The Many Faces of US Politics...

[seafoid]

This is very interesting. The tax cuts are dogshit for the GOP


.https://youtu.be/MKLaqtraOBk

[whitey]

Seemed fine to me.  Just because he wants to see evidence  of election tampering (beyond a few fake facebook profiles) doesn't mean he believes Putin is a saint who would never do anything untoward. 

The main evidence for tampering seems to be from statements made by US secret services who have not exactly got a track record that would make one believe x on the basis of their statement that x.

Russia has not been accused of "tampering" in the US election. The Republicans have enough people who are intent on denying the vote to ethnic minorities and others likely to vote Democrat, as well as systematically gerrymandering congressional districts to their advantage, not to need any help in that regard.

What they are plainly guilty of is in interfering in not just the US election, but other elections in the West as well as the Brexit referendum by way of mass internet-driven propaganda and "fake news".

Russian troll accounts are even populating Irish internet forums - they're all over politics.ie, for instance.

And of course they are cultivating far-right politicians all over Europe and in the US, most obviously, and with astounding success, Trump.

They have a clear divide and conquer strategy as regards the West and are attempting to undermine liberal democracy at every turn. It's currently working very well.

Anybody who cannot see this has a serious set of blinkers on.

So for arguments sake lets say youre an FG supporter and a you see a FB post or tweet posted by an Russian bot saying Enda Kenny is a cvnt.....would you switch your vote to FF based on those posts? 

Would you stay at home and not vote at all, because you are now disheartened by all the negativity?

Wheteher we like it or not, voters have been forced to sift through spin, waffle and misinformation for about 20 years....much of it emenating from the lame stream media. These Russian are just a continuation of a challenge that was already facing voters.....who and what do I believe?

To date I dont know if anyone has been able to prove that one single solitary voter had their mind changed by a tweet or a facebook post they saw

It would probably be a Roscommon bot slandering Enda.
Psy ops work, WhiTey.  It's the basis of the ad industry.
The US has 2 media systems and after 30 years of big fed alternative reality red US was ripe for some Russian messing.

I think the most interesting part will be the backlash against the GOP when voters figure out Trump is a fraud.

It all depends on who the Democrats put up as a candidate......as is evidenced by the recent special election in PA they seem to be learning their lesson.

Fringe issues appeal to fringe voters and might sit well in San Francisco or the wealhy suburbs of Boston, but wont win you a presidential election in the swing states.

Jobs, healthcare, taxes and the economy the the deciding issues for most voters I know

Trump is doing very little for jobs and even less for healthcare. He is rewarding the donors.

Tell that to my self employed clients who were paying $35K a year for healthcare under Obamacare. (Up from about $20K)

[seafoid]

Seemed fine to me.  Just because he wants to see evidence  of election tampering (beyond a few fake facebook profiles) doesn't mean he believes Putin is a saint who would never do anything untoward. 

The main evidence for tampering seems to be from statements made by US secret services who have not exactly got a track record that would make one believe x on the basis of their statement that x.

Russia has not been accused of "tampering" in the US election. The Republicans have enough people who are intent on denying the vote to ethnic minorities and others likely to vote Democrat, as well as systematically gerrymandering congressional districts to their advantage, not to need any help in that regard.

What they are plainly guilty of is in interfering in not just the US election, but other elections in the West as well as the Brexit referendum by way of mass internet-driven propaganda and "fake news".

Russian troll accounts are even populating Irish internet forums - they're all over politics.ie, for instance.

And of course they are cultivating far-right politicians all over Europe and in the US, most obviously, and with astounding success, Trump.

They have a clear divide and conquer strategy as regards the West and are attempting to undermine liberal democracy at every turn. It's currently working very well.

Anybody who cannot see this has a serious set of blinkers on.

So for arguments sake lets say youre an FG supporter and a you see a FB post or tweet posted by an Russian bot saying Enda Kenny is a cvnt.....would you switch your vote to FF based on those posts? 

Would you stay at home and not vote at all, because you are now disheartened by all the negativity?

Wheteher we like it or not, voters have been forced to sift through spin, waffle and misinformation for about 20 years....much of it emenating from the lame stream media. These Russian are just a continuation of a challenge that was already facing voters.....who and what do I believe?

To date I dont know if anyone has been able to prove that one single solitary voter had their mind changed by a tweet or a facebook post they saw

It would probably be a Roscommon bot slandering Enda.
Psy ops work, WhiTey.  It's the basis of the ad industry.
The US has 2 media systems and after 30 years of big fed alternative reality red US was ripe for some Russian messing.

I think the most interesting part will be the backlash against the GOP when voters figure out Trump is a fraud.

