Russian passenger plane crashes over Egypt

[Hereiam]

Looking like this plane was shot down or else it was a bomb on board. Russia will show no mercy to whoever done this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34697416

[pullhard]

I think it needs to be debated in order to rule it out.   

[muppet]

Looking like this plane was shot down or else it was a bomb on board. Russia will show no mercy to whoever done this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34697416

That is an airline official pointing the finger away from the airline.

You have an investigation featuring the Russians, the Egyptians and the Irish Aviation Authority.

This will take a long time and may tell us very little.

This happened two years ago and there is still no final report: http://www.ibtimes.com/tatarstan-airlines-crash-emblematic-russias-poor-aviation-safety-record-1473544

Russia's safety record is shocking and to my mind would be the first place I would go looking.

[Kursk]

jeez, Muppet...you are not going all "careful now lads" on us are you ? We are relying on your aviation expertise !

So what could cause a jet with circa 250 people on board to just disappear without a trace, just as it reaches it's cruising level?

1) Catastrophic mechanical failure: there are reports on PPRUNE that this aircraft had a minor collision on the ground a few years ago causing damage to the wing tip. I would think it is very unlikely to be a factor 2 years later. Modern aircraft just don't have this type of failure. AF447 started with major failures to the cockpit instruments but that was caused by atrocious weather and a poor response from the co-pilots, weather doesn't seem to be a factor here.

2) A bomb: The fact that it was just reaching it's cruise level makes this a possibility for me. Before all of the recent developments in electronics, bomb makers used to use a type of barometer to detonate bombs on aircraft. As the cabin pressure climbs, and the difference between pressure inside the cain and outside increases, the barometer would measure this and aim to detonate at high altitude to give the bomb the opportunity to do maximum damage. Even with modern electronics, the most effective time for a bomb on board is while the aircraft is pressurised to the maximum, which starts as you reach your cruising level, so whatever device is used this would be the optimum time to detonate a bomb.

[muppet]

jeez, Muppet...you are not going all "careful now lads" on us are you ? We are relying on your aviation expertise !

So what could cause a jet with circa 250 people on board to just disappear without a trace, just as it reaches it's cruising level?

1) Catastrophic mechanical failure: there are reports on PPRUNE that this aircraft had a minor collision on the ground a few years ago causing damage to the wing tip. I would think it is very unlikely to be a factor 2 years later. Modern aircraft just don't have this type of failure. AF447 started with major failures to the cockpit instruments but that was caused by atrocious weather and a poor response from the co-pilots, weather doesn't seem to be a factor here.

2) A bomb: The fact that it was just reaching it's cruise level makes this a possibility for me. Before all of the recent developments in electronics, bomb makers used to use a type of barometer to detonate bombs on aircraft. As the cabin pressure climbs, and the difference between pressure inside the cain and outside increases, the barometer would measure this and aim to detonate at high altitude to give the bomb the opportunity to do maximum damage. Even with modern electronics, the most effective time for a bomb on board is while the aircraft is pressurised to the maximum, which starts as you reach your cruising level, so whatever device is used this would be the optimum time to detonate a bomb.

That post could just as easily be written for this latest accident, except this latest one hadn't quite reached their cruising level.

I presume you took that from the Malaysian crash thread, but didn't refer to any of my other posts.

To my mind, this one more resembles the AirAsia crash, rather than the Malaysian, as they found the wreckage immediately.

Or maybe it was it caused by a Western Hegemony?

[T Fearon]

Muppet are you also an aviation expert as well as a Catholic Cleric Child Abuse expert?

[muppet]

Muppet are you also an aviation expert as well as a Catholic Cleric Child Abuse expert?

You are the child abuse expert Tony.

[Kursk]

jeez, Muppet...you are not going all "careful now lads" on us are you ? We are relying on your aviation expertise !

So what could cause a jet with circa 250 people on board to just disappear without a trace, just as it reaches it's cruising level?

