other players, he's a finisher.

He does a lot of defensive work from the front but gets away with absolute murder with his persistent fouling.

It's the runners from Mayo that draw the frees.

So he didnt win any of the frees he converted?

You need to do more research Angelo before throwing out comments like that

Hold on. Are you saying he did win the frees he converted?

I asked did he win ANY of the frees he converted.

You said 'no'.

You are incorrect - do your research

So you're telling me he did win some of the frees he converted? Right then, tell me how many he won?

Or maybe you don't actually have a f**king clue what you're talking about.

;D ;D ;D

I asked did he win any of the frees he converted - given you are the font of all knowledge I thought you would know that.

You said 'no'.

That is incorrect - you are wrong.

So maybe it is someone else who doesnt actually have a f**king clue what they are talking about

Prove it's incorrect.

It seems you are saying something you don't even know.

Surely if you're contending O'Connor won a free or penalty he scored 1-48 he scored from dead balls you must know:

a) how many of those he won
b) able to point to one specific example

The floor is yours but you don't seem confident.

The floor is mine indeed.

Just go to the first score between the teams last year.

So you are wrong - pretty simple there.

I asked did he won any of the frees he scored - you said no.

Do your research

So it took him 8 years to win a free he scored against Dublin?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on December 15, 2020, 12:44:56 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 12:20:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 11:02:51 AM
Quote from: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 04:52:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 04:38:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:28:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview

I'm not a big Gooch fan. I think he was a very skilled player but a flat track bully but Gooch was effectively finished as a footballer when he did his cruciate in 2014. So you're effectively judging him on the 2013 semi final, he scored 0-02 from centre forward form play that day.

O'Connor has 1-08 from play against Dublin in 8 championship appearances, Lee Keegan, a wing back has outscored him and Keegan has consistently been Mayo's go to man markers in those games.

Do you think 1-08 from play for a side like Mayo is good enough in 8 Championship appearances against Dublin for your prime inside forward?

Do you think he might have won any of the frees he got to put over?

No.

O'Connor profits on the good work of other players, he's a finisher.

He does a lot of defensive work from the front but gets away with absolute murder with his persistent fouling.

It's the runners from Mayo that draw the frees.

So he didnt win any of the frees he converted?

You need to do more research Angelo before throwing out comments like that

Hold on. Are you saying he did win the frees he converted?

I asked did he win ANY of the frees he converted.

You said 'no'.

You are incorrect - do your research

So you're telling me he did win some of the frees he converted? Right then, tell me how many he won?

Or maybe you don't actually have a f**king clue what you're talking about.

;D ;D ;D

I asked did he win any of the frees he converted - given you are the font of all knowledge I thought you would know that.

You said 'no'.

That is incorrect - you are wrong.

So maybe it is someone else who doesnt actually have a f**king clue what they are talking about

Prove it's incorrect.

It seems you are saying something you don't even know.

Surely if you're contending O'Connor won a free or penalty he scored 1-48 he scored from dead balls you must know:

a) how many of those he won
b) able to point to one specific example

The floor is yours but you don't seem confident.

The floor is mine indeed.

Just go to the first score between the teams last year.

So you are wrong - pretty simple there.

I asked did he won any of the frees he scored - you said no.

Do your research

Resist Taylor!  ;D After the barnstorming AI Semi performance, we were always gonna be riding this rodeo again! Resist!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 12:51:41 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 12:31:49 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 12:20:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 11:02:51 AM
Quote from: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 04:52:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 04:38:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:28:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 14, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 14, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 14, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
COC V Dublin, all tight games
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that's close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he'll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I'm surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Let's look at the from play numbers

2012 - 0-01 of 0-07 from play.
2013 - 0-00 of 0-08 from play.
2015 - 0-00 of 1-09 from play. 1-01 of 1-06 from play
2016 - 0-02 of 0-07 from play. 0-00 of 0-09 from play
2017 - 0-03 of 0-07 from play.
2019 - 0-01 of 0-03 from play.

So of the 2-56 he has scored against Dublin, 1-07 has been from play.

Is 1-08 from play in 8 matches really good enough at that level?

I'm not sure what Andy Moran's record from play in around the same timeframe has been but I'll go that it's around double.

How much did the Gooch score from play against Dublin

When?

The Gooch was a bit of a flat track bully, one thing Brolly was right on was that when the going got tough Gooch didn't want to know about. Cooper had all the skill in the world but I think he never really led when his team needed him to step up. The man in the Kerry attack who came up with the goods at crucial times when Kerry were in bother was consistently Donaghy.

I wouldn't say O'Connor is a bottler, I just think his limitations are exposed when Mayo aren't blitzreiging their opponents. I think top forwards can lead when things are drying up, O'Connor is not going to win a 30/70 ball, beat a load of players and fire over unbelievable scores under pressure - that is what the top forwards do.

In a big game Mayo have been involved in the past, one where it was a tight nip and tuck battle that went down to the wire, I can't think of many where I'd look back and say O'Connor was Mayo's best player or he was outstanding. I could say it about Lee Keegan, Keith Higgins, Andy Moran, Colm Boyle, Paddy Durcan, Jason Doherty or Diarmuid O'Connor though and that's where I look at it from.

From my memory the Gooch did fvck all when playing against Dublin from 2011 onwards (and that was with  an army of hard men to back him up). Gooch wouldn't stand a hope against Cooper or McMahon whereas O Connor more than held his own from a physical standpoint

I think the Gooch said as much in an interview

I'm not a big Gooch fan. I think he was a very skilled player but a flat track bully but Gooch was effectively finished as a footballer when he did his cruciate in 2014. So you're effectively judging him on the 2013 semi final, he scored 0-02 from centre forward form play that day.

O'Connor has 1-08 from play against Dublin in 8 championship appearances, Lee Keegan, a wing back has outscored him and Keegan has consistently been Mayo's go to man markers in those games.

Do you think 1-08 from play for a side like Mayo is good enough in 8 Championship appearances against Dublin for your prime inside forward?

Do you think he might have won any of the frees he got to put over?

No.

O'Connor profits on the good work of other players, he's a finisher.

He does a lot of defensive work from the front but gets away with absolute murder with his persistent fouling.

It's the runners from Mayo that draw the frees.

So he didnt win any of the frees he converted?

You need to do more research Angelo before throwing out comments like that

Hold on. Are you saying he did win the frees he converted?

I asked did he win ANY of the frees he converted.

You said 'no'.

You are incorrect - do your research

So you're telling me he did win some of the frees he converted? Right then, tell me how many he won?

Or maybe you don't actually have a f**king clue what you're talking about.

;D ;D ;D

I asked did he win any of the frees he converted - given you are the font of all knowledge I thought you would know that.

You said 'no'.

That is incorrect - you are wrong.

So maybe it is someone else who doesnt actually have a f**king clue what they are talking about

Prove it's incorrect.

It seems you are saying something you don't even know.

Surely if you're contending O'Connor won a free or penalty he scored 1-48 he scored from dead balls you must know:

a) how many of those he won
b) able to point to one specific example

The floor is yours but you don't seem confident.

The floor is mine indeed.

Just go to the first score between the teams last year.

So you are wrong - pretty simple there.

I asked did he won any of the frees he scored - you said no.

Do your research

So it took him 8 years to win a free he scored against Dublin?

You said he didnt win any of the frees he scored.

I have provided evidence (as requested by you) from the first score of the very last cship game he played against Dublin.

Pretty simple really.

You should do your research instead of stating lies to back up your theory.

Makes me question everything you have ever posted now  ;D

Going forward please provide evidence of your statements so we can decipher the truth from your lies
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 12:54:35 PM
I have only conducted my 2012 and 2013 review so far.

Of the points of how deadballs were won:

2012
3x 45
Overcarrying by Dublin defender
Conroy x2

2013
Ball touched on ground
Freeman
Moran x2
Varley x2
AOS
Boyle

So out of those 0-14 O'Connor did not win any of the frees. Hope to catch up on the rest later.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 01:02:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 12:54:35 PM
I have only conducted my 2012 and 2013 review so far.

Of the points of how deadballs were won:

2012
3x 45
Overcarrying by Dublin defender
Conroy x2

2013
Ball touched on ground
Freeman
Moran x2
Varley x2
AOS
Boyle

So out of those 0-14 O'Connor did not win any of the frees. Hope to catch up on the rest later.

Good work - well done.

You said he didnt win ANY of the frees.

Incorrect for you unfortunately & I have provided you evidence to prove it was a lie.

Do let me know when you have finished your pointless research  ;D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 01:05:09 PM
2015 replay
AOS x2
Parsons
Moran
Barrett
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 01:07:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 01:05:09 PM
2015 replay
AOS x2
Parsons
Moran
Barrett

Good lad.

Keep er lit.

When you get to 2019 you will see you stated a lie as a fact...........unfortunately for you  ;D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Ethan Tremblay on December 15, 2020, 01:08:54 PM
I have been Awol from the internet for a few weeks and have stumbled across this.  Just to clarify, are people questioning CoC as an all time great player because he scores free kicks? Is that the jist of the thread atm?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on December 15, 2020, 01:16:43 PM
Cillian is in the form of his life . Those who dont realise what he does for the team , I actually feel sorry for ya , football has passed you by .
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 01:29:36 PM
2015 drawn game:

AOS x3
DOC X2
Keegan
COC (Wahey)
Parsons
1x45

Boyle won the penalty.

So far it's 0-01 of 1-28.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on December 15, 2020, 01:36:21 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on December 15, 2020, 01:08:54 PM
I have been Awol from the internet for a few weeks and have stumbled across this.  Just to clarify, are people questioning CoC as an all time great player because he scores free kicks? Is that the jist of the thread atm?

Pretty much.

Angelo has also said COC did not win ANY of the frees he scored.

We have already shown this was a lie
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 02:00:16 PM
2016 draw

AOS x2
Lee Keegan
Ball touched on ground
Moran

2016 replay
Andy Moran
Boyle
SOS
DOC x3
AOS
Barry Moran x2


So O'Connor has won the frees for 0-01 of 1-43 from play so far. He's the greatest tap over free man to play the game.

It's more proof how much he struggles to impose himself from play in big games. Outscored by the likes of Keegan and Andy Moran in less gametime and also won an awful lot less frees than these guys have too.

It actually shows how Dublin struggle with AOS though, he has won 0-09 of those frees converted.


Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Farrandeelin on December 15, 2020, 02:02:03 PM
You would indeed wonder why he starts at all.  ::)
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 02:05:01 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on December 15, 2020, 02:02:03 PM
You would indeed wonder why he starts at all.  ::)

He's a good finisher and their best free taker but the stats would say he struggles in the tight games to create his own chances.

He's a bit like one of those goal poacher strikers, if you get him the service he will score but he can't do it without the service. The elite forwards can survive on scraps, O'Connor can't.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: nrico2006 on December 15, 2020, 08:05:31 PM
Always remember him tapping over the free in the 2013 final with the last kick of the game, when they needed a goal.  That was shocking.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: BennyCake on December 15, 2020, 08:17:03 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 15, 2020, 08:05:31 PM
Always remember him tapping over the free in the 2013 final with the last kick of the game, when they needed a goal.  That was shocking.

Yeah that was unbelievable. AFAIK the allocated injury time was already played. Absolutely baffling decision
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on December 15, 2020, 09:15:05 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 15, 2020, 08:05:31 PM
Always remember him tapping over the free in the 2013 final with the last kick of the game, when they needed a goal.  That was shocking.

He spoke with McQuillan who answered or jestured something to him. He taps it over. McQuillan blows and the Mayo players run to McQuillan for an explanation. They obviously had some indication there would be another play with only 1 score in it. If that was the case, going for goal from 20m out with so many Dublin's on the line would have been shocking surely.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Armagh18 on December 15, 2020, 09:42:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on December 15, 2020, 08:17:03 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 15, 2020, 08:05:31 PM
Always remember him tapping over the free in the 2013 final with the last kick of the game, when they needed a goal.  That was shocking.

Yeah that was unbelievable. AFAIK the allocated injury time was already played. Absolutely baffling decision
He 100% spoke to the ref beforehand
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: From the Bunker on December 15, 2020, 09:45:06 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on December 15, 2020, 08:17:03 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 15, 2020, 08:05:31 PM
Always remember him tapping over the free in the 2013 final with the last kick of the game, when they needed a goal.  That was shocking.

Yeah that was unbelievable. AFAIK the allocated injury time was already played. Absolutely baffling decision

Yeah was right beside that in the Nally Stand! No matter what McQuillan said to him, you always go for goal with so little time left. Losing by 1 or 2 or 20 is still losing! Hit it hard and low, you never know where a deflection might take it or if one of your own get it and have a chance closer to goal!

Was totally disgusted at the point option!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Tubberman on December 15, 2020, 09:57:09 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 15, 2020, 09:15:05 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 15, 2020, 08:05:31 PM
Always remember him tapping over the free in the 2013 final with the last kick of the game, when they needed a goal.  That was shocking.

He spoke with McQuillan who answered or jestured something to him. He taps it over. McQuillan blows and the Mayo players run to McQuillan for an explanation. They obviously had some indication there would be another play with only 1 score in it. If that was the case, going for goal from 20m out with so many Dublin's on the line would have been shocking surely.

Apparently McQuillan said there was 30 secs left.  Cillian understandably understood that to mean 30 secs left from when the ball was kicked out.
But McQuillan seemed to be counting the time it took Cillian to put it over, so time was up when the ball was kicked out.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: BennyCake on December 15, 2020, 10:16:00 PM
Yes 54 men on the line, but Mayo were never going to get another chance. Dublin would have held the ball or did what they needed to to prevent another attack.

Go for the goal. No regrets. Tap it over, plenty of them.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on December 15, 2020, 10:16:13 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on December 15, 2020, 09:57:09 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 15, 2020, 09:15:05 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 15, 2020, 08:05:31 PM
Always remember him tapping over the free in the 2013 final with the last kick of the game, when they needed a goal.  That was shocking.

He spoke with McQuillan who answered or jestured something to him. He taps it over. McQuillan blows and the Mayo players run to McQuillan for an explanation. They obviously had some indication there would be another play with only 1 score in it. If that was the case, going for goal from 20m out with so many Dublin's on the line would have been shocking surely.

Apparently McQuillan said there was 30 secs left.  Cillian understandably understood that to mean 30 secs left from when the ball was kicked out.
But McQuillan seemed to be counting the time it took Cillian to put it over, so time was up when the ball was kicked out.

The finest of margins. I know he said if he knew it was the final kick, he'd have given it the leather
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 10:30:40 AM
Ok so I have now completed a full breakdown of the frees Mayo have had in their Championship meetings with Dublin since 2012.

2012
3x 45
Overcarrying by Dublin defender
Conroy x2

2013
Ball touched on ground
Freeman
Moran x2
Varley x2
AOS
Boyle


2015 drawn game:

AOS x3
DOC X2
Keegan
COC (Wahey)
Parsons
1x45

Boyle won the penalty.

2015 replay
AOS x2
Parsons
Moran
Barrett

2016 draw
AOS x2
Lee Keegan
Ball touched on ground
Moran

2016 replay
Andy Moran
Boyle
SOS
DOC x3
AOS
Barry Moran x2

2017
Doherty x2
DOC
Keegan

2019
COC
Boyle

So he has won the frees for 0-02 of the 1-49 he has scored from frees. It's also notable how much his free taking has deteriorated in the past 4/5 seasons. In his early years, his conversion rates from 45s and far out frees was very impressive - now it's just bang average. The vast, vast majority of his frees are ones you expect half decent free takers to be converting regularly.

In terms of who wins the frees for Mayo:

AOS 0-09
DOC 0-06
Boyle 1-03
A Moran 0-05
Keegan 0-03

I'd say AOS is the only player who has played as many minutes in those games against Dublin as COC has.

For me I don't think O'Connor is a bad player but he's not an elite level forward, you'd be looking for COC to be topping the chart for scorable frees won and scores from play if he was your elite level inside forward but he's comprehensively beaten in both of these metrics and beaten by guys in the half back line or fellas who would have played half the amount of football he did.

The Don't Foul guy had a graph up of his conversion of his frees over his Championship careers and there is a huge amount of them tapover frees. It's down to the game Mayo play - the hard running from their midfield, half back and half forward line which has been absolutely key to their success. O'Connor grabs a lot of the limelight due to looking at the paper and online reports and seeing him scoring 0-08 or 1-07. But it's actually guys like Boyle, Keegan, Durcan, Higgins, Parsons, DOC and so on and so forth who were/are the real elite level players in that Mayo team.








Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on December 16, 2020, 12:52:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 10:30:40 AM
Ok so I have now completed a full breakdown of the frees Mayo have had in their Championship meetings with Dublin since 2012.

