Down Club Hurling & Football

[Mike Tyson]

I think it is a positive thing that Down CCC are always looking at ways to improve our competitions and there has obviously been a lot of thought go into these new proposals. However, I'm not sure it will work.
Clubs like Kilcoo and Burren are increasingly using the depth of their panel to get through their Division 1 campaigns. Both probably used at least 30 different players this year.
I've no doubt the likes of Kilcoo, Burren, Clonduff and Mayobridge could cater for two senior teams in the ACFL structure.
Looking at the Armagh model the likes of Crossmaglen II's and Cullyhanna II's have essentially become a distinct entity within their club. But do our top clubs have the desire to run two teams on Friday night? Think of the logistics and personnel required to do this. Then there are the demands of the first team manager who may want 27/28 players to travel with his squad.
I'd be more inclined to see things stay how they are in this instance.
For me, and I've mooted it before, but four divisions of eight teams and one division of ten teams I think is and always has been our best option.
A two way league gives 14 fixtures for the top four divisions and 18 fixtures for the fifth division. After the league proper in the top four divisions the top four teams would go into a round robin playoff system with the top two teams at the end of this earning promotion and the top placed team winning the league. The bottom four teams would enter a relegation playoff round robin series with the bottom two getting relegated. In division five the top four teams would contest the promotion playoff only.
This all guarantees a definitive 17 league games per season for divisions 1 to 4 and at least 18 (maximum of 21) in division 5. I also think it would provide for much sterner competition and allows for a bit more flexibility with the calendar.
To add to this I'd bring in a Novice Championship. It would be essentially the fourth grade after the SFC, IFC and JFC. Teams beaten in the preliminary round and quarter finals of the JFC would then enter the NFC. Teams at the bottom of the basement division need something to strive for. The establishment of the Donard Cup and Shield has gone someway to addressing this but a proper Novice Championship would add a lot more prestige and value. Cork and Kerry run with one of these two.

Could look something like this going on this year's league positions:

Division 1

Castlewellan - Warrenpoint - Mayobridge - Burren - Kilcoo - Bryansford - Clonduff - Downpatrick

Division 2

Ballyholland - An Riocht - Longstone - Glenn - Saval - Rostrevor - Carryduff - Loughinisland

Division 3

Bredagh - St John's - Liatroim - Darragh Cross - Ballymartin - Shamrocks - Annaclone - Drumaness

Division 4

Tullylish - Clann na Banna - Drumgath - Saul - Glasdrumman - Bosco - Dundrum - Atticall

Division 5

Teconnaught - St Paul's - Ardglass - Dromara - Kilclief - St Michael's - Bright - Mitchels - Aghaderg - Ballykinlar

Like the look of that set up. How would championship work? Div1&2 = SFC, Div3&4 = IFC and Div5 = JFC?

[gaaman2016]

I think it is a positive thing that Down CCC are always looking at ways to improve our competitions and there has obviously been a lot of thought go into these new proposals. However, I'm not sure it will work.
Clubs like Kilcoo and Burren are increasingly using the depth of their panel to get through their Division 1 campaigns. Both probably used at least 30 different players this year.
I've no doubt the likes of Kilcoo, Burren, Clonduff and Mayobridge could cater for two senior teams in the ACFL structure.
Looking at the Armagh model the likes of Crossmaglen II's and Cullyhanna II's have essentially become a distinct entity within their club. But do our top clubs have the desire to run two teams on Friday night? Think of the logistics and personnel required to do this. Then there are the demands of the first team manager who may want 27/28 players to travel with his squad.
I'd be more inclined to see things stay how they are in this instance.
For me, and I've mooted it before, but four divisions of eight teams and one division of ten teams I think is and always has been our best option.
A two way league gives 14 fixtures for the top four divisions and 18 fixtures for the fifth division. After the league proper in the top four divisions the top four teams would go into a round robin playoff system with the top two teams at the end of this earning promotion and the top placed team winning the league. The bottom four teams would enter a relegation playoff round robin series with the bottom two getting relegated. In division five the top four teams would contest the promotion playoff only.
This all guarantees a definitive 17 league games per season for divisions 1 to 4 and at least 18 (maximum of 21) in division 5. I also think it would provide for much sterner competition and allows for a bit more flexibility with the calendar.
To add to this I'd bring in a Novice Championship. It would be essentially the fourth grade after the SFC, IFC and JFC. Teams beaten in the preliminary round and quarter finals of the JFC would then enter the NFC. Teams at the bottom of the basement division need something to strive for. The establishment of the Donard Cup and Shield has gone someway to addressing this but a proper Novice Championship would add a lot more prestige and value. Cork and Kerry run with one of these two.