1) Catastrophic mechanical failure: there are reports on PPRUNE that this aircraft had a minor collision on the ground a few years ago causing damage to the wing tip. I would think it is very unlikely to be a factor 2 years later. Modern aircraft just don't have this type of failure. AF447 started with major failures to the cockpit instruments but that was caused by atrocious weather and a poor response from the co-pilots, weather doesn't seem to be a factor here.

2) A bomb: The fact that it was just reaching it's cruise level makes this a possibility for me. Before all of the recent developments in electronics, bomb makers used to use a type of barometer to detonate bombs on aircraft. As the cabin pressure climbs, and the difference between pressure inside the cain and outside increases, the barometer would measure this and aim to detonate at high altitude to give the bomb the opportunity to do maximum damage. Even with modern electronics, the most effective time for a bomb on board is while the aircraft is pressurised to the maximum, which starts as you reach your cruising level, so whatever device is used this would be the optimum time to detonate a bomb.

That post could just as easily be written for this latest accident, except this latest one hadn't quite reached their cruising level.

I presume you took that from the Malaysian crash thread, but didn't refer to any of my other posts.

To my mind, this one more resembles the AirAsia crash, rather than the Malaysian, as they found the wreckage immediately.

Or maybe it was it caused by a Western Hegemony?

well, now that you mention it, there was that Iran Air flight........

[SHEEDY]

The Russian plane that crashed in Egypt at the weekend "may well have been brought down by an explosive device", Downing Street has said.
All flights between the UK and Sharm el-Sheikh have been suspended on Wednesday evening as UK experts assess security at the Egyptian airport.
Number 10 said flights had been delayed as a "precautionary measure" after "more information has come to light".
Russian Airbus 321 crashed on Saturday, killing all 224 people on board.
"We would underline that this is a precautionary step and we are working closely with the airlines on this approach," a Number 10 spokesman said.
Aviation experts have travelled to Egypt to make an assessment of the security arrangements at the Egyptian airport and expect to complete an investigation tonight.
Their findings will be considered in a meeting of the government's Cobra emergency committee, chaired by Prime Minister David Cameron, which is under way.
Egypt's President Sisi is currently in the UK, and is due to meet the prime minister on Thursday. They spoke on Tuesday before Downing Street released its statement.
'An explosive device'
Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said the delays would allow UK experts time to make sure "the right security measures are in place".
"We can not categorically say why the Russia jet crashed but we have become concerned that the plane may well have been brought down as a result of an explosive device," he said.

[muppet]

'Explosive device' could be something on board as well as something fired at the aircraft.

If it was something on board the next question would be: was it malicious or accidental?

Obviously they have found evidence of something very sudden, maybe on the voice recorder of the FDR. They may also be able, from looking at the wreckage, be able to guess where on board the sudden event began. For example, if they suspect an explosion in the rear cargo hold, they might suspend flights until they can rule out a bomb. Of course they may clear evidence of a bomb and are unwilling to comment straight away.

Under the usual protocols, they must issue a preliminary report at around 30 days. Hopefully we know more before then.

[muppet]

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/04/africa/russian-plane-crash-egypt-sinai/

(CNN)[Breaking news alert, posted at 3:15 p.m. ET Wednesday]

The latest U.S. intelligence suggests that the crash of Metrojet Flight 9268 was most likely caused by a bomb on the plane planted by ISIS or an ISIS affiliate, according to a U.S. official familiar with the matter. The official stressed that there has not been a formal conclusion reached by the U.S. intelligence community. "There is a definite feeling it was an explosive device planted in luggage or somewhere on the plane," the official told CNN's Barbara Starr.

The assessment was reached, the official said, by looking back at intelligence reports that had been gathered before Saturday's plane crash and intelligence gathered since then. The United States did not have credible or verified intelligence of a specific threat prior to the crash, however, the official said, prior to the incident, "there had been additional activity in Sinai that had caught our attention."

Another U.S. official said the intelligence regarding ISIS is in part based on monitoring of internal messages of the terrorist group. Those messages are separate from public ISIS claims of responsibility, that official said.


