Would you be in favour of a second tier?

[AZOffaly]

A 32 team professional sport = NFL.

Last 20 years.

Packers
Broncos
Rams
Ravens
Patriots
Buccaneers
Steelers
Colts
Giants
Saints
Seahawks

And beaten finalists
Falcons
Titans
Raiders
Panthers
Eagles
Bears
Cardinals
49ers

So out of 32 teams, in the last 20 years there have been 19 different teams in the Superbowl. Obviously some powerhouses like the Patriots appear more than once, but nonetheless that's quite a competitive spread.

Of course the NFL is professional, and thus has movement of players which we do not want. However they have twigged that they need to enforce financial constraints (salary cap) and player welfare considerations thrashed out in the CBA to minimise length of season, off season training etc.

They do a lot wrong in the NFL, but they realise that allowing the big teams free rein in terms of financial power leads to lopsided competition structures, so they've tried to reduce that.

Interestingly, you could say they have a two phased Championship. Everyone plays 16 games, and then the top 6 in both provinces, I mean conferences, play a straight knockout playoffs for the Superbowl.

We can't lift and shift the NFL structure onto Gaelic football, but we can consider their approach to shared revenue and salary caps in a bid to level the playing field. This from the most capitalistic sport in the most capitalistic country in the world.

[westbound]

Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.

Is it the case that lesser numbers are going to matches now because supporters think they have no chance of winning?
I wouldn't agree with that.
Ourselves and Leitrim had no chance of winning an all ireland in 2009/10/11 either so the fall off in attendance is not due to us and Leitrim all of a sudden becoming uncompetitive (in fact, you could argue that we are more competitive now because we are in div 1/2 of the league vs Divs 3/4 in those years).

I'm not convinced that putting us and Leitrim in an inter/junior comp will automatically result in crowds increasing.

Is it possible to get league attendance figures from the last few years? An interesting test would be to check attendances at games between the same teams in different divisions of the league. For example, Ros V Cavan in Div1, Div2 and Div3. or Ros V Mon in Div1 against Div 3 a few years ago. I know there are other factors at play (e.g. different venues etc.) but I would guess that attendances were higher when teams meet in Div 1 rather than the lower division even though the teams would have better chances of winning the lower division. I could be proved wrong, but it'd be interesting to see the stats.
Other teams off the top of my head that would have meet in different divisions, RosVDown, TyroneVCavan, CorkVDown, WestmeathVKildare

[manfromdelmonte]

all sports in the USA are run on a very communist style organisation designed to keep things very competitive and ensure fairness in terms of budget, player rosters etc

NBA
NFL
NHL
MLB
NCAA

[Esmarelda]

Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.

No, that the main stakeholders, i.e. players, management, spectators, don't necessarily see the ability to win Sam as the main factor for remaining in the race to win it.

[AZOffaly]

all sports in the USA are run on a very communist style organisation designed to keep things very competitive and ensure fairness in terms of budget, player rosters etc

NBA
NFL
NHL
MLB
NCAA

NCAA is not. It's the most lopsided of all even though it is amateur. Granted some TV rights and the like are shared between conferences, but there's nothing to stop big colleges paying massive coaching salaries, or in the biggest schools recruiting the best players because they have the best facilities or the big name.

MLB doesn't have a salary cap I believe, and therefore you have massive wage bills and free agent signings. When the Yankees are involved, they usually get who they want, or at least they did up until about 5 years ago. They have introduced a luxury tax alright, which penalises those high salaries, but it's not stopping them.

[Rossfan]

Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

[Hound]

Should more counties go down the "Jack Charlton route"?

Maybe all minor and U21 teams from Dublin, Cork, Kerry, (etc?) ... should be made list where their parents are from, e.g:

Sean Og O hAilpin - mother from Fiji, father from Fermanagh

So if he hadn't made the breakthrough into the Cork senior team, Fermanagh (or Fiji!) could have tried to persuade him to play with them.

[Estimator]

Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

There was only 5 different winners in those years (sharing 22 titles)
Kerry 10 titles
Dublin 4 titles
Offaly 3 titles
Cork 3 titles
Meath 2 titles

And a number of those finals were non-events as it was so one-sided.

I'm sure teams still want the opportunity to play for the top prize, it doesn't matter it they are rank outsiders, they still want the chance to take on a big team, a chance of Provincial/ All Ireland glory etc.

A local club example would be Glenullin, they were relegated from the top division in 2015, which meant that they would play in the Intermediate C'ship in 2016 (League and C'ship is linked in Derry).  Instead they applied to play in the Senior C'ship, which was granted to them.  This meant a rejig of the draw and a Premlim fixture had to be played. Glenullin were beaten by 6pts by Loup in the first round.

Glenullin, won the Intermediate league at a canter.  They probably would have won the Intermediate C'ship easily, and could possibly have won Ulster and All-Ireland titles.  But they wanted the opportunity to play in the Senior Championship.  They would probably make the same decision again if it happened.

The promises of similar coverage, and big days in Croke Park for Intermediate and Junior teams playing in the Paidi Cup, or whatever they would be called, are ridiculous. Look at the coverage the finals of the Ring, Rackard, Meagher had this year.  The finals were held on a random Saturday in June. It was only being streamed on the TG4 website.  Its not something that you accidentally find when you are scrolling through the channels.  You had to know where to go to find the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier hurling finals.  Exactly the same thing would happen in the football.

[westbound]

Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.

[Esmarelda]

Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

[/b]
No idea and no idea why you're asking me in response to my point.

It might be that if a tiered championship was introduced that it would be the best thing that the GAA ever did. However, as it stands, there will be huge resistance to it for many reasons. Not agreeing with the logic doesn't mean they don't exist regardless of what you try to compare it to.

[Hound]

Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

Yeah, there was an 18 year period (between Galway beating Down in the AI semi final of 1973 and Down beating Kerry in the semi final of 1991) where the Connacht/Ulster champions lost to the Munster/Leinster champions every time they played in semi finals/finals. There were 2 draws in 1985, but not too many others

[Rossfan]

Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.

I am in favour of keeping the Provincials with all teams taking part.
It's just the A.I.s  should be Senior/Inter/Junior.

[Syferus]

Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.

I am in favour of keeping the Provincials with all teams taking part.
It's just the A.I.s  should be Senior/Inter/Junior.

Aka Tommy Murph lite.

[Keyser soze]

I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see. 

[seafoid]

Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

Yeah, there was an 18 year period (between Galway beating Down in the AI semi final of 1973 and Down beating Kerry in the semi final of 1991) where the Connacht/Ulster champions lost to the Munster/Leinster champions every time they played in semi finals/finals. There were 2 draws in 1985, but not too many others

87 also had a draw between Cork and Galway