Mayo for Sam 2019

Started by TheGreatest, April 01, 2019, 10:57:11 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

five points

#60
Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018

1  Colm Cooper  Kerry  23-283  352  85 games  2002-2017  4.1 
Cillian O'Connor  Mayo  23-272  341  48 games  2011-  7.1 
3  Mikey Sheehy  Kerry  29-205  292  49 games  1973-1988  6.0 
4  John Doyle  Kildare  8-260  284  67 games  1999-2014  4.2 
5  Padraig Joyce  Galway  12-229  265  66 games  1997-2012  4.0 
6   Bernard Brogan  Dublin  21-196  259  58 games  2006-  4.5 
7  Paddy Bradley  Derry  17-202  253  44 games  1999-2012  5.8 
8  Steven McDonnell  Armagh  18-197  251  67 games  1999-2011  3.7 
9   Maurice Fitzgerald  Kerry  12-205  241  45 games  1988-2001  5.4 
10  Brian Stafford  Meath  9-206  233  41 games  1986-1995  5.7 
11  Oisin McConville  Armagh  11-197  230  52 games  1994-2008  4.4 
12  Jimmy Keaveney  Dublin  15-182  227  42 games  1964-1980  5.4 
13  Peter Canavan  Tyrone  9-192  219  58 games  1989-2005  3.8 
14  Conor McManus  Monaghan  7-204  225  50 games  2007-  4.5 
15  Sean Cavanagh  Tyrone  9-181  208  89 games  2002-2017  2.3 
16  Colin Corkery  Cork  5-182  197  32 games  1993-2004  6.2 
17  Ross Munnelly  Laois  6-168  186  70 games  2003-  2.7 
18  Dean Rock  Dublin  8-173  197  36 games  2013-  5.4 
19  Dara O'Cinneide  Kerry  11-149  182  54 games  1995-2005  3.4 
20  Matt Connor  Offaly  13-142  181  26 games  1978-1984  7.0 
21  Pat Spillane  Kerry  19-123  180  56 games  1974-1991  3.2 

Matt Connor's record in a short career stands out there. Tragic what happened him. Had he achieved in what should have been the second half of his career he would be at the top of that list.

Angelo

Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018

1  Colm Cooper  Kerry  23-283  352  85 games  2002-2017  4.1 
Cillian O'Connor  Mayo  23-272  341  48 games  2011-  7.1 
3  Mikey Sheehy  Kerry  29-205  292  49 games  1973-1988  6.0 
4  John Doyle  Kildare  8-260  284  67 games  1999-2014  4.2 
5  Padraig Joyce  Galway  12-229  265  66 games  1997-2012  4.0 
6   Bernard Brogan  Dublin  21-196  259  58 games  2006-  4.5 
7  Paddy Bradley  Derry  17-202  253  44 games  1999-2012  5.8 
8  Steven McDonnell  Armagh  18-197  251  67 games  1999-2011  3.7 
9   Maurice Fitzgerald  Kerry  12-205  241  45 games  1988-2001  5.4 
10  Brian Stafford  Meath  9-206  233  41 games  1986-1995  5.7 
11  Oisin McConville  Armagh  11-197  230  52 games  1994-2008  4.4 
12  Jimmy Keaveney  Dublin  15-182  227  42 games  1964-1980  5.4 
13  Peter Canavan  Tyrone  9-192  219  58 games  1989-2005  3.8 
14  Conor McManus  Monaghan  7-204  225  50 games  2007-  4.5 
15  Sean Cavanagh  Tyrone  9-181  208  89 games  2002-2017  2.3 
16  Colin Corkery  Cork  5-182  197  32 games  1993-2004  6.2 
17  Ross Munnelly  Laois  6-168  186  70 games  2003-  2.7 
18  Dean Rock  Dublin  8-173  197  36 games  2013-  5.4 
19  Dara O'Cinneide  Kerry  11-149  182  54 games  1995-2005  3.4 
20  Matt Connor  Offaly  13-142  181  26 games  1978-1984  7.0 
21  Pat Spillane  Kerry  19-123  180  56 games  1974-1991  3.2 


I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.

PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.

I don't really understand this logic, O'Connor's scoring rate is phenomenal but when you look a bit behind the statistics, you'd find that a huge proportion of his scores come from dead balls around the 21 yard line.

I put up a graph earlier in the thread of his 2017 scoring tally from frees, he scored 27 points from frees around, inside on around the central area of the 20 metre line. They are gimmees even for an average club free taker.

