Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

[Myles Na G.]

In my view, 1916 set us on the road to a divided country. Remember, unionists weren't seeking partition at this point. Carson, in fact, never wanted it at all. By forcing the issue and bringing things to a head, militant republicans polarised opinion in the country and forced unionists into a corner.

What do you think the Ulster Covenant was about? I'm seriously intrigued at how you can come to the conclusion that it was the Rising that "forced unionists into a corner" given the existence of the Covenant.

In the Covenant, unionists pledged themselves to do whatever it took to resist Home Rule. Their opposition hadn't disappeared 4 years later, so why did the men of 1916 think it an opportune time to force the case for Irish independence? If northern unionists were against home rule, was it not obvious that they would be even more against the idea of independence? The nationalist struggle for independence that took place post-1916 forced unionists to confront their worst fears and forced them into a decision. They had to choose whether they would roll over and accept their place in an independent Ireland, or whether they would resist it, as they had always said they would. They chose the latter and partition was the result.

[deiseach]

In my view, 1916 set us on the road to a divided country. Remember, unionists weren't seeking partition at this point. Carson, in fact, never wanted it at all. By forcing the issue and bringing things to a head, militant republicans polarised opinion in the country and forced unionists into a corner.

What do you think the Ulster Covenant was about? I'm seriously intrigued at how you can come to the conclusion that it was the Rising that "forced unionists into a corner" given the existence of the Covenant.

In the Covenant, unionists pledged themselves to do whatever it took to resist Home Rule. Their opposition hadn't disappeared 4 years later, so why did the men of 1916 think it an opportune time to force the case for Irish independence? If northern unionists were against home rule, was it not obvious that they would be even more against the idea of independence? The nationalist struggle for independence that took place post-1916 forced unionists to confront their worst fears and forced them into a decision. They had to choose whether they would roll over and accept their place in an independent Ireland, or whether they would resist it, as they had always said they would. They chose the latter and partition was the result.

The Ulster Covenant demonstrated that the Protestants of Ulster would not accept any kind of goverment in Dublin. That was when the partition of Ireland took place. There was little concept of separatism within Ireland before then - you are quite right that Carson opposed partition because he didn't think the sovereignty of Ireland should be sullied by asking the people of Ireland for their opinion on the matter - and this was entrenched in British politics when the leader of the Conservatives, Andrew Bonar Law, said in 1912 that he could  "imagine no length of resistance to which Ulster can go in which I should not be prepared to support them" (and yes, I have referred to it before and will keep doing so while you continue to airbrush it out of history). In short, the 'decision' you claim was made post-1916 was clearly made pre-1916 with the Ulster Covenant.

[Myles Na G.]

In my view, 1916 set us on the road to a divided country. Remember, unionists weren't seeking partition at this point. Carson, in fact, never wanted it at all. By forcing the issue and bringing things to a head, militant republicans polarised opinion in the country and forced unionists into a corner.

What do you think the Ulster Covenant was about? I'm seriously intrigued at how you can come to the conclusion that it was the Rising that "forced unionists into a corner" given the existence of the Covenant.

In the Covenant, unionists pledged themselves to do whatever it took to resist Home Rule. Their opposition hadn't disappeared 4 years later, so why did the men of 1916 think it an opportune time to force the case for Irish independence? If northern unionists were against home rule, was it not obvious that they would be even more against the idea of independence? The nationalist struggle for independence that took place post-1916 forced unionists to confront their worst fears and forced them into a decision. They had to choose whether they would roll over and accept their place in an independent Ireland, or whether they would resist it, as they had always said they would. They chose the latter and partition was the result.