Could look something like this going on this year's league positions:

Division 1

Castlewellan - Warrenpoint - Mayobridge - Burren - Kilcoo - Bryansford - Clonduff - Downpatrick

Division 2

Ballyholland - An Riocht - Longstone - Glenn - Saval - Rostrevor - Carryduff - Loughinisland

Division 3

Bredagh - St John's - Liatroim - Darragh Cross - Ballymartin - Shamrocks - Annaclone - Drumaness

Division 4

Tullylish - Clann na Banna - Drumgath - Saul - Glasdrumman - Bosco - Dundrum - Atticall

Division 5

Teconnaught - St Paul's - Ardglass - Dromara - Kilclief - St Michael's - Bright - Mitchels - Aghaderg - Ballykinlar

Like the look of that set up. How would championship work? Div1&2 = SFC, Div3&4 = IFC and Div5 = JFC?

Have to agree looks ideal based on the current strength of clubs. Apart from the odd team it would be difficult predict results in alot of the Divisions. I like the 12 team setups atm but I feel wr need to revert the championship back to straight knockout. When you have a small panel and are having to play 25/26 games fatigue/injury kicks in

[Lecale Gael]

Back in the 80's I seem to remember Annsborough playing in division 5 against Castlewellan seconds

To put the best six premier reserves into Division 4 is madness as the premier reserves would give most of the current div 3 teams a run for their money. would be better putting all six into div 3 now than death by a thousand cuts. and why will they not because you could have a team or two promoted to div 2 in the first year.

its not just division 4 that should be concerned but every club outwith div 1

I am all for improvements but this only improves things for the establishment clubs, the big clubs in Down that need to cater for 30 - 45 players, another thing it will need more referees and therein lies the main reason why it wont work period

[Lecale Gael]

I think it is a positive thing that Down CCC are always looking at ways to improve our competitions and there has obviously been a lot of thought go into these new proposals. However, I'm not sure it will work.
Clubs like Kilcoo and Burren are increasingly using the depth of their panel to get through their Division 1 campaigns. Both probably used at least 30 different players this year.
I've no doubt the likes of Kilcoo, Burren, Clonduff and Mayobridge could cater for two senior teams in the ACFL structure.
Looking at the Armagh model the likes of Crossmaglen II's and Cullyhanna II's have essentially become a distinct entity within their club. But do our top clubs have the desire to run two teams on Friday night? Think of the logistics and personnel required to do this. Then there are the demands of the first team manager who may want 27/28 players to travel with his squad.
I'd be more inclined to see things stay how they are in this instance.
For me, and I've mooted it before, but four divisions of eight teams and one division of ten teams I think is and always has been our best option.
A two way league gives 14 fixtures for the top four divisions and 18 fixtures for the fifth division. After the league proper in the top four divisions the top four teams would go into a round robin playoff system with the top two teams at the end of this earning promotion and the top placed team winning the league. The bottom four teams would enter a relegation playoff round robin series with the bottom two getting relegated. In division five the top four teams would contest the promotion playoff only.
This all guarantees a definitive 17 league games per season for divisions 1 to 4 and at least 18 (maximum of 21) in division 5. I also think it would provide for much sterner competition and allows for a bit more flexibility with the calendar.
To add to this I'd bring in a Novice Championship. It would be essentially the fourth grade after the SFC, IFC and JFC. Teams beaten in the preliminary round and quarter finals of the JFC would then enter the NFC. Teams at the bottom of the basement division need something to strive for. The establishment of the Donard Cup and Shield has gone someway to addressing this but a proper Novice Championship would add a lot more prestige and value. Cork and Kerry run with one of these two.

Could look something like this going on this year's league positions:

Division 1

Castlewellan - Warrenpoint - Mayobridge - Burren - Kilcoo - Bryansford - Clonduff - Downpatrick

Division 2

Ballyholland - An Riocht - Longstone - Glenn - Saval - Rostrevor - Carryduff - Loughinisland

Division 3

Bredagh - St John's - Liatroim - Darragh Cross - Ballymartin - Shamrocks - Annaclone - Drumaness

Division 4

Tullylish - Clann na Banna - Drumgath - Saul - Glasdrumman - Bosco - Dundrum - Atticall

Division 5

Teconnaught - St Paul's - Ardglass - Dromara - Kilclief - St Michael's - Bright - Mitchels - Aghaderg - Ballykinlar

I do like this suggestion and would go as far to say put it forward as a suggestion for the Down convention

[qubdub]

Down Fanatics proposal is basically what Armagh have minus the play offs. I'm not sure how I feel about a team finishing top of a league then having to win a play off to win it.