It all depends on who the Democrats put up as a candidate......as is evidenced by the recent special election in PA they seem to be learning their lesson.

Fringe issues appeal to fringe voters and might sit well in San Francisco or the wealhy suburbs of Boston, but wont win you a presidential election in the swing states.

Jobs, healthcare, taxes and the economy the the deciding issues for most voters I know

Trump is doing very little for jobs and even less for healthcare. He is rewarding the donors.

Tell that to my self employed clients who were paying $35K a year for healthcare under Obamacare. (Up from about $20K)

The plural of anecdote is not data
13m people will lose healthcare.
The system sucks and needs to be rebooted.

[sid waddell]

I do apologise Sid, I misread what you typed. Cheerfully withdrawn.

So what if I didn't give an opinion? I said I was interested in these issues. I read from western media and non-western media. I'm not stupid enough to think that either are telling the whole truth. So if I admit that I can't possibly know the truth, how can I have an opinion? Would you like me to guess?

You say it's a fact that "Russia interfered in the US election". Who are Russia? The Kremlin or group of lads in St. Petersburg? What does interfere mean? How many facebook ads does it take to constitute interfering? If I meet ten US citizens and tell them that Hilary is the devil, am I interfering?

And then more "facts" with the vaguest of terms. People try to influence other people if it benefits themselves. It's hardly news. And it's beyond hilarious to hear the U.S. crying about it. I mean irony just doesn't cover it.

"Russia" means people acting on behalf of and with the support of the Russian government.

Russia has organised troll farms where people get paid to write propaganda and spread fake news. They use massive numbers of bots to publish automated propaganda. Significant amounts of Russian government money are allocated to funding this. That is not opinion, that is fact.

You say that "it is beyond hilarious to hear the US crying about it". That is called whataboutery.

But currently, the US government and the ruling party there are crying very little about it, and we can all take a pretty educated guess as to why that is.

You should take your whataboutery to somebody who supports or has supported US foreign policy interventions since World War II or their propaganda efforts to orchestrate regime changes in other countries, because I pretty much always don't.

By using whataboutery, which is always the standard response of those who seek to defend Russia, and by downplaying Russian interference and internet-driven mass propaganda, you actually legitimise what the US has done in that regard since World War II. I'm not sure you've quite thought that angle through.

Again with the word "fact". Repeatedly saying it doesn't make it any more of a fact. How do you know it's a fact? Any of your facts?

And poor old whataboutery gets a blackening. I mentioned that in passing as it is hilarious to hear the US crying about such "facts" but forget I said it as it is indeed irrelevant to this conversation. I guess that means that it's not "always the standard response" anymore, although I wasn't actually defending Russia......but anyway.

Next, my downplaying of the level of Russian interference that we've seen, and presumably the other stuff that you know about, legitimises the US doing something similar? On that basis can we downplay anything anyone does or what level does it need to be reported before we can dismiss it,downplay it or doubt it?

I sort of see where you're going with some of your opinions but I also see that you've made up your mind on a lot of things with little reason given, at least as far as I know.

If you think Russia interfering in the US and other elections and using internet driven mass propaganda and fake news for its own ends is not a fact, there's little point in continuing the conversation, because you're refusing to accept reality.

Whataboutery was mentioned because that's what you engaged in, and what every defence of Russia I've read since the Salisbury attack has resorted to.

I make up my mind based on facts and on reason.

I don't make up my mind that "ah, Russia are grand, sure they're standing up to the big bad west", or something like that, which many people blindly do.

Russia is a rotten, corrupt state run by a rotten, corrupt, murdering, totalitarian thug who is out to undermine western liberal democracy, the sort of liberal democracy, that for all its faults, and there are many, is infinitely superior to the system Russia has, and which I value extremely highly, thank you.

The rest of the world should be extremely wary of Putin and Russia.

[Esmarelda]

Sid, one thing I agree with you on, but for different reasons to yours, is that there's no point in us continuing our conversation. You're repeating yourself and for me to reply would mean I would have to do the same. So I think we'll leave it there.

[Gmac]

Seemed fine to me.  Just because he wants to see evidence  of election tampering (beyond a few fake facebook profiles) doesn't mean he believes Putin is a saint who would never do anything untoward. 

The main evidence for tampering seems to be from statements made by US secret services who have not exactly got a track record that would make one believe x on the basis of their statement that x.

Russia has not been accused of "tampering" in the US election. The Republicans have enough people who are intent on denying the vote to ethnic minorities and others likely to vote Democrat, as well as systematically gerrymandering congressional districts to their advantage, not to need any help in that regard.