A lot of people tend to want to argue different things about O'Connor, for me he is not a top level forward and I think pointing at his scoring record is weak because it is boosted enormously by the number of handy frees he converts.

As for Bradley he was a top level forward and was Derry's main man for years, if you marked Paddy Bradley out of a game, Derry weren't going to win and on many occasions teams sacrificed a few players for this and it still didn't work.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

MayoBuck

Quote from: Angelo on April 05, 2019, 08:01:56 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018

1  Colm Cooper  Kerry  23-283  352  85 games  2002-2017  4.1 
Cillian O'Connor  Mayo  23-272  341  48 games  2011-  7.1 
3  Mikey Sheehy  Kerry  29-205  292  49 games  1973-1988  6.0 
4  John Doyle  Kildare  8-260  284  67 games  1999-2014  4.2 
5  Padraig Joyce  Galway  12-229  265  66 games  1997-2012  4.0 
6   Bernard Brogan  Dublin  21-196  259  58 games  2006-  4.5 
7  Paddy Bradley  Derry  17-202  253  44 games  1999-2012  5.8 
8  Steven McDonnell  Armagh  18-197  251  67 games  1999-2011  3.7 
9   Maurice Fitzgerald  Kerry  12-205  241  45 games  1988-2001  5.4 
10  Brian Stafford  Meath  9-206  233  41 games  1986-1995  5.7 
11  Oisin McConville  Armagh  11-197  230  52 games  1994-2008  4.4 
12  Jimmy Keaveney  Dublin  15-182  227  42 games  1964-1980  5.4 
13  Peter Canavan  Tyrone  9-192  219  58 games  1989-2005  3.8 
14  Conor McManus  Monaghan  7-204  225  50 games  2007-  4.5 
15  Sean Cavanagh  Tyrone  9-181  208  89 games  2002-2017  2.3 
16  Colin Corkery  Cork  5-182  197  32 games  1993-2004  6.2 
17  Ross Munnelly  Laois  6-168  186  70 games  2003-  2.7 
18  Dean Rock  Dublin  8-173  197  36 games  2013-  5.4 
19  Dara O'Cinneide  Kerry  11-149  182  54 games  1995-2005  3.4 
20  Matt Connor  Offaly  13-142  181  26 games  1978-1984  7.0 
21  Pat Spillane  Kerry  19-123  180  56 games  1974-1991  3.2 


I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.

PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.

I don't really understand this logic, O'Connor's scoring rate is phenomenal but when you look a bit behind the statistics, you'd find that a huge proportion of his scores come from dead balls around the 21 yard line.

I put up a graph earlier in the thread of his 2017 scoring tally from frees, he scored 27 points from frees around, inside on around the central area of the 20 metre line. They are gimmees even for an average club free taker.

A lot of people tend to want to argue different things about O'Connor, for me he is not a top level forward and I think pointing at his scoring record is weak because it is boosted enormously by the number of handy frees he converts.

As for Bradley he was a top level forward and was Derry's main man for years, if you marked Paddy Bradley out of a game, Derry weren't going to win and on many occasions teams sacrificed a few players for this and it still didn't work.

You'd swear Cillian is the only person who scores 21 yard frees. Gooch would have scored plenty of them in his day, as does Rock, Shane Walsh, McManus, McBrearty etc these days. Look at Sean O'Shea the last day. Scored 5 frees but missed the 2 most difficult ones he had. Accuracy tends to drop the further away from goal you go.

I didn't want to start naming names but since you brought up Conor McAliskey earlier, do you not remember the 2016 quarter final? Tyrone were every bit as good as us in general play but McAliskey and other Tyrone forwards couldn't score from play and missed several frees. Tyrone would have won the game easily if they had a forward of Cillian's calibre.

