Hamas attack Israel & subsequent genocide

[trueblue1234]

At worst, I could maybe understand someone having some doubts and thinking that they might hold fire making a comment until more information is out there. Misfires can happen and all that. But given that They threatened to bomb said hospital, Had hit it twice earlier in the week, had messed up media accounts, that showed they definitely lied at some point, then tried to present a recording that has been bebunked by C4, Who by far are the most trustworthy news in the UK imo (Maybe not a high bar to be fair) and others. Then I don't know how you would ever think the most likely cause was a misfire. It would take pretty significant evidence by independent experts for me to believe that it was a misfire given the above information. I'm not saying it's not possible, but on the basis of what's out there you would have to be of the opinion that it was IDF. That's before looking at the fact the rocket seemed to be more powerful than anything Hamas has done previously. And the fact that the IDF are bombing the sh!te out of the area.

You have to treat the utterances of both sides with a lot of scepticism. Hamas were the first ones to come out saying the Israelis did it when at that stage they couldn't possibly know either way, and again not that you could believe them anyway.

The alleged Hamas recordings were clearly the weakest part of the Israeli evidence. The 'debunking' was by two Arab journalists.  I take both the recording and the 'debunking' with equal pinches of salt.

While we know Israel have history of hitting both schools and hospitals, there seems to be no clear evidence to say Israel threatened to blow up this hospital. The head of the hospital said there was no warning. Would he lie? There were 3,000 people at or near the hospital.

The full C4 video is here by the way. The previous one shared above was clipped to take out the bit where they say it can't have been a standard Israel missile given the lack of damage and sceptism about the numbers that Hamas said have died. But it doesn't rule out either a misfiring Palestinian rocket nor a different type of Israeli weapon.
https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation

Sky said that the minor explosion caught on the Al Jazeera camera above the hospital immediately prior to the main explosion at ground level strongly suggests a misfire, but could have been a Palestinian or Israeli misfire.

Al Jazeera's coverage (Sky 511) is very good. It must be 20 years since I looked at it and there has been a complete sea change. Their presenters are a tad biased, as are their scroll machine writers (not unexpectedly and not unforgivable) but most of their guests are excellent.

I don't know who bombed the hospital and my inclination is the evidence points away from the Israelis, but either way there is far too much being overshadowed by the hospital, Israelis are killing people continuously in most part of Gaza and the West Bank.

Yeah I watched the full C4 report at the time. Thought it very balanced but for me still pointed the finger much more in IDF's direction.
Here's a good post from Al Jazeera https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/18/what-is-israels-narrative-on-the-gaza-hospital-explosion
That also outlines the "muddled" versions of IDF in the aftermath. Not just the deleted tweet but also another post with video evidence before a New York Times journalist pointed out the time stamp was wrong. The video was then removed.
The only thing pointing towards a misfire seems to be the impact crater and that can possibly be explained by an air bomb.
But for me the weight of probability has to point in IDF's favour. And in my opinion they did it and then tried to control the narrative and completely messed that up.

[JoG2]

At worst, I could maybe understand someone having some doubts and thinking that they might hold fire making a comment until more information is out there. Misfires can happen and all that. But given that They threatened to bomb said hospital, Had hit it twice earlier in the week, had messed up media accounts, that showed they definitely lied at some point, then tried to present a recording that has been bebunked by C4, Who by far are the most trustworthy news in the UK imo (Maybe not a high bar to be fair) and others. Then I don't know how you would ever think the most likely cause was a misfire. It would take pretty significant evidence by independent experts for me to believe that it was a misfire given the above information. I'm not saying it's not possible, but on the basis of what's out there you would have to be of the opinion that it was IDF. That's before looking at the fact the rocket seemed to be more powerful than anything Hamas has done previously. And the fact that the IDF are bombing the sh!te out of the area.

You have to treat the utterances of both sides with a lot of scepticism. Hamas were the first ones to come out saying the Israelis did it when at that stage they couldn't possibly know either way, and again not that you could believe them anyway.

The alleged Hamas recordings were clearly the weakest part of the Israeli evidence. The 'debunking' was by two Arab journalists.  I take both the recording and the 'debunking' with equal pinches of salt.

While we know Israel have history of hitting both schools and hospitals, there seems to be no clear evidence to say Israel threatened to blow up this hospital. The head of the hospital said there was no warning. Would he lie? There were 3,000 people at or near the hospital.

