https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66216005
Came across this article, even when I went to J'town several years ago I could not fathom the logic in why people were doing degrees not linked to any real jobs.
It would seem people still have not caught on.
Quote from: LC on July 17, 2023, 10:02:03 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66216005
Came across this article, even when I went to J'town several years ago I could not fathom the logic in why people were doing degrees not linked to any real jobs.
It would seem people still have not caught on.
You are beginning to see a drift back towards apprenticeships. A half decent construction worker is now earning 4 figure sum a week, contrast that against the alternative of going to university for 3 years and coming out with £30k plus of debt for less pay. Some people haven't yet figured it out, a lot of it is down to simple go with the flow and inertia.
Short answer for a lot (most?) graduates is "No"
Studied Computer Science in UUJ from 2003-2007, thankfully fees were still covered then
Gained a good foundation knowledge to take into the workplace, most of which was gained in placement year to be honest
Great, great times had in the holylands, no doubt about it, but I think we look back on it with rose tinted glasses & talk about the same few great nights
Is it worth the level of debt that students are expected to get into now to complete their degrees? Doubtful. There are other ways to gain those skills & recognised accreditations ( in IT anyway)
Have a niece waiting on A level results, I think her preference is do an apprenticeship with deloitte/pwc.
Sounds sensible to me - still get the living away experience & the professional qualification, with the added benefit of professional experience & a salary
Quote from: WeeDonns on July 17, 2023, 10:30:14 AM
Short answer for a lot (most?) graduates is "No"
Studied Computer Science in UUJ from 2003-2007, thankfully fees were still covered then
Gained a good foundation knowledge to take into the workplace, most of which was gained in placement year to be honest
Great, great times had in the holylands, no doubt about it, but I think we look back on it with rose tinted glasses & talk about the same few great nights
Is it worth the level of debt that students are expected to get into now to complete their degrees? Doubtful. There are other ways to gain those skills & recognised accreditations ( in IT anyway)
Have a niece waiting on A level results, I think her preference is do an apprenticeship with deloitte/pwc.
Sounds sensible to me - still get the living away experience & the professional qualification, with the added benefit of professional experience & a salary
In agreement with this - Done a computer science degree in Liverpool, I was first year of the £9k fee's looking back probably would have been a better option to do the apprenticeship route. Did learn some good skills with Java/SQL but lectures weren't up to much just powerpoints which you could read off the internet and I don't use much of what was taught in the course.
In one of the American banks atm doing IT App Support and have a right few on our floor doing the apprenticeship. Wages may be low to start but once your apprenticeship is over you soon go up the payscale very quickly. Also not having to pay £200 in student loan repayments each month
Financially it does not stack up.
With having a bit of support with grants back in the day I graduated with £5k of student loans and my starting salary was £15k in my first job.
Graduates now coming out with I imagine loans of £25k - £30k and starting on a salary of £30 - £35k if they are lucky.
It's still worth it if you study something like medicine.
Not sure about the rest.
Quote from: LC on July 17, 2023, 12:24:46 PM
Financially it does not stack up.
With having a bit of support with grants back in the day I graduated with £5k of student loans and my starting salary was £15k in my first job.
Graduates now coming out with I imagine loans of £25k - £30k and starting on a salary of £30 - £35k if they are lucky.
Starting salary's far less than £30k.. Out of Uni into Tax/Accountancy/IT about 5 years ago was £21-24k.. Tax/Accountancy in the low side because company would pay for your exams.
I would absolutely say university is worth it, if only to develop critical thinking and analytical skills, the ability to look at an issue from all angles, something very badly lacking among a significant portion of the general population.
It's only a few years out of your life at a very young age. You can pursue the apprenticeship afterwards if that's the road you want to go down. Marriage and kids and so on is increasingly being delayed until you hit your thirties these days anyway.
It depends.
Ask any Doctor, Solicitor, Pharmacist, Engineer or someone who did a vocational type degree and the answer will be a definite "Yes". These people make great money and will have a job for life because of the fact there are only so many people in the country trained in their field and it takes 5 years or more to get there.
However, there are an awful lot of spoof degrees though that really are not worth the money and would be classed as bad investments. I know someone who did a degree in History and had just 8hours a week in 1st year. He works for the civil service. Could have had a 4 year head start if he'd went into it at 18.
Apprenticeships are good if you are willing to put the work in. The area where I am located is crying out for apprentices and tradesmen of every description. They could work 7 days a week if they wanted and are making good money. Ive heard a good joiner can expect 200-300 a day. Brickies the same. If you are brave and hardworking enough you can start you own business and then you're off to the races, without a University degree.
Edit - someone else pointed out the fact you gain a broader perspective on life going to Uni. This is very true. You will meet many people from different backgrounds and I feel it opens more doors to travel, which is always good.
Quote from: J70 on July 17, 2023, 12:38:09 PM
I would absolutely say university is worth it, if only to develop critical thinking and analytical skills, the ability to look at an issue from all angles, something very badly lacking among a significant portion of the general population.
It's only a few years out of your life at a very young age. You can pursue the apprenticeship afterwards if that's the road you want to go down. Marriage and kids and so on is increasingly being delayed until you hit your thirties these days anyway.
Not sure about where you went to college but when I was in Belfast there was very little interest in developing critical thinking and analytical skills. 9 hour per week contact time with courses fosters time in the bar not time engaged in critical thinking!
Quote from: screenexile on July 17, 2023, 12:43:01 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 17, 2023, 12:38:09 PM
I would absolutely say university is worth it, if only to develop critical thinking and analytical skills, the ability to look at an issue from all angles, something very badly lacking among a significant portion of the general population.
It's only a few years out of your life at a very young age. You can pursue the apprenticeship afterwards if that's the road you want to go down. Marriage and kids and so on is increasingly being delayed until you hit your thirties these days anyway.
Not sure about where you went to college but when I was in Belfast there was very little interest in developing critical thinking and analytical skills. 9 hour per week contact time with courses fosters time in the bar not time engaged in critical thinking!
+1
F@*k all about critical thinking and analytical skills more just about regurgetation......however plenty of analysing done in the mall in J'town back in the day.
