Religion.

[pintsofguinness]

If I'm wrong and God actually is so arrogant and self obsessed that he sends good people to hell or purgatory (or whatever it is this week) because they haven't been eating the alter rails (and this I assume includes babies, children, people who have never heard tell of him etc) then I would rather not have anything to do with him. If that means burning in hell for eternity or serving time in purgatory then so be it.


btw, do you think you have to be Catholic to get in to heaven?

[mylestheslasher]

If I'm wrong and God actually is so arrogant and self obsessed that he sends good people to hell or purgatory (or whatever it is this week) because they haven't been eating the alter rails (and this I assume includes babies, children, people who have never heard tell of him etc) then I would rather not have anything to do with him. If that means burning in hell for eternity or serving time in purgatory then so be it.


btw, do you think you have to be Catholic to get in to heaven?

Wouldn't like likes of Moses be down in hell then too? I'm not sure if the catholic church would be in agreement with Icemans opinions on this.

[Maguire01]

I laugh often at non-believers who feel the need to challenge Christians beliefs.  You're really only trying to convince yourself you're right because deep down that little question is niggling at your heart - what if you got it wrong?

What a load of crap. By that logic, Nationalists only challenge the Unionist beliefs because deep down that little idea that unionism might be right is niggling at them.

Religious opinion/beliefs should be challenged every bit as much as any other opinion.

Maguire thats the thing - Faith is not based on Logic - if it was people like you would have no problem understanding it.
Therefore you can't apply your "logic" and compare it to other ways of thinking.  Also your comparison is very naive  - Nationalists will not be spending eternity in a very hot place if they got it wrong.

My response was in relation to your assertion that non-believers have this niggling doubt. There's no basis for such an assumption.

[Zapatista]

If I'm wrong and God actually is so arrogant and self obsessed that he sends good people to hell or purgatory (or whatever it is this week) because they haven't been eating the alter rails (and this I assume includes babies, children, people who have never heard tell of him etc) then I would rather not have anything to do with him. If that means burning in hell for eternity or serving time in purgatory then so be it.


btw, do you think you have to be Catholic to get in to heaven?

Wouldn't like likes of Moses be down in hell then too? I'm not sure if the catholic church would be in agreement with Icemans opinions on this.

Are those who went before Jesus are awaiting judgment day?

What religon was Moses, Jewish

[The Iceman]

If I'm wrong and God actually is so arrogant and self obsessed that he sends good people to hell or purgatory (or whatever it is this week) because they haven't been eating the alter rails (and this I assume includes babies, children, people who have never heard tell of him etc) then I would rather not have anything to do with him. If that means burning in hell for eternity or serving time in purgatory then so be it.


btw, do you think you have to be Catholic to get in to heaven?

Wouldn't like likes of Moses be down in hell then too? I'm not sure if the catholic church would be in agreement with Icemans opinions on this.

The biggest failure of the Catholic church in Ireland was not to educate its flock. properly  Old Testament guys were not in Heaven before Jesus rose from the dead- any priest worth his salt will tell you this. For example hen Lazarus died he went to Abraham's side and the rich man went to hell. In hell the rich man looked up and could see Lazarus being comforted at Abraham'ss side. But neither could cross over to Heaven.  They were in a place known to the Jews as "paradise".  For the Jews death consisted of two realms - one was hell or torment the other was paradise.  People could commune with each other or at least see each other but not cross over.  This is still taught in Judaism today.  Neither was Heaven.

Jesus is often referred to as the first born from the dead.  This would imply and (in accordance with Church teaching) that all people pre-Jesus were not in Heaven apart from Elijah and Moses who we know were raised instantly to God's side (if we read the bible and were taught properly at school).
It also says that after He was crucified, Jesus went to the dead and raised Abraham and a whole host of people to Heaven.

I hope this answers your question.

[Maguire01]

I agree there will be lots of "holy" people in Hell but there will also be a lot of good people in hell too.  Being a good person doesn't warrant heaven.  If it did Jesus never would have walked on the Earth, Jesus never would have died for our sins and the Church would never have been instituted.

Why will there be good people in hell?
And is there only heaven or hell?

There were "good" people around for centuries before Jesus was around.  If good people made it to heaven then why did God sacrafice His only Son for us? If good people made it to heaven then why did Jesus die for us?  Good people (who don't have an intimate relationship with Jesus) don't get to heaven. The only way to the Father is through the Son.  Therefore based on that - there will be plenty of good people in hell or purgatory to answer your other question.

There will also be plenty of "holy" people in hell or purgatory.  Holy people as in those who bite the altar rails and don't live out the Gospel everyday. Those who preach on street corners and would steal the eye from your head.  These hypocrites I believe will all be in hell or purgatory.

*shakes head*

Pints you might disagree and that's cool.

My point earlier still stands - If I got it wrong no harm done.  If you have it wrong..............

What if you're worshipping the wrong God? You could be more fooked than me!

[Zapatista]

The biggest failure of the Catholic church in Ireland was not to educate its flock. properly  Old Testament guys were not in Heaven before Jesus rose from the dead- any priest worth his salt will tell you this. For example hen Lazarus died he went to Abraham's side and the rich man went to hell. In hell the rich man looked up and could see Lazarus being comforted at Abraham'ss side. But neither could cross over to Heaven.  They were in a place known to the Jews as "paradise".  For the Jews death consisted of two realms - one was hell or torment the other was paradise.  People could commune with each other or at least see each other but not cross over.  This is still taught in Judaism today.  Neither was Heaven.

