Author Topic: The "PC Brigade" brigade  (Read 1685 times)

J70

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10157
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2017, 08:20:51 PM »
But does the confederate flag symbolise slavery, or does it just symbolise the Southern States of the US, which included slavery. I'm not sure the Stars and Bars are a racist symbol in and of themselves, but obviously the rebels that flew it wanted to hold onto their secessionary status, and their slaves. Would the single star of the 'Bonnie Blue Flag' be deemed racist if it was flown?

The problem here, I believe, is not because they are flying a colourful flag which was used by the Army of Virginia in the civil war, and made famous in multiple movies and TV shows as part of the old South Yee Haw. It's because it's been taken over and used as a symbol of hate by the KKK and the Alt Right. That in itself is enough to disown it, as it does not have an official standing to fall back on, as a national flag would have.
It symbolises an economic system that was based on slavery that the South went to war to defend. And they lost.
You will never please everyone. Down Dixie way, you will be told that the Yanks started the
war  because the Southern states could sell their produce cheaper than their Northern counterparts. Dunno how true that is that view is widely held in the south.

It's not true.

Slavery was far and away the primary issue. Even the articles of secession stated as such. It's pure self-serving denialism and propaganda on the part of southerners to suggest otherwise.

gallsman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5976
  • Retired
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2017, 08:45:58 PM »


Is it ok to call someone (presumably you mean a somewhat random female, not your wife or daughter) "love" or "sweetheart"? No it clearly f**king isn't.
Why is it not ok to use terms of endearment to refer to someone? I use them all the time? Are you an Antrim man? you've never called anyone mate or mucker? Love? I struggle to believe your stance on this one is genuine and thought out...

Are you backward if you use "he" or "she"? No. Tell me about the overwhelmingly large PC Brigade crusade to limit your ability to do so.
Why are you not backward if you use he or she but backward if you use love or sweetheart? I never mentioned an overwhelmingly large PC brigade crusade - I just pointed out examples

Is renaming it a spring sphere hunt completely over the top, daft nonsense? Yes. Are you backward that you get "upset" about this? Absolutely.
Why am I backward because I am upset?
Are you backward because you are upset at me and cursing me out?...

Term of endearment? What right have you to use terms of endearment to the girl in Starbucks? Or behind the till in Walmart? It's sexist and demeaning to address someone as such if you've no relationship with them that merits its use. Comparing it to mate or mucker (not a Belfast term fyi) is laughable.

He or she are simply pronouns. Nothing more. Nobody any pays the slightest bit of attention to is campaigning for the use of "ze".

Why are you backward because your upset? Because your upset about something that has literally zero impact on how you wish to live your life or raise your kids. You are actively searching for things to get offended about.

As for me being backward for being upset by you, I'm not upset by you in the slightest. Rather I find you highly entertaining.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

The Iceman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3397
  • Here comes the Pain
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2017, 09:00:45 PM »


Is it ok to call someone (presumably you mean a somewhat random female, not your wife or daughter) "love" or "sweetheart"? No it clearly f**king isn't.
Why is it not ok to use terms of endearment to refer to someone? I use them all the time? Are you an Antrim man? you've never called anyone mate or mucker? Love? I struggle to believe your stance on this one is genuine and thought out...

Are you backward if you use "he" or "she"? No. Tell me about the overwhelmingly large PC Brigade crusade to limit your ability to do so.
Why are you not backward if you use he or she but backward if you use love or sweetheart? I never mentioned an overwhelmingly large PC brigade crusade - I just pointed out examples

Is renaming it a spring sphere hunt completely over the top, daft nonsense? Yes. Are you backward that you get "upset" about this? Absolutely.
Why am I backward because I am upset?
Are you backward because you are upset at me and cursing me out?...

Term of endearment? What right have you to use terms of endearment to the girl in Starbucks? Or behind the till in Walmart? It's sexist and demeaning to address someone as such if you've no relationship with them that merits its use. Comparing it to mate or mucker (not a Belfast term fyi) is laughable.

He or she are simply pronouns. Nothing more. Nobody any pays the slightest bit of attention to is campaigning for the use of "ze".

Why are you backward because your upset? Because your upset about something that has literally zero impact on how you wish to live your life or raise your kids. You are actively searching for things to get offended about.