Quote from: screenexile on July 17, 2023, 12:43:01 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 17, 2023, 12:38:09 PM
I would absolutely say university is worth it, if only to develop critical thinking and analytical skills, the ability to look at an issue from all angles, something very badly lacking among a significant portion of the general population.
It's only a few years out of your life at a very young age. You can pursue the apprenticeship afterwards if that's the road you want to go down. Marriage and kids and so on is increasingly being delayed until you hit your thirties these days anyway.
Not sure about where you went to college but when I was in Belfast there was very little interest in developing critical thinking and analytical skills. 9 hour per week contact time with courses fosters time in the bar not time engaged in critical thinking!
I guess it's what you make of it, like anything, same as an apprenticeship!
Any degree program worth it's salt should be making you spend plenty of time in the library and, for some, the field. Personally, when I'm hiring, I wouldn't spend too much time on someone who just scraped a pass, all else being equal.
Which is not to say I didn't work on many's a hangover in the areas around Dublin 4.
Some people get what they need from a college education others drift through it and end up in a public service type job and that's ok too. I'm not sure employers are overly concerned about degrees unless its in the field of employment that they are applying for. Personally if I'm employing someone its a work ethic and a willingness to learn and get on with staff that I'd put up there as being important
My daughter just finished a degree at Queens, hand on heart she should have went for an apprenticeship role rather than a degree in Criminology, she's no interest in it at all now and out of sheer boredom just about past, that year at Queens there was no lectures due to covid and the following year there was numerous strikes preventing classes not being taken. I firmly believe those students should get a refund, but that's another gripe.
Other daughter is away in Liverpool and flat out partying, so she's enjoying that side of things ;D
Schools are obsessed with it, which is a big problem. They like having the stats. My school it wasn't an option to even considering leaving at 16 and doing a trade. Probably why I'd say at least 1/3 of us struggled with uni and changed course or dropped out. There's a huge void of people my age doing trades
You need a balance between apprenticeships and university and tech colleges IMO
For people suited to university education, it is certainly worth it. However, that does not imply that everyone is suited to university education. Unchallenging courses that just allow people hang around for 3 or 4 years are not necessarily a good use of public funds.
Quote from: armaghniac on July 17, 2023, 02:41:47 PM
For people suited to university education, it is certainly worth it. However, that does not imply that everyone is suited to university education. Unchallenging courses that just allow people hang around for 3 or 4 years are not necessarily a good use of public funds.
What public funds, the students are paying for it through the nose and getting a pretty poor service for it from what I can see.
Quote from: NAG1 on July 17, 2023, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 17, 2023, 02:41:47 PM
For people suited to university education, it is certainly worth it. However, that does not imply that everyone is suited to university education. Unchallenging courses that just allow people hang around for 3 or 4 years are not necessarily a good use of public funds.
What public funds, the students are paying for it through the nose and getting a pretty poor service for it from what I can see.
I believe University places are also funded by Stormont ?
Quote from: screenexile on July 17, 2023, 12:43:01 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 17, 2023, 12:38:09 PM
I would absolutely say university is worth it, if only to develop critical thinking and analytical skills, the ability to look at an issue from all angles, something very badly lacking among a significant portion of the general population.
It's only a few years out of your life at a very young age. You can pursue the apprenticeship afterwards if that's the road you want to go down. Marriage and kids and so on is increasingly being delayed until you hit your thirties these days anyway.
Not sure about where you went to college but when I was in Belfast there was very little interest in developing critical thinking and analytical skills. 9 hour per week contact time with courses fosters time in the bar not time engaged in critical thinking!
Groupthinking is far more popular
Quote from: seafoid on July 17, 2023, 02:31:52 PM
You need a balance between apprenticeships and university and tech colleges IMO
I think the German system is more balanced.
https://vocationaleducation.weebly.com/structure-of-german-education.html#:~:text=Schooling%20in%20Germany%20is%20free,at%20age%20ten%20to%20sixteen.
Also whether we like to admit it or not the public still has a snobbish opinion when it comes to a University education here.
Having done a uni course that results in an actual job at the end of it, I'm still think it's mad what you actually get for your money. I had maybe three days of lectures a week and one or two lab based things on the other days. The lectures were written years ago and the lecture read them off the screen, if you didn't go you didn't really miss anything. Research is king in university and it's often what the lecturer cares about, not really about the students who pay to go there.
I can stomach it because I ended up with a good job out of it, but it's staggering that other people doing random degrees were paying the same money and coming out with nothing lined up.
When I was in sixth form at school queens we're doing the round of the local schools promoting a criminology degree, whereby it was marketed like a CSI job and of course everyone was interested. Until someone had the wit to ask were there many jobs?
None in the north anyway, maybe one or two in England.
My brothers wife is from China and paid 17k a year I believe to go to queens for a business degree. It's absolutely wild
Quote from: NAG1 on July 17, 2023, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 17, 2023, 02:41:47 PM
For people suited to university education, it is certainly worth it. However, that does not imply that everyone is suited to university education. Unchallenging courses that just allow people hang around for 3 or 4 years are not necessarily a good use of public funds.
What public funds, the students are paying for it through the nose and getting a pretty poor service for it from what I can see.
In the UK, most students get loans and many do not pay these back, which is what is bugging Sunak.
The competition for apprenticeships (HLA's in NI) is getting ferocious. I've one at Uni and 2 younger ones who are flat out with the HLA chat. Interview skills are going to be so much more important for the HLA generation.
Caveat: I was the last generation to get student grants, and there was no concept of having to pay for tuition. So my financial decision was a lot different from today's students.
My job didn't exist when I was in Uni. It's not always about picking up specific technical skills, especially in fields like computing that change so fast that the skills you pick up in uni are obsolete by the time you graduate. It's more about learning how to learn and how to keep your skills up to date, plus the teamworking and communication abilities that are hugely important and are what really make you employable.
And there is technical know-how that can be the foundation of future skills - for example I don't think it's terribly important which programming language you learn, because the underlying concepts are the same across a lot of languages and the syntax is quite similar. Programming languages are more like programming dialects IMHO. Once you learn one, it's easy to pick up another.
A good foundation in maths can teach you how to solve problems in a way that no other subject can. Statistics is the foundation of big data analytics, AI, and a lot of the technologies that are quite hot at the minute.