Angelo

Quote from: MayoBuck on April 05, 2019, 10:11:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on April 05, 2019, 08:01:56 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018

1  Colm Cooper  Kerry  23-283  352  85 games  2002-2017  4.1 
Cillian O'Connor  Mayo  23-272  341  48 games  2011-  7.1 
3  Mikey Sheehy  Kerry  29-205  292  49 games  1973-1988  6.0 
4  John Doyle  Kildare  8-260  284  67 games  1999-2014  4.2 
5  Padraig Joyce  Galway  12-229  265  66 games  1997-2012  4.0 
6   Bernard Brogan  Dublin  21-196  259  58 games  2006-  4.5 
7  Paddy Bradley  Derry  17-202  253  44 games  1999-2012  5.8 
8  Steven McDonnell  Armagh  18-197  251  67 games  1999-2011  3.7 
9   Maurice Fitzgerald  Kerry  12-205  241  45 games  1988-2001  5.4 
10  Brian Stafford  Meath  9-206  233  41 games  1986-1995  5.7 
11  Oisin McConville  Armagh  11-197  230  52 games  1994-2008  4.4 
12  Jimmy Keaveney  Dublin  15-182  227  42 games  1964-1980  5.4 
13  Peter Canavan  Tyrone  9-192  219  58 games  1989-2005  3.8 
14  Conor McManus  Monaghan  7-204  225  50 games  2007-  4.5 
15  Sean Cavanagh  Tyrone  9-181  208  89 games  2002-2017  2.3 
16  Colin Corkery  Cork  5-182  197  32 games  1993-2004  6.2 
17  Ross Munnelly  Laois  6-168  186  70 games  2003-  2.7 
18  Dean Rock  Dublin  8-173  197  36 games  2013-  5.4 
19  Dara O'Cinneide  Kerry  11-149  182  54 games  1995-2005  3.4 
20  Matt Connor  Offaly  13-142  181  26 games  1978-1984  7.0 
21  Pat Spillane  Kerry  19-123  180  56 games  1974-1991  3.2 


I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.

PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.

I don't really understand this logic, O'Connor's scoring rate is phenomenal but when you look a bit behind the statistics, you'd find that a huge proportion of his scores come from dead balls around the 21 yard line.

I put up a graph earlier in the thread of his 2017 scoring tally from frees, he scored 27 points from frees around, inside on around the central area of the 20 metre line. They are gimmees even for an average club free taker.

A lot of people tend to want to argue different things about O'Connor, for me he is not a top level forward and I think pointing at his scoring record is weak because it is boosted enormously by the number of handy frees he converts.

As for Bradley he was a top level forward and was Derry's main man for years, if you marked Paddy Bradley out of a game, Derry weren't going to win and on many occasions teams sacrificed a few players for this and it still didn't work.

You'd swear Cillian is the only person who scores 21 yard frees. Gooch would have scored plenty of them in his day, as does Rock, Shane Walsh, McManus, McBrearty etc these days. Look at Sean O'Shea the last day. Scored 5 frees but missed the 2 most difficult ones he had. Accuracy tends to drop the further away from goal you go.

I didn't want to start naming names but since you brought up Conor McAliskey earlier, do you not remember the 2016 quarter final? Tyrone were every bit as good as us in general play but McAliskey and other Tyrone forwards couldn't score from play and missed several frees. Tyrone would have won the game easily if they had a forward of Cillian's calibre.

Again you're completely missing the point. Tyrone would not have won the game if they had a forward like O'Connor in my opinion. Our problems with frees have been generally we don't have a reliable free taker from long range, I think the stats suggest that O'Connor is fairly hit and miss from that range too. I think we have forwards who offer more from open play than O'Connor does but our style of play means they don't get the kind of service they would do with Mayo. He's a bit like how I would regard McCurry and McAliskey etc, good but not top level.

I brought up McAliskey earlier, I think he's a very good player and an important member of our squad, he was the second top scorer in championship football last season - both overall and from play. I wouldn't say he is a top level forward though, I'd probably have him over O'Connor given the choice as while he may not be as clinical a finisher, his movement is better, he shows for the ball more, has a better left foot and a bit more flair and pace about him. He didn't even get an all star nomination last year so that goes to show that scoring heavily for a county who goes to the end of the summer doesn't really say a lot.

It's lazy analysis to constantly point to the scoring charts when valid criticisms of O'Connor are brought to the fore, the vast bulk of O'Connor's scores would seem to be placed balls inside or around the central area of the 20 metre line on the pitch - they are gimmees for any decent, even average free taker. Mayo will always generate more of these frees than the vast majority of teams with the pace and direct nature of the game they play - so if Mayo perform at all then O'Connor is going to score a bucket load, regardless of how well or poorly he plays.

As for Tyrone's issue with frees, we don't have an issue with the handy 21 yard frees in front of the posts, we have plenty of players who can tap those over with their eyes closed. We have had an issue for a number of years with the long range frees, I don't think O'Connor really fares an awful lot better than our lads in that area though, it can be quite misleading though as I think in terms of proportion of frees, Mayo seem to get much more handy frees closer in to goal than Tyrone do due to the differing styles of play of both sides.

