Is the League of Ireland a victim of bad marketing?

[AZOffaly]

The short answer is no, marketing isn't going to revive the League of Ireland. I say 'revive' because once upon a time there were Biblical crowds at domestic soccer. My uncle from Cork, who obsesses about Liverpool, once told me how he used travel to see Waterford play in Kilcohan Park in the 60's. It didn't matter who they were playing, he wanted to get a fix of live sport and that was the only way of doing so at the time (he has no interest in Gaelic games). I think his experience says a lot about the way we consume sport. I remember reading an article in the Irish Times a number of years back about how a five-figure crowd attended an edition of the Morton Mile in Santry in the 60's. I was talking about this to another uncle and he said "I was there". He had travelled all the way to north county Dublin from Waterford because he wanted to see Herb Elliott. Now you can see the Herb Elliotts of this world on television all the time. You can even get a cheap flight to Brussels for a Diamond League meet if you are so inclined. You often see League of Ireland diehards bemoaning a nation of event junkies, and while such complaints usually involve blaming the GAA for all their woes it's easy to see their point.

That explains everything except why Irish soccer fans, when they do attend games, choose to do so in England and Scotland, at great expense.

Myriad reasons for that Hardy. Hype is a big part, which I know you love, but there were people going to matches in England before Sky Sports hyped up every Sunday as a Super Sunday Spectacular. The standard is good, the players are recognised as top class (note I didn't say World Class), the clubs are huge, the product is better, the atmosphere is excellent and it's an 'event'. Most people are event junkies at the back of it all, and going to Anfield or Old Trafford (or our fair weather fans in the GAA - Croker) is an event. Going to Terryland to see Galway is not an event.

[AZOffaly]

It hardly helped that traditionally the LOI and the FAI were separate bodies and wouldn't have always seen eye to eye.

A huge problem is the user experience. Most of the stadiums I'm familiar with are fairly decrepit. It wouldn't be a family day out with the crowds are male dominated and perhaps a little bit industrial with the banter. I'd say there are a section of casual soccer people who are turned off by the bitterness of some of the hardcore LOI fans - the anti-Premier League stuff.

Strip away all the trappings, the actual spectacle on the field is not massively different. Obviously there is a lesser standard of player, but you're getting roughly the same dose of goals, chances, misses. If West Ham played Crystal Palace in an empty field and then Drogheda played Dundalk, would the London derby be miles more enjoyable?
There'll be plenty of woeful games in the World Cup in a month's time involving the best players in the world.

But the problem is the public know they're not watching something meaningful when they go to LOI games. It's a periphery league in a periphery country where the periphery players produced by the country participate in.

First bit in bold, yes I think it would be better. West Ham and Crystal Palace are two teams stacked with internationals and foreign players. (and Andy Carroll). Drogheda and Dundalk are not. There are some good players in the League of Ireland, but not enough of them. The teams also try to play football a bit, in the main, but they are just not very good at it. I think if your question was Drogheda v Dundalk versus Port Vale v MK Dons, the answer might be a lot closer.

Second bit I agree with to a certain extent. The feeling of the LOI is that it is either a league for 'rejects' who couldn't make it in England or Scotland, or young lads who are trying to get there. It's like a feeder league for the big brother over the pond, and is regarded as such.

I

Replace "LOI" with "All-Ireland Championship" and "England and Scotland" with "The GAA Premiership" and you have a picture of football when we go professional.

OK, taking the alarmist hyperbole about 'when' we go professional, I think you are right. That would happen but not to the All Ireland, to the club scene. In fact it already has in some sense, when you look at Donegal. If the GAA separate County from Club, then Club players will have a very similar status to LOI players vis a vis the Premiership. However, one thing that's different is that even in that case, the Club player will still be playing for his local club, representing the man in the street, and playing with lads he grew up with.