What they are plainly guilty of is in interfering in not just the US election, but other elections in the West as well as the Brexit referendum by way of mass internet-driven propaganda and "fake news".

Russian troll accounts are even populating Irish internet forums - they're all over politics.ie, for instance.

And of course they are cultivating far-right politicians all over Europe and in the US, most obviously, and with astounding success, Trump.

They have a clear divide and conquer strategy as regards the West and are attempting to undermine liberal democracy at every turn. It's currently working very well.

Anybody who cannot see this has a serious set of blinkers on.

So for arguments sake lets say youre an FG supporter and a you see a FB post or tweet posted by an Russian bot saying Enda Kenny is a cvnt.....would you switch your vote to FF based on those posts? 

Would you stay at home and not vote at all, because you are now disheartened by all the negativity?

Wheteher we like it or not, voters have been forced to sift through spin, waffle and misinformation for about 20 years....much of it emenating from the lame stream media. These Russian are just a continuation of a challenge that was already facing voters.....who and what do I believe?

To date I dont know if anyone has been able to prove that one single solitary voter had their mind changed by a tweet or a facebook post they saw

It would probably be a Roscommon bot slandering Enda.
Psy ops work, WhiTey.  It's the basis of the ad industry.
The US has 2 media systems and after 30 years of big fed alternative reality red US was ripe for some Russian messing.

I think the most interesting part will be the backlash against the GOP when voters figure out Trump is a fraud.

It all depends on who the Democrats put up as a candidate......as is evidenced by the recent special election in PA they seem to be learning their lesson.

Fringe issues appeal to fringe voters and might sit well in San Francisco or the wealhy suburbs of Boston, but wont win you a presidential election in the swing states.

Jobs, healthcare, taxes and the economy the the deciding issues for most voters I know

Trump is doing very little for jobs and even less for healthcare. He is rewarding the donors.

Tell that to my self employed clients who were paying $35K a year for healthcare under Obamacare. (Up from about $20K)

The plural of anecdote is not data
13m people will lose healthcare.
The system sucks and needs to be rebooted.

the bottom line with healthcare in the USA is its a huge business that is probably one of the biggest lobbyist groups out there and most Amercians don't want to pay more taxes to pay for other people's healthcare when their own plans are costing them a fortune ,

[seafoid]

Seemed fine to me.  Just because he wants to see evidence  of election tampering (beyond a few fake facebook profiles) doesn't mean he believes Putin is a saint who would never do anything untoward. 

The main evidence for tampering seems to be from statements made by US secret services who have not exactly got a track record that would make one believe x on the basis of their statement that x.

Russia has not been accused of "tampering" in the US election. The Republicans have enough people who are intent on denying the vote to ethnic minorities and others likely to vote Democrat, as well as systematically gerrymandering congressional districts to their advantage, not to need any help in that regard.

What they are plainly guilty of is in interfering in not just the US election, but other elections in the West as well as the Brexit referendum by way of mass internet-driven propaganda and "fake news".

Russian troll accounts are even populating Irish internet forums - they're all over politics.ie, for instance.

And of course they are cultivating far-right politicians all over Europe and in the US, most obviously, and with astounding success, Trump.

They have a clear divide and conquer strategy as regards the West and are attempting to undermine liberal democracy at every turn. It's currently working very well.

Anybody who cannot see this has a serious set of blinkers on.

So for arguments sake lets say youre an FG supporter and a you see a FB post or tweet posted by an Russian bot saying Enda Kenny is a cvnt.....would you switch your vote to FF based on those posts? 

Would you stay at home and not vote at all, because you are now disheartened by all the negativity?

Wheteher we like it or not, voters have been forced to sift through spin, waffle and misinformation for about 20 years....much of it emenating from the lame stream media. These Russian are just a continuation of a challenge that was already facing voters.....who and what do I believe?

To date I dont know if anyone has been able to prove that one single solitary voter had their mind changed by a tweet or a facebook post they saw

It would probably be a Roscommon bot slandering Enda.
Psy ops work, WhiTey.  It's the basis of the ad industry.
The US has 2 media systems and after 30 years of big fed alternative reality red US was ripe for some Russian messing.

I think the most interesting part will be the backlash against the GOP when voters figure out Trump is a fraud.

It all depends on who the Democrats put up as a candidate......as is evidenced by the recent special election in PA they seem to be learning their lesson.

Fringe issues appeal to fringe voters and might sit well in San Francisco or the wealhy suburbs of Boston, but wont win you a presidential election in the swing states.

Jobs, healthcare, taxes and the economy the the deciding issues for most voters I know

Trump is doing very little for jobs and even less for healthcare. He is rewarding the donors.