2012
3x 45
Overcarrying by Dublin defender
Conroy x2

2013
Ball touched on ground
Freeman
Moran x2
Varley x2
AOS
Boyle


2015 drawn game:

AOS x3
DOC X2
Keegan
COC (Wahey)
Parsons
1x45

Boyle won the penalty.

2015 replay
AOS x2
Parsons
Moran
Barrett

2016 draw
AOS x2
Lee Keegan
Ball touched on ground
Moran

2016 replay
Andy Moran
Boyle
SOS
DOC x3
AOS
Barry Moran x2

2017
Doherty x2
DOC
Keegan

2019
COC
Boyle

So he has won the frees for 0-02 of the 1-49 he has scored from frees. It's also notable how much his free taking has deteriorated in the past 4/5 seasons. In his early years, his conversion rates from 45s and far out frees was very impressive - now it's just bang average. The vast, vast majority of his frees are ones you expect half decent free takers to be converting regularly.

In terms of who wins the frees for Mayo:

AOS 0-09
DOC 0-06
Boyle 1-03
A Moran 0-05
Keegan 0-03

I'd say AOS is the only player who has played as many minutes in those games against Dublin as COC has.

For me I don't think O'Connor is a bad player but he's not an elite level forward, you'd be looking for COC to be topping the chart for scorable frees won and scores from play if he was your elite level inside forward but he's comprehensively beaten in both of these metrics and beaten by guys in the half back line or fellas who would have played half the amount of football he did.

The Don't Foul guy had a graph up of his conversion of his frees over his Championship careers and there is a huge amount of them tapover frees. It's down to the game Mayo play - the hard running from their midfield, half back and half forward line which has been absolutely key to their success. O'Connor grabs a lot of the limelight due to looking at the paper and online reports and seeing him scoring 0-08 or 1-07. But it's actually guys like Boyle, Keegan, Durcan, Higgins, Parsons, DOC and so on and so forth who were/are the real elite level players in that Mayo team.

Any stats/evidence on that point in bold?

Or is it just another lie like the other one peddled that COC didnt win any of the frees he scored?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: nrico2006 on December 16, 2020, 12:54:52 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 16, 2020, 12:52:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 10:30:40 AM
Ok so I have now completed a full breakdown of the frees Mayo have had in their Championship meetings with Dublin since 2012.

2012
3x 45
Overcarrying by Dublin defender
Conroy x2

2013
Ball touched on ground
Freeman
Moran x2
Varley x2
AOS
Boyle


2015 drawn game:

AOS x3
DOC X2
Keegan
COC (Wahey)
Parsons
1x45

Boyle won the penalty.

2015 replay
AOS x2
Parsons
Moran
Barrett

2016 draw
AOS x2
Lee Keegan
Ball touched on ground
Moran

2016 replay
Andy Moran
Boyle
SOS
DOC x3
AOS
Barry Moran x2

2017
Doherty x2
DOC
Keegan

2019
COC
Boyle

So he has won the frees for 0-02 of the 1-49 he has scored from frees. It's also notable how much his free taking has deteriorated in the past 4/5 seasons. In his early years, his conversion rates from 45s and far out frees was very impressive - now it's just bang average. The vast, vast majority of his frees are ones you expect half decent free takers to be converting regularly.

In terms of who wins the frees for Mayo:

AOS 0-09
DOC 0-06
Boyle 1-03
A Moran 0-05
Keegan 0-03

I'd say AOS is the only player who has played as many minutes in those games against Dublin as COC has.

For me I don't think O'Connor is a bad player but he's not an elite level forward, you'd be looking for COC to be topping the chart for scorable frees won and scores from play if he was your elite level inside forward but he's comprehensively beaten in both of these metrics and beaten by guys in the half back line or fellas who would have played half the amount of football he did.

The Don't Foul guy had a graph up of his conversion of his frees over his Championship careers and there is a huge amount of them tapover frees. It's down to the game Mayo play - the hard running from their midfield, half back and half forward line which has been absolutely key to their success. O'Connor grabs a lot of the limelight due to looking at the paper and online reports and seeing him scoring 0-08 or 1-07. But it's actually guys like Boyle, Keegan, Durcan, Higgins, Parsons, DOC and so on and so forth who were/are the real elite level players in that Mayo team.

Any stats/evidence on that point in bold?

Or is it just another lie like the other one peddled that COC didnt win any of the frees he scored?

I don't know if what he said was a lie as such, maybe slightly inaccurate.  On the whole, he really isn't scoring frees he won.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on December 16, 2020, 01:00:17 PM
I would disagree.

He made the comment - I clarified the question and he double downed - I challenged him to prove it - he refused and asked me to provide evidence.

Which I did.

He lied to try to prove a point.

So you will forgive me for trying to gain clarity on the comments he makes to try to prove another point
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 01:19:43 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 16, 2020, 01:00:17 PM
I would disagree.

He made the comment - I clarified the question and he double downed - I challenged him to prove it - he refused and asked me to provide evidence.

Which I did.

He lied to try to prove a point.

So you will forgive me for trying to gain clarity on the comments he makes to try to prove another point

My point is proven.

He doesn't win scoring frees, he profits from the work of others.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on December 16, 2020, 01:23:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 01:19:43 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 16, 2020, 01:00:17 PM
I would disagree.

He made the comment - I clarified the question and he double downed - I challenged him to prove it - he refused and asked me to provide evidence.

Which I did.

He lied to try to prove a point.

So you will forgive me for trying to gain clarity on the comments he makes to try to prove another point

My point is proven.

He doesn't win scoring frees, he profits from the work of others.

You said he doesnt win ANY of the frees he takes.

That is clearly incorrect and a lie.

Keep digging kid.

Did you get them stats on his conversion deteriorating from frees yet?
If not, kindly remove another statement that isnt factual accurate
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 01:31:17 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 16, 2020, 01:00:17 PM
I would disagree.


Of course you would, don't let the facts bother you though.

0-02 from 1-49 he won himself.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 01:34:22 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 16, 2020, 12:52:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 10:30:40 AM
Ok so I have now completed a full breakdown of the frees Mayo have had in their Championship meetings with Dublin since 2012.

2012
3x 45
Overcarrying by Dublin defender
Conroy x2

2013
Ball touched on ground
Freeman
Moran x2
Varley x2
AOS
Boyle


2015 drawn game:

AOS x3
DOC X2
Keegan
COC (Wahey)
Parsons
1x45

Boyle won the penalty.

2015 replay
AOS x2
Parsons
Moran
Barrett

2016 draw
AOS x2
Lee Keegan
Ball touched on ground
Moran

2016 replay
Andy Moran
Boyle
SOS
DOC x3
AOS
Barry Moran x2

2017
Doherty x2
DOC
Keegan

2019
COC
Boyle

So he has won the frees for 0-02 of the 1-49 he has scored from frees. It's also notable how much his free taking has deteriorated in the past 4/5 seasons. In his early years, his conversion rates from 45s and far out frees was very impressive - now it's just bang average. The vast, vast majority of his frees are ones you expect half decent free takers to be converting regularly.

In terms of who wins the frees for Mayo:

AOS 0-09
DOC 0-06
Boyle 1-03
A Moran 0-05
Keegan 0-03

I'd say AOS is the only player who has played as many minutes in those games against Dublin as COC has.

For me I don't think O'Connor is a bad player but he's not an elite level forward, you'd be looking for COC to be topping the chart for scorable frees won and scores from play if he was your elite level inside forward but he's comprehensively beaten in both of these metrics and beaten by guys in the half back line or fellas who would have played half the amount of football he did.

The Don't Foul guy had a graph up of his conversion of his frees over his Championship careers and there is a huge amount of them tapover frees. It's down to the game Mayo play - the hard running from their midfield, half back and half forward line which has been absolutely key to their success. O'Connor grabs a lot of the limelight due to looking at the paper and online reports and seeing him scoring 0-08 or 1-07. But it's actually guys like Boyle, Keegan, Durcan, Higgins, Parsons, DOC and so on and so forth who were/are the real elite level players in that Mayo team.

Any stats/evidence on that point in bold?

Or is it just another lie like the other one peddled that COC didnt win any of the frees he scored?

Plenty of stuff on Dontfoul which has been done on COC's range.

He doesn't seem to score half as many 45s anymore as he did in his early days. I'd say he's a good rung or two below Rock and Sean O'Shea at present.


https://dontfoul.wordpress.com/2020/06/15/free-taking-review/
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: reillycavan on December 16, 2020, 01:36:26 PM
O'Connor stats don't lie. One of the greatest forwards of all time. He has another 4/5 years left in him too.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 01:42:40 PM
In that above, O'Connor has actually the weakest number in terms of expected points from frees..

(https://dontfoul.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/table-2-rankings-1.png)

(https://dontfoul.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/table-3-rankings-2.png)

(https://dontfoul.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/table-4-rankings-3.png)

The last table reflects what are considered the gimme points, close in or in front of the posts, the more difficult ones (from the sideline or circa 40 yards out) and then the really difficult ones which are from the 45 yard line and further out.

What is obvious is that Mayo are able to generate more scorable frees than any other county hence why O'Connor scores so heavily.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Mike Tyson on December 16, 2020, 02:48:03 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 01:42:40 PM
In that above, O'Connor has actually the weakest number in terms of expected points from frees..

(https://dontfoul.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/table-2-rankings-1.png)

(https://dontfoul.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/table-3-rankings-2.png)

(https://dontfoul.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/table-4-rankings-3.png)

The last table reflects what are considered the gimme points, close in or in front of the posts, the more difficult ones (from the sideline or circa 40 yards out) and then the really difficult ones which are from the 45 yard line and further out.

What is obvious is that Mayo are able to generate more scorable frees than any other county hence why O'Connor scores so heavily.

I'm sure it was an innocent slip Angelo but you forgot to mention the above tables only from 2017 onwards. From 2013-2016 O'Connor ranked No1 on total points vs expected at +7.4, and during this period the author noted:

"The argument can be made that the more attempts you have the easier it is to build up an Exp Pts tally – that of course ignores that the opposite is also true. The more attempts you have the greater the opportunity to regress to the mean.

That O'Connor has maintained such standards across multiple Championships is a remarkable feat. Even more so when you consider that the methodology does not account for the majority of his attempts occurring in high pressure games (Provincial finals, All Ireland semi-finals & finals) whilst also being a load bearing totem. He has taken 76% of Mayo's deadball attempts switching from the left to the right as well as taking high pressure penalties and the majority of Mayo's 45s.

O'Connor's consistency is beyond reproach and it is this, alloyed to his proven accuracy, that surely gives him the title of "the best free taker".
"
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 03:01:23 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on December 16, 2020, 02:48:03 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 01:42:40 PM
In that above, O'Connor has actually the weakest number in terms of expected points from frees..

(https://dontfoul.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/table-2-rankings-1.png)

(https://dontfoul.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/table-3-rankings-2.png)

(https://dontfoul.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/table-4-rankings-3.png)

The last table reflects what are considered the gimme points, close in or in front of the posts, the more difficult ones (from the sideline or circa 40 yards out) and then the really difficult ones which are from the 45 yard line and further out.

What is obvious is that Mayo are able to generate more scorable frees than any other county hence why O'Connor scores so heavily.

I'm sure it was an innocent slip Angelo but you forgot to mention the above tables only from 2017 onwards. From 2013-2016 O'Connor ranked No1 on total points vs expected at +7.4, and during this period the author noted:

"The argument can be made that the more attempts you have the easier it is to build up an Exp Pts tally – that of course ignores that the opposite is also true. The more attempts you have the greater the opportunity to regress to the mean.

That O'Connor has maintained such standards across multiple Championships is a remarkable feat. Even more so when you consider that the methodology does not account for the majority of his attempts occurring in high pressure games (Provincial finals, All Ireland semi-finals & finals) whilst also being a load bearing totem. He has taken 76% of Mayo's deadball attempts switching from the left to the right as well as taking high pressure penalties and the majority of Mayo's 45s.

O'Connor's consistency is beyond reproach and it is this, alloyed to his proven accuracy, that surely gives him the title of "the best free taker".
"

If you look back at my reply to Taylor.

He contended my assessment that O'Connor's free taking ability has fallen off badly in the past 4/5 years.

Here's what I said:

It's also notable how much his free taking has deteriorated in the past 4/5 seasons. In his early years, his conversion rates from 45s and far out frees was very impressive - now it's just bang average.

Taylor contended that bit and I've provided some data that supports what I said.





Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Mike Tyson on December 16, 2020, 03:52:00 PM
Apologies, I had assumed you were talking in general.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Taylor on December 16, 2020, 04:17:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 03:01:23 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on December 16, 2020, 02:48:03 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 01:42:40 PM
In that above, O'Connor has actually the weakest number in terms of expected points from frees..

(https://dontfoul.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/table-2-rankings-1.png)

(https://dontfoul.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/table-3-rankings-2.png)

(https://dontfoul.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/table-4-rankings-3.png)

The last table reflects what are considered the gimme points, close in or in front of the posts, the more difficult ones (from the sideline or circa 40 yards out) and then the really difficult ones which are from the 45 yard line and further out.

What is obvious is that Mayo are able to generate more scorable frees than any other county hence why O'Connor scores so heavily.

I'm sure it was an innocent slip Angelo but you forgot to mention the above tables only from 2017 onwards. From 2013-2016 O'Connor ranked No1 on total points vs expected at +7.4, and during this period the author noted:

"The argument can be made that the more attempts you have the easier it is to build up an Exp Pts tally – that of course ignores that the opposite is also true. The more attempts you have the greater the opportunity to regress to the mean.

That O'Connor has maintained such standards across multiple Championships is a remarkable feat. Even more so when you consider that the methodology does not account for the majority of his attempts occurring in high pressure games (Provincial finals, All Ireland semi-finals & finals) whilst also being a load bearing totem. He has taken 76% of Mayo's deadball attempts switching from the left to the right as well as taking high pressure penalties and the majority of Mayo's 45s.

O'Connor's consistency is beyond reproach and it is this, alloyed to his proven accuracy, that surely gives him the title of "the best free taker".
"

If you look back at my reply to Taylor.

He contended my assessment that O'Connor's free taking ability has fallen off badly in the past 4/5 years.

Here's what I said:

It's also notable how much his free taking has deteriorated in the past 4/5 seasons. In his early years, his conversion rates from 45s and far out frees was very impressive - now it's just bang average.

Taylor contended that bit and I've provided some data that supports what I said.

Fair play - you have provided factual stats which back up what you were saying (for the last 3 years anyway).

Now let that be a lesson in telling the truth  ;)
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 06:12:24 PM
So anyway is this cillian buckeeen any use , ya know the lad who has scored more than anyone in the history of the game .
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 06:12:24 PM
So anyway is this cillian buckeeen any use , ya know the lad who has scored more than anyone in the history of the game .

Profits from the good work of others.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: From the Bunker on December 16, 2020, 06:46:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 06:12:24 PM
So anyway is this cillian buckeeen any use , ya know the lad who has scored more than anyone in the history of the game .

Profits from the good work of others.

Tell me any forward who doesn't?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 07:10:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 06:12:24 PM
So anyway is this cillian buckeeen any use , ya know the lad who has scored more than anyone in the history of the game .

Profits from the good work of others.

Do you know his stats from his own turnovers this season alone ?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 07:19:55 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 07:10:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 06:12:24 PM
So anyway is this cillian buckeeen any use , ya know the lad who has scored more than anyone in the history of the game .

Profits from the good work of others.

Do you know his stats from his own turnovers this season alone ?

No.

But I do know he gets with persistent fouling consistently.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 07:24:10 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on December 16, 2020, 06:46:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 06:12:24 PM
So anyway is this cillian buckeeen any use , ya know the lad who has scored more than anyone in the history of the game .

Profits from the good work of others.

Tell me any forward who doesn't?

Conor McManus, Michael Murphy, David Clifford, Shane Walsh, Cathal McShane, Con O'Callaghan, Conor Sweeney, Jamie Clarke etc

They are all forwards who can live on scraps if needs be. I think Conroy will be an elite level forward for Mayo.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 07:32:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 07:19:55 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 07:10:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 06:12:24 PM
So anyway is this cillian buckeeen any use , ya know the lad who has scored more than anyone in the history of the game .

Profits from the good work of others.

Do you know his stats from his own turnovers this season alone ?

No.

But I do know he gets with persistent fouling consistently.

Ummm I'm starting to see a trend here , selective statistics and an obvious dislike for this Cillian lad .


Anyway up till the semi final cillian a corner forward remember was top of the table in turnovers , nine in total , I kid you not nine turnovers as a CF.