As for me being backward for being upset by you, I'm not upset by you in the slightest. Rather I find you highly entertaining.
who are you to assume anyone is your mate or mucker? Or call someone lad? Why is laughable to compare mate to love or dear?

usually when you find something/one entertaining you don't curse at them..the sun is going to your head ze
I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight

Eamonnca1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4450
  • Catching the world in my headlights of justice
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2017, 09:09:43 PM »
Term of endearment? What right have you to use terms of endearment to the girl in Starbucks? Or behind the till in Walmart? It's sexist and demeaning to address someone as such if you've no relationship with them that merits its use. Comparing it to mate or mucker (not a Belfast term fyi) is laughable.


Jesus. I'd stay away from Yorkshire if I were you. Every shopkeeper there will call you "love." You'd be horrified!

gallsman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5976
  • Retired
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2017, 09:22:17 PM »
I'm not sure you fully get how personal pronouns work there Iceman.

I find football, hurling, soccer, rugby etc highly entertaining and I curse at them all the time.

Term of endearment? What right have you to use terms of endearment to the girl in Starbucks? Or behind the till in Walmart? It's sexist and demeaning to address someone as such if you've no relationship with them that merits its use. Comparing it to mate or mucker (not a Belfast term fyi) is laughable.


Jesus. I'd stay away from Yorkshire if I were you. Every shopkeeper there will call you "love." You'd be horrified!

I'm familiar with the place. Just because it happens a lot doesn't make it right.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

Eamonnca1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4450
  • Catching the world in my headlights of justice
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2017, 09:28:17 PM »
So every dialect in the north of England is sexist because they call you "love?"

easytiger95

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #66 on: Today at 11:20:05 AM »
But does the confederate flag symbolise slavery, or does it just symbolise the Southern States of the US, which included slavery. I'm not sure the Stars and Bars are a racist symbol in and of themselves, but obviously the rebels that flew it wanted to hold onto their secessionary status, and their slaves. Would the single star of the 'Bonnie Blue Flag' be deemed racist if it was flown?

The problem here, I believe, is not because they are flying a colourful flag which was used by the Army of Virginia in the civil war, and made famous in multiple movies and TV shows as part of the old South Yee Haw. It's because it's been taken over and used as a symbol of hate by the KKK and the Alt Right. That in itself is enough to disown it, as it does not have an official standing to fall back on, as a national flag would have.

C'mon AZ. You're dancing on the head of a pin. Slavery was the lynchpin of the Southern economy, and because of its importance, a complex belief system of various different mythologies about "negroes" was put in place to safeguard its position. By the time of the Civil War, the South was slavery and slavery was the South. If you believe any different, or even if you're in  any doubt, you're buying into the myth of the lost cause and a chivalrous and romantic antebellum fantasy. Revisionist bullshit of the highest order, and I'd recommend you read a few histories of the Confederacy and ensuing conflict.

As for whistling Dixie, it's all about context - grand if you're doing it by yourself, not great if you are doing it in front of black people in Mississippi. Which, essentially, is what these statues were doing every day to African Americans in Southern States. I'm really surprised that Irish people, who should have some knowledge of how an oppressor implements his oppression, can be so blind to it as to lump it in under "PC". Actually, I'm not surprised, just disappointed.



AZOffaly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22954
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #67 on: Today at 11:55:02 AM »
Thanks Easytiger. I've read quite a bit about the Civil war thanks. Save your patronising comments for someone who might be influenced by them. Apologies if you didn't mean to be patronising, but my hackles go up when someone tells me to read about something I have an interest in already :)

In this context we are asking what does the Flag represent, in the eyes of those who fly it in Ireland. I have outlined on another thread why Cork lads would have, back in the 80s, picked it up. It was cool, it was dukes of hazzard, it was the Southern Rebels.

Of course today, it has been highjacked by Klansmen and alt-rights. You might argue it has always been thus, and you'd be right. However in more recent times, this has come much more front and centre in the public consciousness, and while I have no doubts that the Cork lads have no truck with rednecks who want to wage war essentially with anyone who doesn't agree with their racist agenda, I think it's obvious they should fold away the old battle flag.

easytiger95

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #68 on: Today at 12:10:52 PM »
Well, if you've read a bit about it, I don't know how you come up with a formulation like -

But does the confederate flag symbolise slavery, or does it just symbolise the Southern States of the US, which included slavery

or

Of course today, it has been highjacked by Klansmen and alt-rights.

That "hijack" took place a long, long time ago, and I'm sorry if you think I am being patronising, but even posing the question is ahistorical, and obscuring the actual nature of the Confederacy is a  tactic that has been used by Lost Causers for the past century. My hackles rise when I see something like that, and, knowing you long enough on this board to know that is not the way you roll, I suggested you do some reading. Fair enough, I would have thought.