[deiseach]

The short answer is no, marketing isn't going to revive the League of Ireland. I say 'revive' because once upon a time there were Biblical crowds at domestic soccer. My uncle from Cork, who obsesses about Liverpool, once told me how he used travel to see Waterford play in Kilcohan Park in the 60's. It didn't matter who they were playing, he wanted to get a fix of live sport and that was the only way of doing so at the time (he has no interest in Gaelic games). I think his experience says a lot about the way we consume sport. I remember reading an article in the Irish Times a number of years back about how a five-figure crowd attended an edition of the Morton Mile in Santry in the 60's. I was talking about this to another uncle and he said "I was there". He had travelled all the way to north county Dublin from Waterford because he wanted to see Herb Elliott. Now you can see the Herb Elliotts of this world on television all the time. You can even get a cheap flight to Brussels for a Diamond League meet if you are so inclined. You often see League of Ireland diehards bemoaning a nation of event junkies, and while such complaints usually involve blaming the GAA for all their woes it's easy to see their point.

That explains everything except why Irish soccer fans, when they do attend games, choose to do so in England and Scotland, at great expense.

I know what you mean. I wouldn't call myself an 'Irish soccer fan', yet I go to more League of Ireland games each year than 99% of the Boyz in Gray-uhn. Although going to soccer games 'cross-channel' isn't that expensive. Most of the thousands who go every weekend only do it a couple of times a year. They book cheap flights, stay in dingy accommodation, and have a session while they're at it.

[Hardy]

It hardly helped that traditionally the LOI and the FAI were separate bodies and wouldn't have always seen eye to eye.

A huge problem is the user experience. Most of the stadiums I'm familiar with are fairly decrepit. It wouldn't be a family day out with the crowds are male dominated and perhaps a little bit industrial with the banter. I'd say there are a section of casual soccer people who are turned off by the bitterness of some of the hardcore LOI fans - the anti-Premier League stuff.

Strip away all the trappings, the actual spectacle on the field is not massively different. Obviously there is a lesser standard of player, but you're getting roughly the same dose of goals, chances, misses. If West Ham played Crystal Palace in an empty field and then Drogheda played Dundalk, would the London derby be miles more enjoyable?
There'll be plenty of woeful games in the World Cup in a month's time involving the best players in the world.

But the problem is the public know they're not watching something meaningful when they go to LOI games. It's a periphery league in a periphery country where the periphery players produced by the country participate in.

First bit in bold, yes I think it would be better. West Ham and Crystal Palace are two teams stacked with internationals and foreign players. (and Andy Carroll). Drogheda and Dundalk are not. There are some good players in the League of Ireland, but not enough of them. The teams also try to play football a bit, in the main, but they are just not very good at it. I think if your question was Drogheda v Dundalk versus Port Vale v MK Dons, the answer might be a lot closer.

Second bit I agree with to a certain extent. The feeling of the LOI is that it is either a league for 'rejects' who couldn't make it in England or Scotland, or young lads who are trying to get there. It's like a feeder league for the big brother over the pond, and is regarded as such.

I

Replace "LOI" with "All-Ireland Championship" and "England and Scotland" with "The GAA Premiership" and you have a picture of football when we go professional.

OK, taking the alarmist hyperbole about 'when' we go professional, I think you are right. That would happen but not to the All Ireland, to the club scene. In fact it already has in some sense, when you look at Donegal. If the GAA separate County from Club, then Club players will have a very similar status to LOI players vis a vis the Premiership. However, one thing that's different is that even in that case, the Club player will still be playing for his local club, representing the man in the street, and playing with lads he grew up with.

  "Alarmist hyperbole" is quite a role for a little word like "when" to undertake. I prefer "rhetorical device".


Seriously, I disagree that we're talking about separation of club and county in the professional scenario. They're already separated. Given that it's pretty much universally accepted that we couldn't sustain a professional or semi-professional setup with the current championship structure, the situation I envisage is the creation of a small number of professional franchises. This I'm calling "The GAA Premiership", funded by sponsorship and Pay TV.