But you just keep beating that drum of yours.  Honestly dont really care at this stage , it becomes more obvious as you mature in life ,you see things for what they really are and detect the motive behind it
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: whitey on December 16, 2020, 10:00:04 PM
All those statistics are nonsense

Dean Rock would have to be competing against Dublins defense for it to be apples to apples
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 09:44:12 AM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 07:32:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 07:19:55 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 07:10:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 16, 2020, 06:12:24 PM
So anyway is this cillian buckeeen any use , ya know the lad who has scored more than anyone in the history of the game .

Profits from the good work of others.

Do you know his stats from his own turnovers this season alone ?

No.

But I do know he gets with persistent fouling consistently.

Ummm I'm starting to see a trend here , selective statistics and an obvious dislike for this Cillian lad .


Anyway up till the semi final cillian a corner forward remember was top of the table in turnovers , nine in total , I kid you not nine turnovers as a CF.

But you just keep beating that drum of yours.  Honestly dont really care at this stage , it becomes more obvious as you mature in life ,you see things for what they really are and detect the motive behind it

Not it's the truth.



Mayo foul from the front and have done consistently which O'Connor is a repeat offender from. It's part of the Horan/Buckley tactic and they get away with it, referees simply do not punish forwards who persistently foul defenders coming out with the ball. It slows teams down and allows Mayo to regroup, they are very, very effective in getting away with it and have been doing it for years.

Ronan McCarthy called it out in 2014.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20277145.html

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 09:46:05 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 16, 2020, 10:00:04 PM
All those statistics are nonsense

Dean Rock would have to be competing against Dublins defense for it to be apples to apples

Rock is a better free taker.

Seems to be a bit classier from play too and a better ball winner.

Dublin play a much more patient and measured game where they retain possession until such time as they have a simple score.

Mayo play a style of frenetic gung ho play where they go at full pelt from all angles.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on December 17, 2020, 10:13:42 AM
Can we just go back here , my argument to you is you're being selective in your analysis of what cillian contributes to the team and this is purposely being overstated by you on this thread ie frees won . This is failing to give context to how important cillian is to mayo and how incredible of a footballer he is,  I'll repeat nine fooking turnovers as a corner forward up till Semi final .

Also you've thrown at names like McManus,  Shane walsh , Conor sweeney , Jamie clarke ...none of whom have ever even played in all Ireland final
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on December 17, 2020, 10:37:54 AM
if your trying to argue against Cillian with stats  your wrong . where it counts is on the score board and that makes him the Best Ever . or The GOAT for  those who use the term
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 11:19:45 AM
Quote from: rosnarun on December 17, 2020, 10:37:54 AM
if your trying to argue against Cillian with stats  your wrong . where it counts is on the score board and that makes him the Best Ever . or The GOAT for  those who use the term

Stats are likely mini skirts.....

When you delve behind the stats they are telling.

I doubt any intercounty manager in the country would take O'Connor over the likes of Murphy, McManus, Clifford, Con O'Callaghan, Geaney, Mannion, McShane etc.

Ignore O'Connor's free taking duties, he's not an elite level forward. I think the stats also say he's no longer an elite level free taker either.

Is he any better than Darren Coen from play? For me, no. I probably think Coen offers more from play if I am honest.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on December 17, 2020, 11:28:37 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 11:19:45 AM
Quote from: rosnarun on December 17, 2020, 10:37:54 AM
if your trying to argue against Cillian with stats  your wrong . where it counts is on the score board and that makes him the Best Ever . or The GOAT for  those who use the term

Stats are likely mini skirts.....

When you delve behind the stats they are telling.

I doubt any intercounty manager in the country would take O'Connor over the likes of Murphy, McManus, Clifford, Con O'Callaghan, Geaney, Mannion, McShane etc.

Ignore O'Connor's free taking duties, he's not an elite level forward. I think the stats also say he's no longer an elite level free taker either.

Is he any better than Darren Coen from play? For me, no. I probably think Coen offers m

ore from play if I am honest.

Go home
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 11:42:59 AM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 17, 2020, 11:28:37 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 11:19:45 AM
Quote from: rosnarun on December 17, 2020, 10:37:54 AM
if your trying to argue against Cillian with stats  your wrong . where it counts is on the score board and that makes him the Best Ever . or The GOAT for  those who use the term

Stats are likely mini skirts.....

When you delve behind the stats they are telling.

I doubt any intercounty manager in the country would take O'Connor over the likes of Murphy, McManus, Clifford, Con O'Callaghan, Geaney, Mannion, McShane etc.

Ignore O'Connor's free taking duties, he's not an elite level forward. I think the stats also say he's no longer an elite level free taker either.

Is he any better than Darren Coen from play? For me, no. I probably think Coen offers m

ore from play if I am honest.

Go home

Let's see if he posts another disappearing act in a big game this Saturday.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: PMG1 on December 18, 2020, 12:56:33 AM
Cillian is 4/1 not to score from play on Saturday, put your money where your mouth is lads
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: reillycavan on December 18, 2020, 08:44:27 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on December 18, 2020, 12:56:33 AM
Cillian is 4/1 not to score from play on Saturday, put your money where your mouth is lads

Don't waste your money big game in Cillian tomorrow.  3/4 at least from play. In the form of his life.  Should nail player of the year tomorrow night.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 09:23:02 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on December 18, 2020, 12:56:33 AM
Cillian is 4/1 not to score from play on Saturday, put your money where your mouth is lads

Where is that?

Absolutely outstanding value.

He has failed to score from play in 3 of the previous 8 meetings and registered just a solitary score in two others.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: sid waddell on December 18, 2020, 09:57:36 AM
What Cillian O'Connor has possibly more than any forward in history is an elite attitude

He is not the most naturally talented forward in the game and far from it

But he has confidence and moxey in spades and a supreme work ethic and leadership skills, and he must be the most annoying player in Ireland to play against, he's narky as hell and cute as a fox

All that enables him to punch way above his weight

O'Connor is the sort of player who loves that Dublin are as good as they are, because he sees it as the ultimate challenge to beat them

He more than any other player is responsible for Mayo having the sort of gang mentality you need

Coincidentally, or not so coincidentally, Mayo's rise started the same year O'Connor came into the team and straight away he took on the mantle of team leader, as a 19 year old

O'Connor's equalising point against Dublin in 2016 is one of the greatest scores I've ever seen - he demanded the ball, made the opening himself and went for it, it was almost psychopathic in its confidence

His equalising score at 1-16 apiece the following year was almost as good

And when he has failed, he has dusted himself down and gone harder again

A remarkable player and man







Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 10:07:39 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 18, 2020, 09:57:36 AM
What Cillian O'Connor has possibly more than any forward in history is an elite attitude

He is not the most naturally talented forward in the game and far from it

But he has confidence and moxey in spades and a supreme work ethic and leadership skills, and he must be the most annoying player in Ireland to play against, he's narky as hell and cute as a fox

All that enables him to punch way above his weight

O'Connor is the sort of player who loves that Dublin are as good as they are, because he sees it as the ultimate challenge to beat them

He more than any other player is responsible for Mayo having the sort of gang mentality you need

Coincidentally, or not so coincidentally, Mayo's rise started the same year O'Connor came into the team and straight away he took on the mantle of team leader, as a 19 year old

O'Connor's equalising point against Dublin in 2016 is one of the greatest scores I've ever seen - he demanded the ball, made the opening himself and went for it, it was almost psychopathic in its confidence

His equalising score at 1-16 apiece the following year was almost as good

And when he has failed, he has dusted himself down and gone harder again

A remarkable player and man

A pity he struggles from open play so much.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: StephenC on December 18, 2020, 10:26:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 10:07:39 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 18, 2020, 09:57:36 AM
What Cillian O'Connor has possibly more than any forward in history is an elite attitude

He is not the most naturally talented forward in the game and far from it

But he has confidence and moxey in spades and a supreme work ethic and leadership skills, and he must be the most annoying player in Ireland to play against, he's narky as hell and cute as a fox

All that enables him to punch way above his weight

O'Connor is the sort of player who loves that Dublin are as good as they are, because he sees it as the ultimate challenge to beat them

He more than any other player is responsible for Mayo having the sort of gang mentality you need

Coincidentally, or not so coincidentally, Mayo's rise started the same year O'Connor came into the team and straight away he took on the mantle of team leader, as a 19 year old

O'Connor's equalising point against Dublin in 2016 is one of the greatest scores I've ever seen - he demanded the ball, made the opening himself and went for it, it was almost psychopathic in its confidence

His equalising score at 1-16 apiece the following year was almost as good

And when he has failed, he has dusted himself down and gone harder again

A remarkable player and man

A pity he struggles from open play so much.

What does the finish line in this argument look like to you? When people agree with you? When people stop replying cause you've worn them down? Or is it the case that it's the process of arguing that is fueling you rather than any actual conclusion/victory? It's interesting reading you on this thread and on the SF thread - your energy for an argument is boundless and you put a lot of effort into it. But, out of interest, what is it all for?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 10:28:31 AM
Quote from: StephenC on December 18, 2020, 10:26:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 10:07:39 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 18, 2020, 09:57:36 AM
What Cillian O'Connor has possibly more than any forward in history is an elite attitude

He is not the most naturally talented forward in the game and far from it

But he has confidence and moxey in spades and a supreme work ethic and leadership skills, and he must be the most annoying player in Ireland to play against, he's narky as hell and cute as a fox

All that enables him to punch way above his weight

O'Connor is the sort of player who loves that Dublin are as good as they are, because he sees it as the ultimate challenge to beat them

He more than any other player is responsible for Mayo having the sort of gang mentality you need

Coincidentally, or not so coincidentally, Mayo's rise started the same year O'Connor came into the team and straight away he took on the mantle of team leader, as a 19 year old

O'Connor's equalising point against Dublin in 2016 is one of the greatest scores I've ever seen - he demanded the ball, made the opening himself and went for it, it was almost psychopathic in its confidence

His equalising score at 1-16 apiece the following year was almost as good

And when he has failed, he has dusted himself down and gone harder again

A remarkable player and man

A pity he struggles from open play so much.

What does the finish line in this argument look like to you? When people agree with you? When people stop replying cause you've worn them down? Or is it the case that it's the process of arguing that is fueling you rather than any actual conclusion/victory? It's interesting reading you on this thread and on the SF thread - your energy for an argument is boundless and you put a lot of effort into it. But, out of interest, what is it all for?

When people who are wrong admit they are wrong.

What do you disagree with what I've said on O'Connor?

It also takes two people to argue.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: StephenC on December 18, 2020, 10:32:56 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 10:28:31 AM
Quote from: StephenC on December 18, 2020, 10:26:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 10:07:39 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 18, 2020, 09:57:36 AM
What Cillian O'Connor has possibly more than any forward in history is an elite attitude

He is not the most naturally talented forward in the game and far from it

But he has confidence and moxey in spades and a supreme work ethic and leadership skills, and he must be the most annoying player in Ireland to play against, he's narky as hell and cute as a fox

All that enables him to punch way above his weight

O'Connor is the sort of player who loves that Dublin are as good as they are, because he sees it as the ultimate challenge to beat them

He more than any other player is responsible for Mayo having the sort of gang mentality you need

Coincidentally, or not so coincidentally, Mayo's rise started the same year O'Connor came into the team and straight away he took on the mantle of team leader, as a 19 year old

O'Connor's equalising point against Dublin in 2016 is one of the greatest scores I've ever seen - he demanded the ball, made the opening himself and went for it, it was almost psychopathic in its confidence

His equalising score at 1-16 apiece the following year was almost as good

And when he has failed, he has dusted himself down and gone harder again

A remarkable player and man

A pity he struggles from open play so much.

What does the finish line in this argument look like to you? When people agree with you? When people stop replying cause you've worn them down? Or is it the case that it's the process of arguing that is fueling you rather than any actual conclusion/victory? It's interesting reading you on this thread and on the SF thread - your energy for an argument is boundless and you put a lot of effort into it. But, out of interest, what is it all for?

When people who are wrong admit they are wrong.

What do you disagree with what I've said on O'Connor?

It also takes two people to argue.

;D ;D ;D
Not a chance you are dragging me into this! There are very few things I care about enough to argue about them with strangers on an internet forum. And COC is definitely not one of them.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: rosnarun on December 18, 2020, 10:42:13 AM
QuoteBut he has confidence and moxey in spades and a supreme work ethic and leadership skills, and he must be the most annoying player in Ireland to play against, he's narky as hell and cute as a fox
That is his weight
he has a plain style of kicking and does nothing Flash in games but he keeps going keeps scoring and takes no crap - that's enough for me and if he's not fouled out of it Tomorrow Mayo Will win
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 10:51:02 AM
Quote from: rosnarun on December 18, 2020, 10:42:13 AM
QuoteBut he has confidence and moxey in spades and a supreme work ethic and leadership skills, and he must be the most annoying player in Ireland to play against, he's narky as hell and cute as a fox
That is his weight
he has a plain style of kicking and does nothing Flash in games but he keeps going keeps scoring and takes no crap - that's enough for me and if he's not fouled out of it Tomorrow Mayo Will win

O'Connor fouls a lot more than he is fouled.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!

Without a doubt. Would you rather be sitting in a changing room with C O'Connor in your corner or any Tyrone free taker in the last half dozen years?

Will go down as one of the all time greats. Serious footballer / competitor
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: sid waddell on December 18, 2020, 01:25:07 PM
O'Connor has the mentality of a winner - a Luis Suarez or a Sergio Ramos

Winners worry about winning
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!

Without a doubt. Would you rather be sitting in a changing room with C O'Connor in your corner or any Tyrone free taker in the last half dozen years?

Will go down as one of the all time greats. Serious footballer / competitor

O'Connor hasn't come close to reaching the level McShane was playing at last year.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: screenexile on December 18, 2020, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!

Without a doubt. Would you rather be sitting in a changing room with C O'Connor in your corner or any Tyrone free taker in the last half dozen years?

Will go down as one of the all time greats. Serious footballer / competitor

O'Connor hasn't come close to reaching the level McShane was playing at last year.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/hVawOI4NSAfGdNdWgF/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 01:54:58 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 18, 2020, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!

Without a doubt. Would you rather be sitting in a changing room with C O'Connor in your corner or any Tyrone free taker in the last half dozen years?

Will go down as one of the all time greats. Serious footballer / competitor

O'Connor hasn't come close to reaching the level McShane was playing at last year.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/hVawOI4NSAfGdNdWgF/giphy.gif)

The bastion of bitterness has arrived to add his bias to the discussion.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 02:28:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 18, 2020, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!

Without a doubt. Would you rather be sitting in a changing room with C O'Connor in your corner or any Tyrone free taker in the last half dozen years?

Will go down as one of the all time greats. Serious footballer / competitor

O'Connor hasn't come close to reaching the level McShane was playing at last year.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/hVawOI4NSAfGdNdWgF/giphy.gif)

;D

McShane (fine player that he is for that 1 season) has had a few very average seasons and 1 good season. Does a 1 season wonder even enter the conversation? And we were talking free takers
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 02:28:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 18, 2020, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!

Without a doubt. Would you rather be sitting in a changing room with C O'Connor in your corner or any Tyrone free taker in the last half dozen years?

Will go down as one of the all time greats. Serious footballer / competitor

O'Connor hasn't come close to reaching the level McShane was playing at last year.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/hVawOI4NSAfGdNdWgF/giphy.gif)

;D

McShane (fine player that he is (for that 2 season) has had a few very average seasons and 1 good season. Does a 1 season wonder even enter the conversation? And we were talking free takers

O'Connor has never reached the level McShane was at last season where he was a one man wrecking ball from play.

You'll see tomorrow. All will be revealed.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 02:28:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 18, 2020, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!

Without a doubt. Would you rather be sitting in a changing room with C O'Connor in your corner or any Tyrone free taker in the last half dozen years?

Will go down as one of the all time greats. Serious footballer / competitor

O'Connor hasn't come close to reaching the level McShane was playing at last year.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/hVawOI4NSAfGdNdWgF/giphy.gif)

;D

McShane (fine player that he is (for that 2 season) has had a few very average seasons and 1 good season. Does a 1 season wonder even enter the conversation? And we were talking free takers

O'Connor has never reached the level McShane was at last season where he was a one man wrecking ball from play.

You'll see tomorrow. All will be revealed.

What will be revealed tomorrow, that McShane isn't playing in an AI final and O'Connor has lead his county to yet another final? We know all this now, we don't need tomorrow (good title for a Philomena song btw)
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 02:42:39 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 02:28:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 18, 2020, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!

Without a doubt. Would you rather be sitting in a changing room with C O'Connor in your corner or any Tyrone free taker in the last half dozen years?

