The ulster rugby trial

[Asal Mor]

I was veering towards believing the girl until I learned that she'd taken her own top off. Okay she says she was ordered to do it(would a man usually ask a girl politely to take her top off during consensual sex?) but she can't remember who ordered her to do it(imo if she'd been told to do it in a threatening way she'd remember). She also claimed that she "froze" when asked why she didn't cry out for help, but when asked/told to take her top off she did. That doesn't add up to me. Imo it looks like regret, not rape,  at this stage. The police interviews should be revealing though.

Don't lie Asal, you were never veering towards believing the victim in a rape case.

Some people here seem to think they can get away with hiding their predjuices behind the most perfunctory public attempts to pretend they gave the victim a chance. We're not falling for it.

We??

Who is this 'we' you speak of??!!

He's held in such high esteem here that "we" could be any number of people who have asked him to speak on their behalves.

[Asal Mor]

I was veering towards believing the girl until I learned that she'd taken her own top off. Okay she says she was ordered to do it(would a man usually ask a girl politely to take her top off during consensual sex?) but she can't remember who ordered her to do it(imo if she'd been told to do it in a threatening way she'd remember). She also claimed that she "froze" when asked why she didn't cry out for help, but when asked/told to take her top off she did. That doesn't add up to me. Imo it looks like regret, not rape,  at this stage. The police interviews should be revealing though.

Would you not agree its possible your veering that way because you have a predetermined view of what rape is and what it looks like?  The vast majority of rapes are completely different from what we would see in a film.

Don't think so Mucker. I can accept that a girl could freeze and not struggle and my earlier posts on the thread would show I was inclined to believe her, but taking off her own top  because she was "ordered to" and yet being unable to recall which man ordered her to do so is something that doesn't add up to me at all.

If for example she had said "Olding ordered me to take my top off and I felt he was going to hurt me if I didn't" I could accept that, but to not remember and expect the jury to still accept the claim that she had done it due to intimidation and hadn't done so willingly is a huge stretch.

[GetOverTheBar]

Was the girl questioned on how her top came to be off? It seems inconsistent with  "everything about me was saying no physically". Would her top not have to have been ripped off in that case?

She's said that she took it off herself

She said she was ordered to take it off.

MR2 and GetOverTheBar not doing themselves any favours I see.

Please forgive me, I do strive for attention....on an internet message board.

Christ almighty.

[general_lee]

I was veering towards believing the girl until I learned that she'd taken her own top off. Okay she says she was ordered to do it(would a man usually ask a girl politely to take her top off during consensual sex?) but she can't remember who ordered her to do it(imo if she'd been told to do it in a threatening way she'd remember). She also claimed that she "froze" when asked why she didn't cry out for help, but when asked/told to take her top off she did. That doesn't add up to me. Imo it looks like regret, not rape,  at this stage. The police interviews should be revealing though.

Would you not agree its possible your veering that way because you have a predetermined view of what rape is and what it looks like?  The vast majority of rapes are completely different from what we would see in a film.

Don't think so Mucker. I can accept that a girl could freeze and not struggle and my earlier posts on the thread would show I was inclined to believe her, but taking off her own top  because she was "ordered to" and yet being unable to recall which man ordered her to do so is something that doesn't add up to me at all.

If for example she had said "Olding ordered me to take my top off and I felt he was going to hurt me if I didn't" I could accept that, but to not remember and expect the jury to still accept the claim that she had done it due to intimidation and hadn't done so willingly is a huge stretch.

Why, they could have been lying in the dark and they probably have the same Malowne rowd accent? Could be hard to work out which one said it?

[Asal Mor]

Was the light off? I assumed it was on since the girl who peeked in saw everything.

She didn't say she couldn't tell. She said she couldn't recall.

[Milltown Row2]

Was the girl questioned on how her top came to be off? It seems inconsistent with  "everything about me was saying no physically". Would her top not have to have been ripped off in that case?

She's said that she took it off herself

She said she was ordered to take it off.

MR2 and GetOverTheBar not doing themselves any favours I see.

Please forgive me, I do strive for attention....on an internet message board.

Christ almighty.

Do you not realise that this site is a barometer to how popular you are? Hmm

[general_lee]

Was the light off? I assumed it was on since the girl who peeked in saw everything.

She didn't say she couldn't tell. She said she couldn't recall.

I'm not sure, it could have been. It hasn't said anywhere has it? These are the details that make it difficult to tell what went on that night. The hall light could have lit up the room when opened, the bed could have been right in front of the door therefore giving the witness a full view of events even with the light off. Or the light could have been on. She could have kept her eyes closed, could have been in auto pilot mode and just did what she was told.

[Milltown Row2]

Jesus so many things! So impossible to work out. So with all that uncertainty do you think they did it and a jury will?