The "All-Ireland Championship" I'm calling the residual, old-fashioned competition, that will (possibly, just about) survive as a three-men-and-a-dog relic of what the Championship used to be.

[deiseach]

Here's a question for those of you not living in or near a garrison town. Who would someone from Offaly or Meath (for example) support in the League of Ireland?

[Hardy]

Here's a question for those of you not living in or near a garrison town. Who would someone from Offaly or Meath (for example) support in the League of Ireland?

I used to support (I suppose, or at least take an interest in) Drogheda and go to the odd game when I lived there. When I was a student in Dublin, and later when I lived in Limerick, I'd go to the odd LOI match no matter who was playing, just for the live sport. My move to Cork more or less coincided with my loss of interest in soccer and I haven't been to a game in the twenty-odd years I've been here. I think I would go again to LOI matches if (my PERCEPTION of) the whole crowd atmosphere wasn't some kind of cheap knock-off of the worst aspects of British soccer and the antics on the field a carbon copy of all the stuff I've grown to hate about the sport.

[Bord na Mona man]

It hardly helped that traditionally the LOI and the FAI were separate bodies and wouldn't have always seen eye to eye.

A huge problem is the user experience. Most of the stadiums I'm familiar with are fairly decrepit. It wouldn't be a family day out with the crowds are male dominated and perhaps a little bit industrial with the banter. I'd say there are a section of casual soccer people who are turned off by the bitterness of some of the hardcore LOI fans - the anti-Premier League stuff.

Strip away all the trappings, the actual spectacle on the field is not massively different. Obviously there is a lesser standard of player, but you're getting roughly the same dose of goals, chances, misses. If West Ham played Crystal Palace in an empty field and then Drogheda played Dundalk, would the London derby be miles more enjoyable?
There'll be plenty of woeful games in the World Cup in a month's time involving the best players in the world.

But the problem is the public know they're not watching something meaningful when they go to LOI games. It's a periphery league in a periphery country where the periphery players produced by the country participate in.

First bit in bold, yes I think it would be better. West Ham and Crystal Palace are two teams stacked with internationals and foreign players. (and Andy Carroll). Drogheda and Dundalk are not. There are some good players in the League of Ireland, but not enough of them. The teams also try to play football a bit, in the main, but they are just not very good at it. I think if your question was Drogheda v Dundalk versus Port Vale v MK Dons, the answer might be a lot closer.

Second bit I agree with to a certain extent. The feeling of the LOI is that it is either a league for 'rejects' who couldn't make it in England or Scotland, or young lads who are trying to get there. It's like a feeder league for the big brother over the pond, and is regarded as such.

I

Of course, but the higher class of players don't serve up a better spectacle. They'll do everything that bit better, but the game will have roughly the same amount of goals, chances, mistakes, misses, oohs and aaahs.
If it was a complete blind taste and you didn't who the 4 teams were, you would obviously appreciate the better execution of the skills by the EPL players but the experience of watching either game wouldn't be poles apart.

The problem is that people know the context of what they're watching rather than specifically having a problem with what they're watching. So long as that perception is there, I can't see the LOI making significant inroads.

[AZOffaly]

Here's a question for those of you not living in or near a garrison town. Who would someone from Offaly or Meath (for example) support in the League of Ireland?

Athlone Town was the team we looked out for in the old days. I I could never understand how all the players, and even the fans(!) seemed to have Dublin accents (Come on da towennn).

Since I moved to the mid-west, it would basically be Limerick results I'd look out for, and even go to see, but I wouldn't call myself a fan. As I said in Dublin at weekends, or at work overnights, I've gone to see Bohs, Shels, Rovers and even Bray Wanderers!

[Billys Boots]

However, one thing that's different is that even in that case, the Club player will still be playing for his local club, representing the man in the street, and playing with lads he grew up with.