Will go down as one of the all time greats. Serious footballer / competitor

O'Connor hasn't come close to reaching the level McShane was playing at last year.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/hVawOI4NSAfGdNdWgF/giphy.gif)

;D

McShane (fine player that he is (for that 2 season) has had a few very average seasons and 1 good season. Does a 1 season wonder even enter the conversation? And we were talking free takers

O'Connor has never reached the level McShane was at last season where he was a one man wrecking ball from play.

You'll see tomorrow. All will be revealed.

What will be revealed tomorrow, that McShane isn't playing in an AI final and O'Connor has lead his county to yet another final? We know all this now, we don't need tomorrow (good title for a Philomena song btw)

A 20/21 year old will be leading the inside line for Mayo by himself as O'Connor disappears.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Lar Naparka on December 18, 2020, 03:01:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 02:28:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 18, 2020, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!

Without a doubt. Would you rather be sitting in a changing room with C O'Connor in your corner or any Tyrone free taker in the last half dozen years?

Will go down as one of the all time greats. Serious footballer / competitor

O'Connor hasn't come close to reaching the level McShane was playing at last year.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/hVawOI4NSAfGdNdWgF/giphy.gif)

;D

McShane (fine player that he is (for that 2 season) has had a few very average seasons and 1 good season. Does a 1 season wonder even enter the conversation? And we were talking free takers

O'Connor has never reached the level McShane was at last season where he was a one man wrecking ball from play.

You'll see tomorrow. All will be revealed.
Never??
Well, O'Connor started of his career with two consecutive YPOTY awards- not a bad beginning.
How about McShane- has he achieved anything if note?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 03:05:37 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on December 18, 2020, 03:01:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 02:28:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 18, 2020, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!

Without a doubt. Would you rather be sitting in a changing room with C O'Connor in your corner or any Tyrone free taker in the last half dozen years?

Will go down as one of the all time greats. Serious footballer / competitor

O'Connor hasn't come close to reaching the level McShane was playing at last year.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/hVawOI4NSAfGdNdWgF/giphy.gif)

;D

McShane (fine player that he is (for that 2 season) has had a few very average seasons and 1 good season. Does a 1 season wonder even enter the conversation? And we were talking free takers

O'Connor has never reached the level McShane was at last season where he was a one man wrecking ball from play.

You'll see tomorrow. All will be revealed.
Never??
Well, O'Connor started of with two consecutive YPOTY awards- not a bad beginning.
How about McShane- has he achieved anything if note?

There's no doubt O'Connor has been consistent. The issue seems to relate to his optimum level being off that of an elite forward.

As I said, I think we will see a rookie like Conroy being the go to man to win frees and get scores from play in that Mayo inside forward line tomorrow. O'Connor will get his usual tap over frees that other players win.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 03:05:49 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on December 18, 2020, 03:01:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 02:28:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 18, 2020, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!

Without a doubt. Would you rather be sitting in a changing room with C O'Connor in your corner or any Tyrone free taker in the last half dozen years?

Will go down as one of the all time greats. Serious footballer / competitor

O'Connor hasn't come close to reaching the level McShane was playing at last year.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/hVawOI4NSAfGdNdWgF/giphy.gif)

;D

McShane (fine player that he is (for that 2 season) has had a few very average seasons and 1 good season. Does a 1 season wonder even enter the conversation? And we were talking free takers

O'Connor has never reached the level McShane was at last season where he was a one man wrecking ball from play.

You'll see tomorrow. All will be revealed.
Never??
Well, O'Connor started of his career with two consecutive YPOTY awards- not a bad beginning.
How about McShane- has he achieved anything if note?

Yes, The One Good Season award at the Team talk awards in Omaghs only hotel last year. Tyrone Tom compared and uncle Hugo compared.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 03:07:20 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 03:05:37 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on December 18, 2020, 03:01:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 02:28:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 18, 2020, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!

Without a doubt. Would you rather be sitting in a changing room with C O'Connor in your corner or any Tyrone free taker in the last half dozen years?

Will go down as one of the all time greats. Serious footballer / competitor

O'Connor hasn't come close to reaching the level McShane was playing at last year.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/hVawOI4NSAfGdNdWgF/giphy.gif)

;D

McShane (fine player that he is (for that 2 season) has had a few very average seasons and 1 good season. Does a 1 season wonder even enter the conversation? And we were talking free takers

O'Connor has never reached the level McShane was at last season where he was a one man wrecking ball from play.

You'll see tomorrow. All will be revealed.
Never??
Well, O'Connor started of with two consecutive YPOTY awards- not a bad beginning.
How about McShane- has he achieved anything if note?

There's no doubt O'Connor has been consistent. The issue seems to relate to his optimum level being off that of an elite forward.

As I said, I think we will see a rookie like Conroy being the go to man to win frees and get scores from play in that Mayo inside forward line tomorrow. O'Connor will get his usual tap over frees that other players win.

You do remember the AI semi-final, it was less than 2 weeks ago  ;D. Not near wise
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 03:19:03 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 03:07:20 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 03:05:37 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on December 18, 2020, 03:01:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 02:28:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 18, 2020, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 18, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 17, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 17, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
What would Tyrone not have given to have had a COC the past 7 years. Someone you could rely on for frees.

4 of the last 7.

He's been a bang average free taker since 2016.
Still better than anything Tyrone have!

Without a doubt. Would you rather be sitting in a changing room with C O'Connor in your corner or any Tyrone free taker in the last half dozen years?

Will go down as one of the all time greats. Serious footballer / competitor

O'Connor hasn't come close to reaching the level McShane was playing at last year.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/hVawOI4NSAfGdNdWgF/giphy.gif)

;D

McShane (fine player that he is (for that 2 season) has had a few very average seasons and 1 good season. Does a 1 season wonder even enter the conversation? And we were talking free takers

O'Connor has never reached the level McShane was at last season where he was a one man wrecking ball from play.

You'll see tomorrow. All will be revealed.
Never??
Well, O'Connor started of with two consecutive YPOTY awards- not a bad beginning.
How about McShane- has he achieved anything if note?

There's no doubt O'Connor has been consistent. The issue seems to relate to his optimum level being off that of an elite forward.

As I said, I think we will see a rookie like Conroy being the go to man to win frees and get scores from play in that Mayo inside forward line tomorrow. O'Connor will get his usual tap over frees that other players win.

You do remember the AI semi-final, it was less than 2 weeks ago  ;D. Not near wise

I do.

Against Tipperary.

In a blitzreig team performance. I've already outlined all this, very silly point to make in light of that.

It's the tight games when Mayo need him where he doesn't deliver.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on December 18, 2020, 03:36:32 PM
Like the tight game in 2016 AIF when a point down in the dying seconds from 40 yards out the field .
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 18, 2020, 03:36:32 PM
Like the tight game in 2016 AIF when a point down in the dying seconds from 40 yards out the field .

Cillian O'Connor has played in 5 All Ireland finals (replays inclusive)

2012 - no points from play
2013 - no points from play
2016 - 2 points from play
2016 replay - no points from play
2017 - 3 points from play

0-05 in 5 games

Is that good enough?

Andy Moran

2012 - injured
2013 -  1-02
2016 -  0-02
2016 R - 0-01
2017 - 0-03

1-08 in 4 games

Lee Keegan

2012 - 0-01
2013 - 0-02
2016 - 0-00
2016 R - 1-00
2017 - 1-00

2-03 in 5 games

Telling.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: PMG1 on December 18, 2020, 05:28:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 09:23:02 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on December 18, 2020, 12:56:33 AM
Cillian is 4/1 not to score from play on Saturday, put your money where your mouth is lads

Where is that?

Absolutely outstanding value.

He has failed to score from play in 3 of the previous 8 meetings and registered just a solitary score in two others.
Good old Paddypower is offering it, good value I think too
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: SouthDublinBro on December 18, 2020, 07:00:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 18, 2020, 01:25:07 PM
O'Connor has the mentality of a winner - a Luis Suarez or a Sergio Ramos

Winners worry about winning

A shame he doesn't have the trophies of a winner.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on December 18, 2020, 07:29:23 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on December 18, 2020, 07:00:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 18, 2020, 01:25:07 PM
O'Connor has the mentality of a winner - a Luis Suarez or a Sergio Ramos

Winners worry about winning

A shame he doesn't have the trophies of a winner.

Hes an individual in a team sport . He is a winner , he plays county football,  he has an all star, ypoty,highest scorer ever in the game .
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Hound on December 18, 2020, 11:02:11 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 18, 2020, 07:29:23 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on December 18, 2020, 07:00:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 18, 2020, 01:25:07 PM
O'Connor has the mentality of a winner - a Luis Suarez or a Sergio Ramos

Winners worry about winning

A shame he doesn't have the trophies of a winner.

Hes an individual in a team sport . He is a winner , he plays county football,  he has an all star, ypoty,highest scorer ever in the game .
I think this goes without saying Lar, but I'll say it anyway.
Cillian isn't likeable for fans of Mayo rivals, but nobody who knows football doesn't admire him.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: tonto1888 on December 19, 2020, 06:52:47 AM
Anyone who doesn't think C'OC isn't a top player needs to have a talk with themselves
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JimStynes on December 19, 2020, 07:40:16 AM
He's definitely a top player but I wouldn't have him in the list of best forwards of all time. The top scorer of all time is some achievement all the same.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: tonto1888 on December 19, 2020, 05:12:33 PM
Quote from: PMG1 on December 18, 2020, 05:28:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 09:23:02 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on December 18, 2020, 12:56:33 AM
Cillian is 4/1 not to score from play on Saturday, put your money where your mouth is lads

Where is that?

Absolutely outstanding value.

He has failed to score from play in 3 of the previous 8 meetings and registered just a solitary score in two others.
Good old Paddypower is offering it, good value I think too

Aye. Great value
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: From the Bunker on December 19, 2020, 05:23:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 19, 2020, 05:12:33 PM
Quote from: PMG1 on December 18, 2020, 05:28:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 09:23:02 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on December 18, 2020, 12:56:33 AM
Cillian is 4/1 not to score from play on Saturday, put your money where your mouth is lads

Where is that?

Absolutely outstanding value.

He has failed to score from play in 3 of the previous 8 meetings and registered just a solitary score in two others.
Good old Paddypower is offering it, good value I think too

Aye. Great value

Take O'Connor off!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: screenexile on December 19, 2020, 05:26:27 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on December 19, 2020, 05:23:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 19, 2020, 05:12:33 PM
Quote from: PMG1 on December 18, 2020, 05:28:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 09:23:02 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on December 18, 2020, 12:56:33 AM
Cillian is 4/1 not to score from play on Saturday, put your money where your mouth is lads

Where is that?

Absolutely outstanding value.

He has failed to score from play in 3 of the previous 8 meetings and registered just a solitary score in two others.
Good old Paddypower is offering it, good value I think too

Aye. Great value

Take O'Connor off!

Mayo can't be carrying someone so ineffective get him off he'll cost them the game!!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 19, 2020, 07:10:12 PM
Mixed bag from O'Connor. Excellent first twenty minutes and disappeared after that.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: lenny on December 19, 2020, 07:37:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 18, 2020, 03:36:32 PM
Like the tight game in 2016 AIF when a point down in the dying seconds from 40 yards out the field .

Cillian O'Connor has played in 5 All Ireland finals (replays inclusive)

2012 - no points from play
2013 - no points from play
2016 - 2 points from play
2016 replay - no points from play
2017 - 3 points from play

0-05 in 5 games

Is that good enough?

Andy Moran

2012 - injured
2013 -  1-02
2016 -  0-02
2016 R - 0-01
2017 - 0-03

1-08 in 4 games

Lee Keegan

2012 - 0-01
2013 - 0-02
2016 - 0-00
2016 R - 1-00
2017 - 1-00

2-03 in 5 games

Telling.

Sure peter canavan only scored one point from play in the 1995 all Ireland final and blew a great chance for Tyrone to steal a draw when he handled the balll on the ground with Tyrone in a great position.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 19, 2020, 07:40:44 PM
Quote from: lenny on December 19, 2020, 07:37:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 18, 2020, 03:36:32 PM
Like the tight game in 2016 AIF when a point down in the dying seconds from 40 yards out the field .

Cillian O'Connor has played in 5 All Ireland finals (replays inclusive)

2012 - no points from play
2013 - no points from play
2016 - 2 points from play
2016 replay - no points from play
2017 - 3 points from play

0-05 in 5 games

Is that good enough?

Andy Moran

2012 - injured
2013 -  1-02
2016 -  0-02
2016 R - 0-01
2017 - 0-03

1-08 in 4 games

Lee Keegan

2012 - 0-01
2013 - 0-02
2016 - 0-00
2016 R - 1-00
2017 - 1-00

2-03 in 5 games

Telling.

Sure peter canavan only scored one point from play in the 1995 all Ireland final and blew a great chance for Tyrone to steal a draw when he handled the balll on the ground with Tyrone in a great position.

I wouldn't expect a Derryman to be honest.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: StPatsAbu on December 19, 2020, 08:27:39 PM
Quote from: lenny on December 19, 2020, 07:37:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 18, 2020, 03:36:32 PM
Like the tight game in 2016 AIF when a point down in the dying seconds from 40 yards out the field .

Cillian O'Connor has played in 5 All Ireland finals (replays inclusive)

2012 - no points from play
2013 - no points from play
2016 - 2 points from play
2016 replay - no points from play
2017 - 3 points from play

0-05 in 5 games

Is that good enough?

Andy Moran

2012 - injured
2013 -  1-02
2016 -  0-02
2016 R - 0-01
2017 - 0-03

1-08 in 4 games

Lee Keegan

2012 - 0-01
2013 - 0-02
2016 - 0-00
2016 R - 1-00
2017 - 1-00

2-03 in 5 games

Telling.

Sure peter canavan only scored one point from play in the 1995 all Ireland final and blew a great chance for Tyrone to steal a draw when he handled the balll on the ground with Tyrone in a great position.
He more than made up for it bagging 2 all irelands while London have won more silverware than Derry in the past 20 years.....  ;D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: SouthDublinBro on December 19, 2020, 09:05:40 PM
 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: tonto1888 on December 19, 2020, 09:20:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 19, 2020, 07:40:44 PM
Quote from: lenny on December 19, 2020, 07:37:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 18, 2020, 03:36:32 PM
Like the tight game in 2016 AIF when a point down in the dying seconds from 40 yards out the field .

Cillian O'Connor has played in 5 All Ireland finals (replays inclusive)

2012 - no points from play
2013 - no points from play
2016 - 2 points from play
2016 replay - no points from play
2017 - 3 points from play

0-05 in 5 games

Is that good enough?

Andy Moran

2012 - injured
2013 -  1-02
2016 -  0-02
2016 R - 0-01
2017 - 0-03

1-08 in 4 games

Lee Keegan

2012 - 0-01
2013 - 0-02
2016 - 0-00
2016 R - 1-00
2017 - 1-00

2-03 in 5 games

Telling.

Sure peter canavan only scored one point from play in the 1995 all Ireland final and blew a great chance for Tyrone to steal a draw when he handled the balll on the ground with Tyrone in a great position.

I wouldn't expect a Derryman to be honest.

Which part wasn't he honest about? Canavan scored 11 that day. 10 of which were frees
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: lenny on December 20, 2020, 12:40:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 18, 2020, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 18, 2020, 03:36:32 PM
Like the tight game in 2016 AIF when a point down in the dying seconds from 40 yards out the field .

Cillian O'Connor has played in 5 All Ireland finals (replays inclusive)

2012 - no points from play
2013 - no points from play
2016 - 2 points from play
2016 replay - no points from play
2017 - 3 points from play

0-05 in 5 games

Is that good enough?

Andy Moran

2012 - injured
2013 -  1-02
2016 -  0-02
2016 R - 0-01
2017 - 0-03

1-08 in 4 games

Lee Keegan

2012 - 0-01
2013 - 0-02
2016 - 0-00
2016 R - 1-00
2017 - 1-00

2-03 in 5 games

Telling.

Let's use this criteria on someone like peter canavan. He played in 3 all Ireland finals and scored a total of 1.2 from play. Very telling. I think based on Angelo's criteria I think we can remove canavan's name from the list of great forwards over the last few decades.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 02:38:25 PM
Obviously didn't think it through
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on December 20, 2020, 03:33:29 PM
In a truly odd thread, perhaps the oddest thing of all is that 3 weeks ago our WUM in chief wouldn't have known who Tommy Conroy was if he found him sat on his head. Yet after a game in which Cillian scored 4.09, Angelo saw enough to portray the youngster as a better footballer.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:34:53 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 20, 2020, 03:33:29 PM
In a truly odd thread, perhaps the oddest thing of all is that 3 weeks ago our WUM in chief wouldn't have known who Tommy Conroy was if he found him sat on his head. Yet after a game in which Cillian scored 4.09, Angelo saw enough to portray the youngster as a better footballer.