In the end I didn't really use my degree for its intended purpose, but I think this is common and it doesn't really matter. When I look at the Linkedin profiles of a lot of senior management I sometimes see people with arts and humanities degrees.
One thing I find a bit concerning is the idea that you're a loser if you don't go to uni and if you end up doing blue-collar work. I find that an insulting attitude given my working class roots. We used to have teachers saying that we're supposed to go out and get "good jobs" and not go outside to work as builders or labourers. My parents worked hard all their lives and earned a good enough living to support us. They did important work that needed to get done.
I once knew someone who sat in the truck with his son for a day watching mechanics at work across the street. This was supposed to scare him into going to uni and getting a good job so he didn't end up like those plebs working at cars. I'll bet the same fella would also be the first to complain if there was a long wait to get his car fixed.
In the US we don't value blue collar work half enough. Politicians brag about "how far they've come" when the son of a fruit picker gets elected, but I'd prefer it if we'd value the fruit picker for the work they do, not a baseline that makes ourselves look better.
My wife once had an intern working with her. He was a young cub who said he wanted to go to uni and study mechanical engineering, because that's what his school was pushing him to do. She gave him a handful of jobs to do that involved making phone calls and notifying businesses about upcoming construction projects, but he wasn't very good at it. Anything that involved operating a computer, writing anything down, reading anything, or communicating was just beyond him. There was no way he was going to make it at university, but he wanted to go because he wanted to be a mechanic. My wife told him that he doesn't need a degree for that kind of work, he needs an apprenticeship that'd be a lot more use to him and wouldn't saddle him with a load of unpayable debt. (Student debt in the US is vicious, even if you declare bankruptcy it can be hard to get out of paying it.) He was keen to learn to work on cars, or to work with his uncle who builds houses, so a spell in a community college learning a trade would be far better for him. But you try explaining that to his teachers who think a university degree is the only answer.
Higher education isn't for everyone, and not everyone should be in higher education.
Quote from: screenexile on July 17, 2023, 12:43:01 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 17, 2023, 12:38:09 PM
I would absolutely say university is worth it, if only to develop critical thinking and analytical skills, the ability to look at an issue from all angles, something very badly lacking among a significant portion of the general population.
It's only a few years out of your life at a very young age. You can pursue the apprenticeship afterwards if that's the road you want to go down. Marriage and kids and so on is increasingly being delayed until you hit your thirties these days anyway.
Not sure about where you went to college but when I was in Belfast there was very little interest in developing critical thinking and analytical skills. 9 hour per week contact time with courses fosters time in the bar not time engaged in critical thinking!
I went to a local Tech before I went to Uni. There I learned how to BS. They rewarded you for waffling on for six pages where one would do, and they'd punish you for being concise, getting to the point, and answering the question. I learned all sorts of tricks like writing a sentence, and then writing the same thing again using different words, just to pad it out as much as possible.
It must be an NI thing. Half the tutors in there were former civil servants, and they were the ones that wanted the maximum BS. There was a computer technician that used to berate me for "wasting my time" using the computers for stuff that wasn't relevant to my course. I was playing with 3D modelling, something that wasn't relevant to my course but became hugely important in my career later. They could be a bit closed-minded and bureaucratic sometimes.
Quote from: bennydorano on July 17, 2023, 05:20:06 PM
The competition for apprenticeships (HLA's in NI) is getting ferocious. I've one at Uni and 2 younger ones who are flat out with the HLA chat. Interview skills are going to be so much more important for the HLA generation.
Perhaps that is a function of not having enough places or pathways. Interview skills are not necessarily relevant to be a mechanic or plumber, maybe they should give you something to dismantle and reassemble instead.
Quote from: armaghniac on July 17, 2023, 05:37:40 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on July 17, 2023, 05:20:06 PM
The competition for apprenticeships (HLA's in NI) is getting ferocious. I've one at Uni and 2 younger ones who are flat out with the HLA chat. Interview skills are going to be so much more important for the HLA generation.
Perhaps that is a function of not having enough places or pathways. Interview skills are not necessarily relevant to be a mechanic or plumber, maybe they should give you something to dismantle and reassemble instead.
The HLA path is relatively new, it's more along the lines of once traditional Uni route jobs like accountancy/engineering etc.. it's in addition to the traditional apprenticeship route.
Quote from: markl121 on July 17, 2023, 02:30:22 PM
Schools are obsessed with it, which is a big problem. They like having the stats. My school it wasn't an option to even considering leaving at 16 and doing a trade. Probably why I'd say at least 1/3 of us struggled with uni and changed course or dropped out. There's a huge void of people my age doing trades
Yeah I'd agree with that. I'd say most who do a levels have no idea what they want to do so just apply for a few courses , and see which one they can get into. Doing trades is nearly frowned upon at some schools , and leaving after GCSE 's looks a bit like you're some sort of failure .
The whole school curriculum is wrong in my opinion. Too much book work and not enough practical. I have nieces and nephews in secondary school , and so many hours a week they do bricklaying, electrical, joinery, plumbing , and hairdressing. I was glad to hear it. Most leave school and get no experience of things like that.
All well and good getting an apprenticeship in say bricklaying but you will need to put money away for a new hip, knee ops and arthritis in the hands!!
I went to UUJ in the late 90s but dropped out after first year. Two years ago I decided to get the degree as I wanted to get off the site's and into consultancy or a government job(In the South) but no matter how much practical knowledge and experience I had the lack of qualifications stood in my way.
I've now two years completed and going into final year in September as a part time student in the University of Ulster and I'm furious with UU. Paying 6500 a year and you cant get a response to emails, you have to send 3-4 more mails to get an answer. You struggle to get meetings with staff, lectures are cancelled last minute. I know when I was 18 these things wouldn't have bothered me as it would have been the parents money, but at 44 year old spending my own money I'm disgusted with what they're providing.
The past year as a part time student I had 6 hours of lectures on a Monday, the lads on the same course full time only had 3 hrs on a Thursday more than me. Nothing on a Tuesday, Wednesday or Friday so when I look at these young ones renting digs in Belfast for that is crazy. I know if I had young ones I wouldn't be pushing them for a full time degree at uni having a birds eye view of it as a mature student. There's so may better options such as apprenticeships with degrees.