That's how they grew the game as a spectacle in Engerland between the wars - you can see where this is going ...

[thewobbler]

Professional soccer in Ireland really is an odd thing.

Given the shared language, proximity to and symbiotic ties with English soccer for Irish people, it will never be possible for any Irish football league - regardless of investment and/or marketing - to be anything other better than a second tier league; a step down or a stepping stone for players, and by osmosis, for spectators too.

But there are enough people emotionally invested in Irish senior soccer, and enough marketeers looking for ways to connect to people, that every few years it will continue to get a reload, a relaunch, an update. A short term buzz before rather quickly returning to the second-tier profile it actually deserves.

Perhaps a bigger problem that league clubs face is that unless they enjoy a sustained time in the national attention, the revenues will never accrue to invest in facilities. It's a proper catch-22, for without upgrading they'll be left behind, and probably distance themselves further from key markets of families and corporates,  Yet they can't afford or justify significant upgrades based on current projections. There is no government that could justify bailing out a system that has no financial future, and negligible community value. As such, I reckon the majority of clubs are basically on a slow death. It might be another 20 years, but most of them will have to go.

[AZOffaly]

However, one thing that's different is that even in that case, the Club player will still be playing for his local club, representing the man in the street, and playing with lads he grew up with.

That's how they grew the game as a spectacle in Engerland between the wars - you can see where this is going ...

Yes, but I'm talking about after the professional split. The Club game would be a feeder, albeit based on local loyalties and community. A bit like club cricket in England probably. Once you 'make it' you have to leave your club, and you play for the professional county team, or regional franchise.

I can't see it happening, I don't think we can support it, but if it did happen, I agree with Hardy. The Club game would basically be viewed like the LOI is relative to the Premier League.

[Billys Boots]

Professional soccer in Ireland really is an odd thing.

Given the shared language, proximity to and symbiotic ties with English soccer for Irish people, it will never be possible for any Irish football league - regardless of investment and/or marketing - to be anything other better than a second tier league; a step down or a stepping stone for players, and by osmosis, for spectators too.

But there are enough people emotionally invested in Irish senior soccer, and enough marketeers looking for ways to connect to people, that every few years it will continue to get a reload, a relaunch, an update. A short term buzz before rather quickly returning to the second-tier profile it actually deserves.

Perhaps a bigger problem that league clubs face is that unless they enjoy a sustained time in the national attention, the revenues will never accrue to invest in facilities. It's a proper catch-22, for without upgrading they'll be left behind, and probably distance themselves further from key markets of families and corporates,  Yet they can't afford or justify significant upgrades based on current projections. There is no government that could justify bailing out a system that has no financial future, and negligible community value. As such, I reckon the majority of clubs are basically on a slow death. It might be another 20 years, but most of them will have to go.

Funnily enough, if there was an all-island 10 team league in which teams played 18 games (no cup) over a 4 month period (May-August), I think it might work - I could see averages attendances of 3000-4000 happening on Monday nights (maybe), Wednesday nights (definitely) and Friday nights (definitely). 

[moysider]

Here's a question for those of you not living in or near a garrison town. Who would someone from Offaly or Meath (for example) support in the League of Ireland?

Not from near a garrison town but many around here would attend Sligo Rovers matches. I have never got around to going to any League of Ireland game.

[T Fearon]

Hardy you should have been a Dundalk fan! Used to travel regularly from Portadown ( no motorways either in those days) in the late 70s to see the likes of Blackmore,Keely,Dunning,Muckian,Carlyke and Dainty.Great team,won league and cups galore,and the likes of PSV eindhoven,Celtic,Spurs etc visited on European duty but none could get a win at Oriel

[foxcommander]

Im not sure what the prize money situation is at present, but I know two years ago the league champions secured €100,000 for winning the league while Delaney was pocketing €400,000 a year salary.

How he continues to survive is beyond belief. He'll move into politics or run for president yet.