Hamas attack Israel & subsequent genocide

[Hound]

Let's not go crawling up Biden's hole if he survives long enough to return to the oul sod.

Biden has lost all credibility with me, I hope Trump hands him his ass in the next election.

If you are making this pronouncement based on Biden trying/having to walk the line on Hamas/Gaza/Israel, you don't have a clue.

He's meant to be the leader of the free world and the most powerful man on earth. He shouldn't have to walk the line on anything.

He's not walking any line he is parroting Israeli bullshit.

Yet if Trump was there, it's probable that he would be diverting funds from Ukraine to give even more to the Israelis so they could go harder and faster in Gaza.

Certainly worth arguing you don't like the Biden response, but thinking that the response would be any more pro-Palestine under Trump is mind boggling.

[Wildweasel74]

Any lad think Trump be ever different here than Biden, needs his head see too!

[Hound]

Yeah I watched the full C4 report at the time. Thought it very balanced but for me still pointed the finger much more in IDF's direction.
Here's a good post from Al Jazeera https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/18/what-is-israels-narrative-on-the-gaza-hospital-explosion
That also outlines the "muddled" versions of IDF in the aftermath. Not just the deleted tweet but also another post with video evidence before a New York Times journalist pointed out the time stamp was wrong. The video was then removed.
The only thing pointing towards a misfire seems to be the impact crater and that can possibly be explained by an air bomb.
But for me the weight of probability has to point in IDF's favour. And in my opinion they did it and then tried to control the narrative and completely messed that up.

Cheers.
The deleted tweet holds little water for me. They admitted they facked up and explained they trusted a source they shouldn't have trusted. It's something that was easily debunked and they deleted it. That shouldn't impact our view of actual evidence. It's irrelevant other than to highlight we can't trust everything they say, just like we can't trust everything Hamas say.

Alistair Bunkel from Sky News (who is very good) said that Sunak was less committed than Biden in his response to the Israeli explanation. Which he said was interesting. But I didn't see exactly what Sunak said. And we must remember Biden wasn't unequivocal in his support for the Israeli explanation, said it needed to be confirmed.

Sunak was hard to listen in PMQ yesterday. Anytime anyone said anything about the innocent Palestinians he was jumping up saying that Israel have a right to go after Hamas and Hamas are using the people as human shields. So implying the collateral damage of the innocents was not the Israelis fault.

He's off to see the Saudi crown prince now. A right shower

[Itchy]

Lads, whine all you like about Biden and your preference for Trump. The default US position is pro-Israel - anyone who wishes to get anywhere near leadership in the country has to toe that line. Within that framework, it is only the Democratic Party which pushes back in any way against the land theft and the treatment of the Palestinians. Ironically, the majority of Jewish Americans are Democrats. It's the hardline Orthodox and Hasidic communities, with whom a lot of you lads would fine common cause on vaccines and other issues, who vote Republican, in no small part due to their views on settlements and so on.

Yes, I paraphrase. America is a sick shithole and it always will be.

[Applesisapples]

Lads, whine all you like about Biden and your preference for Trump. The default US position is pro-Israel - anyone who wishes to get anywhere near leadership in the country has to toe that line. Within that framework, it is only the Democratic Party which pushes back in any way against the land theft and the treatment of the Palestinians. Ironically, the majority of Jewish Americans are Democrats. It's the hardline Orthodox and Hasidic communities, with whom a lot of you lads would fine common cause on vaccines and other issues, who vote Republican, in no small part due to their views on settlements and so on.

I have no issues with vaccines, Trump is a douche of giant proportions, but you know what he is. Biden pretends to be something different, but when it comes to it unconditional support for Israel, US could've solved that problem years ago. Only reason I'd want to see Trump in is that he'd turn US foreign policy into a shit show.

[Itchy]

Yeah I watched the full C4 report at the time. Thought it very balanced but for me still pointed the finger much more in IDF's direction.
Here's a good post from Al Jazeera https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/18/what-is-israels-narrative-on-the-gaza-hospital-explosion
That also outlines the "muddled" versions of IDF in the aftermath. Not just the deleted tweet but also another post with video evidence before a New York Times journalist pointed out the time stamp was wrong. The video was then removed.
The only thing pointing towards a misfire seems to be the impact crater and that can possibly be explained by an air bomb.
But for me the weight of probability has to point in IDF's favour. And in my opinion they did it and then tried to control the narrative and completely messed that up.