Rather than getting overly sensitive I think you need to be looking more objectively at what the criticisms proffered up are actually saying. Nobody is criticising him for scoring 21 yard frees but when his scoring record over the past number of years is put forward, it has to be noted that a lot of the scores he gets are from handy frees in front of the posts that he does little in terms of winning but he will be the guys who gets the plaudits for the scores. It's a fair comment and just because O'Connor regularly tops the scoring charts it doesn't mean he shouldn't be in the line of criticisms.

If you want to win an All Ireland and you've been mightily close to in recent years, you have got to look at the starting players and the little margins they can improve upon to win it. If I look across the Mayo starting XV and look at what players possibly need to be doing more, the two that would have jumped out at me in recent years are Aidan O'Shea and Cillian O'Connor.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

MayoBuck

Quote from: Angelo on April 05, 2019, 10:59:52 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on April 05, 2019, 10:11:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on April 05, 2019, 08:01:56 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018

1  Colm Cooper  Kerry  23-283  352  85 games  2002-2017  4.1 
Cillian O'Connor  Mayo  23-272  341  48 games  2011-  7.1 
3  Mikey Sheehy  Kerry  29-205  292  49 games  1973-1988  6.0 
4  John Doyle  Kildare  8-260  284  67 games  1999-2014  4.2 
5  Padraig Joyce  Galway  12-229  265  66 games  1997-2012  4.0 
6   Bernard Brogan  Dublin  21-196  259  58 games  2006-  4.5 
7  Paddy Bradley  Derry  17-202  253  44 games  1999-2012  5.8 
8  Steven McDonnell  Armagh  18-197  251  67 games  1999-2011  3.7 
9   Maurice Fitzgerald  Kerry  12-205  241  45 games  1988-2001  5.4 
10  Brian Stafford  Meath  9-206  233  41 games  1986-1995  5.7 
11  Oisin McConville  Armagh  11-197  230  52 games  1994-2008  4.4 
12  Jimmy Keaveney  Dublin  15-182  227  42 games  1964-1980  5.4 
13  Peter Canavan  Tyrone  9-192  219  58 games  1989-2005  3.8 
14  Conor McManus  Monaghan  7-204  225  50 games  2007-  4.5 
15  Sean Cavanagh  Tyrone  9-181  208  89 games  2002-2017  2.3 
16  Colin Corkery  Cork  5-182  197  32 games  1993-2004  6.2 
17  Ross Munnelly  Laois  6-168  186  70 games  2003-  2.7 
18  Dean Rock  Dublin  8-173  197  36 games  2013-  5.4 
19  Dara O'Cinneide  Kerry  11-149  182  54 games  1995-2005  3.4 
20  Matt Connor  Offaly  13-142  181  26 games  1978-1984  7.0 
21  Pat Spillane  Kerry  19-123  180  56 games  1974-1991  3.2 


I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.

PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.

I don't really understand this logic, O'Connor's scoring rate is phenomenal but when you look a bit behind the statistics, you'd find that a huge proportion of his scores come from dead balls around the 21 yard line.

I put up a graph earlier in the thread of his 2017 scoring tally from frees, he scored 27 points from frees around, inside on around the central area of the 20 metre line. They are gimmees even for an average club free taker.

A lot of people tend to want to argue different things about O'Connor, for me he is not a top level forward and I think pointing at his scoring record is weak because it is boosted enormously by the number of handy frees he converts.

As for Bradley he was a top level forward and was Derry's main man for years, if you marked Paddy Bradley out of a game, Derry weren't going to win and on many occasions teams sacrificed a few players for this and it still didn't work.

You'd swear Cillian is the only person who scores 21 yard frees. Gooch would have scored plenty of them in his day, as does Rock, Shane Walsh, McManus, McBrearty etc these days. Look at Sean O'Shea the last day. Scored 5 frees but missed the 2 most difficult ones he had. Accuracy tends to drop the further away from goal you go.

I didn't want to start naming names but since you brought up Conor McAliskey earlier, do you not remember the 2016 quarter final? Tyrone were every bit as good as us in general play but McAliskey and other Tyrone forwards couldn't score from play and missed several frees. Tyrone would have won the game easily if they had a forward of Cillian's calibre.