The Ulster Covenant demonstrated that the Protestants of Ulster would not accept any kind of goverment in Dublin. That was when the partition of Ireland took place. There was little concept of separatism within Ireland before then - you are quite right that Carson opposed partition because he didn't think the sovereignty of Ireland should be sullied by asking the people of Ireland for their opinion on the matter - and this was entrenched in British politics when the leader of the Conservatives, Andrew Bonar Law, said in 1912 that he could  "imagine no length of resistance to which Ulster can go in which I should not be prepared to support them" (and yes, I have referred to it before and will keep doing so while you continue to airbrush it out of history). In short, the 'decision' you claim was made post-1916 was clearly made pre-1916 with the Ulster Covenant.

Unionists stated categorically through the Covenant that they would not countenance a Dublin government. They were not demanding that the country be divided into two states at that stage. That came later, after the 1916 uprising had kicked things off. Had the rising not taken place, the country would've continued to exist as a single entity under British rule. That may not have been ideal, it may not have been what the majority of people on the island wanted, but it would've been a better situation, imo, than what we have now. I think we're further away from an independent 32 county Ireland now than we were in 1916.

[armaghniac]

Unionists stated categorically through the Covenant that they would not countenance a Dublin government.

Note that they did this before any negotiations whatsoever and when leading nationalists were people like Redmond who had never shown any indication to disadvantage the unionist community. Then, as now, they didn't see themselves as deserving of equal treatment but as a ubervolk who should be advantaged. How little changes.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

In my view, 1916 set us on the road to a divided country. Remember, unionists weren't seeking partition at this point. Carson, in fact, never wanted it at all. By forcing the issue and bringing things to a head, militant republicans polarised opinion in the country and forced unionists into a corner.

That is your view.  However on 8th of July 1914 Carson voted for a government amendment to exclude Ulster for 6 years from the Bill and a further amendment to remove the time qualification and the definition of which counties would be exempt.

So the rising may have harden attitudes but you are just factually wrong to say partition wasn't on the cards before then as it was already written into law.

/Jim.

[dec]

In my view, 1916 set us on the road to a divided country. Remember, unionists weren't seeking partition at this point. Carson, in fact, never wanted it at all. By forcing the issue and bringing things to a head, militant republicans polarised opinion in the country and forced unionists into a corner.

What do you think the Ulster Covenant was about? I'm seriously intrigued at how you can come to the conclusion that it was the Rising that "forced unionists into a corner" given the existence of the Covenant.

In the Covenant, unionists pledged themselves to do whatever it took to resist Home Rule. Their opposition hadn't disappeared 4 years later, so why did the men of 1916 think it an opportune time to force the case for Irish independence? If northern unionists were against home rule, was it not obvious that they would be even more against the idea of independence? The nationalist struggle for independence that took place post-1916 forced unionists to confront their worst fears and forced them into a decision. They had to choose whether they would roll over and accept their place in an independent Ireland, or whether they would resist it, as they had always said they would. They chose the latter and partition was the result.

The Ulster Covenant demonstrated that the Protestants of Ulster would not accept any kind of goverment in Dublin. That was when the partition of Ireland took place. There was little concept of separatism within Ireland before then - you are quite right that Carson opposed partition because he didn't think the sovereignty of Ireland should be sullied by asking the people of Ireland for their opinion on the matter - and this was entrenched in British politics when the leader of the Conservatives, Andrew Bonar Law, said in 1912 that he could  "imagine no length of resistance to which Ulster can go in which I should not be prepared to support them" (and yes, I have referred to it before and will keep doing so while you continue to airbrush it out of history). In short, the 'decision' you claim was made post-1916 was clearly made pre-1916 with the Ulster Covenant.

Unionists stated categorically through the Covenant that they would not countenance a Dublin government. They were not demanding that the country be divided into two states at that stage. That came later, after the 1916 uprising had kicked things off. Had the rising not taken place, the country would've continued to exist as a single entity under British rule. That may not have been ideal, it may not have been what the majority of people on the island wanted, but it would've been a better situation, imo, than what we have now. I think we're further away from an independent 32 county Ireland now than we were in 1916.