A pity COC went missing after the first 20 minutes.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:44:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:34:53 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 20, 2020, 03:33:29 PM
In a truly odd thread, perhaps the oddest thing of all is that 3 weeks ago our WUM in chief wouldn't have known who Tommy Conroy was if he found him sat on his head. Yet after a game in which Cillian scored 4.09, Angelo saw enough to portray the youngster as a better footballer.

A pity COC went missing after the first 20 minutes.

A bit like your prediction of no score from play, that went after 2 minutes.. who top scored yesterday?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:53:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:44:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:34:53 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 20, 2020, 03:33:29 PM
In a truly odd thread, perhaps the oddest thing of all is that 3 weeks ago our WUM in chief wouldn't have known who Tommy Conroy was if he found him sat on his head. Yet after a game in which Cillian scored 4.09, Angelo saw enough to portray the youngster as a better footballer.

A pity COC went missing after the first 20 minutes.

A bit like your prediction of no score from play, that went after 2 minutes.. who top scored yesterday?

From play?

Con O'Callaghan.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:59:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:53:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:44:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:34:53 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 20, 2020, 03:33:29 PM
In a truly odd thread, perhaps the oddest thing of all is that 3 weeks ago our WUM in chief wouldn't have known who Tommy Conroy was if he found him sat on his head. Yet after a game in which Cillian scored 4.09, Angelo saw enough to portray the youngster as a better footballer.

A pity COC went missing after the first 20 minutes.

A bit like your prediction of no score from play, that went after 2 minutes.. who top scored yesterday?

From play?

Con O'Callaghan.

Ah, frees don't count.. didn't realise games were won on from scores from play only!

Been ref'ing for a number of years, when did that change?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: lenny on December 20, 2020, 04:05:40 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:59:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:53:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:44:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:34:53 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 20, 2020, 03:33:29 PM
In a truly odd thread, perhaps the oddest thing of all is that 3 weeks ago our WUM in chief wouldn't have known who Tommy Conroy was if he found him sat on his head. Yet after a game in which Cillian scored 4.09, Angelo saw enough to portray the youngster as a better footballer.

A pity COC went missing after the first 20 minutes.

A bit like your prediction of no score from play, that went after 2 minutes.. who top scored yesterday?

From play?

Con O'Callaghan.

Ah, frees don't count.. didn't realise games were won on from scores from play only!

Been ref'ing for a number of years, when did that change?

Canavan from play in his 3 all Ireland finals - 0.1,  0.0 and 1.1. Pretty poor. We now all realise under the new criteria for ranking forwards that he was a very average player.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 10:06:16 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:59:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:53:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:44:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:34:53 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 20, 2020, 03:33:29 PM
In a truly odd thread, perhaps the oddest thing of all is that 3 weeks ago our WUM in chief wouldn't have known who Tommy Conroy was if he found him sat on his head. Yet after a game in which Cillian scored 4.09, Angelo saw enough to portray the youngster as a better footballer.

A pity COC went missing after the first 20 minutes.

A bit like your prediction of no score from play, that went after 2 minutes.. who top scored yesterday?

From play?

Con O'Callaghan.

Ah, frees don't count.. didn't realise games were won on from scores from play only!

Been ref'ing for a number of years, when did that change?

He didn't win any of the frees.

Most of them were tap overs. Also missed a fairly gettable one in the first half.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 10:47:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 10:06:16 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:59:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:53:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:44:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:34:53 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 20, 2020, 03:33:29 PM
In a truly odd thread, perhaps the oddest thing of all is that 3 weeks ago our WUM in chief wouldn't have known who Tommy Conroy was if he found him sat on his head. Yet after a game in which Cillian scored 4.09, Angelo saw enough to portray the youngster as a better footballer.

A pity COC went missing after the first 20 minutes.

A bit like your prediction of no score from play, that went after 2 minutes.. who top scored yesterday?

From play?

Con O'Callaghan.

Ah, frees don't count.. didn't realise games were won on from scores from play only!

Been ref'ing for a number of years, when did that change?

He didn't win any of the frees.

Most of them were tap overs. Also missed a fairly gettable one in the first half.

He top scored and I'm nearly sure that means he scored the most, making him top scorer. Convinced he won a mark or two.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: lenny on December 21, 2020, 07:20:12 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 10:06:16 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:59:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:53:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:44:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:34:53 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 20, 2020, 03:33:29 PM
In a truly odd thread, perhaps the oddest thing of all is that 3 weeks ago our WUM in chief wouldn't have known who Tommy Conroy was if he found him sat on his head. Yet after a game in which Cillian scored 4.09, Angelo saw enough to portray the youngster as a better footballer.

A pity COC went missing after the first 20 minutes.

A bit like your prediction of no score from play, that went after 2 minutes.. who top scored yesterday?

From play?

Con O'Callaghan.

Ah, frees don't count.. didn't realise games were won on from scores from play only!

Been ref'ing for a number of years, when did that change?

He didn't win any of the frees.

Most of them were tap overs. Also missed a fairly gettable one in the first half.

Very similar performance to canavan in 1995 then where he scored only one point from play. Only one of his frees came from a foul on him. Most of his frees were handy enough tap overs. He also messed up the chance of getting a draw by panicking and handling the ball on the ground. He also missed a free late on which would've given them a draw. All in all, using your own criteria he was an average enough forward.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 10:13:08 AM
Quote from: lenny on December 21, 2020, 07:20:12 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 10:06:16 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:59:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:53:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2020, 03:44:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 20, 2020, 03:34:53 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 20, 2020, 03:33:29 PM
In a truly odd thread, perhaps the oddest thing of all is that 3 weeks ago our WUM in chief wouldn't have known who Tommy Conroy was if he found him sat on his head. Yet after a game in which Cillian scored 4.09, Angelo saw enough to portray the youngster as a better footballer.

A pity COC went missing after the first 20 minutes.

A bit like your prediction of no score from play, that went after 2 minutes.. who top scored yesterday?

From play?

Con O'Callaghan.

Ah, frees don't count.. didn't realise games were won on from scores from play only!

Been ref'ing for a number of years, when did that change?

He didn't win any of the frees.

Most of them were tap overs. Also missed a fairly gettable one in the first half.

Very similar performance to canavan in 1995 then where he scored only one point from play. Only one of his frees came from a foul on him. Most of his frees were handy enough tap overs. He also messed up the chance of getting a draw by panicking and handling the ball on the ground. He also missed a free late on which would've given them a draw. All in all, using your own criteria he was an average enough forward.

Nice revisionism there.

All you are doing is distorting reality.

Using my criteria, Canavan is the GOAT.

A match winning 1-01 (injury plagued at 34) from play in 50 minutes or so on the pitch as a final swansong proves it.

You must be still sore from when he carried a 13 man Tyrone to knock Derry out of the Championship.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on December 21, 2020, 10:56:19 AM
I think Angelo's point is that O Connor is not a 'clutch' player. A bit of a flat track bully who will run up big scores in loads of games but when the shite really hits the fan can go missing. Frees do need scored and he does that consistently well but so did my old mate Oisin McConville for instance. Oisin on the other hand I would have put my mortgage on scoring a winner out of nothing in the dying embers of a game with 3 men hanging off him, Canavan the same, Kilkenny the same, I'm not so sure O Connor would. I think he is an excellent player but just a step below the top.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 11:17:46 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on December 21, 2020, 10:56:19 AM
I think Angelo's point is that O Connor is not a 'clutch' player. A bit of a flat track bully who will run up big scores in loads of games but when the shite really hits the fan can go missing. Frees do need scored and he does that consistently well but so did my old mate Oisin McConville for instance. Oisin on the other hand I would have put my mortgage on scoring a winner out of nothing in the dying embers of a game with 3 men hanging off him, Canavan the same, Kilkenny the same, I'm not so sure O Connor would. I think he is an excellent player but just a step below the top.

+1

I'm not saying COC is terrible or anything of the sort but he's a bracket below top level. He scores heavy when his team are destroying the opposition. He's a finisher but he can't do it by himself like the elite forwards are able to.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Rossfan on December 21, 2020, 11:46:20 AM
How did that Canavan last so long on Tyrone teams?
Same club as the manager?

Better out in a  :D ;D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Ethan Tremblay on December 21, 2020, 11:51:54 AM
Do you's think in the current state of the game players like McConville and Canavan would have been awarded the freedom to do what they done so good?

If Canavan was on the current Tyrone panel (or any Tyrone panel tbh), he undoubtedly would be the marquee forward/danger man.   Do you think the current Dublin team would allow him to operate as he did? Do you think the Donegal way would allow a ball floated into the space in front of Canavan to win, beat one man and score?

I have fond memories of the late 90's and early 00's of both these players being comfortable winning ball, taking on and beating their men and proceeding to score great points, but it wouldn't happen as freely now as it did then. 


Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on December 21, 2020, 11:58:25 AM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on December 21, 2020, 11:51:54 AM
Do you's think in the current state of the game players like McConville and Canavan would have been awarded the freedom to do what they done so good?

If Canavan was on the current Tyrone panel (or any Tyrone panel tbh), he undoubtedly would be the marquee forward/danger man.   Do you think the current Dublin team would allow him to operate as he did? Do you think the Donegal way would allow a ball floated into the space in front of Canavan to win, beat one man and score?

I have fond memories of the late 90's and early 00's of both these players being comfortable winning ball, taking on and beating their men and proceeding to score great points, but it wouldn't happen as freely now as it did then.

100% best post on this thread
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Hound on December 21, 2020, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on December 21, 2020, 10:56:19 AM
I think the point is that O Connor is not a 'clutch' player. A bit of a flat track bully who will run up big scores in loads of games but when the shite really hits the fan can go missing. Frees do need scored and he does that consistently well but so did my old mate Oisin McConville for instance. Oisin on the other hand I would have put my mortgage on scoring a winner out of nothing in the dying embers of a game with 3 men hanging off him, Canavan the same, Kilkenny the same, I'm not so sure O Connor would. I think he is an excellent player but just a step below the top.

I have a recollection of O'Connor scoring an equalising point in exactly that manner late on v the Dubs. Demanded the ball. Lads hanging off him. Banged it over from distance.

His influenced definitely waned in the second half on Saturday, after he had a really good first half. Hard to know exactly from TV if his runs changed or Dublin's marking changed, but I would imagine the biggest reason was that Mayo dominated midfield in the first half and Dublin the second.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 12:09:59 PM
Quote from: Hound on December 21, 2020, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on December 21, 2020, 10:56:19 AM
I think the point is that O Connor is not a 'clutch' player. A bit of a flat track bully who will run up big scores in loads of games but when the shite really hits the fan can go missing. Frees do need scored and he does that consistently well but so did my old mate Oisin McConville for instance. Oisin on the other hand I would have put my mortgage on scoring a winner out of nothing in the dying embers of a game with 3 men hanging off him, Canavan the same, Kilkenny the same, I'm not so sure O Connor would. I think he is an excellent player but just a step below the top.

I have a recollection of O'Connor scoring an equalising point in exactly that manner late on v the Dubs. Demanded the ball. Lads hanging off him. Banged it over from distance.


Is this the one you refer to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_FOigo-ggE

No lads hanging off him there, a very good finish though.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on December 21, 2020, 12:10:51 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on December 21, 2020, 11:51:54 AM
Do you's think in the current state of the game players like McConville and Canavan would have been awarded the freedom to do what they done so good?

If Canavan was on the current Tyrone panel (or any Tyrone panel tbh), he undoubtedly would be the marquee forward/danger man.   Do you think the current Dublin team would allow him to operate as he did? Do you think the Donegal way would allow a ball floated into the space in front of Canavan to win, beat one man and score?

I have fond memories of the late 90's and early 00's of both these players being comfortable winning ball, taking on and beating their men and proceeding to score great points, but it wouldn't happen as freely now as it did then.

With all due respect having played during that period and particularly the mid 90's the protection that you received from refs was minimal and the physical nature of the hits were bordering on assault. To say these men comfortably won the ball is wrong. They had to battle and scrap for everything.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Maroon Manc on December 21, 2020, 12:48:51 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on December 21, 2020, 11:51:54 AM
Do you's think in the current state of the game players like McConville and Canavan would have been awarded the freedom to do what they done so good?

If Canavan was on the current Tyrone panel (or any Tyrone panel tbh), he undoubtedly would be the marquee forward/danger man.   Do you think the current Dublin team would allow him to operate as he did? Do you think the Donegal way would allow a ball floated into the space in front of Canavan to win, beat one man and score?

I have fond memories of the late 90's and early 00's of both these players being comfortable winning ball, taking on and beating their men and proceeding to score great points, but it wouldn't happen as freely now as it did then.

When were the likes of Canavan or McConville ever awarded freedom? Every good forward in history has come in for special attention.

I can remember the abuse Michael Donnellan got against Kerry in 2000, think he was fouled 7 times in the first half alone.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on December 21, 2020, 01:00:53 PM
Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Ethan Tremblay on December 21, 2020, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on December 21, 2020, 12:10:51 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on December 21, 2020, 11:51:54 AM
Do you's think in the current state of the game players like McConville and Canavan would have been awarded the freedom to do what they done so good?

If Canavan was on the current Tyrone panel (or any Tyrone panel tbh), he undoubtedly would be the marquee forward/danger man.   Do you think the current Dublin team would allow him to operate as he did? Do you think the Donegal way would allow a ball floated into the space in front of Canavan to win, beat one man and score?

I have fond memories of the late 90's and early 00's of both these players being comfortable winning ball, taking on and beating their men and proceeding to score great points, but it wouldn't happen as freely now as it did then.

With all due respect having played during that period and particularly the mid 90's the protection that you received from refs was minimal and the physical nature of the hits were bordering on assault. To say these men comfortably won the ball is wrong. They had to battle and scrap for everything.

Yea that's fair enough point, comfortable may have been the wrong word.  When I said freedom, I meant "space to operate", again badly communicated by me.   

The point I was trying to convey was that the modern intercounty game doesn't allow the forward line to flourish as it once did.  Space in front of the full forward line is a rare sight these days and if a player beats his man now, he is usually bottled up, I hope that point is coming across a bit more clearly. 

If playing today, with the ball in their hands, McConville and Canavan would no doubt create magic, win frees, take score when they were presented to them, but teams just wouldn't allow it to happen. 

Would it be a fair point to say their score from play stats would be diminished in todays game?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on December 21, 2020, 01:05:16 PM
Quote from: Hound on December 21, 2020, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on December 21, 2020, 10:56:19 AM
I think the point is that O Connor is not a 'clutch' player. A bit of a flat track bully who will run up big scores in loads of games but when the shite really hits the fan can go missing. Frees do need scored and he does that consistently well but so did my old mate Oisin McConville for instance. Oisin on the other hand I would have put my mortgage on scoring a winner out of nothing in the dying embers of a game with 3 men hanging off him, Canavan the same, Kilkenny the same, I'm not so sure O Connor would. I think he is an excellent player but just a step below the top.

I have a recollection of O'Connor scoring an equalising point in exactly that manner late on v the Dubs. Demanded the ball. Lads hanging off him. Banged it over from distance.

His influenced definitely waned in the second half on Saturday, after he had a really good first half. Hard to know exactly from TV if his runs changed or Dublin's marking changed, but I would imagine the biggest reason was that Mayo dominated midfield in the first half and Dublin the second.

The 2 marks and that catch and hoit from the acute angle in the 1st half from a good supply of ball going in. COC was brilliant in the first half. The supply in the 2nd half pretty much dried up as you say, Fenton came to the fore and Dublin had the middle sector seen up. Christ but Fenton is frustratingly brilliant. You just knew after the 1st half he'd be out all guns blazing in the 2nd.
So we're all now in agreement, O'Connor is 'excellent' and Peter 'The Great' was in fact Peter 'The Average' ;D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:14:43 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 21, 2020, 01:00:53 PM
Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

With his weaker foot. He's gone before O'Sullivan realises it.

The his point from out on the sideline in the second half shortly after being reintroduced.

Magic.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Maroon Manc on December 21, 2020, 01:24:25 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 21, 2020, 01:00:53 PM
Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

You mean like Dublins 2nd goal the the other night?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:35:11 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 21, 2020, 01:00:53 PM
Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

(https://i.ibb.co/d24dGxY/Capture.png)

Just to clear this one up.

Here is a still of the Canavan goal against Kerry in 05. He is actually being picked up by Seamus Moynihan (3x all star defender) and as you can see Moynihan has him goalside and within reach. This is just after Jordan has kicked the ball in. Canavan is then off like a rocket, burns Moynihan, he knows where he needs to be, takes the ball off Mulligan and places a perfect finish into the bottom corner off his weaker foot.