Cheers.
The deleted tweet holds little water for me. They admitted they facked up and explained they trusted a source they shouldn't have trusted. It's something that was easily debunked and they deleted it. That shouldn't impact our view of actual evidence. It's irrelevant other than to highlight we can't trust everything they say, just like we can't trust everything Hamas say.

Alistair Bunkel from Sky News (who is very good) said that Sunak was less committed than Biden in his response to the Israeli explanation. Which he said was interesting. But I didn't see exactly what Sunak said. And we must remember Biden wasn't unequivocal in his support for the Israeli explanation, said it needed to be confirmed.

Sunak was hard to listen in PMQ yesterday. Anytime anyone said anything about the innocent Palestinians he was jumping up saying that Israel have a right to go after Hamas and Hamas are using the people as human shields. So implying the collateral damage of the innocents was not the Israelis fault.

He's off to see the Saudi crown prince now. A right shower

Which deleted tweet? The one where the celebrated hitting the hospital or the one with the fake video?

[Itchy]

And Hound, could you tell me what you think about Channel 4 declaring the Audio released by Israel to be "fake". Does that hold any water for you?

[Franko]

At worst, I could maybe understand someone having some doubts and thinking that they might hold fire making a comment until more information is out there. Misfires can happen and all that. But given that They threatened to bomb said hospital, Had hit it twice earlier in the week, had messed up media accounts, that showed they definitely lied at some point, then tried to present a recording that has been bebunked by C4, Who by far are the most trustworthy news in the UK imo (Maybe not a high bar to be fair) and others. Then I don't know how you would ever think the most likely cause was a misfire. It would take pretty significant evidence by independent experts for me to believe that it was a misfire given the above information. I'm not saying it's not possible, but on the basis of what's out there you would have to be of the opinion that it was IDF. That's before looking at the fact the rocket seemed to be more powerful than anything Hamas has done previously. And the fact that the IDF are bombing the sh!te out of the area.

You have to treat the utterances of both sides with a lot of scepticism. Hamas were the first ones to come out saying the Israelis did it when at that stage they couldn't possibly know either way, and again not that you could believe them anyway.

The alleged Hamas recordings were clearly the weakest part of the Israeli evidence. The 'debunking' was by two Arab journalists.  I take both the recording and the 'debunking' with equal pinches of salt.

While we know Israel have history of hitting both schools and hospitals, there seems to be no clear evidence to say Israel threatened to blow up this hospital. The head of the hospital said there was no warning. Would he lie? There were 3,000 people at or near the hospital.

The full C4 video is here by the way. The previous one shared above was clipped to take out the bit where they say it can't have been a standard Israel missile given the lack of damage and sceptism about the numbers that Hamas said have died. But it doesn't rule out either a misfiring Palestinian rocket nor a different type of Israeli weapon.
https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation

Sky said that the minor explosion caught on the Al Jazeera camera above the hospital immediately prior to the main explosion at ground level strongly suggests a misfire, but could have been a Palestinian or Israeli misfire.

Al Jazeera's coverage (Sky 511) is very good. It must be 20 years since I looked at it and there has been a complete sea change. Their presenters are a tad biased, as are their scroll machine writers (not unexpectedly and not unforgivable) but most of their guests are excellent.

I don't know who bombed the hospital and my inclination is the evidence points away from the Israelis, but either way there is far too much being overshadowed by the hospital, Israelis are killing people continuously in most part of Gaza and the West Bank.

Interesting that you refer to Al Jazeera in a positive fashion here.

They've just published a digital investigation on their twitter feed today which found "no grounds for the Israeli army's claim that the strike on the al-Ahli Arab hospital in Gaza was caused by a failed rocket launch"

Of course all this is largely irrelevant now

The Israelis and their parrots across the world have managed to throw enough smoke and created enough confusion that they've managed to swerve this one by convincing enough useful idiots that it wasn't them

[Itchy]

Donald Trump has one lasting legacy. You can lie and lie and lie, no matter how ridiculous, how far fetched or how impossible the lie is you can get enough corrupted hacks to repeat it and enough morons to believe it. Maybe Israel were the ones who educated Donald and probably the Nazis were the ones to educate Israel.