Quote from: pbat on July 17, 2023, 09:23:49 PM
I went to UUJ in the late 90s but dropped out after first year. Two years ago I decided to get the degree as I wanted to get off the site's and into consultancy or a government job(In the South) but no matter how much practical knowledge and experience I had the lack of qualifications stood in my way.
I've now two years completed and going into final year in September as a part time student in the University of Ulster and I'm furious with UU. Paying 6500 a year and you cant get a response to emails, you have to send 3-4 more mails to get an answer. You struggle to get meetings with staff, lectures are cancelled last minute. I know when I was 18 these things wouldn't have bothered me as it would have been the parents money, but at 44 year old spending my own money I'm disgusted with what they're providing.
The past year as a part time student I had 6 hours of lectures on a Monday, the lads on the same course full time only had 3 hrs on a Thursday more than me. Nothing on a Tuesday, Wednesday or Friday so when I look at these young ones renting digs in Belfast for that is crazy. I know if I had young ones I wouldn't be pushing them for a full time degree at uni having a birds eye view of it as a mature student. There's so may better options such as apprenticeships with degrees.
Fair play to you going back to the books at this stage.
I found queens really unimpressive when I was there too. In final year pre Christmas I had 12 meetings setup with my project supervisor. He made one of twelve. They were only interested in their spin off companies. Now this was a while ago as I am exactly pbat's age however nothing I hear these days seems much different.
The drive to get everyone into uni started in the early 90s and I was the first from the family. It was great at the time but then the marketplace became saturated with graduates coming out with poor degrees. The eldest son has just finished first year at uni and dont think was driven too hard. He has a mate doing an apprenticeship through PwC which seems like a good approach. My workplace have a huge HLA drive on because the universities are turning out desperately poor science graduates.
Was chatting to a lady today behind said her granddaughter worked out the period she was there and based on what they paid, they should be getting half their money back.
First year no lectures second year lecturers on strike and final year the first two years seemed that things were rushed to be finished.
My kid was the same, on graduation day they still didn't get their results while doing the whole graduation day! Joke
9 hours a week in UUJ I did. Lecturer reading off PowerPoint , learned nothing, a pile of absolute and utter shite. All the work for exams was done by reading yourself. UUJ was horrible and soulless (especially at night with no car) in that part timers did the course and 2 nights a week we had lectures to like 730pm.....literally half of the 9 week contact time to 730pm, f**king up football etc and part time jobs. The bus out there (2 buses or 2 trains) was horrifically grim. A seminar at say 1030 to 1130am then a lecture from 530 to 730pm...f**k me
Self important Creepy lecturers who'd never worked a day in the actual field talking shite and chasing students, madness, its a racket
Got a job in that area but only because I had the qualification, I knew NOTHING. I had to learn on the job. Good craic drinking in the Holylands but weekend drinking would have done rightly in hindsight, as would a trade but our school was mad for degrees, going into them blind with not a notion
20yrs later just paid off student loan. Wouldn't do it again
Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 08:40:20 AM
Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .
You need the basics, bricklaying isn't just putting one brick on top of another, there are drawings, measurements, costings, dealing with customers, marketing your business, managing projects timing etc.. you also have your accounting to sort out too.
Now if you just want to be a labour for a brickie then you'll not need to have GCSE in math/English
I'd come down on the side of Uni for two reasons:
1. It's potentially a great experience if you live away from home and friends to be made from much further afield than your wee school bubble.
2. I have a hunch many employers (maybe of a certain generation) are still old school and like to see a degree, whereas they wouldn't be as sure, or maybe even understand, exactly what a HLA or other qualification is.
But I'd agree it's a money racket. Isn't everything.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 18, 2023, 10:02:50 AM
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 08:40:20 AM
Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .
You need the basics, bricklaying isn't just putting one brick on top of another, there are drawings, measurements, costings, dealing with customers, marketing your business, managing projects timing etc.. you also have your accounting to sort out too.
Now if you just want to be a labour for a brickie then you'll not need to have GCSE in math/English
milltown,
i disagree
some of the best brickies from my era hadn`t a CSE or o level
when i was a kid schools taught woodwork, metal work etc and every kid had a chance to go to a training centre to get an apprenticeship
we now have shed loads of kids where this avenue is now closed off and left to rot
my brother is a fabulous eletrician who has no qualificationa and trust me he could buy and sell most of us
Not all that long ago, I'm only talking the 80s and 90s, university wasn't really about what how much you learned or what subjects you took, so much as being able to prove to future employers that when left to your own devices - without the discipline of home, and in the face of various temptations created by living away from home - you were still capable of learning, and of evolving as a person.
But the well-meant but utterly ridiculous notion that everyone should go to uni, coupled with the blurry-lined integration of technical colleges, completely distorted this picture. For inevitably, if everyone wants to go to uni, then everyone has to pay. And once people begin paying out of their own pockets, they want value for money. And universities were never really devised around providing value for money. They were designed as seats of learning for the academically inclined. Not as upmarket skills training centres.
The frankly absurd "one for everyone in the audience" direction undertaken during the 1990s was always going to end up with a derailment somewhere. But it can't even derail yet, for it's now stuck in the economic sewage of a culture of greed in which it has become virtually impossible to both be a public sector worker and enjoy middle class comforts.
When someone decries the poor standards on display at QUB and UU, it's better to take a step back and ask yourself why anyone who is bright and focused would take a career in these institutions.... unless it comes with a promise that they can research and t**ker simultaneously for the private sector.
See the NHS for the exact same problem.
Went to Queens and did an engineering degree that had that wide a scope of topics you didn't know what you were qualified to do at the end of it. One module could be electrical engineering and the next could be thermodynamics. Lecturers only interested in their research students and PhD lads. Came away with a load of debt and a degree I could barely use because I graduated right before the recession and everything tightened up. Couldn't even get a placement year during my degree because most places weren't taking students on. Had a good time from the social side of things but it finished me playing football and to be honest if I could talk to my 16 or 18 year old self, I'd advise going the trade route and then get the qualifications in something you have tried and enjoyed rather than something you took a chance at and got the grades to get into.