The exclusion of Ulster, or parts of Ulster, from Home Rule was being discussed in 1912 when the Third Home Rule Bill was first being debated in Parliament.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1912/apr/11/authority-of-imperial-parliament

[muppet]

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/richard-haass-presenting-updated-proposals-to-northern-parties-today-1.1631730

As the talks continue at the Stormont Hotel in east Belfast, the US diplomat said he was still hopeful a deal could be achieved by this week, notwithstanding the mixed reaction to his first proposals paper presented on Monday.

There is potential for movement on the past and parades but the flags issue is proving difficult. In particular the possibility of the Irish Tricolour flying over buildings such as Stormont during official visits by the Irish President or Taoiseach has aroused unionist ire.

[lawnseed]

Dandy dave left gregory in no doubt about where he stood yesterday in parliment.

He defended haas and basically told campbell he wanted compromise on both sides and quickley.

I dont like dandy daves party or his policies but he takes no shit from the loyalists or anyone from this place so im gonna give him a cautious thumbs up.

His I dont give a fuk attitude toward nordieland could be just right at this time

[Tubberman]

Dandy dave left gregory in no doubt about where he stood yesterday in parliment.

He defended haas and basically told campbell he wanted compromise on both sides and quickley.

I dont like dandy daves party or his policies but he takes no shit from the loyalists or anyone from this place so im gonna give him a cautious thumbs up.

His I dont give a fuk attitude toward nordieland could be just right at this time

Sure Jesus, we've had that attitude to ye for decades down here and we get nothing but abuse for it

[lawnseed]

Dandy dave left gregory in no doubt about where he stood yesterday in parliment.

He defended haas and basically told campbell he wanted compromise on both sides and quickley.

I dont like dandy daves party or his policies but he takes no shit from the loyalists or anyone from this place so im gonna give him a cautious thumbs up.

His I dont give a fuk attitude toward nordieland could be just right at this time

Sure Jesus, we've had that attitude to ye for decades down here and we get nothing but abuse for it

Yeah thats right. But yee dont send us any cheques..

[Tubberman]

Dandy dave left gregory in no doubt about where he stood yesterday in parliment.

He defended haas and basically told campbell he wanted compromise on both sides and quickley.

I dont like dandy daves party or his policies but he takes no shit from the loyalists or anyone from this place so im gonna give him a cautious thumbs up.

His I dont give a fuk attitude toward nordieland could be just right at this time

Sure Jesus, we've had that attitude to ye for decades down here and we get nothing but abuse for it

Yeah thats right. But yee dont send us any cheques..

He's bought your allegiance.... sad day.

[lynchbhoy]

yeah its funny to see that the british no longer give a fcuk about the six counties.
prev they used to as it was a rump of votes that could be obtained for whoever shouted the loudest about maintaining the union.

the brits dont want anything to do with the 6 counties, they want rid of it, its idiots , its financial burden on them and the jobs they could bring back over and make themselves look good

the brits have much the same attitude to us in the south too- its just they dont have to fund us.

[Minder]

yeah its funny to see that the british no longer give a fcuk about the six counties.
prev they used to as it was a rump of votes that could be obtained for whoever shouted the loudest about maintaining the union.

the brits dont want anything to do with the 6 counties, they want rid of it, its idiots , its financial burden on them and the jobs they could bring back over and make themselves look good

the brits have much the same attitude to us in the south too- its just they dont have to fund us.

Why are they increasing the block grant then ?

[lynchbhoy]

yeah its funny to see that the british no longer give a fcuk about the six counties.
prev they used to as it was a rump of votes that could be obtained for whoever shouted the loudest about maintaining the union.

the brits dont want anything to do with the 6 counties, they want rid of it, its idiots , its financial burden on them and the jobs they could bring back over and make themselves look good

the brits have much the same attitude to us in the south too- its just they dont have to fund us.

Why are they increasing the block grant then ?

obv because they really really want to keep the 6 counties!!   

[armaghniac]

Why are they increasing the block grant then ?

Because they want to bribe Scotland and need the same formula for the sick counties?