Back in the 80's I seem to remember Annsborough playing in division 5 against Castlewellan seconds

To put the best six premier reserves into Division 4 is madness as the premier reserves would give most of the current div 3 teams a run for their money. would be better putting all six into div 3 now than death by a thousand cuts. and why will they not because you could have a team or two promoted to div 2 in the first year.

its not just division 4 that should be concerned but every club outwith div 1

I am all for improvements but this only improves things for the establishment clubs, the big clubs in Down that need to cater for 30 - 45 players, another thing it will need more referees and therein lies the main reason why it wont work period

Surely improving the standard at lower levels will improve the standard overall? Seconds teams also competed in junior championship before with Clonduff and Castlewellan winning titles in early 90s. There's no guarantee it will be a cake walk this time though providing proper rules are put in place and are well enforced. And surely if you take 6 teams away from premier reserve there'll be less matches that needed refereed there?

[gaaman2016]

One comment I see being brought up recently is that smaller clubs seem to be able to retain youth players better than the bigger clubs as with a smaller club once your out of minor and if you're of decent standard your straight into the senior and more inclined to stick around and go into further education/work in Northern Ireland

If you're an 18 year old in a bigger club, you probably know it going to 4/5 years until you get into their senior side, you're more likely inclined to go to Uni accross the water and give up GAA all together

Not sure what the stats are for this.

In reality the  reserve teams in Div 3/4 are only going to strengthen the bigger clubs but at the same time should increase the numbers playing in the county

[DownFanatic]

Down Fanatics proposal is basically what Armagh have minus the play offs. I'm not sure how I feel about a team finishing top of a league then having to win a play off to win it.

Back in the 80's I seem to remember Annsborough playing in division 5 against Castlewellan seconds

To put the best six premier reserves into Division 4 is madness as the premier reserves would give most of the current div 3 teams a run for their money. would be better putting all six into div 3 now than death by a thousand cuts. and why will they not because you could have a team or two promoted to div 2 in the first year.

its not just division 4 that should be concerned but every club outwith div 1

I am all for improvements but this only improves things for the establishment clubs, the big clubs in Down that need to cater for 30 - 45 players, another thing it will need more referees and therein lies the main reason why it wont work period

Surely improving the standard at lower levels will improve the standard overall? Seconds teams also competed in junior championship before with Clonduff and Castlewellan winning titles in early 90s. There's no guarantee it will be a cake walk this time though providing proper rules are put in place and are well enforced. And surely if you take 6 teams away from premier reserve there'll be less matches that needed refereed there?

It's not. Armagh has six divisions. A and B sections in senior, intermediate and junior leagues.

[Down Follower]

There wasnt a whole lot wrong with this year was there?
The biggest problem comes at the end of the year when teams, with nothing to play for, go through the motions.  That is the result of not having any playoffs.  Only the bottom 2 or 3 teams in Div 2 have anything to play for.  All else is sown up from Div 1 to Div 4 and mostly has been for some time.
If there are not going to be league playoffs, then it is probably a better option to finish the leagues before championship is played.
Aside from that, most of the year saw competitive games throughout.  The bigger clubs with more county players are victims of their own success when they lose them to the county for that spring/summer period but I dont think anyone would want to go to a place where we dont play games because county players arent available. 

Most weeks there was a game on the Friday night, and the championship back door I think works alright.  You sense the anticipation of the quarter finals coming and whats wrong with having a few games to sort that out!

Reserve leagues finishing up earlier also well, although why some regional reserve games are still happening I have no idea.  I think U20/21 should run earlier in the year as well.

I have no problem with the co board looking at alternatives as we should always strive to get the optimal set up but as others have said, the premier teams competing in Div 4 will prove a logistical nightmare for most clubs involved.  If they can do it then more power to them and is bound to provide a stronger first team in years to come for those who can.  Down Fanatics proposal is not half bad but it introduces the play offs idea again which people wanted rid off just a few years ago. 

Ultimately, you want a game every week, you want as many players as possible to get a game, you want the 18-20 group looked after and kept involved while also not overbearing them, ideally you want each game to matter, and you want the cream coming to the top by the end of September/October.   Whichever system gets as close to that is the one I would choose.

[gaaman2016]

Main problem this year was that county management had too much power when it came to the starring of fixtures. Our own club had someone on the county panel who played no championship minutes and was unavailable for the club for around 7/8 weeks. A bit of common sense should have prevailed here but it didn't

In that time frame we had three draws and two one point defeats, not saying we would have won those matches and although not a fan of playoff when you have one side not being able to field their strongest side for a 7/8 week period and someone finishing above you who had no one in the county panel something needs to be done to address this.

[bigarsedkeeper]

Overall our league set up is pretty good - regular games on Friday nights mostly. This year the county team doing better than expected caused issues with fixtures. If we want to allow for something like this and getting leagues finished up before the championship, reducing the leagues to 10 teams could be a easy solution.