Quote from: andoireabu on July 18, 2023, 10:42:44 AM
Went to Queens and did an engineering degree that had that wide a scope of topics you didn't know what you were qualified to do at the end of it. One module could be electrical engineering and the next could be thermodynamics. Lecturers only interested in their research students and PhD lads. Came away with a load of debt and a degree I could barely use because I graduated right before the recession and everything tightened up. Couldn't even get a placement year during my degree because most places weren't taking students on. Had a good time from the social side of things but it finished me playing football and to be honest if I could talk to my 16 or 18 year old self, I'd advise going the trade route and then get the qualifications in something you have tried and enjoyed rather than something you took a chance at and got the grades to get into.
I would imagine this is a story which could be repeated over and over.
The biggest problem here IMO is career advise in schools, what would a teacher know about the world of work in the real sense. How do they know at 16 what to advise when they have no experience of it themselves. Other than directing kids toward more academia.
The whole system needs to be looked at, we need to be looking at which sectors need to be developed where the jobs are going to be in ten years and using industry experts within this.
There will always be those who choose to go down the more 'Arty' degree route and if they want to do so that is more than fine, but they pay for the privilege. Those sectors which need development should be subsidised to encourage recruitment to the courses.
Quote from: andoireabu on July 18, 2023, 10:42:44 AM
Went to Queens and did an engineering degree that had that wide a scope of topics you didn't know what you were qualified to do at the end of it. One module could be electrical engineering and the next could be thermodynamics. Lecturers only interested in their research students and PhD lads. Came away with a load of debt and a degree I could barely use because I graduated right before the recession and everything tightened up. Couldn't even get a placement year during my degree because most places weren't taking students on. Had a good time from the social side of things but it finished me playing football and to be honest if I could talk to my 16 or 18 year old self, I'd advise going the trade route and then get the qualifications in something you have tried and enjoyed rather than something you took a chance at and got the grades to get into.
That's exactly it.
Went to university myself and studied an engineering degree. Wishy washy as f**k. Learnt a lot about everything but nothing about anything in full. Gave a brief understanding of various topics. I had 2 Indian lecturers who the whole class couldn't understand as they had such strong Indian accents. It got the the point we stopped going to the classes because it was a waste of time, we just looked at the powerpoint slides ourselves.
Had great craic drinking 3/4 days during the week with all my mates. Cracking open cans of beer at 10am and things like that. House parties, night clubs, and all that comes with it.
When i finally graduated i had to learn on the job. I would say i used about 5% of the things i learnt at uni in my working career.
Quote from: thewobbler on July 18, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
But the well-meant but utterly ridiculous notion that everyone should go to uni, coupled with the blurry-lined integration of technical colleges, completely distorted this picture. For inevitably, if everyone wants to go to uni, then everyone has to pay. And once people begin paying out of their own pockets, they want value for money. And universities were never really devised around providing value for money. They were designed as seats of learning for the academically inclined. Not as upmarket skills training centres.
That's it exactly, a university is a seat of learning for a student who appreciates the insight into the subject that they obtain there, that is not a person whose first thought is what can I use this for. A person with true insight into the subject may still have to learn on the job, but they will have an increased capacity to do so.
The modern trend has been to let more and more people into university, allowing in people who are less and less interested in what they study there. To pay for all this class sizes have to be increased and lecturers paid less, which of course reduces the experience.
In the 6 counties the policy has been to not provide enough places and to send students to obscure ex polytechs in faded English towns. In the 26 counties, the policy has been to pack them in and this has been achieved by cutting the spending per student. The 26 counties had a reasonable plan with more practical courses in ITs and traditional academic courses in universities, but now they are beginning to lose that distinction and that may not be a good thing.
If you take IT as well and you look at how changeable it is - a degree studying a load of stuff now may be irrelevant in a year or two's time.
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 18, 2023, 11:41:47 AM
If you take IT as well and you look at how changeable it is - a degree studying a load of stuff now may be irrelevant in a year or two's time.
Sorry but the computer science and software engineering fundamentals haven't changed in decades. New technologies and applications of those fundamentals may come (not in a year or 2) and go but it's no different to having to learn or retrain.
Understanding Functional, Object-Oriented and Procedural Programming; testing techniques (don't get me started on Devs not writing tests); software design patterns; algorithm design; networking; OS's, encryption etc... are way more important than being able to cobble together a few applications in whatever javascript framework is flavour of the month.
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 10:26:10 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 18, 2023, 10:02:50 AM
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 08:40:20 AM
Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .
You need the basics, bricklaying isn't just putting one brick on top of another, there are drawings, measurements, costings, dealing with customers, marketing your business, managing projects timing etc.. you also have your accounting to sort out too.
Now if you just want to be a labour for a brickie then you'll not need to have GCSE in math/English
milltown,
i disagree
some of the best brickies from my era hadn`t a CSE or o level
when i was a kid schools taught woodwork, metal work etc and every kid had a chance to go to a training centre to get an apprenticeship
we now have shed loads of kids where this avenue is now closed off and left to rot
my brother is a fabulous eletrician who has no qualificationa and trust me he could buy and sell most of us
There is no other way to get an actual proper apprenticeship with out the basics, if not GCSE's then its essential skills at C grade level. To be a spark or a plummer you needed (back in the day) 2 GCSE's minimum and that is going back 40 years.
I'm a product of getting education via the apprenticeship scheme's I used that to then become a teacher of my trade for many years delivering the theory for that area.
I get that plenty of people (my 2 brothers) left with nowt and got a trade in bricklaying, one left after I got him involved with training young lads at a centre I was at, now he's away completely from that and securing jobs for people with special needs, the other is still bricklaying went to Oz for a good few years and back home, so yes its not a requirement but had my brother not got the basics he'd have not got into Oz at the time as that was what the firm was looking for.
The place were I used to work we had a day a week were school kids came into the training centre and do a starter course in their 5th year, it could be Plumbing, bricklaying engineering joinery and electronics, so some schools those that were more vocational minded would be doing that.
I never pushed my kids into anything, allowed them to make that call, one went to tech doing hospitality and leisure one did criminology (which she hates) and the other doing Law now after changing after 1st year.
I'm totally for practical based learning be that trades or subjects that will lead to a job in that area. Law, Med, accountancy, teaching and so on
Quote from: thebigfella on July 18, 2023, 12:49:50 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 18, 2023, 11:41:47 AM
If you take IT as well and you look at how changeable it is - a degree studying a load of stuff now may be irrelevant in a year or two's time.