Jesus is often referred to as the first born from the dead.  This would imply and (in accordance with Church teaching) that all people pre-Jesus were not in Heaven apart from Elijah and Moses who we know were raised instantly to God's side (if we read the bible and were taught properly at school).
It also says that after He was crucified, Jesus went to the dead and raised Abraham and a whole host of people to Heaven.

I hope this answers your question.

So which came first then






The Chicken or the Egg?

[Maguire01]

For example hen Lazarus died he went to Abraham's side and the rich man went to hell. In hell the rich man looked up and could see Lazarus being comforted at Abraham'ss side.

Seriously, the more you hear, the more ridiculous some of this is. On what basis is this known? Did the rich man send back messages?

[Zapatista]

What if you're worshipping the wrong God? You could be more fooked than me!

There's only ine God. If there were more we'd have to have a democracy which wouldn't suit anyone.

[Zapatista]

For example hen Lazarus died he went to Abraham's side and the rich man went to hell. In hell the rich man looked up and could see Lazarus being comforted at Abraham'ss side.

Seriously, the more you hear, the more ridiculous some of this is. On what basis is this known? Did the rich man send back messages?

The bible is full of these type of events. It's not rediculous to believers. The entire basis of the CC is faith.

[pintsofguinness]

I don't buy this stuff about having to eat alter rails (I do believe in some sort of God though) - Iceman can't you see that the very people preaching to you that if you don't go to mass etc you won't go to heaven are the same people who have a vested interest in you being a member of the church and handing over cash or whatever. Are you not suspicious about that?
I mean the catholic church (or any church) aren't going to say - "well actually you don't need to go to mass, just live a good life and heaven will be there for you".

Btw God is suppose to be forgiving isn't he so if we die and find out we're going to hell because we didn't go to mass can we say sorry and get in?

So Jesus basically opened up heaven for us (but he was Jewish wasn't he?), is that what's meant when people say he died for our sins?

I always got good grades in RE at school and most of this is news to me. 

[mylestheslasher]

If I'm wrong and God actually is so arrogant and self obsessed that he sends good people to hell or purgatory (or whatever it is this week) because they haven't been eating the alter rails (and this I assume includes babies, children, people who have never heard tell of him etc) then I would rather not have anything to do with him. If that means burning in hell for eternity or serving time in purgatory then so be it.


btw, do you think you have to be Catholic to get in to heaven?

Wouldn't like likes of Moses be down in hell then too? I'm not sure if the catholic church would be in agreement with Icemans opinions on this.

The biggest failure of the Catholic church in Ireland was not to educate its flock. properly  Old Testament guys were not in Heaven before Jesus rose from the dead- any priest worth his salt will tell you this. For example hen Lazarus died he went to Abraham's side and the rich man went to hell. In hell the rich man looked up and could see Lazarus being comforted at Abraham'ss side. But neither could cross over to Heaven.  They were in a place known to the Jews as "paradise".  For the Jews death consisted of two realms - one was hell or torment the other was paradise.  People could commune with each other or at least see each other but not cross over.  This is still taught in Judaism today.  Neither was Heaven.

Jesus is often referred to as the first born from the dead.  This would imply and (in accordance with Church teaching) that all people pre-Jesus were not in Heaven apart from Elijah and Moses who we know were raised instantly to God's side (if we read the bible and were taught properly at school).
It also says that after He was crucified, Jesus went to the dead and raised Abraham and a whole host of people to Heaven.

I hope this answers your question.

I suppose it does explain what you believe even if I think it is nonsense.

[pintsofguinness]

another thing...considering the nonsense that's in the old testament, it may not be the best source to rely on. 

[The Iceman]

I don't buy this stuff about having to eat alter rails (I do believe in some sort of God though) - Iceman can't you see that the very people preaching to you that if you don't go to mass etc you won't go to heaven are the same people who have a vested interest in you being a member of the church and handing over cash or whatever. Are you not suspicious about that?
I mean the catholic church (or any church) aren't going to say - "well actually you don't need to go to mass, just live a good life and heaven will be there for you".

Btw God is suppose to be forgiving isn't he so if we die and find out we're going to hell because we didn't go to mass can we say sorry and get in?

So Jesus basically opened up heaven for us (but he was Jewish wasn't he?), is that what's meant when people say he died for our sins?

I always got good grades in RE at school and most of this is news to me.

Pints mate I don't go to Mass because I'm told to.  I go to Mass to Worship God, say my prayers, meet Jesus in the Eucharist and be in communion with the Church. 
I know the church has F'ed up a lot of things but I still go to Mass - not because they tell me to - because I want to.

Old Testament is hard to figure out but the majority of what I relayed to you earlier about Paradise and Death is all in the New Testament.

I don't know why we are not taught these things properly in school (another F up from the Church) but I'm glad I took the time to explore it all, read the Bible and understand it where possible and I'm glad I have been able to grow closer to God as a result.

Peace

[Maguire01]

I don't know why we are not taught these things properly in school (another F up from the Church) but I'm glad I took the time to explore it all, read the Bible and understand it where possible and I'm glad I have been able to grow closer to God as a result.

Do you think that if you were handed the Bible, Koran and any other religious books, and given a few lectures on each religion, that you would choose Christianity, and indeed then choose Catholicism?
Or do you think that it's more a case that you're Catholic due to having been raised a Catholic?

As for being taught in school, unless they're teaching the details of all religions and scriptures as a history lesson, learning about other cultures, or literatary criticism, I don't think school is the place. That's what Church is for, if people so choose it. I wouldn't be keen on your idea that it's a 'F up' on the Church's part that they didn't impart even more of this wisdom on school children.