[HiMucker]

I was veering towards believing the girl until I learned that she'd taken her own top off. Okay she says she was ordered to do it(would a man usually ask a girl politely to take her top off during consensual sex?) but she can't remember who ordered her to do it(imo if she'd been told to do it in a threatening way she'd remember). She also claimed that she "froze" when asked why she didn't cry out for help, but when asked/told to take her top off she did. That doesn't add up to me. Imo it looks like regret, not rape,  at this stage. The police interviews should be revealing though.

Would you not agree its possible your veering that way because you have a predetermined view of what rape is and what it looks like?  The vast majority of rapes are completely different from what we would see in a film.

Don't think so Mucker. I can accept that a girl could freeze and not struggle and my earlier posts on the thread would show I was inclined to believe her, but taking off her own top  because she was "ordered to" and yet being unable to recall which man ordered her to do so is something that doesn't add up to me at all.

If for example she had said "Olding ordered me to take my top off and I felt he was going to hurt me if I didn't" I could accept that, but to not remember and expect the jury to still accept the claim that she had done it due to intimidation and hadn't done so willingly is a huge stretch.

I would accept that there is a possibility you are right.  I would still doubt it though given the girls consistent evidence on the stand, but nevertheless that will be a factor for the jury.  I just find it odd that someone could be so adamant that the act of taking her top off, would determine if a rape took place or hadn't.  Given the nature of a lot of rapes, ie nonviolent, victim compliant.

[magpie seanie]

I was veering towards believing the girl until I learned that she'd taken her own top off. Okay she says she was ordered to do it(would a man usually ask a girl politely to take her top off during consensual sex?) but she can't remember who ordered her to do it(imo if she'd been told to do it in a threatening way she'd remember). She also claimed that she "froze" when asked why she didn't cry out for help, but when asked/told to take her top off she did. That doesn't add up to me. Imo it looks like regret, not rape,  at this stage. The police interviews should be revealing though.

Would you not agree its possible your veering that way because you have a predetermined view of what rape is and what it looks like?  The vast majority of rapes are completely different from what we would see in a film.

Don't think so Mucker. I can accept that a girl could freeze and not struggle and my earlier posts on the thread would show I was inclined to believe her, but taking off her own top  because she was "ordered to" and yet being unable to recall which man ordered her to do so is something that doesn't add up to me at all.

If for example she had said "Olding ordered me to take my top off and I felt he was going to hurt me if I didn't" I could accept that, but to not remember and expect the jury to still accept the claim that she had done it due to intimidation and hadn't done so willingly is a huge stretch.

I would accept that there is a possibility you are right.  I would still doubt it though given the girls consistent evidence on the stand, but nevertheless that will be a factor for the jury.  I just find it odd that someone could be so adamant that the act of taking her top off, would determine if a rape took place or hadn't. Given the nature of a lot of rapes, ie nonviolent, victim compliant.

Most lads can't grasp that concept.

[Asal Mor]

Mucker it's not just the fact that she took her top off. It's that she wants the jury to believe she did it under intimidation but can't remember who told her to take it off. I've said that 2 or 3 times already though and you seem to be deliberately misrepresenting what I said to suit your point.

Seanie, you're getting as bad as Syf for the condescending, self-righteous remarks and it seems to be a theme with one side of the argument in this thread.

[Asal Mor]

She has at various times said "everything about me was saying no physically" and that she "froze" but yet took off her top when "ordered to" but can't remember who ordered her. There's huge inconsistency there and to me it points to her going along with and seeming outwardly to be a willing participant while a voice in her head was saying "I don't want to be doing this". I wouldn't convict someone of rape from what I've heard. That's just my opinion and I'm able to express it without being self-righteous or making snide remarks aimed at others.

[Milltown Row2]

MS is just a grumpy auld f**ker!!

[HiMucker]

Mucker it's not just the fact that she took her top off. It's that she wants the jury to believe she did it under intimidation but can't remember who told her to take it off. I've said that 2 or 3 times already though and you seem to be deliberately misrepresenting what I said to suit your point.

Seanie, you're getting as bad as Syf for the condescending, self-righteous remarks and it seems to be a theme with one side of the argument in this thread.

Apologies Asal Mor, I wasn't trying to misrepresent you.  I just don't find the claim that she cant remember who told her to, as that important.  Again, it will be up to the jury to determine how much weight they put in that, but I cant imagine someone with all the relevant information and evidence placing much on it.

[AQMP]

Mucker it's not just the fact that she took her top off. It's that she wants the jury to believe she did it under intimidation but can't remember who told her to take it off. I've said that 2 or 3 times already though and you seem to be deliberately misrepresenting what I said to suit your point.

Seanie, you're getting as bad as Syf for the condescending, self-righteous remarks and it seems to be a theme with one side of the argument in this thread.

The issue for the jury should be that no matter who "told" her to take off her top or whether she took it off voluntarily, the fact that she took off her top does not mean that she was consenting to have sex.  To make it more complex, as someone else posted, consent can be given and then withdrawn at any time.  I wouldn't fancy being a juror on this one.