Sorry but the computer science and software engineering fundamentals haven't changed in decades. New technologies and applications of those fundamentals may come (not in a year or 2) and go but it's no different to having to learn or retrain.
Understanding Functional, Object-Oriented and Procedural Programming; testing techniques (don't get me started on Devs not writing tests); software design patterns; algorithm design; networking; OS's, encryption etc... are way more important than being able to cobble together a few applications in whatever javascript framework is flavour of the month.
Spot on. Just because you learned to drive in an Austin Allegro does not mean that you cannot drive a Tesla. Understanding that you have to test, the difference between an OS and an application etc is of lasting value, although you might have started programming on PC DOS 3.1 and are now working on Android 13. Modern tools will make it easier and improve productivity, but just as a workman may do more work with battery drill he still has to know what he is trying to do.
Some things have changed since I was at uni and some have stayed the same.
There were/are loads of people who go to uni because they are either too lazy or too handless to go into a trade where hard physical labour is required.
They don't know what to do, so decide to go to uni for 3-4 years to party and study some nothing degree that they have no hope of getting a job from.
Degrees like History, Geography or Women's Studies (that was actually a degree when I was there). They'll finish up working in shops, maybe civil service jobs as they have a generic degree.
There are others who go to uni as the only way to get into the profession they want to work in is a uni degree, doctor, scientist, IT, engineering.
Today though, some of those professions offer apprenticeships and have an end result of a degree and also a job. For me, this is absolutely the best avenue to go down rather than a 3 year uni degree, building up debt, and then start looking for a job. You learn as you earn and finish up with the qualification anyway. You perhaps lose out a little on the social aspect, but I think that has changed since I've been at uni anwyay. When I was there we went out every night, I don't think that happens any more. Perhaps finance is the issue, but attitudes to going out have changed I feel.
Another thing to consider now is the change over the years in how well tradespeople get paid. With no disrespect intended, trades used to be for people who were not academically gifted. But like some people have said on here, some of the smartest most intelligent people I know have trades.
And almost exclusively, the people I know who have done best in life have come from a trade background.
I'll try to encourage my kids to go into work that they think they will enjoy, but also earn enough doing so that they can keep themselves and family.
With the cost of living, difficult to advise what jobs those might be.
One of my daughters (17) works in an outdoor activity centre, zip lines that sort of craic. She loves it and wants to do a degree in instructing outdoor pursuits. I think she's mad.
But we spoken to a few people, and seems like its a bit of a niche market and there can be a lot of money in it. But it's also possible to get the qualifications without going to uni. Places like New Zealand and parts of America, or the Ski resorts in Europe can't get enough of these people so I can see the attraction of living that life.
Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I think it would be great for 10 years until she grows up a bit, or has a family then it just isnt feasible any more. But what do I know....at least in my 17 year olds eyes.
So to answer the question is University worth it, I think it depends on what you want to do as a profession and where you're priorities are in terms of earnings.
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 18, 2023, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 08:40:20 AM
Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .
I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.
See I would totally disagree with this. In my view Maths is the one thing that is needed across the board by everyone, whether household budgeting, understanding a loan, working out angles for a roof, getting ratios right for a cement mix etc.
We had a former client who could barely read or write but was a sharp as a tack on numbers, engineering plans etc. He set up his own manufacturing business when he left school and sold it for over £20m a few years ago
Quote from: tbrick18 on July 18, 2023, 02:15:16 PM
Some things have changed since I was at uni and some have stayed the same.
There were/are loads of people who go to uni because they are either too lazy or too handless to go into a trade where hard physical labour is required.
They don't know what to do, so decide to go to uni for 3-4 years to party and study some nothing degree that they have no hope of getting a job from.
Degrees like History, Geography or Women's Studies (that was actually a degree when I was there). They'll finish up working in shops, maybe civil service jobs as they have a generic degree.
There are others who go to uni as the only way to get into the profession they want to work in is a uni degree, doctor, scientist, IT, engineering.
Today though, some of those professions offer apprenticeships and have an end result of a degree and also a job. For me, this is absolutely the best avenue to go down rather than a 3 year uni degree, building up debt, and then start looking for a job. You learn as you earn and finish up with the qualification anyway. You perhaps lose out a little on the social aspect, but I think that has changed since I've been at uni anwyay. When I was there we went out every night, I don't think that happens any more. Perhaps finance is the issue, but attitudes to going out have changed I feel.
Another thing to consider now is the change over the years in how well tradespeople get paid. With no disrespect intended, trades used to be for people who were not academically gifted. But like some people have said on here, some of the smartest most intelligent people I know have trades.
And almost exclusively, the people I know who have done best in life have come from a trade background.
I'll try to encourage my kids to go into work that they think they will enjoy, but also earn enough doing so that they can keep themselves and family.
With the cost of living, difficult to advise what jobs those might be.
One of my daughters (17) works in an outdoor activity centre, zip lines that sort of craic. She loves it and wants to do a degree in instructing outdoor pursuits. I think she's mad.
But we spoken to a few people, and seems like its a bit of a niche market and there can be a lot of money in it. But it's also possible to get the qualifications without going to uni. Places like New Zealand and parts of America, or the Ski resorts in Europe can't get enough of these people so I can see the attraction of living that life.
Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I think it would be great for 10 years until she grows up a bit, or has a family then it just isnt feasible any more. But what do I know....at least in my 17 year olds eyes.
So to answer the question is University worth it, I think it depends on what you want to do as a profession and where you're priorities are in terms of earnings.
Very narrow point, but in the US at least, a massive part of the issue with resort towns, including ski resorts, is housing. All the housing has been bought up by wealthy out-of-towners and the short term rental market. Places like Jackson Hole and the Colorado towns find it hard to get service workers, whether for restaurants, cleaning or even working the ski lifts, because if you are not lucky enough to find an employer who offers you a bunk as part of your salary, you either live in your car or you try to find a spot an hour or two away. Its even happening in the Catskills in NY, and they're not even on the same planet as somewhere like Aspen or Jackson.
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 18, 2023, 03:02:53 PM
Quote from: TabClear on July 18, 2023, 02:20:47 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 18, 2023, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 08:40:20 AM
Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .
I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.