Not sure why the Brits are announcing this when the investigation is being carried out by the Irish, Russians and Egyptians.

[trileacman]

This is all political bullshit. It suits the American and British narrative to suggest that it was ISIS as it puts pressure on Russia to engage them in Syria and not the Free Syria army they are currently bombing.

Not that I'm rubbishing the suggestion but it's equally as likely that the West will warp the truth to suit themselves as quick as the Russians will do it. That's what all this breaking news/leaks/intelligence info is really about. You didn't see the Brits or Langley wading in with their two cents when the Malaysia flight disappeared as readily or as staunchly as this.

When you sit back and look at it Russia and the West are really just two sides of the same coin, both as morally corrupt as the other, where the only real objective either has is the humiliation of the opposing side.

[muppet]

This is all political bullshit. It suits the American and British narrative to suggest that it was ISIS as it puts pressure on Russia to engage them in Syria and not the Free Syria army they are currently bombing.

Not that I'm rubbishing the suggestion but it's equally as likely that the West will warp the truth to suit themselves as quick as the Russians will do it. That's what all this breaking news/leaks/intelligence info is really about. You didn't see the Brits or Langley wading in with their two cents when the Malaysia flight disappeared as readily or as staunchly as this.

When you sit back and look at it Russia and the West are really just two sides of the same coin, both as morally corrupt as the other, where the only real objective either has is the humiliation of the opposing side.

It suits the Russians to say it was bomb too though. The last thing they want is for Russian incompetence to be the cause of Russian deaths.

It doesn't suit the Egyptians for it to be a bomb, as it will seriously harm their tourist industry. But even yesterday, I met a fella who said to me "Sharm el-Sheikh will be dirt cheap now so I might go". So who knows what effect it will have.

[trileacman]

This is all political bullshit. It suits the American and British narrative to suggest that it was ISIS as it puts pressure on Russia to engage them in Syria and not the Free Syria army they are currently bombing.

Not that I'm rubbishing the suggestion but it's equally as likely that the West will warp the truth to suit themselves as quick as the Russians will do it. That's what all this breaking news/leaks/intelligence info is really about. You didn't see the Brits or Langley wading in with their two cents when the Malaysia flight disappeared as readily or as staunchly as this.

When you sit back and look at it Russia and the West are really just two sides of the same coin, both as morally corrupt as the other, where the only real objective either has is the humiliation of the opposing side.

It suits the Russians to say it was bomb too though. The last thing they want is for Russian incompetence to be the cause of Russian deaths.

It doesn't suit the Egyptians for it to be a bomb, as it will seriously harm their tourist industry. But even yesterday, I met a fella who said to me "Sharm el-Sheikh will be dirt cheap now so I might go". So who knows what effect it will have.

Maybe so. My frustration is just at this Cold War shadow games bullshit that's going forth as international diplomacy now. God forbid that several of the worlds most powerful nations would divert all the effort and resources that they currently expend trying to embarrass each other and do something useful for the world like feed the starving or save the rainforest.

[muppet]

By now I would have expected Cameron to back up his claim from last night that: "We cannot be certain that the Russian airliner was brought down by a terrorist bomb, but it looks increasingly likely that that was the case,"

Worse than that, the Egyptian President happens to be in London on an official visit and they knew nothing about Cameron's information until he announced it. He still has offered no evidence for his claim.

Egypt & Russia, who are actually involved in the investigation, both seem to disagree with him today: Russia said such theories were "speculation", while Egypt said there was "no evidence" yet to support them.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34732213

It isn't clear where Cameron got his info, but it doesn't appear to be from the investigation. So you would have to guess it was from an  intelligence source. The UK intelligence people brought us Saddam's Weapons of Mass Production in the past. If Cameron is proven wrong, or that he jumped the gun, he will look monumentally stupid, especially as thousands of Brits are now stranded in Egypt indefinitely as a result of his claim.

Having said that, how many died from Blair's claim regarding Hussain, and no one seems to mind?