The full C4 video is here by the way. The previous one shared above was clipped to take out the bit where they say it can't have been a standard Israel missile given the lack of damage and sceptism about the numbers that Hamas said have died. But it doesn't rule out either a misfiring Palestinian rocket nor a different type of Israeli weapon.
https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation

Sky said that the minor explosion caught on the Al Jazeera camera above the hospital immediately prior to the main explosion at ground level strongly suggests a misfire, but could have been a Palestinian or Israeli misfire.

Al Jazeera's coverage (Sky 511) is very good. It must be 20 years since I looked at it and there has been a complete sea change. Their presenters are a tad biased, as are their scroll machine writers (not unexpectedly and not unforgivable) but most of their guests are excellent.

I don't know who bombed the hospital and my inclination is the evidence points away from the Israelis, but either way there is far too much being overshadowed by the hospital, Israelis are killing people continuously in most part of Gaza and the West Bank.

Still points away from Israel...! You've the heals well dug in. Operation Misinformation isn't misfiring

[Hereiam]

Benji wearing no suit to met Richie tells u all you need to know.

[tonto1888]

At worst, I could maybe understand someone having some doubts and thinking that they might hold fire making a comment until more information is out there. Misfires can happen and all that. But given that They threatened to bomb said hospital, Had hit it twice earlier in the week, had messed up media accounts, that showed they definitely lied at some point, then tried to present a recording that has been bebunked by C4, Who by far are the most trustworthy news in the UK imo (Maybe not a high bar to be fair) and others. Then I don't know how you would ever think the most likely cause was a misfire. It would take pretty significant evidence by independent experts for me to believe that it was a misfire given the above information. I'm not saying it's not possible, but on the basis of what's out there you would have to be of the opinion that it was IDF. That's before looking at the fact the rocket seemed to be more powerful than anything Hamas has done previously. And the fact that the IDF are bombing the sh!te out of the area.

You have to treat the utterances of both sides with a lot of scepticism. Hamas were the first ones to come out saying the Israelis did it when at that stage they couldn't possibly know either way, and again not that you could believe them anyway.

The alleged Hamas recordings were clearly the weakest part of the Israeli evidence. The 'debunking' was by two Arab journalists.  I take both the recording and the 'debunking' with equal pinches of salt.

While we know Israel have history of hitting both schools and hospitals, there seems to be no clear evidence to say Israel threatened to blow up this hospital. The head of the hospital said there was no warning. Would he lie? There were 3,000 people at or near the hospital.

The full C4 video is here by the way. The previous one shared above was clipped to take out the bit where they say it can't have been a standard Israel missile given the lack of damage and sceptism about the numbers that Hamas said have died. But it doesn't rule out either a misfiring Palestinian rocket nor a different type of Israeli weapon.
https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation

Sky said that the minor explosion caught on the Al Jazeera camera above the hospital immediately prior to the main explosion at ground level strongly suggests a misfire, but could have been a Palestinian or Israeli misfire.

Al Jazeera's coverage (Sky 511) is very good. It must be 20 years since I looked at it and there has been a complete sea change. Their presenters are a tad biased, as are their scroll machine writers (not unexpectedly and not unforgivable) but most of their guests are excellent.

I don't know who bombed the hospital and my inclination is the evidence points away from the Israelis, but either way there is far too much being overshadowed by the hospital, Israelis are killing people continuously in most part of Gaza and the West Bank.

Yeah I watched the full C4 report at the time. Thought it very balanced but for me still pointed the finger much more in IDF's direction.
Here's a good post from Al Jazeera https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/18/what-is-israels-narrative-on-the-gaza-hospital-explosion
That also outlines the "muddled" versions of IDF in the aftermath. Not just the deleted tweet but also another post with video evidence before a New York Times journalist pointed out the time stamp was wrong. The video was then removed.
The only thing pointing towards a misfire seems to be the impact crater and that can possibly be explained by an air bomb.
But for me the weight of probability has to point in IDF's favour. And in my opinion they did it and then tried to control the narrative and completely messed that up.

initially I was unsure and thought both arguments were plausible. Since then any evidence I have seen points towards the Israelis being culpable, admittedly I am bias. As Hound - I think- said this is overshadowing the continued bombing of Gaza and the killing of Palestinians by Israel. The confusion and continued discussion certainly suits them

[J70]

Let's not go crawling up Biden's hole if he survives long enough to return to the oul sod.