Again you're completely missing the point. Tyrone would not have won the game if they had a forward like O'Connor in my opinion. Our problems with frees have been generally we don't have a reliable free taker from long range, I think the stats suggest that O'Connor is fairly hit and miss from that range too. I think we have forwards who offer more from open play than O'Connor does but our style of play means they don't get the kind of service they would do with Mayo. He's a bit like how I would regard McCurry and McAliskey etc, good but not top level.

I brought up McAliskey earlier, I think he's a very good player and an important member of our squad, he was the second top scorer in championship football last season - both overall and from play. I wouldn't say he is a top level forward though, I'd probably have him over O'Connor given the choice as while he may not be as clinical a finisher, his movement is better, he shows for the ball more, has a better left foot and a bit more flair and pace about him. He didn't even get an all star nomination last year so that goes to show that scoring heavily for a county who goes to the end of the summer doesn't really say a lot.

It's lazy analysis to constantly point to the scoring charts when valid criticisms of O'Connor are brought to the fore, the vast bulk of O'Connor's scores would seem to be placed balls inside or around the central area of the 20 metre line on the pitch - they are gimmees for any decent, even average free taker. Mayo will always generate more of these frees than the vast majority of teams with the pace and direct nature of the game they play - so if Mayo perform at all then O'Connor is going to score a bucket load, regardless of how well or poorly he plays.

As for Tyrone's issue with frees, we don't have an issue with the handy 21 yard frees in front of the posts, we have plenty of players who can tap those over with their eyes closed. We have had an issue for a number of years with the long range frees, I don't think O'Connor really fares an awful lot better than our lads in that area though, it can be quite misleading though as I think in terms of proportion of frees, Mayo seem to get much more handy frees closer in to goal than Tyrone do due to the differing styles of play of both sides.

Rather than getting overly sensitive I think you need to be looking more objectively at what the criticisms proffered up are actually saying. Nobody is criticising him for scoring 21 yard frees but when his scoring record over the past number of years is put forward, it has to be noted that a lot of the scores he gets are from handy frees in front of the posts that he does little in terms of winning but he will be the guys who gets the plaudits for the scores. It's a fair comment and just because O'Connor regularly tops the scoring charts it doesn't mean he shouldn't be in the line of criticisms.

If you want to win an All Ireland and you've been mightily close to in recent years, you have got to look at the starting players and the little margins they can improve upon to win it. If I look across the Mayo starting XV and look at what players possibly need to be doing more, the two that would have jumped out at me in recent years are Aidan O'Shea and Cillian O'Connor.

A lot in that but I'll just focus on the 1st paragraph. Anyone who watched that game in 2016 would have seen the difference between Cillian and the Tyrone forwards, from play and frees. It's all a matter of opinion, but I'd say you're in the minority if you don't think Cillian is a fair bit better than them.

I'd also disagree with your claim that Cillian gets brilliant service playing for mayo. The problem with our forward play over the last few years is that we don't kick it in enough. Too many players (Vaughan, SOS, Parsons etc) just put the head down and carry the ball into traffic. Almost impossible for inside forwards to play well in that situation. Put Cillian in the Dublin team or possibly Kerry and his scores from play would have been much higher.

Ball Hopper

What has helped COC and Mike Sheehy is the fact they were freetakers from day 1 of their respective inter-county careers.  Gooch had Mike Frank Russell and Dara O'Cinneide taking close-in frees for Kerry early in his career and Bryan Sheehan taking medium to long range ones (not that Gooch would ever be taking any frees with a bit of distance in them).


Angelo

Quote from: MayoBuck on April 05, 2019, 11:42:23 PM
Quote from: Angelo on April 05, 2019, 10:59:52 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on April 05, 2019, 10:11:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on April 05, 2019, 08:01:56 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018

