Castlederg

[glens abu]

Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.

The IRA was never, ever part of the solution to the problems you outline in that post. You do not tackle injustice by inflicting injustice on others, and the IRA did precisely that.

Ah but they also administered justice to others

[HiMucker]

Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.

The IRA was never, ever part of the solution to the problems you outline in that post. You do not tackle injustice by inflicting injustice on others, and the IRA did precisely that.

gone name me one country in the world were oppression and injustice by a foreign occupying force was not met with violence?

[haveaharp]

Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.

The IRA was never, ever part of the solution to the problems you outline in that post. You do not tackle injustice by inflicting injustice on others, and the IRA did precisely that.

gone name me one country in the world were oppression and injustice by a foreign occupying force was not met with violence?

Good question that.

[Applesisapples]

It is true that the British to a point accepted a level of violence in the north, but credit successive Irish Governments who applied some pressure, not least because at anytime the violence could have spilled South as it did with the Dublin Monaghan bombings. The key however was the "mainland activities". But also bear in mind that talks were going on from the early '70's. Who knows what outcome the Brits would have wished for. Personally I think they were torn between wanting shot of the PUL's as we know them now and guilt for creating the problem in the first place.

[Applesisapples]

Shock horror Myles has a different view that is pro British...

[Myles Na G.]

Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.

The IRA was never, ever part of the solution to the problems you outline in that post. You do not tackle injustice by inflicting injustice on others, and the IRA did precisely that.

gone name me one country in the world were oppression and injustice by a foreign occupying force was not met with violence?

The 'oppression and injustice' in the north was perpetrated by northern unionists, not by a foreign occupying force. From partition to the start of the troubles in 1969, the worst the British could be accused of was turning a blind eye to the political slum that was the NI state. And if you want to talk about oppression and injustice, why not consider the plight of the African-Americans. Slaves until recent times, routinely jailed, lynched, discriminated against until well into the 20th century. They fought and won their civil rights despite being murdered and beaten off the streets. And they never resorted to so called armed struggle, or used the injustices they suffered as an excuse to murder and maim others.

[Myles Na G.]

Shock horror Myles has a different view that is pro British...

Shock horror, it's not being pro British to think that SF and the IRA are a bunch of wankers. Most of the island believes that to be the case.

[HiMucker]

Myles your first point there is absolutely laughable.
As to your second point about the African Americans struggle, never here anything about Malcolm X, Black Panthers, the LA riots or thousands of other examples.  So your below point is balls
"And they never resorted to so called armed struggle, or used the injustices they suffered as an excuse to murder and maim others"

[Maguire01]

"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.

Ok then, give us your spin.

They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.

Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.

At that stage what was the alternative? Roll over and live as second class citizens? Be completely dominated by Unionism? No harm but you obviously have no clue whatsoever what went on up here in the 70s and 80s.

As someone else has posted, the vast majority opted for an alternative: not killing (or supporting the killing of) people.

And i've a fair idea of what happened in NI in the 70s and 80s. I didn't experience the 70s first hand (there are probably plenty on either side of this debate who didn't) and I didn't live on the Falls Road or the Bogside, but I have lived in NI since the 80s. Although even if I hadn't, the fact remains that the majority of the 'CNR community' did not support the IRA and its campaign of violence.

[Maguire01]

"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.

Ok then, give us your spin.

They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.

Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.

Or maybe nobody might have been killed at all. Who knows. Such is the reality of war. And sure if it wasn't for the realities of war, Monaghan would be one of 32 counties under British rule right now. But sure at last absolutely no innocents were killed in that war eh?

I thought you didn't do whataboutery?

[Nally Stand]

"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.

Ok then, give us your spin.

They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.

Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.

Or maybe nobody might have been killed at all. Who knows. Such is the reality of war. And sure if it wasn't for the realities of war, Monaghan would be one of 32 counties under British rule right now. But sure at last absolutely no innocents were killed in that war eh?

I thought you didn't do whataboutery?

Whatboutery? You were using a hypothetical outcome of an attack which never took place. My reply was far removed from whatboutery!!! Way to avoid my point though

[trileacman]

Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.

Alot of that post misses the point though. How can SF complain (rightfully) about the OO parading all year long and then go marching in reply? How is that not hypocritical?

[Tony Baloney]

Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.

Alot of that post misses the point though. How can SF complain (rightfully) about the OO parading all year long and then go marching in reply? How is that not hypocritical?

Was thinking the same myself. 'The prods got it all their own way for years now we can have our own parades and play dress up'. Makes no sense to me.

[EC Unique]

"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.

Ok then, give us your spin.

They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.

Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.

At that stage what was the alternative? Roll over and live as second class citizens? Be completely dominated by Unionism? No harm but you obviously have no clue whatsoever what went on up here in the 70s and 80s.

As someone else has posted, the vast majority opted for an alternative: not killing (or supporting the killing of) people.

And i've a fair idea of what happened in NI in the 70s and 80s. I didn't experience the 70s first hand (there are probably plenty on either side of this debate who didn't) and I didn't live on the Falls Road or the Bogside, but I have lived in NI since the 80s. Although even if I hadn't, the fact remains that the majority of the 'CNR community' did not support the IRA and its campaign of violence.

There were a lot more nationalists supported the armed struggle than you think. A lot supported it but would never admit it. A lot supported it but were afraid to show support.

[Maguire01]

"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.

Ok then, give us your spin.

They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.

Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.

Or maybe nobody might have been killed at all. Who knows. Such is the reality of war. And sure if it wasn't for the realities of war, Monaghan would be one of 32 counties under British rule right now. But sure at last absolutely no innocents were killed in that war eh?

I thought you didn't do whataboutery?

Whatboutery? You were using a hypothetical outcome of an attack which never took place. My reply was far removed from whatboutery!!! Way to avoid my point though

I was referring to you accusing me of whataboutery on the 'being good at politics' discussion. You used it to avoid my question.

But to address your point, maybe people will view the PIRA differently in a few generations, when the victims that weren't killed are no longer alive, and when it isn't as raw. Although the failure of the campaign to deliver its 'Brits out' objective may well mean that it's always considered different to the violence at the start of the last century.