Tell that to my self employed clients who were paying $35K a year for healthcare under Obamacare. (Up from about $20K)

The plural of anecdote is not data
13m people will lose healthcare.
The system sucks and needs to be rebooted.

the bottom line with healthcare in the USA is its a huge business that is probably one of the biggest lobbyist groups out there and most Amercians don't want to pay more taxes to pay for other people's healthcare when their own plans are costing them a fortune ,

Healthcare is one fifth of the US economy. It is not sustainable

[whitey]

Seemed fine to me.  Just because he wants to see evidence  of election tampering (beyond a few fake facebook profiles) doesn't mean he believes Putin is a saint who would never do anything untoward. 

The main evidence for tampering seems to be from statements made by US secret services who have not exactly got a track record that would make one believe x on the basis of their statement that x.

Russia has not been accused of "tampering" in the US election. The Republicans have enough people who are intent on denying the vote to ethnic minorities and others likely to vote Democrat, as well as systematically gerrymandering congressional districts to their advantage, not to need any help in that regard.

What they are plainly guilty of is in interfering in not just the US election, but other elections in the West as well as the Brexit referendum by way of mass internet-driven propaganda and "fake news".

Russian troll accounts are even populating Irish internet forums - they're all over politics.ie, for instance.

And of course they are cultivating far-right politicians all over Europe and in the US, most obviously, and with astounding success, Trump.

They have a clear divide and conquer strategy as regards the West and are attempting to undermine liberal democracy at every turn. It's currently working very well.

Anybody who cannot see this has a serious set of blinkers on.

So for arguments sake lets say youre an FG supporter and a you see a FB post or tweet posted by an Russian bot saying Enda Kenny is a cvnt.....would you switch your vote to FF based on those posts? 

Would you stay at home and not vote at all, because you are now disheartened by all the negativity?

Wheteher we like it or not, voters have been forced to sift through spin, waffle and misinformation for about 20 years....much of it emenating from the lame stream media. These Russian are just a continuation of a challenge that was already facing voters.....who and what do I believe?

To date I dont know if anyone has been able to prove that one single solitary voter had their mind changed by a tweet or a facebook post they saw

It would probably be a Roscommon bot slandering Enda.
Psy ops work, WhiTey.  It's the basis of the ad industry.
The US has 2 media systems and after 30 years of big fed alternative reality red US was ripe for some Russian messing.

I think the most interesting part will be the backlash against the GOP when voters figure out Trump is a fraud.

It all depends on who the Democrats put up as a candidate......as is evidenced by the recent special election in PA they seem to be learning their lesson.

Fringe issues appeal to fringe voters and might sit well in San Francisco or the wealhy suburbs of Boston, but wont win you a presidential election in the swing states.

Jobs, healthcare, taxes and the economy the the deciding issues for most voters I know

Trump is doing very little for jobs and even less for healthcare. He is rewarding the donors.

Tell that to my self employed clients who were paying $35K a year for healthcare under Obamacare. (Up from about $20K)

The plural of anecdote is not data
13m people will lose healthcare.
The system sucks and needs to be rebooted.

Gainfully employed people who already had healthcare before Obamacare and who are already paying the bulk of all taxes are the ones who got fvcked.

It sucks that people don't (or didn't) have healthcare but why should they have to take on the burden

I used to live in CT and many of these guys/gals are also paying $7-10k in property tax and $1k in excise tax on each of their cars.

Call it an anecdote if you want, but it's real

[seafoid]

Seemed fine to me.  Just because he wants to see evidence  of election tampering (beyond a few fake facebook profiles) doesn't mean he believes Putin is a saint who would never do anything untoward. 

The main evidence for tampering seems to be from statements made by US secret services who have not exactly got a track record that would make one believe x on the basis of their statement that x.

Russia has not been accused of "tampering" in the US election. The Republicans have enough people who are intent on denying the vote to ethnic minorities and others likely to vote Democrat, as well as systematically gerrymandering congressional districts to their advantage, not to need any help in that regard.

What they are plainly guilty of is in interfering in not just the US election, but other elections in the West as well as the Brexit referendum by way of mass internet-driven propaganda and "fake news".

Russian troll accounts are even populating Irish internet forums - they're all over politics.ie, for instance.

And of course they are cultivating far-right politicians all over Europe and in the US, most obviously, and with astounding success, Trump.

They have a clear divide and conquer strategy as regards the West and are attempting to undermine liberal democracy at every turn. It's currently working very well.

Anybody who cannot see this has a serious set of blinkers on.