1  Colm Cooper  Kerry  23-283  352  85 games  2002-2017  4.1 
Cillian O'Connor  Mayo  23-272  341  48 games  2011-  7.1 
3  Mikey Sheehy  Kerry  29-205  292  49 games  1973-1988  6.0 
4  John Doyle  Kildare  8-260  284  67 games  1999-2014  4.2 
5  Padraig Joyce  Galway  12-229  265  66 games  1997-2012  4.0 
6   Bernard Brogan  Dublin  21-196  259  58 games  2006-  4.5 
7  Paddy Bradley  Derry  17-202  253  44 games  1999-2012  5.8 
8  Steven McDonnell  Armagh  18-197  251  67 games  1999-2011  3.7 
9   Maurice Fitzgerald  Kerry  12-205  241  45 games  1988-2001  5.4 
10  Brian Stafford  Meath  9-206  233  41 games  1986-1995  5.7 
11  Oisin McConville  Armagh  11-197  230  52 games  1994-2008  4.4 
12  Jimmy Keaveney  Dublin  15-182  227  42 games  1964-1980  5.4 
13  Peter Canavan  Tyrone  9-192  219  58 games  1989-2005  3.8 
14  Conor McManus  Monaghan  7-204  225  50 games  2007-  4.5 
15  Sean Cavanagh  Tyrone  9-181  208  89 games  2002-2017  2.3 
16  Colin Corkery  Cork  5-182  197  32 games  1993-2004  6.2 
17  Ross Munnelly  Laois  6-168  186  70 games  2003-  2.7 
18  Dean Rock  Dublin  8-173  197  36 games  2013-  5.4 
19  Dara O'Cinneide  Kerry  11-149  182  54 games  1995-2005  3.4 
20  Matt Connor  Offaly  13-142  181  26 games  1978-1984  7.0 
21  Pat Spillane  Kerry  19-123  180  56 games  1974-1991  3.2 


I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.

PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.

I don't really understand this logic, O'Connor's scoring rate is phenomenal but when you look a bit behind the statistics, you'd find that a huge proportion of his scores come from dead balls around the 21 yard line.

I put up a graph earlier in the thread of his 2017 scoring tally from frees, he scored 27 points from frees around, inside on around the central area of the 20 metre line. They are gimmees even for an average club free taker.

A lot of people tend to want to argue different things about O'Connor, for me he is not a top level forward and I think pointing at his scoring record is weak because it is boosted enormously by the number of handy frees he converts.

As for Bradley he was a top level forward and was Derry's main man for years, if you marked Paddy Bradley out of a game, Derry weren't going to win and on many occasions teams sacrificed a few players for this and it still didn't work.

You'd swear Cillian is the only person who scores 21 yard frees. Gooch would have scored plenty of them in his day, as does Rock, Shane Walsh, McManus, McBrearty etc these days. Look at Sean O'Shea the last day. Scored 5 frees but missed the 2 most difficult ones he had. Accuracy tends to drop the further away from goal you go.

I didn't want to start naming names but since you brought up Conor McAliskey earlier, do you not remember the 2016 quarter final? Tyrone were every bit as good as us in general play but McAliskey and other Tyrone forwards couldn't score from play and missed several frees. Tyrone would have won the game easily if they had a forward of Cillian's calibre.

Again you're completely missing the point. Tyrone would not have won the game if they had a forward like O'Connor in my opinion. Our problems with frees have been generally we don't have a reliable free taker from long range, I think the stats suggest that O'Connor is fairly hit and miss from that range too. I think we have forwards who offer more from open play than O'Connor does but our style of play means they don't get the kind of service they would do with Mayo. He's a bit like how I would regard McCurry and McAliskey etc, good but not top level.

I brought up McAliskey earlier, I think he's a very good player and an important member of our squad, he was the second top scorer in championship football last season - both overall and from play. I wouldn't say he is a top level forward though, I'd probably have him over O'Connor given the choice as while he may not be as clinical a finisher, his movement is better, he shows for the ball more, has a better left foot and a bit more flair and pace about him. He didn't even get an all star nomination last year so that goes to show that scoring heavily for a county who goes to the end of the summer doesn't really say a lot.

It's lazy analysis to constantly point to the scoring charts when valid criticisms of O'Connor are brought to the fore, the vast bulk of O'Connor's scores would seem to be placed balls inside or around the central area of the 20 metre line on the pitch - they are gimmees for any decent, even average free taker. Mayo will always generate more of these frees than the vast majority of teams with the pace and direct nature of the game they play - so if Mayo perform at all then O'Connor is going to score a bucket load, regardless of how well or poorly he plays.

As for Tyrone's issue with frees, we don't have an issue with the handy 21 yard frees in front of the posts, we have plenty of players who can tap those over with their eyes closed. We have had an issue for a number of years with the long range frees, I don't think O'Connor really fares an awful lot better than our lads in that area though, it can be quite misleading though as I think in terms of proportion of frees, Mayo seem to get much more handy frees closer in to goal than Tyrone do due to the differing styles of play of both sides.