Anyone who believes an islamic jihad miss-fire caused this massacre can only be described as either a moron or a liar.

[J70]

Lads, whine all you like about Biden and your preference for Trump. The default US position is pro-Israel - anyone who wishes to get anywhere near leadership in the country has to toe that line. Within that framework, it is only the Democratic Party which pushes back in any way against the land theft and the treatment of the Palestinians. Ironically, the majority of Jewish Americans are Democrats. It's the hardline Orthodox and Hasidic communities, with whom a lot of you lads would fine common cause on vaccines and other issues, who vote Republican, in no small part due to their views on settlements and so on.

I have no issues with vaccines, Trump is a douche of giant proportions, but you know what he is. Biden pretends to be something different, but when it comes to it unconditional support for Israel, US could've solved that problem years ago. Only reason I'd want to see Trump in is that he'd turn US foreign policy into a shit show.

That would be wonderful for the world, wouldn't it. Putin could really run amok with the US pulling out of NATO and missiles raining down on Iran.

How could the US have solved the Israel-Palestine problem?

[seafoid]

Lads, whine all you like about Biden and your preference for Trump. The default US position is pro-Israel - anyone who wishes to get anywhere near leadership in the country has to toe that line. Within that framework, it is only the Democratic Party which pushes back in any way against the land theft and the treatment of the Palestinians. Ironically, the majority of Jewish Americans are Democrats. It's the hardline Orthodox and Hasidic communities, with whom a lot of you lads would fine common cause on vaccines and other issues, who vote Republican, in no small part due to their views on settlements and so on.

AIPAC is very similar to Tammany Hall and will meet its Aughrim sooner rather than later, as Tammany did. Everyone  hated Tammany. Everyone hates AIPAC.

[trailer]

Any lad think Trump be ever different here than Biden, needs his head see too!

He'd be more coherent and Trump is completely incoherent at best!!!

[Itchy]

Lads, whine all you like about Biden and your preference for Trump. The default US position is pro-Israel - anyone who wishes to get anywhere near leadership in the country has to toe that line. Within that framework, it is only the Democratic Party which pushes back in any way against the land theft and the treatment of the Palestinians. Ironically, the majority of Jewish Americans are Democrats. It's the hardline Orthodox and Hasidic communities, with whom a lot of you lads would fine common cause on vaccines and other issues, who vote Republican, in no small part due to their views on settlements and so on.

I have no issues with vaccines, Trump is a douche of giant proportions, but you know what he is. Biden pretends to be something different, but when it comes to it unconditional support for Israel, US could've solved that problem years ago. Only reason I'd want to see Trump in is that he'd turn US foreign policy into a shit show.

That would be wonderful for the world, wouldn't it. Putin could really run amok with the US pulling out of NATO and missiles raining down on Iran.

How could the US have solved the Israel-Palestine problem?

Do you think Putin is any worse than Netanyahu or Biden??

[trailer]

Lads, whine all you like about Biden and your preference for Trump. The default US position is pro-Israel - anyone who wishes to get anywhere near leadership in the country has to toe that line. Within that framework, it is only the Democratic Party which pushes back in any way against the land theft and the treatment of the Palestinians. Ironically, the majority of Jewish Americans are Democrats. It's the hardline Orthodox and Hasidic communities, with whom a lot of you lads would fine common cause on vaccines and other issues, who vote Republican, in no small part due to their views on settlements and so on.

This is very true. And same in UK. Starmer has to toe the line. You don't get elected without having the Jewish vote and the Jewish press on your side. Call it a bullshit Antisemitic trope or whatever but it is the truth.

[markl121]

https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/04/23/us-states-use-anti-boycott-laws-punish-responsible-businesses

I was reading about the anti boycott laws in American states. It's wild. If you want to speak out and refuse to do business with Israel? Well you're banned