See I would totally disagree with this. In my view Maths is the one thing that is needed across the board by everyone, whether household budgeting, understanding a loan, working out angles for a roof, getting ratios right for a cement mix etc.
We had a former client who could barely read or write but was a sharp as a tack on numbers, engineering plans etc. He set up his own manufacturing business when he left school and sold it for over £20m a few years ago
A certain level of numeracy is a good tool to have in life.
That is not the same thing as having to pass GCSE Maths to be a brick layer or Art teacher.
agree totally
TBF Home economics, managing finances would be a proper course for kids at school .
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 03:06:33 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 18, 2023, 03:02:53 PM
Quote from: TabClear on July 18, 2023, 02:20:47 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 18, 2023, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 08:40:20 AM
Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .
I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.
See I would totally disagree with this. In my view Maths is the one thing that is needed across the board by everyone, whether household budgeting, understanding a loan, working out angles for a roof, getting ratios right for a cement mix etc.
We had a former client who could barely read or write but was a sharp as a tack on numbers, engineering plans etc. He set up his own manufacturing business when he left school and sold it for over £20m a few years ago
A certain level of numeracy is a good tool to have in life.
That is not the same thing as having to pass GCSE Maths to be a brick layer or Art teacher.
agree totally
TBF Home economics, managing finances would be a proper course for kids at school .
I kinda think Maths is going to play a large part in this ::)
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 18, 2023, 03:14:13 PM
Nobody wants maths banned.
It's just that GCSE Maths shouldn't prohibit people from pursuing career choices that have fcuk all to do with GCSE Maths.
Ah gothcha, might have misunderstood your original post. Agree with that. Maths should be mandatory on the curriculum but a pass in GCSE maths should not be a prerequisite for jobs where it is irrelevant.
Quote from: TabClear on July 18, 2023, 02:20:47 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 18, 2023, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 08:40:20 AM
Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .
I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.
See I would totally disagree with this. In my view Maths is the one thing that is needed across the board by everyone, whether household budgeting, understanding a loan, working out angles for a roof, getting ratios right for a cement mix etc.
We had a former client who could barely read or write but was a sharp as a tack on numbers, engineering plans etc. He set up his own manufacturing business when he left school and sold it for over £20m a few years ago
Most builders use Pythagoras theorem day and daily and don't know it..
Maths is a fundamental to any engineering degree including software and is certainly not a sham degree.
There are lots of people doing degrees in the various humanities and will end up in Job recruitment agencies or the Civil service were your degree is perceived as a level of intelligence even if the subject matter is irrelevant in the final profession.
I've met so many lads (and ladies) with brains to burn, but the social skills of a gnat which really holds them back.
The person who can sell themselves will always get by even if they do bullshit a bit.
Fake it till ya make it!
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 18, 2023, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 08:40:20 AM
Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .
I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.
I'll never forget the amount of time we spent in primary school learning mental arithmetic. "You'll need this if you work in a shop" I was told, by teachers who still had memories of a shop being a small room where someone handed you stuff from the shelves behind them and told you how much you owe after calculating it mentally. I almost never use mental arithmetic these days, for anything.
The reading and writing though, I'm glad we spent a lot of time on that. It seems to have aged well, and I get irritated by the lack of intelligible grammar that I see people broadcasting online. There are times when I get text messages from people that I can barely understand because of the lack of complete sentences.
Quote from: tbrick18 on July 18, 2023, 02:15:16 PM
One of my daughters (17) works in an outdoor activity centre, zip lines that sort of craic. She loves it and wants to do a degree in instructing outdoor pursuits. I think she's mad.
But we spoken to a few people, and seems like its a bit of a niche market and there can be a lot of money in it. But it's also possible to get the qualifications without going to uni. Places like New Zealand and parts of America, or the Ski resorts in Europe can't get enough of these people so I can see the attraction of living that life.
Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I think it would be great for 10 years until she grows up a bit, or has a family then it just isnt feasible any more. But what do I know....at least in my 17 year olds eyes.
I'm in Chamonix at the minute - a 9-month resort, ski and then so many spring/summer/autumn activities, like rafting, hiking, climbing, cycling, mountain biking, parapenting etc. You could definitely have a medium to long term career here or in similar resorts in Europe (or NZ as you said).
I loved that sort of stuff too, did voluntary work in outdoor pursuits centre before A Levels, did summer seasons in Switzerland during uni. I regret not taking time out before my career started to do more. Now I just come here on holidays and plan for retirement here 😁
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 18, 2023, 05:15:45 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 18, 2023, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 08:40:20 AM
Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .
I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.
I'll never forget the amount of time we spent in primary school learning mental arithmetic. "You'll need this if you work in a shop" I was told, by teachers who still had memories of a shop being a small room where someone handed you stuff from the shelves behind them and told you how much you owe after calculating it mentally. I almost never use mental arithmetic these days, for anything.
The reading and writing though, I'm glad we spent a lot of time on that. It seems to have aged well, and I get irritated by the lack of intelligible grammar that I see people broadcasting online. There are times when I get text messages from people that I can barely understand because of the lack of complete sentences.
Sure that happened ::)
When's the last time you calculate time or check your change when paying? You're using the skills and techniques almost every day without realising. It also promotes development of problem solving skills and recall. Such spoofing.
I'd say that those who think there is no need for maths were foremost in voting for Brexit.
Quote from: thebigfella on July 18, 2023, 07:25:38 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 18, 2023, 05:15:45 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 18, 2023, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 08:40:20 AM
Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .
I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.
I'll never forget the amount of time we spent in primary school learning mental arithmetic. "You'll need this if you work in a shop" I was told, by teachers who still had memories of a shop being a small room where someone handed you stuff from the shelves behind them and told you how much you owe after calculating it mentally. I almost never use mental arithmetic these days, for anything.
The reading and writing though, I'm glad we spent a lot of time on that. It seems to have aged well, and I get irritated by the lack of intelligible grammar that I see people broadcasting online. There are times when I get text messages from people that I can barely understand because of the lack of complete sentences.
Sure that happened ::)
When's the last time you calculate time or check your change when paying? You're using the skills and techniques almost every day without realising. It also promotes development of problem solving skills and recall. Such spoofing.
Can't say I've had to calculate times much lately, whatever that means. Checking change when paying? These days I only use cash for buying petrol because the local station offers a discount for it. For everywhere else I tap the card or have automatic payments set up.