Rather than getting overly sensitive I think you need to be looking more objectively at what the criticisms proffered up are actually saying. Nobody is criticising him for scoring 21 yard frees but when his scoring record over the past number of years is put forward, it has to be noted that a lot of the scores he gets are from handy frees in front of the posts that he does little in terms of winning but he will be the guys who gets the plaudits for the scores. It's a fair comment and just because O'Connor regularly tops the scoring charts it doesn't mean he shouldn't be in the line of criticisms.

If you want to win an All Ireland and you've been mightily close to in recent years, you have got to look at the starting players and the little margins they can improve upon to win it. If I look across the Mayo starting XV and look at what players possibly need to be doing more, the two that would have jumped out at me in recent years are Aidan O'Shea and Cillian O'Connor.

A lot in that but I'll just focus on the 1st paragraph. Anyone who watched that game in 2016 would have seen the difference between Cillian and the Tyrone forwards, from play and frees. It's all a matter of opinion, but I'd say you're in the minority if you don't think Cillian is a fair bit better than them.

I'd also disagree with your claim that Cillian gets brilliant service playing for mayo. The problem with our forward play over the last few years is that we don't kick it in enough. Too many players (Vaughan, SOS, Parsons etc) just put the head down and carry the ball into traffic. Almost impossible for inside forwards to play well in that situation. Put Cillian in the Dublin team or possibly Kerry and his scores from play would have been much higher.

Again I can't agree, look at the amount of ball Andy Moran shows for and wins inside for Mayo, it's night and day compared to O'Connor. O'Connor plays a role for Mayo, he is there for his frees and to finish,  which on the whole he is quite good at. He puts a good defensive shift in from the front as well but he hasn't developed his game from open play since he came into the team. As for playing with Dublin and Kerry, I honestly couldn't see him making their teams to be honest, even Rock who is a better free taker and more dangerous from open play than O'Connor has his place under pressure now as Costello looks like he could take the free taking job over and contributes more from play.

But when it comes back down to it, O'Connor for me is not a top level forward - he is not up there with guys like McManus, McBrearty, Murphy, Comer, Flynn, Mannion, Moran, Geaney, Clifford etc.

The majority of the Mayo starting side would be top level players in their position across the country over the last number of years - you look at guys like Barrett, Higgins, Keegan, Boyle, Durcan, McLoughlin, Diarmuid O'Connor Parsons, Clarke and I feel in that 2/3 years Jason Doherty has really grown into an outstanding intercounty forward.

Where do you put it that Mayo have just fallen short, if you employ introspection on the Mayo team on where they have fallen short then there will be a few of the regulars who will naturally have to come in for scrutiny and criticism.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

Farrandeelin

Let's face it. This is what this thread has turned into.
Inaugural Football Championship Prediction Winner.

moysider

Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 06, 2019, 08:24:45 AM
Let's face it. This is what this thread has turned into.

It was always going to be a pile of shit - even before it homed in on O Connor.
Forget about it.

intoDwest

Only Mikey Sheehy has scored more goals than him, but I suppose all Cillians were from penalties...................this is a wind up I presume?

Angelo

Quote from: intoDwest on April 08, 2019, 09:26:15 AM
Only Mikey Sheehy has scored more goals than him, but I suppose all Cillians were from penalties...................this is a wind up I presume?

He does take penalties for Mayo so presumably they comprise of a fair amount of those goals.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

rosnarun

Quote from: intoDwest on April 08, 2019, 09:26:15 AM
Only Mikey Sheehy has scored more goals than him, but I suppose all Cillians were from penalties...................this is a wind up I presume?
bingo
If you make yourself understood, you're always speaking well. Moliere

larryin89

For such an average forward  he sure as hell gets some attention from the dubs,galways etc etc.

Well done Cillian , we know you're worth 
Walk-in down mchale rd , sun out, summers day , game day . That's all .

GalwayBayBoy

Quote from: larryin89 on April 08, 2019, 06:07:18 PM
For such an average forward  he sure as hell gets some attention from the dubs,galways etc etc.

Probably for all the extra carry on that he's so fond of. That will always put a target on your back.

dublin7

Quote from: larryin89 on April 08, 2019, 06:07:18 PM
For such an average forward  he sure as hell gets some attention from the dubs,galways etc etc.

Well done Cillian , we know you're worth

His elbows have certainly kept the dublin medical team busy over the years. If he was as lethal with his frees as his elbows he'd probably have a couple of All Ireland medals now