Biden has lost all credibility with me, I hope Trump hands him his ass in the next election.

If you are making this pronouncement based on Biden trying/having to walk the line on Hamas/Gaza/Israel, you don't have a clue.

[Armagh18]

Let's not go crawling up Biden's hole if he survives long enough to return to the oul sod.

Biden has lost all credibility with me, I hope Trump hands him his ass in the next election.

If you are making this pronouncement based on Biden trying/having to walk the line on Hamas/Gaza/Israel, you don't have a clue.

He's meant to be the leader of the free world and the most powerful man on earth. He shouldn't have to walk the line on anything.

[J70]

Let's not go crawling up Biden's hole if he survives long enough to return to the oul sod.

Biden has lost all credibility with me, I hope Trump hands him his ass in the next election.

If you are making this pronouncement based on Biden trying/having to walk the line on Hamas/Gaza/Israel, you don't have a clue.

He's meant to be the leader of the free world and the most powerful man on earth. He shouldn't have to walk the line on anything.

In the real world, he does.

But that's not the point. My point is that if you think the US position would be more palatable, in your perception, under Trump, you're insane.

Even as we speak, GOP presidential candidates are trying to scaremonger about Biden pledging the 100 million for aid to the Palestinians in Gaza. Netanyahu snubbed Biden and Obama at the end of Obama's term because he felt they weren't being supine enough for them. Got to address the House under the GOP instead, which I'm sure greased the wheels for the move of the embassy to Jerusalem once Trump got in. The GOP evangelical base are rabidly pro-Israel, not for any Jew-loving reason, but due to biblical prophecies and for some a healthy dose of Islamophobia.

[LeoMc]

Let's not go crawling up Biden's hole if he survives long enough to return to the oul sod.

Biden has lost all credibility with me, I hope Trump hands him his ass in the next election.

If you are making this pronouncement based on Biden trying/having to walk the line on Hamas/Gaza/Israel, you don't have a clue.

He's meant to be the leader of the free world and the most powerful man on earth. He shouldn't have to walk the line on anything.

It is approaching a tipping point, Chinese soft power is tipping the balance away from the US.
The more sway that MAGA/America First have inside the US, turning the US away from that leadership role, the faster that will tilt. The Chinese leadership don't have to worry about  elections every 2 years.

[LeoMc]

At worst, I could maybe understand someone having some doubts and thinking that they might hold fire making a comment until more information is out there. Misfires can happen and all that. But given that They threatened to bomb said hospital, Had hit it twice earlier in the week, had messed up media accounts, that showed they definitely lied at some point, then tried to present a recording that has been bebunked by C4, Who by far are the most trustworthy news in the UK imo (Maybe not a high bar to be fair) and others. Then I don't know how you would ever think the most likely cause was a misfire. It would take pretty significant evidence by independent experts for me to believe that it was a misfire given the above information. I'm not saying it's not possible, but on the basis of what's out there you would have to be of the opinion that it was IDF. That's before looking at the fact the rocket seemed to be more powerful than anything Hamas has done previously. And the fact that the IDF are bombing the sh!te out of the area.

You have to treat the utterances of both sides with a lot of scepticism. Hamas were the first ones to come out saying the Israelis did it when at that stage they couldn't possibly know either way, and again not that you could believe them anyway.

The alleged Hamas recordings were clearly the weakest part of the Israeli evidence. The 'debunking' was by two Arab journalists.  I take both the recording and the 'debunking' with equal pinches of salt.

While we know Israel have history of hitting both schools and hospitals, there seems to be no clear evidence to say Israel threatened to blow up this hospital. The head of the hospital said there was no warning. Would he lie? There were 3,000 people at or near the hospital.

The full C4 video is here by the way. The previous one shared above was clipped to take out the bit where they say it can't have been a standard Israel missile given the lack of damage and sceptism about the numbers that Hamas said have died. But it doesn't rule out either a misfiring Palestinian rocket nor a different type of Israeli weapon.
https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation

Sky said that the minor explosion caught on the Al Jazeera camera above the hospital immediately prior to the main explosion at ground level strongly suggests a misfire, but could have been a Palestinian or Israeli misfire.