So for arguments sake lets say youre an FG supporter and a you see a FB post or tweet posted by an Russian bot saying Enda Kenny is a cvnt.....would you switch your vote to FF based on those posts? 

Would you stay at home and not vote at all, because you are now disheartened by all the negativity?

Wheteher we like it or not, voters have been forced to sift through spin, waffle and misinformation for about 20 years....much of it emenating from the lame stream media. These Russian are just a continuation of a challenge that was already facing voters.....who and what do I believe?

To date I dont know if anyone has been able to prove that one single solitary voter had their mind changed by a tweet or a facebook post they saw

It would probably be a Roscommon bot slandering Enda.
Psy ops work, WhiTey.  It's the basis of the ad industry.
The US has 2 media systems and after 30 years of big fed alternative reality red US was ripe for some Russian messing.

I think the most interesting part will be the backlash against the GOP when voters figure out Trump is a fraud.

It all depends on who the Democrats put up as a candidate......as is evidenced by the recent special election in PA they seem to be learning their lesson.

Fringe issues appeal to fringe voters and might sit well in San Francisco or the wealhy suburbs of Boston, but wont win you a presidential election in the swing states.

Jobs, healthcare, taxes and the economy the the deciding issues for most voters I know

Trump is doing very little for jobs and even less for healthcare. He is rewarding the donors.

Tell that to my self employed clients who were paying $35K a year for healthcare under Obamacare. (Up from about $20K)

The plural of anecdote is not data
13m people will lose healthcare.
The system sucks and needs to be rebooted.

Gainfully employed people who already had healthcare before Obamacare and who are already paying the bulk of all taxes are the ones who got fvcked.

It sucks that people don't (or didn't) have healthcare but why should they have to take on the burden

I used to live in CT and many of these guys/gals are also paying $7-10k in property tax and $1k in excise tax on each of their cars.

Call it an anecdote if you want, but it's real

healthcare costs are rising faster than wages
13m people losing healthcare is bad for the economy.
Trump won't address this. It is a system problem.

[Eamonnca1]

I used to live in CT and many of these guys/gals are also paying $7-10k in property tax and $1k in excise tax on each of their cars.

Call it an anecdote if you want, but it's real

It's an anecdote.

[seafoid]

This is a great line

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/15/trump-presidency-unravelling-administration-enemies

The venality is so baroque, the vulgarity so ostentatious, the inconsistencies so stark, the incompetence so epic and the lies so brazen, it leaves you speechless. His vanity is without guile and the scandals that embroil him without end. 

[Asal Mor]

One could say we're in  no position to be mocking the leader of another country given the one we've elected spends a fortune on PR,  then brags about corruption in the most casual way imaginable in a speech that's being televised internationally. The phrase "incompetence so epic" could be used to describe Leo's various ministerial roles too.

[Keyser soze]

I used to live in CT and many of these guys/gals are also paying $7-10k in property tax and $1k in excise tax on each of their cars.

Call it an anecdote if you want, but it's real

It's an anecdote.

Its an anecdote complaining about people having to pay tax on their second third or whatever car, when the debate surrounding healthcare is about people dying in the streets as they dont have health insurance. Never the twain shall meet methinks.

[whitey]

I used to live in CT and many of these guys/gals are also paying $7-10k in property tax and $1k in excise tax on each of their cars.

Call it an anecdote if you want, but it's real

It's an anecdote.

Its an anecdote complaining about people having to pay tax on their second third or whatever car, when the debate surrounding healthcare is about people dying in the streets as they dont have health insurance. Never the twain shall meet methinks.

Nice job cherry picking.......I just checked my old house in CT....which I sold for $290K in 2008......property tax is now $8300 per year.

My buddy currently has 4 kids in college so hes also forking out over $100K per year in tuition

He has 5 cars on the road....no public transport where he lives...2 of his girls commute to college and have modest vehicles.....I think hes all in for about $5K in auto excise tax

His healthcare premiums went for $20K to $35K, but youre right, hes just a selfish pr1ck for resenting close to a 50% increase in his healthcare premiums.

Call it an anecdote if you want, but this is the reality facing many people.....it's a big enough problem that even Bill Clinton addressed it during the campaign...."Obamacare, you know it's the craziest thing we people humping it 60 you s a week.....their premiums have doubled and their coverage cut in half"

[Gmac]

I used to live in CT and many of these guys/gals are also paying $7-10k in property tax and $1k in excise tax on each of their cars.

Call it an anecdote if you want, but it's real

It's an anecdote.

Its an anecdote complaining about people having to pay tax on their second third or whatever car, when the debate surrounding healthcare is about people dying in the streets as they dont have health insurance. Never the twain shall meet methinks.

dying in the streets where?