O'Callaghan and Rock were both free to palm/punch their goals in. Mayo got caught out on the overload or didn't track their men.

So you're talking nonsense I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 01:38:45 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:35:11 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 21, 2020, 01:00:53 PM
Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

(https://i.ibb.co/d24dGxY/Capture.png)

Just to clear this one up.

Here is a still of the Canavan goal against Kerry in 05. He is actually being picked up by Seamus Moynihan (3x all star defender) and as you can see Moynihan has him goalside and within reach. This is just after Jordan has kicked the ball in. Canavan is then off like a rocket, burns Moynihan, he knows where he needs to be, takes the ball off Mulligan and places a perfect finish into the bottom corner off his weaker foot.

O'Callaghan and Rock were both free to palm/punch their goals in. Mayo got caught out on the overload or didn't track their men.

So you're talking nonsense I'm afraid.

He's ten yards off him, so not actually being picked up by anyone
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:42:51 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 01:38:45 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:35:11 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 21, 2020, 01:00:53 PM
Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

(https://i.ibb.co/d24dGxY/Capture.png)

Just to clear this one up.

Here is a still of the Canavan goal against Kerry in 05. He is actually being picked up by Seamus Moynihan (3x all star defender) and as you can see Moynihan has him goalside and within reach. This is just after Jordan has kicked the ball in. Canavan is then off like a rocket, burns Moynihan, he knows where he needs to be, takes the ball off Mulligan and places a perfect finish into the bottom corner off his weaker foot.

O'Callaghan and Rock were both free to palm/punch their goals in. Mayo got caught out on the overload or didn't track their men.

So you're talking nonsense I'm afraid.

He's ten yards off him, so not actually being picked up by anyone

He's goalside. Canavan should not be getting into a goalscoring position from there but does.

As for 10 yards, are you a midget? That's the smallest 10 yards I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 01:53:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:42:51 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 01:38:45 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:35:11 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 21, 2020, 01:00:53 PM
Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

(https://i.ibb.co/d24dGxY/Capture.png)

Just to clear this one up.

Here is a still of the Canavan goal against Kerry in 05. He is actually being picked up by Seamus Moynihan (3x all star defender) and as you can see Moynihan has him goalside and within reach. This is just after Jordan has kicked the ball in. Canavan is then off like a rocket, burns Moynihan, he knows where he needs to be, takes the ball off Mulligan and places a perfect finish into the bottom corner off his weaker foot.

O'Callaghan and Rock were both free to palm/punch their goals in. Mayo got caught out on the overload or didn't track their men.

So you're talking nonsense I'm afraid.

He's ten yards off him, so not actually being picked up by anyone

He's goalside. Canavan should not be getting into a goalscoring position from there but does.

As for 10 yards, are you a midget? That's the smallest 10 yards I've ever seen.

He's wrong footed also, all over the shop, not touch tight, the defending is so poor it reminds me of Tyrone club football
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:58:54 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 01:53:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:42:51 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 01:38:45 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:35:11 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 21, 2020, 01:00:53 PM
Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

(https://i.ibb.co/d24dGxY/Capture.png)

Just to clear this one up.

Here is a still of the Canavan goal against Kerry in 05. He is actually being picked up by Seamus Moynihan (3x all star defender) and as you can see Moynihan has him goalside and within reach. This is just after Jordan has kicked the ball in. Canavan is then off like a rocket, burns Moynihan, he knows where he needs to be, takes the ball off Mulligan and places a perfect finish into the bottom corner off his weaker foot.

O'Callaghan and Rock were both free to palm/punch their goals in. Mayo got caught out on the overload or didn't track their men.

So you're talking nonsense I'm afraid.

He's ten yards off him, so not actually being picked up by anyone

He's goalside. Canavan should not be getting into a goalscoring position from there but does.

As for 10 yards, are you a midget? That's the smallest 10 yards I've ever seen.

He's wrong footed also, all over the shop, not touch tight, the defending is so poor it reminds me of Tyrone club football

So you're saying 3X all star and former Footballer of The Year Seamus Moynihan is a poor defender?

Moynihan has a good position there, the ball has been played in long, he is a good position to counter Canavan there and to intercept a breaking ball but Canavan loses him and scores a vital goal with a perfect finish.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 02:05:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:58:54 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 01:53:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:42:51 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 01:38:45 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:35:11 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 21, 2020, 01:00:53 PM
Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

(https://i.ibb.co/d24dGxY/Capture.png)

Just to clear this one up.

Here is a still of the Canavan goal against Kerry in 05. He is actually being picked up by Seamus Moynihan (3x all star defender) and as you can see Moynihan has him goalside and within reach. This is just after Jordan has kicked the ball in. Canavan is then off like a rocket, burns Moynihan, he knows where he needs to be, takes the ball off Mulligan and places a perfect finish into the bottom corner off his weaker foot.

O'Callaghan and Rock were both free to palm/punch their goals in. Mayo got caught out on the overload or didn't track their men.

So you're talking nonsense I'm afraid.

He's ten yards off him, so not actually being picked up by anyone

He's goalside. Canavan should not be getting into a goalscoring position from there but does.

As for 10 yards, are you a midget? That's the smallest 10 yards I've ever seen.

He's wrong footed also, all over the shop, not touch tight, the defending is so poor it reminds me of Tyrone club football

So you're saying 3X all star and former Footballer of The Year Seamus Moynihan is a poor defender?

Moynihan has a good position there, the ball has been played in long, he is a good position to counter Canavan there and to intercept a breaking ball but Canavan loses him and scores a vital goal with a perfect finish.

On this occasion he's all over the shop, watched it there again, I don't know what way he was trying to defend that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN_mP7zBRIM
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 02:10:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 02:05:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:58:54 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 01:53:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:42:51 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 01:38:45 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 01:35:11 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 21, 2020, 01:00:53 PM
Freedom as in space , 100% they were. Let's take the goal v Kerry,  mulligan catches clean, kerry defender one on one and a yard behind to boot , canavan runs in kerry defence way off him collects the ball of mulligan and he scores a goal.  Them plays dont happen in all Ireland finals nowadays,  the pressure is applied ten fold.

(https://i.ibb.co/d24dGxY/Capture.png)

Just to clear this one up.

Here is a still of the Canavan goal against Kerry in 05. He is actually being picked up by Seamus Moynihan (3x all star defender) and as you can see Moynihan has him goalside and within reach. This is just after Jordan has kicked the ball in. Canavan is then off like a rocket, burns Moynihan, he knows where he needs to be, takes the ball off Mulligan and places a perfect finish into the bottom corner off his weaker foot.

O'Callaghan and Rock were both free to palm/punch their goals in. Mayo got caught out on the overload or didn't track their men.

So you're talking nonsense I'm afraid.

He's ten yards off him, so not actually being picked up by anyone

He's goalside. Canavan should not be getting into a goalscoring position from there but does.

As for 10 yards, are you a midget? That's the smallest 10 yards I've ever seen.

He's wrong footed also, all over the shop, not touch tight, the defending is so poor it reminds me of Tyrone club football

So you're saying 3X all star and former Footballer of The Year Seamus Moynihan is a poor defender?

Moynihan has a good position there, the ball has been played in long, he is a good position to counter Canavan there and to intercept a breaking ball but Canavan loses him and scores a vital goal with a perfect finish.

On this occasion he's all over the shop, watched it there again, I don't know what way he was trying to defend that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN_mP7zBRIM

Presumably he's taken the option to cover Galvin who is one on one at the edge of the square with Mulligan.

Canavan's greatest asset was his speed of thought and that is emblematic of it, he sees that happening before anyone else can, the arc on his run is superb, the finish perfect. He's burst his gut to get on that ball once it has kicked in.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: lenny on December 21, 2020, 03:33:13 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 21, 2020, 01:05:16 PM
Quote from: Hound on December 21, 2020, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on December 21, 2020, 10:56:19 AM
I think the point is that O Connor is not a 'clutch' player. A bit of a flat track bully who will run up big scores in loads of games but when the shite really hits the fan can go missing. Frees do need scored and he does that consistently well but so did my old mate Oisin McConville for instance. Oisin on the other hand I would have put my mortgage on scoring a winner out of nothing in the dying embers of a game with 3 men hanging off him, Canavan the same, Kilkenny the same, I'm not so sure O Connor would. I think he is an excellent player but just a step below the top.

I have a recollection of O'Connor scoring an equalising point in exactly that manner late on v the Dubs. Demanded the ball. Lads hanging off him. Banged it over from distance.

His influenced definitely waned in the second half on Saturday, after he had a really good first half. Hard to know exactly from TV if his runs changed or Dublin's marking changed, but I would imagine the biggest reason was that Mayo dominated midfield in the first half and Dublin the second.

The 2 marks and that catch and hoit from the acute angle in the 1st half from a good supply of ball going in. COC was brilliant in the first half. The supply in the 2nd half pretty much dried up as you say, Fenton came to the fore and Dublin had the middle sector seen up. Christ but Fenton is frustratingly brilliant. You just knew after the 1st half he'd be out all guns blazing in the 2nd.
So we're all now in agreement, O'Connor is 'excellent' and Peter 'The Great' was in fact Peter 'The Average' ;D

Totally agree. What makes the achievements of COC even better is that he is playing in a team with very average forwards. All the pressure and attention is on him. In 1995 canavan had a similar situation after Adrian Cush got injured. He was the go to forward and he completely failed to deliver with only one solitary point from play and a lack of composure when Tyrone got a late chance. By the time 03 and 05 came along he had great forwards along with him like Stephen O'Neill, McGuigan, mulligans and Dooher. That meant he got lots of space and he still couldn't score from play in 03. Kerry gave him way too much latitude in 05 putting their best markers on the other forwards and he still only got 2 scores. The more angelo continues with this argument the more I agree with him that canavan was an average enough forward.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 03:41:00 PM
Quote from: lenny on December 21, 2020, 03:33:13 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on December 21, 2020, 01:05:16 PM
Quote from: Hound on December 21, 2020, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on December 21, 2020, 10:56:19 AM
I think the point is that O Connor is not a 'clutch' player. A bit of a flat track bully who will run up big scores in loads of games but when the shite really hits the fan can go missing. Frees do need scored and he does that consistently well but so did my old mate Oisin McConville for instance. Oisin on the other hand I would have put my mortgage on scoring a winner out of nothing in the dying embers of a game with 3 men hanging off him, Canavan the same, Kilkenny the same, I'm not so sure O Connor would. I think he is an excellent player but just a step below the top.

I have a recollection of O'Connor scoring an equalising point in exactly that manner late on v the Dubs. Demanded the ball. Lads hanging off him. Banged it over from distance.

His influenced definitely waned in the second half on Saturday, after he had a really good first half. Hard to know exactly from TV if his runs changed or Dublin's marking changed, but I would imagine the biggest reason was that Mayo dominated midfield in the first half and Dublin the second.

The 2 marks and that catch and hoit from the acute angle in the 1st half from a good supply of ball going in. COC was brilliant in the first half. The supply in the 2nd half pretty much dried up as you say, Fenton came to the fore and Dublin had the middle sector seen up. Christ but Fenton is frustratingly brilliant. You just knew after the 1st half he'd be out all guns blazing in the 2nd.
So we're all now in agreement, O'Connor is 'excellent' and Peter 'The Great' was in fact Peter 'The Average' ;D

Totally agree. What makes the achievements of COC even better is that he is playing in a team with very average forwards. All the pressure and attention is on him. In 1995 canavan had a similar situation after Adrian Cush got injured. He was the go to forward and he completely failed to deliver with only one solitary point from play and a lack of composure when Tyrone got a late chance. By the time 03 and 05 came along he had great forwards along with him like Stephen O'Neill, McGuigan, mulligans and Dooher. That meant he got lots of space and he still couldn't score from play in 03. Kerry gave him way too much latitude in 05 putting their best markers on the other forwards and he still only got 2 scores. The more angelo continues with this argument the more I agree with him that canavan was an average enough forward.

Yet wing backs and forwards who play half the game time on the same team outscore him from open play in All Ireland finals.

Someone would want to tell Andy Moran he was an average forward too.

Interesting.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: SouthDublinBro on December 21, 2020, 08:47:28 PM
Can anyone provide any film reel of evidence of COC actually beating a man in ANY game? Actually skinning someone, running past him and scoring a point?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on December 21, 2020, 09:08:01 PM
This thread is getting more ridiculous by the day. There are loads of examples where Cillian skins his man and scores. Look at the 2nd goal vs Tipperary,  some of his points vs Kerry in 17, Tyrone in 16, the goal vs Kerry in 2011 and many many other occasions.

5-40 he scored in championship 2020. An average of 11 points per game. He was also the top scorer from play before people pipe up about frees.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 21, 2020, 11:27:17 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 21, 2020, 09:08:01 PM
This thread is getting more ridiculous by the day. There are loads of examples where Cillian skins his man and scores. Look at the 2nd goal vs Tipperary,  some of his points vs Kerry in 17, Tyrone in 16, the goal vs Kerry in 2011 and many many other occasions.

5-40 he scored in championship 2020. An average of 11 points per game. He was also the top scorer from play before people pipe up about frees.

But the point is that he's a finisher. Elite forwards are more than finishers, they can be a one man band if they need to be. O'Connor is a heavy scorer when Mayo are blitzreiging teams and players are queuing up to score.

I've posted some facts here.

The fact that Andy Moran and Lee Keegan had outscored COC in All Ireland finals from play and in Championship games against Dublin. The fact that O'Connor has won just 0-02 of frees he has scored from 1-54 now. Do they replicate the sort of return from elite forwards you would expect, or not?

A blitzreig team performance against Tipp is a grand way of padding your stats. If you swapped Conor McManus into the Mayo team and Cillian O'Connor into the Monaghan team - how do you think both respective counties would have got on? I think Mayo quite possibly could have a couple of All Irelands and Monaghan would not have an Ulster Championship to their name, never mind two.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 11:58:23 PM
Points of views, your 'facts' or stats suit your view. That's all. Roger is a better tennis player than Nadal. End of (in my view)
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on December 22, 2020, 12:02:24 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 11:58:23 PM
Points of views, your 'facts' or stats suit your view. That's all. Roger is a better tennis player than Nadal. End of (in my view)

Yeah but could roger do it in the Ulster championships
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 22, 2020, 12:03:35 AM
Quote from: larryin89 on December 22, 2020, 12:02:24 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 11:58:23 PM
Points of views, your 'facts' or stats suit your view. That's all. Roger is a better tennis player than Nadal. End of (in my view)

Yeah but could roger do it in the Ulster championships

Better accuracy than Nadal so, yeah
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 22, 2020, 12:41:16 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2020, 11:58:23 PM
Points of views, your 'facts' or stats suit your view. That's all. Roger is a better tennis player than Nadal. End of (in my view)

Stats give us an insight of something.

Nadal dominates Federer.

COC struggles for scores from play when Mayo don't dominate teams and it's the likes of Keegan and Boyle who make them and it's the other players who win the tapover frees. If O'Connor was an elite level forward, he would be able to do a lot more himself, the chips were down for Mayo in the second half and O'Connor disappeared. I'm not suggesting O'Connor is a bottler, I'm stating that his limitations don't allow him to create and get scores an elite level forward would in those circumstances. You can try and argue that but there's not much basis to arguing it. The stats and precedent don't support it.

You can choose to ignore them if you want but I think it shows an obstinance when it comes to looking at the bigger picture.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 22, 2020, 08:52:31 AM
So you go know the supply was far less in the second half than the first half?

Thats a stat you haven't put up. Another stat you've not mentioned was he was marked tighter as the manager at half time gave a rollicking to his defence about the free unchallenged marks he got and two from play.

The tactic of roughing him up in the tunnel at half time could have played another part.  :D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Estimator on December 22, 2020, 09:24:07 AM
It's apparant that Angelo has one set of metrics to measure against O'Connor and another set for everyone else.  If O'Connor had the same scoring stats against the same teams as McShane did last year, he would definitely apply different logic:

Cathal McShane - C'Ship 2019
3-49
Ulster C'Ship
0-7 (0-2f) v Derry - Promoted from Div4
0-6 (0-4f) v Antrim - Div4
0-4 (0-3f) v Donegal - Promoted from Div2

Qualifiers
2-2 v Longford - Div3
0-5 (0-2f) v Kildare - Div2
0-5 (0-3f) v Cavan - Relegated from Div1

Super 8's
0-8 (0-5f) v Roscommon - Relegated from Div1
1-5 (0-4f) v Cork - Relegated from Div2
Didn't Play v Dublin

Semi-final
0-7 (0-3f) v Kerry - Div1

If this was O'Connor, Angelo would point out that he played in 9 games - the most of any player in the scoring charts. Giving him a decent advantage when it comes to scores.