Al Jazeera's coverage (Sky 511) is very good. It must be 20 years since I looked at it and there has been a complete sea change. Their presenters are a tad biased, as are their scroll machine writers (not unexpectedly and not unforgivable) but most of their guests are excellent.

I don't know who bombed the hospital and my inclination is the evidence points away from the Israelis, but either way there is far too much being overshadowed by the hospital, Israelis are killing people continuously in most part of Gaza and the West Bank.

Still points away from Israel...! You've the heals well dug in. Operation Misinformation isn't misfiring

Everyone seems to have the heels well dug in.

[Wildweasel74]

I think you need to see the crater from the attack, to determine the weapon used.

[Armagh18]

Let's not go crawling up Biden's hole if he survives long enough to return to the oul sod.

Biden has lost all credibility with me, I hope Trump hands him his ass in the next election.

If you are making this pronouncement based on Biden trying/having to walk the line on Hamas/Gaza/Israel, you don't have a clue.

He's meant to be the leader of the free world and the most powerful man on earth. He shouldn't have to walk the line on anything.

In the real world, he does.

But that's not the point. My point is that if you think the US position would be more palatable, in your perception, under Trump, you're insane.

Even as we speak, GOP presidential candidates are trying to scaremonger about Biden pledging the 100 million for aid to the Palestinians in Gaza. Netanyahu snubbed Biden and Obama at the end of Obama's term because he felt they weren't being supine enough for them. Got to address the House under the GOP instead, which I'm sure greased the wheels for the move of the embassy to Jerusalem once Trump got in. The GOP evangelical base are rabidly pro-Israel, not for any Jew-loving reason, but due to biblical prophecies and for some a healthy dose of Islamophobia.

He should be able/willing to call out a shower of murdering bastards without being called an anti-Semite or whatever else. Can't stand him or Trump tbh. Or any American politician really

[johnnycool]

Let's not go crawling up Biden's hole if he survives long enough to return to the oul sod.

Biden has lost all credibility with me, I hope Trump hands him his ass in the next election.

If you are making this pronouncement based on Biden trying/having to walk the line on Hamas/Gaza/Israel, you don't have a clue.

He's meant to be the leader of the free world and the most powerful man on earth. He shouldn't have to walk the line on anything.

In the real world, he does.

But that's not the point. My point is that if you think the US position would be more palatable, in your perception, under Trump, you're insane.

Even as we speak, GOP presidential candidates are trying to scaremonger about Biden pledging the 100 million for aid to the Palestinians in Gaza. Netanyahu snubbed Biden and Obama at the end of Obama's term because he felt they weren't being supine enough for them. Got to address the House under the GOP instead, which I'm sure greased the wheels for the move of the embassy to Jerusalem once Trump got in. The GOP evangelical base are rabidly pro-Israel, not for any Jew-loving reason, but due to biblical prophecies and for some a healthy dose of Islamophobia.

He should be able/willing to call out a shower of murdering bastards without being called an anti-Semite or whatever else. Can't stand him or Trump tbh. Or any American politician really

US politics has never been about honesty, it's about keeping the donors onside. Period.

[Applesisapples]

Let's not go crawling up Biden's hole if he survives long enough to return to the oul sod.

Biden has lost all credibility with me, I hope Trump hands him his ass in the next election.

If you are making this pronouncement based on Biden trying/having to walk the line on Hamas/Gaza/Israel, you don't have a clue.

He's meant to be the leader of the free world and the most powerful man on earth. He shouldn't have to walk the line on anything.

He's not walking any line he is parroting Israeli bullshit.

[Itchy]

US Politics: As South Park once parodied, you can vote for a giant Douche or a Turd Sandwich. But if you don't vote for one of them you should die. All the money invested to convince people to vote for w**ker 1 or w**ker 2 - sick.

[J70]

Lads, whine all you like about Biden and your preference for Trump. The default US position is pro-Israel - anyone who wishes to get anywhere near leadership in the country has to toe that line. Within that framework, it is only the Democratic Party which pushes back in any way against the land theft and the treatment of the Palestinians. Ironically, the majority of Jewish Americans are Democrats. It's the hardline Orthodox and Hasidic communities, with whom a lot of you lads would fine common cause on vaccines and other issues, who vote Republican, in no small part due to their views on settlements and so on.