America`s Gun Culture

Started by Wildweasel74, December 14, 2012, 06:00:57 PM

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muppet

"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

MWWSI 2017

J70

Quote from: omaghjoe on December 05, 2015, 04:41:51 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 02:29:38 AM
Quote from: moysider on December 05, 2015, 02:15:42 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 01:58:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

:o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that

Not Arizona, but a similar type of mindset, at least in parts of the state in question.

And yes, I was not comfortable. My, at the time, 3 year old was removed from the situation whenever he went near them.

Seamus

I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.
"I wish I could inspire the same confidence in the truth which is so readily accorded to lies".

J70

Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

whitey

Quote from: muppet on December 06, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

I dont agree with everything she said, but she was debating with someone who would confiscate every gun in the country if she had her way, a view that is just es extreme as hers (given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms)

whitey

Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 04:41:20 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on December 05, 2015, 04:41:51 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 02:29:38 AM
Quote from: moysider on December 05, 2015, 02:15:42 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 01:58:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

:o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that

Not Arizona, but a similar type of mindset, at least in parts of the state in question.

And yes, I was not comfortable. My, at the time, 3 year old was removed from the situation whenever he went near them.

Theres a coffee shop next town over, and a plain clothes cop goes in there.  For some reason he always has his gun on his hip, and I always jump when I see it . I cant imagine being around numerous people at a cook out who were carrying....I think Id leave

muppet

Quote from: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:32:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 06, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

I dont agree with everything she said, but she was debating with someone who would confiscate every gun in the country if she had her way, a view that is just es extreme as hers (given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms)

This is the dogma right at the heart of the problem.

This was written into the constitution shortly after a war with the British Empire. Spain and France were also menacing colonial powers at the time, not to mention the risk of attack from the south and the various tribes of Indians. The US population at the time was 3 million. The world was a dangerous place for the fledgling country at the time. It made sense for citizens, particularly in remote areas with poor access and communications, to protect themselves.

None of the above applies now. The biggest danger to citizens in the US is either car crashes, or a gun owner who is either careless or has just had a bad day or has some sort of disorder.

It is simply incredible that one of the most popular arguments to deal with the mass-murders and high level of gun crime, is to demand a return to days of the Wild West.
MWWSI 2017

muppet

Quote from: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:36:55 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 04:41:20 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on December 05, 2015, 04:41:51 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 02:29:38 AM
Quote from: moysider on December 05, 2015, 02:15:42 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 01:58:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

:o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that

Not Arizona, but a similar type of mindset, at least in parts of the state in question.

And yes, I was not comfortable. My, at the time, 3 year old was removed from the situation whenever he went near them.

Theres a coffee shop next town over, and a plain clothes cop goes in there.  For some reason he always has his gun on his hip, and I always jump when I see it . I cant imagine being around numerous people at a cook out who were carrying....I think Id leave

So would I.

I don't like seeing cops carrying them either, but in some countries this is a necessary evil.
MWWSI 2017

stew

Check out the guns laws in the state that just had 14 killed and 27 injured, makes for some interesting reading and I am no pro gun advocate.
Armagh, the one true love of a mans life.

muppet

Quote from: stew on December 06, 2015, 06:16:27 PM
Check out the guns laws in the state that just had 14 killed and 27 injured, makes for some interesting reading and I am no pro gun advocate.

Can you post them up please?
MWWSI 2017

whitey

Quote from: muppet on December 06, 2015, 05:52:12 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:32:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 06, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

I dont agree with everything she said, but she was debating with someone who would confiscate every gun in the country if she had her way, a view that is just es extreme as hers (given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms)

This is the dogma right at the heart of the problem.

This was written into the constitution shortly after a war with the British Empire. Spain and France were also menacing colonial powers at the time, not to mention the risk of attack from the south and the various tribes of Indians. The US population at the time was 3 million. The world was a dangerous place for the fledgling country at the time. It made sense for citizens, particularly in remote areas with poor access and communications, to protect themselves.

None of the above applies now. The biggest danger to citizens in the US is either car crashes, or a gun owner who is either careless or has just had a bad day or has some sort of disorder.

It is simply incredible that one of the most popular arguments to deal with the mass-murders and high level of gun crime, is to demand a return to days of the Wild West.

Legal minds well above your and mines pay grade, have affirmed this right so unless the constitution gets amended, it's not going anywhere.

muppet

Quote from: whitey on December 06, 2015, 06:34:00 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 06, 2015, 05:52:12 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:32:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 06, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

I dont agree with everything she said, but she was debating with someone who would confiscate every gun in the country if she had her way, a view that is just es extreme as hers (given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms)

This is the dogma right at the heart of the problem.

This was written into the constitution shortly after a war with the British Empire. Spain and France were also menacing colonial powers at the time, not to mention the risk of attack from the south and the various tribes of Indians. The US population at the time was 3 million. The world was a dangerous place for the fledgling country at the time. It made sense for citizens, particularly in remote areas with poor access and communications, to protect themselves.

None of the above applies now. The biggest danger to citizens in the US is either car crashes, or a gun owner who is either careless or has just had a bad day or has some sort of disorder.

It is simply incredible that one of the most popular arguments to deal with the mass-murders and high level of gun crime, is to demand a return to days of the Wild West.

Legal minds well above your and mines pay grade, have affirmed this right so unless the constitution gets amended, it's not going anywhere.

People said the same thing about gay marriage.

And condoms in Ireland.

Apartheid in SA.

Slavery.

Everything changes. The only question is when.
MWWSI 2017

stew

You are right muppet, change is the only constant in life, as we speak Muslim extremists are entering the USA under this Muslim centric President, a man who tells the world he is sending in a handful of his finest to work in a war zone, a man who cannot bring himself to call it what it is, extremist Muslim terrorists are trying to destroy the western way of life.
Armagh, the one true love of a mans life.

muppet

Quote from: stew on December 06, 2015, 06:46:12 PM
You are right muppet, change is the only constant in life, as we speak Muslim extremists are entering the USA under this Muslim centric President, a man who tells the world he is sending in a handful of his finest to work in a war zone, a man who cannot bring himself to call it what it is, extremist Muslim terrorists are trying to destroy the western way of life.

But surely they were shocked and awed by the last Republican leadership?

Surely mission was accomplished?

Let's face it Stew, you are far more likely to be killed by someone you pass every day, than by a Muslim terrorist.

But I do agree they are making some headway. The sheer terror oozing from some of your posts is evidence of that. That is the goal of terrorism and you are inadvertently aiding them, with comments like they are 'trying to destroy the western way of life' etc.

MWWSI 2017

stew

Muppet, it is in their DNA you cannot deny that it is Muslim extremists that attacked California and Paris can you? The c***ts want us all dead, not just us conservatives, they want you dead too dear.
Armagh, the one true love of a mans life.