He would also mention that he was 3rd in the scoring averages, behind Rock and O'Shea. Only 0.1 ahead of Collins (Cork).

Angelo would also state that his highest individual score in a game was 0-8, which doesn't even make the top 18 individual scores. Peter Harte makes it with 0-9.

Then Angelo would go through the team's that McShane played. First two teams played in Div4, and he should clearly score heavily against those.

Next up is the first major test, against Donegal, where he only scores 0-1 from play. He was outscored from play by McGeary and R Donnelly. Top forwards shouldn't be outscored by those two.

2-2 scored against a Div 3 side. Expected.

The only Div1 sides Tyrone faced were the relegated teams. Got lucky getting Cavan in the qualifier. That side didn't want to be there after their Ulster final defeat.

Look at Tyrone's 'Super 8' group. One side relegated in Div1 and one from Div2. Of course he should score big against those. Especially Cork after they were annihilated by the Dubs in the first game.

Then the semi final against Kerry, where he was brilliant in the first half, but missed a couple of frees in the second and disappeared when Tyrone needed him.

**I'm judging McShane by Angelo's O'Connor metrics. I think McShane had a superb year and fully deserved his All-Star. However, you can see how easy it is to pick and choose your facts/stats and how they can be presented**
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 22, 2020, 10:24:22 AM
Quote from: Estimator on December 22, 2020, 09:24:07 AM
It's apparant that Angelo has one set of metrics to measure against O'Connor and another set for everyone else.  If O'Connor had the same scoring stats against the same teams as McShane did last year, he would definitely apply different logic:

Cathal McShane - C'Ship 2019
3-49
Ulster C'Ship
0-7 (0-2f) v Derry - Promoted from Div4
0-6 (0-4f) v Antrim - Div4
0-4 (0-3f) v Donegal - Promoted from Div2

Qualifiers
2-2 v Longford - Div3
0-5 (0-2f) v Kildare - Div2
0-5 (0-3f) v Cavan - Relegated from Div1

Super 8's
0-8 (0-5f) v Roscommon - Relegated from Div1
1-5 (0-4f) v Cork - Relegated from Div2
Didn't Play v Dublin

Semi-final
0-7 (0-3f) v Kerry - Div1

If this was O'Connor, Angelo would point out that he played in 9 games - the most of any player in the scoring charts. Giving him a decent advantage when it comes to scores.

He would also mention that he was 3rd in the scoring averages, behind Rock and O'Shea. Only 0.1 ahead of Collins (Cork).

Angelo would also state that his highest individual score in a game was 0-8, which doesn't even make the top 18 individual scores. Peter Harte makes it with 0-9.

Then Angelo would go through the team's that McShane played. First two teams played in Div4, and he should clearly score heavily against those.

Next up is the first major test, against Donegal, where he only scores 0-1 from play. He was outscored from play by McGeary and R Donnelly. Top forwards shouldn't be outscored by those two.

2-2 scored against a Div 3 side. Expected.

The only Div1 sides Tyrone faced were the relegated teams. Got lucky getting Cavan in the qualifier. That side didn't want to be there after their Ulster final defeat.

Look at Tyrone's 'Super 8' group. One side relegated in Div1 and one from Div2. Of course he should score big against those. Especially Cork after they were annihilated by the Dubs in the first game.

Then the semi final against Kerry, where he was brilliant in the first half, but missed a couple of frees in the second and disappeared when Tyrone needed him.

**I'm judging McShane by Angelo's O'Connor metrics. I think McShane had a superb year and fully deserved his All-Star. However, you can see how easy it is to pick and choose your facts/stats and how they can be presented**

McShane does an awful lot more than score though. He is the primary ball winner in what was mainly a one man full forward line, he was the primary man to win frees. You look at the difference of the type of scores they get, McShane has to win the ball against 2 or 3 defenders, beat his man and put it over the bar. Whereas O'Connor generally peels off as Mayo have men over running through and taps over points under little pressure. O'Connor has generally played with one or two ball winners inside along with him to do the dirty work. Andy Moran has some of the best movement I've seen from a forward and laid so many scores on a plate for O'Connor - he was an elite level forward.

Take the Kerry game last year for instance. McShane scored 0-03 from frees, he won 2 of the frees himself. Scored another 0-04 from play. He pretty much carried Tyrone last year. Elite forwards can do that, I haven't seen O'Connor do that. I have seen him score heavily when his team are on top but when his team aren't he struggles badly. The elite level forward can carry the battle on their own.

O'Connor has won the 0-02 from 1-54 of the frees and penalties he has taken against Dublin in contrast. He has scored 1-10 from play against them in 9 games.

That's the type of contrast we are talking about here.

A guy who can do everything in a forward line and a guy who can finish.


Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: larryin89 on December 22, 2020, 11:23:15 AM
Look , I'll tell you this,cillian would be my first man on team sheet again next year
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 22, 2020, 11:32:07 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I don't see anything to change my mind.

Mayo have been the second best team by a comfortable distance over the past decade.

O'Connor has been outscored by a wing back in his own team in Championship games against Dublin.

McCurry was an example of someone who would also score heavily in that Mayo team. Is O'Connor a better forward than Rian O'Neill, Campbell, Grugan and Jamie Clarke? Very debatable.

What we do know is that unless the service and dominance is there from Mayo that O'Connor struggles.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on December 22, 2020, 11:42:25 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

Will be quiet 'round here when Angelo comes off furlough  ;D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 22, 2020, 12:34:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 22, 2020, 11:32:07 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I don't see anything to change my mind.

Mayo have been the second best team by a comfortable distance over the past decade.

O'Connor has been outscored by a wing back in his own team in Championship games against Dublin.

McCurry was an example of someone who would also score heavily in that Mayo team. Is O'Connor a better forward than Rian O'Neill, Campbell, Grugan and Jamie Clarke? Very debatable.

What we do know is that unless the service and dominance is there from Mayo that O'Connor struggles.

Any team that doesn't win it's possession up the field will stop their forwards from scoring? Even you can understand that?

Why you change it to bring in Dublin yo suit your stat is bizarre
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 22, 2020, 12:47:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 22, 2020, 12:34:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 22, 2020, 11:32:07 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I don't see anything to change my mind.

Mayo have been the second best team by a comfortable distance over the past decade.

O'Connor has been outscored by a wing back in his own team in Championship games against Dublin.

McCurry was an example of someone who would also score heavily in that Mayo team. Is O'Connor a better forward than Rian O'Neill, Campbell, Grugan and Jamie Clarke? Very debatable.

What we do know is that unless the service and dominance is there from Mayo that O'Connor struggles.

Any team that doesn't win it's possession up the field will stop their forwards from scoring? Even you can understand that?

Why you change it to bring in Dublin yo suit your stat is bizarre

It's not as simple as that. I have seen the likes of McShane and McManus in recent seasons operating as a one man full forward line, winning ball ahead of three or four defenders, winning frees and getting scores. The elite forwards don't stand out when their team are wiping out the opponent, they stand out when their team is struggling, when they are being fed on scraps and they do the business.

As I've consistently said, O'Connor is a great finisher but he's not a great forward. He's not the type of forward who can do it himself ala Conor McManus or even Andy Moran a few years back.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 22, 2020, 01:01:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 22, 2020, 12:47:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 22, 2020, 12:34:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 22, 2020, 11:32:07 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I don't see anything to change my mind.

Mayo have been the second best team by a comfortable distance over the past decade.

O'Connor has been outscored by a wing back in his own team in Championship games against Dublin.

McCurry was an example of someone who would also score heavily in that Mayo team. Is O'Connor a better forward than Rian O'Neill, Campbell, Grugan and Jamie Clarke? Very debatable.

What we do know is that unless the service and dominance is there from Mayo that O'Connor struggles.

Any team that doesn't win it's possession up the field will stop their forwards from scoring? Even you can understand that?

Why you change it to bring in Dublin yo suit your stat is bizarre

It's not as simple as that. I have seen the likes of McShane and McManus in recent seasons operating as a one man full forward line, winning ball ahead of three or four defenders, winning frees and getting scores. The elite forwards don't stand out when their team are wiping out the opponent, they stand out when their team is struggling, when they are being fed on scraps and they do the business.

As I've consistently said, O'Connor is a great finisher but he's not a great forward. He's not the type of forward who can do it himself ala Conor McManus or even Andy Moran a few years back.

You've some hard on for McShane
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 22, 2020, 01:08:11 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 22, 2020, 01:01:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 22, 2020, 12:47:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 22, 2020, 12:34:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 22, 2020, 11:32:07 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I don't see anything to change my mind.

Mayo have been the second best team by a comfortable distance over the past decade.

O'Connor has been outscored by a wing back in his own team in Championship games against Dublin.

McCurry was an example of someone who would also score heavily in that Mayo team. Is O'Connor a better forward than Rian O'Neill, Campbell, Grugan and Jamie Clarke? Very debatable.

What we do know is that unless the service and dominance is there from Mayo that O'Connor struggles.

Any team that doesn't win it's possession up the field will stop their forwards from scoring? Even you can understand that?

Why you change it to bring in Dublin yo suit your stat is bizarre

It's not as simple as that. I have seen the likes of McShane and McManus in recent seasons operating as a one man full forward line, winning ball ahead of three or four defenders, winning frees and getting scores. The elite forwards don't stand out when their team are wiping out the opponent, they stand out when their team is struggling, when they are being fed on scraps and they do the business.

As I've consistently said, O'Connor is a great finisher but he's not a great forward. He's not the type of forward who can do it himself ala Conor McManus or even Andy Moran a few years back.

You've some hard on for McShane

He was outstanding last year. Top overall scorer in the championship and from play.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 01:14:57 PM
He wasn't outstanding at all in the 2019 Donegal defeat or the 2nd half against Kerry. I remember him missing easy frees and shots from play which swung the momentum towards Kerry.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 22, 2020, 01:20:09 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 01:14:57 PM
He wasn't outstanding at all in the 2019 Donegal defeat or the 2nd half against Kerry. I remember him missing easy frees and shots from play which swung the momentum towards Kerry.

I'm talking about his contribution from play.

He was outstanding in the second half against Kerry, consistently created chances and won frees as pretty much a lone man full forward.

I wouldn't have McShane as our free taker next year, think McKenna will take over that duty once he becomes a bit more acclimatised. I expect big things from McShane next year as the Tyrone forward line finally looks to have some real quality throughout for the first time since 2005 really.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: tonto1888 on December 22, 2020, 08:38:25 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I'd love OConnor in the Armagh forward line
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Angelo on December 23, 2020, 09:53:15 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 22, 2020, 08:38:25 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I'd love OConnor in the Armagh forward line

It's not forwards Armagh need.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on December 23, 2020, 11:11:03 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 23, 2020, 09:53:15 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 22, 2020, 08:38:25 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I'd love OConnor in the Armagh forward line

It's not forwards Armagh need.

Geezer would play him Full Back....
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Tres Bien on September 29, 2021, 11:38:09 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

Prophetic from Angelo

The Dazzler stood up and delivered, it was always there with him and great to see him show how an elite level forward can operate, he brought his game to another level this year but the signs were there last year for Tyrone. Hopefully he can maintain this form for a few more years on the intercounty scene.

A pity Cillian O'Connor wasn't available for Mayo as he would have been able to score 1-07 from tap over frees and a penalty that Mayo had two weeks ago, people here have very poor understandings of the game. O'Connor is a good finisher but his movement, mobility and one sidedness let him down. He's overhyped because he scores heavy, look at Mayo this year - have they missed him no? He'd just be taking scores off O'Donoghue and not adding them to Mayo. He's grand when you can steamroll opposition and create the handpass for the free man to hit into an empty net but it doesn't cut it in All Ireland finals.

The Dazzler on the other hand, hit a lovely 1-02 from play, won two frees in the first half with his lovely shift of balance, one which should have been a black card. That's what an elite level forward does on All Ireland final day. Dazzler's first final, MOTM in the bag and medal in his back pocket.

That's nothing personal against O'Connor, it's all valid criticism. I'd have been critical of McCurry in the past myself but I never doubted his skill or ability and it's the work he has put in on his shortcomings, like compensating for his lack of size with serious conditioning work and endless work on improving his movement and fielding.

This could be quite a short, fleeting appearance so I will try and cover everything. First of all well done to Tyrone, well done to management and players. Particularly guys like McGeary, Burns and Meyler who rammed it down the throats of the slabberers on here, I'm looking at you Trailer. Do you even know if a ball is pumped or stuffed? I'd speculate you're about 5ft2? Great man on here to get very nasty and personal with certain players, two of whom are now front runners for player of the year. Good to see abusive trolls like you being shut up in the right manner. Absolutely delighted for this set of players given the fact that they have came in for a lot of criticism in recent years.

Dooher and Logan have done a superb job, far exceeded my expectations this year with a shortened season and all that went on. We had the breaks fall our way this year and made the most of them but for a new management team to win an All Ireland in such a condensed season with no backdoor or room to make mistakes? Superb.

The Covid situation was absolutely scurrilous, as Meyler said on the GAA Social it seemed to be the sourthern press who were driving the narrative. The slurs about vaccination and going were disgusting. One thing that really pissed me off was the accusations about players not taking the vaccine, it's a personal choice. I know we have some absolutely rabid vaccine fascists on here who wish to impose their views dogmatically on others but this is a decisions to make personal decisions, informed decisions and have them respected. The way the vaccine roll out worked up north, people in the 20-30 age bracket which all these Tyrone players fell in under would have likely been due to have one of their jabs in middle of Championship. I can understand why there would be hesitancy in taking a vaccine a few days before a big game and the worries on what impact it may have had on them. That's understandable so why the pile on because players made the choice not, the usual anti northern bias from the Free Staters.

The next big issue, the assertions from spineless gurriers like Spillane, like John Fogarty that Tyrone should have had their players vaccinated like Kerry, Cork and Limerick and Mayo should have done. This opened up a can of worms for me that the Free State press didn't touch with a bargepole. If all these southern panels were all fully vaccinated by mid Aug then:
a) When were they vaccinated?
b) Did county panels pull strokes to jump the vaccine queues?
Serious questions to be asked there but I guess because Tyrone played ball with the vaccine rollout and didn't pull strokes to get their panels vaccinated ahead of the general population lets destroy them for doing that and turn a blind eye to the counties that did.

Down south the vaccine portal only opened for 25-29s in mid July so likely the two shots would not have been got until late Aug.

https://www.thejournal.ie/vaccine-portal-open-25-29-tomorrow-5496022-Jul2021/

The vaccine portal only opened for 18-24s in late July so again how could all these panels be vaccinated without jumping the queue? It apparently takes minimum 2 weeks for immunity to take effect after the second dose so again, all these questions draw serious light on certain county panels and the strokes pulled but it was Tyrone who got slaughtered over playing ball with the rules in place. It was a disgusting attack and it made that Kerry victory oh so f**king sweet.

Finally I will touch on my departure here, I got banned on here because I compared Rory McIlroy to Lleyton Hewitt. I thought this was a GAA forum but it seems be an echo chamber for middle aged bores to pat each on the back over their inane and very boring opinions. Go back and read this thread in entirety, the poster who knew what he was talking about was Angelo, he was the poster who was prophetic, who delivered a tour de force on this thread. His posts were well articulated, he dealt in facts, he always substantiated any views he had with data and supporting evidence. He had conviction in his views. He was a prophet and he was ran off this board because the middle aged bores didn't like it when he ran rings around them.

That's not all of you guys on here, some of you are alright, can hold a conversation without behaving like an 8 year old girl and running off for teacher when you start losing an argument or have your views challenged and are asked to substantiate them. For those of you who I would consider in the alright category, do you appreciate the fact that mob rule applies on here. MR2 have carte blanche to personally abuse posters ad nauseum with insults and smarmy smart arse comment without ever getting a word from a moderator. You have a dolt like Rossfan who nobody finds funny other than himself who destroys thread after thread with his inane, dull, village idiot comments. Wobbler running about like a child with a petted lip because people have differing opinions to him. Hound with his poorly constructed post of conceited arrogance. You all accept that and say nothing but when those some guys feel threatened by a superior poster running rings around him and frenzy up a group to lobby a mod to take action on them because he makes them look silly? That's a bit much isn't it?

And last but not least, the sheer pain those bitter Derry lads must have had watching Hampsey lifting Sam. Lenny, Screenexile, you bitter, bitter mopes.  ;D ;D ;D

So adios dickheads, no doubt the spineless mod will along to ban me shortly and probably delete this post as he's not much of a man to show a bit of transparency with his double standards. Enjoy your echo chamber.