The principles of maths are worth understanding. My wife and I frequently go through our finances but we use spreadsheets to assess how we're doing. What I don't do is furiously make calculations in my head like they said I was going to. The computers do the grunt work of crunching the numbers for me.
In my dad's day he would write out delivery dockets and the pen would never stop moving because he was so quick at the calculations. He knew the price of everything, would multiply the price by the quantity on each line, total up the column, calculate the 12.5% discount in one column and the 20% discount in the other columns, subtract the discounts, and total the lot up as quick as lightning. Nowadays I believe delivery men just punch everything into a handheld computer.
I'm not talking about maths, I'm talking about mental arithmetic, the actual crunching of numbers. It has been nowhere near as necessary as our teachers said it was going to be.
Basic Maths and English is a sign of your intelligence. If someone applied for a job with me and their CV was poorly written I'd immediately discard it. We also need basic Maths in our line of work, calculating percentages and costs. Nothing overly taxing but being able to know how to do the sums even if you use a calculator to do it.
Degrees are a mark or level indicator of your ability. That's why people choose to do them even if they don't necessarily use every single module. Some of the shite we were taught in Queen's was frankly ridiculous.
Having said all that I employ people with and without a 3rd level education in the same roles and my best performer is someone who left school after A-Levels.
Quote from: TabClear on July 18, 2023, 02:20:47 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 18, 2023, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 08:40:20 AM
Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .
I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.
See I would totally disagree with this. In my view Maths is the one thing that is needed across the board by everyone, whether household budgeting, understanding a loan, working out angles for a roof, getting ratios right for a cement mix etc.
We had a former client who could barely read or write but was a sharp as a tack on numbers, engineering plans etc. He set up his own manufacturing business when he left school and sold it for over £20m a few years ago
I have to say, I agree with this too.
GCSE maths is 100% a requirement. Sure even a job in tesco's would want gcse maths/english at a minimum.
Yes there will be topics that you never use again for most people, but understanding percentages, fractions etc is important for day-to-day living as much as for any job.
I see Maths GCSE isn't part of Queen's general entry requirements. Dunno if that has always been the case.
I find that within a couple of years of qualifying whether it be completing an apprenticeship or a degree you whether you got a grade from A - E or first to a 2.2. level of your qualification becomes irrelevant. More times than enough I have come across people with high grades on paper but it is clear they are severely lacking in skills such as work ethic, ability to absorb what is going on around them, lack of initiative or ability to think outside the box, manage their time, read people et etc.
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 19, 2023, 05:42:29 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on July 19, 2023, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: TabClear on July 18, 2023, 02:20:47 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 18, 2023, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: naka on July 18, 2023, 08:40:20 AM
Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .
I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.
See I would totally disagree with this. In my view Maths is the one thing that is needed across the board by everyone, whether household budgeting, understanding a loan, working out angles for a roof, getting ratios right for a cement mix etc.
We had a former client who could barely read or write but was a sharp as a tack on numbers, engineering plans etc. He set up his own manufacturing business when he left school and sold it for over £20m a few years ago
I have to say, I agree with this too.
GCSE maths is 100% a requirement. Sure even a job in tesco's would want gcse maths/english at a minimum.
Yes there will be topics that you never use again for most people, but understanding percentages, fractions etc is important for day-to-day living as much as for any job.
The question is why is it a requirement though? Take what you say about Tesco as an example. Walk into your local Tesco and put a GCSE Maths paper in front of every employee over 25. How many would pass it? What good is the certificate saying that they used to know it?
As for the bits of maths you listed, that's stuff you learn in primary school. If that is required for the job, just test them on that.
Sure why not let the proles just leave education after primary school and stop wasting any further education on them?
I enjoyed Uni as it was a break from home life circumstances at the time.
But in terms of setting one up for a job, none of the skills were transferable or what I learned on the job in year 1 anyway.
Tradesmen apprenticeships are a definite alternative. Though not every plumber/ electrician is a millionaire by any means. They all seem to drive good cars though.
There's a painter that does work at my house when we need it, he has a steady flow of customers that he's always working with and he's not hard to pay but great at his job, he has 3 weeks a year that he's off, but plans to retire by the time he's 55. I wish I was retiring in 4 years
I can't believe you don't do your own painting.
Quote from: ONeill on July 19, 2023, 10:19:09 PM
I can't believe you don't do your own painting.
Who likes painting? I'll fix things fit things, minor electrical stuff, but painting feck that! You need patience for that
I always say painting is like refereeing. You take your time to make sure it's the right call, under extreme abuse from others.
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 19, 2023, 10:32:22 PM
Patience? Lucky nobody has dreamed up that you need 8 GCSEs or equivalent, including Music and one of BTEC Sport or GOML French.
I left school with diddly squat at 16, though different times, GCSE's were harder then ;D
O-Levels. Youre fooling noone 😉
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 19, 2023, 10:34:34 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 19, 2023, 10:32:22 PM
Patience? Lucky nobody has dreamed up that you need 8 GCSEs or equivalent, including Music and one of BTEC Sport or GOML French.
I left school with diddly squat at 16, though different times, GCSE's were harder then ;D
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on July 19, 2023, 10:57:31 PM
O-Levels. Youre fooling noone 😉
He's telling the truth this time, we were the first year of it and the teachers hadn't a puff at times about the course work needed....
Ach i know, im not far away from yis meself 😉
Quote from: johnnycool on July 20, 2023, 10:50:52 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 19, 2023, 10:34:34 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on July 19, 2023, 10:32:22 PM
Patience? Lucky nobody has dreamed up that you need 8 GCSEs or equivalent, including Music and one of BTEC Sport or GOML French.
I left school with diddly squat at 16, though different times, GCSE's were harder then ;D
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on July 19, 2023, 10:57:31 PM
O-Levels. Youre fooling noone 😉
He's telling the truth this time, we were the first year of it and the teachers hadn't a puff at times about the course work needed....
That's true, it was very odd and remember at the time the teachers thought they would be generous with the marks and so on!!
In fairness, my school stopped teaching after 5th year, there was no route to go on for A-levels, St Louise's was one option, but from being in an all boys school and heading to an all girls school would have taken some balls lol!