On the reserve leagues it's mad they're still going now but it came down to the fact there was next to no games played during the championship period. It's nearly impossible to sort reserve football out. Its the same all over the country though. Smaller league groups would maybe help next year. I think there was too many teams to work around this year in the south down league anyway. There always seems to be something on in clubs on sundays. Everything from tractor runs to fun runs get games moved.

[eyeswideopen]

I think it is a positive thing that Down CCC are always looking at ways to improve our competitions and there has obviously been a lot of thought go into these new proposals. However, I'm not sure it will work.
Clubs like Kilcoo and Burren are increasingly using the depth of their panel to get through their Division 1 campaigns. Both probably used at least 30 different players this year.
I've no doubt the likes of Kilcoo, Burren, Clonduff and Mayobridge could cater for two senior teams in the ACFL structure.
Looking at the Armagh model the likes of Crossmaglen II's and Cullyhanna II's have essentially become a distinct entity within their club. But do our top clubs have the desire to run two teams on Friday night? Think of the logistics and personnel required to do this. Then there are the demands of the first team manager who may want 27/28 players to travel with his squad.
I'd be more inclined to see things stay how they are in this instance.
For me, and I've mooted it before, but four divisions of eight teams and one division of ten teams I think is and always has been our best option.
A two way league gives 14 fixtures for the top four divisions and 18 fixtures for the fifth division. After the league proper in the top four divisions the top four teams would go into a round robin playoff system with the top two teams at the end of this earning promotion and the top placed team winning the league. The bottom four teams would enter a relegation playoff round robin series with the bottom two getting relegated. In division five the top four teams would contest the promotion playoff only.
This all guarantees a definitive 17 league games per season for divisions 1 to 4 and at least 18 (maximum of 21) in division 5. I also think it would provide for much sterner competition and allows for a bit more flexibility with the calendar.
To add to this I'd bring in a Novice Championship. It would be essentially the fourth grade after the SFC, IFC and JFC. Teams beaten in the preliminary round and quarter finals of the JFC would then enter the NFC. Teams at the bottom of the basement division need something to strive for. The establishment of the Donard Cup and Shield has gone someway to addressing this but a proper Novice Championship would add a lot more prestige and value. Cork and Kerry run with one of these two.

Could look something like this going on this year's league positions:

Division 1

Castlewellan - Warrenpoint - Mayobridge - Burren - Kilcoo - Bryansford - Clonduff - Downpatrick

Division 2

Ballyholland - An Riocht - Longstone - Glenn - Saval - Rostrevor - Carryduff - Loughinisland

Division 3

Bredagh - St John's - Liatroim - Darragh Cross - Ballymartin - Shamrocks - Annaclone - Drumaness

Division 4

Tullylish - Clann na Banna - Drumgath - Saul - Glasdrumman - Bosco - Dundrum - Atticall

Division 5

Teconnaught - St Paul's - Ardglass - Dromara - Kilclief - St Michael's - Bright - Mitchels - Aghaderg - Ballykinlar

Not bad.

[thewobbler]

I like it. Would prefer 10 teams but there's merit in 8.

The playoffs are essential. They were the reason why teams could play starred fixtures safe in the knowledge that all hands would be on deck for the push to stay up.

I'd suggest that the general apathy to club football the past 5-6 weeks is because the games don't matter. With playoffs you still need a focus after leaving the championship.

We played through to Halloween throughout the 90s and 00s and momentum stayed til the end of the season because of them.

[Lecale Gael]

Down Fanatics proposal is basically what Armagh have minus the play offs. I'm not sure how I feel about a team finishing top of a league then having to win a play off to win it.

Back in the 80's I seem to remember Annsborough playing in division 5 against Castlewellan seconds

To put the best six premier reserves into Division 4 is madness as the premier reserves would give most of the current div 3 teams a run for their money. would be better putting all six into div 3 now than death by a thousand cuts. and why will they not because you could have a team or two promoted to div 2 in the first year.

its not just division 4 that should be concerned but every club outwith div 1

I am all for improvements but this only improves things for the establishment clubs, the big clubs in Down that need to cater for 30 - 45 players, another thing it will need more referees and therein lies the main reason why it wont work period

Surely improving the standard at lower levels will improve the standard overall? Seconds teams also competed in junior championship before with Clonduff and Castlewellan winning titles in early 90s. There's no guarantee it will be a cake walk this time though providing proper rules are put in place and are well enforced. And surely if you take 6 teams away from premier reserve there'll be less matches that needed refereed there?

more matches on Friday nights if you read the options

[on the hop]

completely off the point, but I have a facebook page called gaa programme collectors. this year I am trying to collect the 70 odd county final programmes throughout the country. doing well so far but I am finding it hard to source a lot of them in ulster but especially the down hurling or football ones. looking for any advice or help where they can be got. I can be contacted through the Facebook page. thanks

[downjim]

Serious question: if one of your senior players announced that they were joining the psni, how would they be recieved within their community?