2021 - Campioni d'Europa
2021 - All Ireland Champions.

Daje Tir Eoghain.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Farrandeelin on September 29, 2021, 12:08:23 PM
Quote from: Tres Bien on September 29, 2021, 11:38:09 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

Prophetic from Angelo

The Dazzler stood up and delivered, it was always there with him and great to see him show how an elite level forward can operate, he brought his game to another level this year but the signs were there last year for Tyrone. Hopefully he can maintain this form for a few more years on the intercounty scene.

A pity Cillian O'Connor wasn't available for Mayo as he would have been able to score 1-07 from tap over frees and a penalty that Mayo had two weeks ago, people here have very poor understandings of the game. O'Connor is a good finisher but his movement, mobility and one sidedness let him down. He's overhyped because he scores heavy, look at Mayo this year - have they missed him no? He'd just be taking scores off O'Donoghue and not adding them to Mayo. He's grand when you can steamroll opposition and create the handpass for the free man to hit into an empty net but it doesn't cut it in All Ireland finals.

The Dazzler on the other hand, hit a lovely 1-02 from play, won two frees in the first half with his lovely shift of balance, one which should have been a black card. That's what an elite level forward does on All Ireland final day. Dazzler's first final, MOTM in the bag and medal in his back pocket.

That's nothing personal against O'Connor, it's all valid criticism. I'd have been critical of McCurry in the past myself but I never doubted his skill or ability and it's the work he has put in on his shortcomings, like compensating for his lack of size with serious conditioning work and endless work on improving his movement and fielding.

This could be quite a short, fleeting appearance so I will try and cover everything. First of all well done to Tyrone, well done to management and players. Particularly guys like McGeary, Burns and Meyler who rammed it down the throats of the slabberers on here, I'm looking at you Trailer. Do you even know if a ball is pumped or stuffed? I'd speculate you're about 5ft2? Great man on here to get very nasty and personal with certain players, two of whom are now front runners for player of the year. Good to see abusive trolls like you being shut up in the right manner. Absolutely delighted for this set of players given the fact that they have came in for a lot of criticism in recent years.

Dooher and Logan have done a superb job, far exceeded my expectations this year with a shortened season and all that went on. We had the breaks fall our way this year and made the most of them but for a new management team to win an All Ireland in such a condensed season with no backdoor or room to make mistakes? Superb.

The Covid situation was absolutely scurrilous, as Meyler said on the GAA Social it seemed to be the sourthern press who were driving the narrative. The slurs about vaccination and going were disgusting. One thing that really pissed me off was the accusations about players not taking the vaccine, it's a personal choice. I know we have some absolutely rabid vaccine fascists on here who wish to impose their views dogmatically on others but this is a decisions to make personal decisions, informed decisions and have them respected. The way the vaccine roll out worked up north, people in the 20-30 age bracket which all these Tyrone players fell in under would have likely been due to have one of their jabs in middle of Championship. I can understand why there would be hesitancy in taking a vaccine a few days before a big game and the worries on what impact it may have had on them. That's understandable so why the pile on because players made the choice not, the usual anti northern bias from the Free Staters.

The next big issue, the assertions from spineless gurriers like Spillane, like John Fogarty that Tyrone should have had their players vaccinated like Kerry, Cork and Limerick and Mayo should have done. This opened up a can of worms for me that the Free State press didn't touch with a bargepole. If all these southern panels were all fully vaccinated by mid Aug then:
a) When were they vaccinated?
b) Did county panels pull strokes to jump the vaccine queues?
Serious questions to be asked there but I guess because Tyrone played ball with the vaccine rollout and didn't pull strokes to get their panels vaccinated ahead of the general population lets destroy them for doing that and turn a blind eye to the counties that did.

Down south the vaccine portal only opened for 25-29s in mid July so likely the two shots would not have been got until late Aug.

https://www.thejournal.ie/vaccine-portal-open-25-29-tomorrow-5496022-Jul2021/

The vaccine portal only opened for 18-24s in late July so again how could all these panels be vaccinated without jumping the queue? It apparently takes minimum 2 weeks for immunity to take effect after the second dose so again, all these questions draw serious light on certain county panels and the strokes pulled but it was Tyrone who got slaughtered over playing ball with the rules in place. It was a disgusting attack and it made that Kerry victory oh so f**king sweet.

Finally I will touch on my departure here, I got banned on here because I compared Rory McIlroy to Lleyton Hewitt. I thought this was a GAA forum but it seems be an echo chamber for middle aged bores to pat each on the back over their inane and very boring opinions. Go back and read this thread in entirety, the poster who knew what he was talking about was Angelo, he was the poster who was prophetic, who delivered a tour de force on this thread. His posts were well articulated, he dealt in facts, he always substantiated any views he had with data and supporting evidence. He had conviction in his views. He was a prophet and he was ran off this board because the middle aged bores didn't like it when he ran rings around them.

That's not all of you guys on here, some of you are alright, can hold a conversation without behaving like an 8 year old girl and running off for teacher when you start losing an argument or have your views challenged and are asked to substantiate them. For those of you who I would consider in the alright category, do you appreciate the fact that mob rule applies on here. MR2 have carte blanche to personally abuse posters ad nauseum with insults and smarmy smart arse comment without ever getting a word from a moderator. You have a dolt like Rossfan who nobody finds funny other than himself who destroys thread after thread with his inane, dull, village idiot comments. Wobbler running about like a child with a petted lip because people have differing opinions to him. Hound with his poorly constructed post of conceited arrogance. You all accept that and say nothing but when those some guys feel threatened by a superior poster running rings around him and frenzy up a group to lobby a mod to take action on them because he makes them look silly? That's a bit much isn't it?

And last but not least, the sheer pain those bitter Derry lads must have had watching Hampsey lifting Sam. Lenny, Screenexile, you bitter, bitter mopes.  ;D ;D ;D

So adios dickheads, no doubt the spineless mod will along to ban me shortly and probably delete this post as he's not much of a man to show a bit of transparency with his double standards. Enjoy your echo chamber.

2021 - Campioni d'Europa
2021 - All Ireland Champions.

Daje Tir Eoghain.

Welcome back and comhghairdeas on your victory.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on September 29, 2021, 12:54:41 PM
Has anyone came back for the umpteenth time and completely blew a gasket on the 1st post back? Usually there's a gradual build up over a few weeks.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on September 29, 2021, 01:28:42 PM
This is hilarious. And a bit sad. But mostly hilarious.

Im away to watch Fr Ted when he won the Golden Cleric award
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: thewobbler on September 29, 2021, 01:40:32 PM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on September 29, 2021, 01:28:42 PM
This is hilarious. And a bit sad. But mostly hilarious.

Im away to watch Fr Ted when he won the Golden Cleric award

Lol, summed up perfectly.

Lleyton Hewitt the saviour of a GAA discussion board. Who'd a thunk it?

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: tiempo on September 29, 2021, 01:51:59 PM
Quote from: Tres Bien on September 29, 2021, 11:38:09 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I'd speculate you're about 5ft2?

Dead  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Farrandeelin on September 29, 2021, 04:30:45 PM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on September 29, 2021, 01:28:42 PM
This is hilarious. And a bit sad. But mostly hilarious.

Im away to watch Fr Ted when he won the Golden Cleric award

;D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Tres Bien on September 29, 2021, 05:27:06 PM
Oh. I haven't been banned yet. Great.

How is everyone anyway?

Screenexile, Lenny, JOG2. How are the therapy sessions going? You must have done some job on the house when the final whistle went on the 11th. I'd say ye were off to IKEA the following day to replace all the plates and kitchenware ye smashed up. It's a shame you all focus so much of your time and energy on trying to sling mud on Tyrone and Tyrone football as you have some decent players come through but sure that's the Derry mentality I suppose.

I don't imagine I'll be around for long but if I think of any more scores to settle or any more shits I forgot to call out in the first post I'll make sure to try and fit them in.

Ulster football looking wild healthy at the minute and football in a more positive place now. Tyrone winning will give other teams plenty of confidence that they are not that far off them.

Mayo were well beaten on the day, I think they are currently a level or two below where they were a few years back, don't have the same abundance of quality in the middle third. Carrying a few lads like Plunkett, Loftus, AOS in that team. DOC has also regressed a huge amount in the past 3 years, I would have rated him extremely highly a few years back but looks a pale shadow of that player now. The Mayo teams of 2013-2017 would win an All Ireland or two in the next 5 years I think which is unfortunate for them as the quality has dropped a wee bit now and it kind of reminds me of the 08-11 time when Tyrone, Kerry and Armagh began to wane and there was not real standout team in that era so there were All Irelands to be picked up.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 29, 2021, 06:28:11 PM
 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: LeoMc on September 29, 2021, 06:46:41 PM
When was Angelo banned?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: GAABoardMod5 on September 29, 2021, 09:12:47 PM
Quote from: Tres Bien on September 29, 2021, 11:38:09 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on December 22, 2020, 11:28:55 AM




So adios dickheads,

Adios - you will be held to this.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Farrandeelin on September 29, 2021, 09:25:06 PM
Banned again?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: GAABoardMod5 on September 29, 2021, 09:27:17 PM
Nope...self imposed exile it seems.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on September 29, 2021, 10:30:29 PM
God love him, he's more personalities than Kevin Wendell Crumb!!!
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on September 29, 2021, 11:52:23 PM
Hes some boy. Bit of Spanish, French, Italian and Irish in his short but sweet return. Settles few scores with old nemesises, slags off the Derry wans (tho not me i didnt even show on his radar) as well as exhaulting his Trone team and how clever he is/was.

Twas quite the return. Hes planned that post for 6weeks minimum
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: CK_Redhand on September 30, 2021, 07:13:39 AM
I won't bother quoting but the paragraphs prasing angelo as a prophet and running rings around other posters etc. are quite telling.

If people see a discussion board as some sort of contest to prove who is smartest then they have some sort of insecurity complex.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Armagh18 on September 30, 2021, 08:09:28 AM
Great to have him back
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Tres Bien on September 30, 2021, 09:31:28 AM
Quote from: CK_Redhand on September 30, 2021, 07:13:39 AM
If people see a discussion board as some sort of contest to prove who is smartest then they have some sort of insecurity complex.

Just to contend this before my sojourn is cut short. I merely operate at the mercy of when a few petulant souls kick up a fuss on when their enjoyment is impacted and the moderator bows to pressure.

The reason Angelo was banned off this forum is some people see this discussion board as an echo chamber and when they disagree with others go around lobbying the moderator to censor people's viewpoints.

Is this a GAA discussion board or a discussion board of petulant and hyper sensitive Rory McIlroy fanboys? It's hard to tell.

As the great bard Jamie Vardy once said - "Chat shit, get banged".

I prefer to have full artistic license on what I post, not being told that I can't compare Rory McIlory to Lleyton Hewitt because it upsets a few middle aged lads trying to climb social ladders. If that's what this forum has become then so be it but I think the onus should be on posters to call out those who are trying to direct this forum into a golf club echo chamber.

END OF SPEECH.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Milltown Row2 on September 30, 2021, 09:51:06 AM
Quote from: Tres Bien on September 30, 2021, 09:31:28 AM
Quote from: CK_Redhand on September 30, 2021, 07:13:39 AM
If people see a discussion board as some sort of contest to prove who is smartest then they have some sort of insecurity complex.

Just to contend this before my sojourn is cut short. I merely operate at the mercy of when a few petulant souls kick up a fuss on when their enjoyment is impacted and the moderator bows to pressure.

The reason Angelo was banned off this forum is some people see this discussion board as an echo chamber and when they disagree with others go around lobbying the moderator to censor people's viewpoints.

Is this a GAA discussion board or a discussion board of petulant and hyper sensitive Rory McIlroy fanboys? It's hard to tell.

As the great bard Jamie Vardy once said - "Chat shit, get banged".

I prefer to have full artistic license on what I post, not being told that I can't compare Rory McIlory to Lleyton Hewitt because it upsets a few middle aged lads trying to climb social ladders. If that's what this forum has become then so be it but I think the onus should be on posters to call out those who are trying to direct this forum into a golf club echo chamber.

END OF SPEECH.

I'm calling you out as a WUM, The use of echo chamber fit's you to a T, you waffle on and when caught out on topics you feck aff, as for this place being a place to climb a social ladder!! WTF does that even mean?

Up Novak  ;) Nadal is a hasbeen  ;D
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Tres Bien on September 30, 2021, 09:59:15 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 30, 2021, 09:51:06 AM
Quote from: Tres Bien on September 30, 2021, 09:31:28 AM
Quote from: CK_Redhand on September 30, 2021, 07:13:39 AM
If people see a discussion board as some sort of contest to prove who is smartest then they have some sort of insecurity complex.

Just to contend this before my sojourn is cut short. I merely operate at the mercy of when a few petulant souls kick up a fuss on when their enjoyment is impacted and the moderator bows to pressure.

The reason Angelo was banned off this forum is some people see this discussion board as an echo chamber and when they disagree with others go around lobbying the moderator to censor people's viewpoints.

Is this a GAA discussion board or a discussion board of petulant and hyper sensitive Rory McIlroy fanboys? It's hard to tell.

As the great bard Jamie Vardy once said - "Chat shit, get banged".

I prefer to have full artistic license on what I post, not being told that I can't compare Rory McIlory to Lleyton Hewitt because it upsets a few middle aged lads trying to climb social ladders. If that's what this forum has become then so be it but I think the onus should be on posters to call out those who are trying to direct this forum into a golf club echo chamber.

END OF SPEECH.

I'm calling you out as a WUM, The use of echo chamber fit's you to a T, you waffle on and when caught out on topics you feck aff, as for this place being a place to climb a social ladder!! WTF does that even mean?

Up Novak  ;) Nadal is a hasbeen  ;D

A wum would not be able to make such compelling and substantiated arguments.

If you want to see quality debating, sincerity and good faith entered in a debate then read Angelo's contributions on this point. He represented his take on COC, he put forward his argument, explained his rationale, backed it up with data and specific incidents and was entirely vindicated. He did that in the face of vitriol, in the face of misrepresntations of what he said, with calmness, civility and poise.

He was very earnest about the whole thing and some posters could really doing with grabbing themselves a notepad and jotting down some points. Angelo was a poster on here who should not be questioned, he should be admired, he should be referenced and used as a benchmark for good ethics and fairplay. I sense his downfall on here was classic Irish bregrudgery, he was ambitious and he was an achiever, maybe he defeated too many posters on here, maybe they couldn't let resentment go. Maybe he flew too close to the sun. Either way I think it's vital we have his legacy to remember and that his legacy can save this forum from being a golf club echo chamber with differing opinions and challenging of the narrative are not accepted.
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on September 30, 2021, 10:14:53 AM
Uhoh. Talking in the third person. This declines gona be quicker than i thought.

Jibbajabba is concerned
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: Keyser soze on September 30, 2021, 11:19:10 AM
Can I just use up a few lines and moments of your time to laud the calm, rational and considered posts made by Keyser soze over the past few months.

In spite of a concerted campaign by other infantile posters, and yes that includes you Mod3, he has consistently vanquished all-comers with his superior debating skills, vast knowledge and well rounded temperament. The fact that he also has a great body only serves to goad the various lads with their middle aged spreads into further rash challenges to his superiority.

Easily overcoming their infantile thrusts Keyser has ably demonstrated that you may believe in God but the only thing you will fear is Keyser soze.

Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: JoG2 on September 30, 2021, 12:14:04 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on September 30, 2021, 11:19:10 AM
Can I just use up a few lines and moments of your time to laud the calm, rational and considered posts made by Keyser soze over the past few months.

In spite of a concerted campaign by other infantile posters, and yes that includes you Mod3, he has consistently vanquished all-comers with his superior debating skills, vast knowledge and well rounded temperament. The fact that he also has a great body only serves to goad the various lads with their middle aged spreads into further rash challenges to his superiority.

Easily overcoming their infantile thrusts Keyser has ably demonstrated that you may believe in God but the only thing you will fear is Keyser soze.

Big and fat, like orca fat?
Title: Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
Post by: J70 on October 01, 2021, 12:58:57 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on September 30, 2021, 11:19:10 AM
Can I just use up a few lines and moments of your time to laud the calm, rational and considered posts made by Keyser soze over the past few months.

In spite of a concerted campaign by other infantile posters, and yes that includes you Mod3, he has consistently vanquished all-comers with his superior debating skills, vast knowledge and well rounded temperament. The fact that he also has a great body only serves to goad the various lads with their middle aged spreads into further rash challenges to his superiority.

Easily overcoming their infantile thrusts Keyser has ably demonstrated that you may believe in God but the only thing you will fear is Keyser soze.

;D