Finally, to descendants of former slaves, the confederate battle flag symbolises slavery. I would have thought in the context of manners, empathy and where they intersect with PC, that is all that matters.

AZOffaly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22954
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #69 on: Today at 12:19:25 PM »
Well, if you've read a bit about it, I don't know how you come up with a formulation like -

But does the confederate flag symbolise slavery, or does it just symbolise the Southern States of the US, which included slavery

or

Of course today, it has been highjacked by Klansmen and alt-rights.

That "hijack" took place a long, long time ago, and I'm sorry if you think I am being patronising, but even posing the question is ahistorical, and obscuring the actual nature of the Confederacy is a  tactic that has been used by Lost Causers for the past century. My hackles rise when I see something like that, and, knowing you long enough on this board to know that is not the way you roll, I suggested you do some reading. Fair enough, I would have thought.

Finally, to descendants of former slaves, the confederate battle flag symbolises slavery. I would have thought in the context of manners, empathy and where they intersect with PC, that is all that matters.

You're missing the Context.  The question is what do the people who fly it think it represents? Or what *did* they think it represented when they first decided to fly it. I think you need to take a breath and read what I am saying.

And as for my second emboldened comment, again, I am talking about in context. You seem to have somehow missed the next thing I wrote,

"You might argue it has always been thus, and you'd be right. However in more recent times, this has come much more front and centre in the public consciousness"

Again, read in context. We are not discussing the Civil War. We are discussing why people from Cork would fly that flag, and whether asking them to stop is PC or not.

sid waddell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 500
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #70 on: Today at 12:30:22 PM »
It really is pli-ical crectniss gone maaaad that we don't see this sort of thing around Dublin anymore.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


visitors can't see pics , please register or login


visitors can't see pics , please register or login

AZOffaly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22954
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #71 on: Today at 12:32:40 PM »
In Delhi, those things are all over the place.

easytiger95

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #72 on: Today at 12:34:41 PM »
The context of your first quote is this -

But does the confederate flag symbolise slavery, or does it just symbolise the Southern States of the US, which included slavery. I'm not sure the Stars and Bars are a racist symbol in and of themselves, but obviously the rebels that flew it wanted to hold onto their secessionary status, and their slaves. Would the single star of the 'Bonnie Blue Flag' be deemed racist if it was flown?

The flag was of an Army fighting to uphold a racist system. It is a racist symbol, was then and will be in the future with the redoubled efforts of neo Nazis and Klansmen. Nowhere in that post are you questioning what Cork people think of it - you're questioning the inherent meaning of the symbol, which is what I was responding to.

As for the second quote, you make a statement and then immediately disown it - there is a big difference between "today it has been hijacked by KKK" and then saying "of course it was ever thus". I'm sorry, but that is confusing. My point is that the Confederate Flag was carried at the head of Klan rallies in New York and Washington in the mid 20s, were shown in "Birth of a Nation", and were always associated with the ideology of racism. If this is only now becoming more front and centre, then I would refer you to my earlier posts, where I said that ignorance is not an excuse, and, even if it was, now there is no excuse for that ignorance, in the case of Cork fans. As said by me, and by other posters on the Cork flags thread, if we should all "get over it" and "have a sense of humour", then I would suggest they bring a swastika to the next game, and see just how difficult it is to divest a symbol of its inherent meaning.


AZOffaly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22954
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #73 on: Today at 12:39:52 PM »
Fair point. That was badly worded. I meant that someone who flew the Stars and Bars would not necessarily see them as racist, because they'd have a different understanding (in the 80s) of what that meant.

As for confusing you with my second point, again, may be poorly worded, but essentially I am saying that while they were used at Klan rallies and had other racist overtones, always, in the context of a Cork Langer flying it, all they knew in the 80s was the Dukes of Hazzard and Country and Western Music with Pickup Trucks and Good Ol' Boys, and a romantic view of the overmatched Rebels punching the big guy in the nose.


easytiger95

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
    • View Profile
Re: The "PC Brigade" brigade
« Reply #74 on: Today at 01:54:58 PM »
Yep, agree with that, I just think that time is gone where people can claim ignorance of the overtones.

And. to be fair, maybe I do need a sense of humour transplant. Sorry if you thought I was getting at you, it was badly phrased on my part as well.