Hamas attack Israel & subsequent genocide

[Eamonnca1]

The point is that the devastation is relatively modest and there weren't actually anything like 500 fatalities, that seems to have been fake news to try and imply a level of devastation that a rocket could not produce.

So perhaps dozens of people were killed and probably the airstrikes since last night have killed at least as many.

Is this sarcasm?

[armaghniac]

The point is that the devastation is relatively modest and there weren't actually anything like 500 fatalities, that seems to have been fake news to try and imply a level of devastation that a rocket could not produce.

So perhaps dozens of people were killed and probably the airstrikes since last night have killed at least as many.

Is this sarcasm?

No. This hospital thing does not seem to have been the Israelis, but they are bombing away today so all of this discussion about the rocket hitting the hospital car park is actually a distraction at this stage.

[LeoMc]

The biggest outliers in the various claims are the levels of damage v the level of casualties.

An Israeli missile would likely have caused more damage.
A Hamas misfire would not have caused that level of casualties.

The Palestinian people are hostages to both a genocidal Israeli regime and a nihilistic Hamas regime while Egypt and Jordan play politics.

[Eamonnca1]

The point is that the devastation is relatively modest and there weren't actually anything like 500 fatalities, that seems to have been fake news to try and imply a level of devastation that a rocket could not produce.

So perhaps dozens of people were killed and probably the airstrikes since last night have killed at least as many.

Is this sarcasm?

No. This hospital thing does not seem to have been the Israelis, but they are bombing away today so all of this discussion about the rocket hitting the hospital car park is actually a distraction at this stage.

Sweet. Jesus.

I give up.

[JoG2]

The point is that the devastation is relatively modest and there weren't actually anything like 500 fatalities, that seems to have been fake news to try and imply a level of devastation that a rocket could not produce.

So perhaps dozens of people were killed and probably the airstrikes since last night have killed at least as many.

Is this sarcasm?

No. This hospital thing does not seem to have been the Israelis, but they are bombing away today so all of this discussion about the rocket hitting the hospital car park is actually a distraction at this stage.

Looking back the conflict and what Israel has done historically , why can I ask do you seem to be siding with them as the oppressor, or if not siding, going with their side of events?

[AustinPowers]

Let's not go crawling up Biden's hole if he survives long enough to return to the oul sod.

It was sickening to see  so many Irish  people kissing  the bastid's  arse last time he  was here. 

[Itchy]

The point is that the devastation is relatively modest and there weren't actually anything like 500 fatalities, that seems to have been fake news to try and imply a level of devastation that a rocket could not produce.

So perhaps dozens of people were killed and probably the airstrikes since last night have killed at least as many.

Is this sarcasm?

No. This hospital thing does not seem to have been the Israelis, but they are bombing away today so all of this discussion about the rocket hitting the hospital car park is actually a distraction at this stage.

A distraction? How many people did Brits kill on Bloody Sunday. Only the 13. But of distraction too was it?

[seafoid]

How and why Israel's disinformation campaign is enabling its massacre in Gaza
Israel is carrying out a large-scale disinformation campaign to build political support for its attack on Gaza, as well as recover from its comprehensive intelligence and military failures on October 7.
BY ABDALJAWAD OMAR  OCTOBER 13, 2023  0
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SCREENSHOT FROM A CNN BROADCAST ON OCT 11, 2023. (SCREENSHOT VIA TWITTER/X @CNN)
In the hours immediately following the surprise attack on the southern borders with Gaza by Palestinian fighters, Israel began carrying out a large-scale disinformation campaign that has had a strategic impact on the ongoing conflict in the Gaza Strip.
This disinformation campaign is especially surprising considering the exaggerations of events that transpired on the Gaza border. The central question from an Israeli standpoint: why exaggerate the depiction of the events within the border, when the actual events were already brutal enough? Claims made by Israel, later echoed by U.S. President Biden, about beheaded babies, rape, the burning of Israeli civilians, and other such incidents made global headlines, which continued to spread without any substantiation.
This deliberate attempt at exaggeration and dramatization of events will throw a large question on what actually transpired in the Gaza envelope. Already, Palestinian groups have issued several statements regarding the dehumanization campaign. Saleh Aruri, a member of Hamas's political bureau, issued a statement on Aljazeera that included several important claims about the conduct of warfare in the Gaza Envelope.
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Firstly, Aruri refuted any allegations concerning beheaded infants. Secondly, he stressed that Palestinian fighters had been given explicit instructions regarding the handling of any captured Israeli settlements, noting that in several areas, Israeli civilians opted to defend by firing at the fighters. Perhaps more crucially, he asserted that Israel chose not to engage in negotiations with any groups within its borders, leading to substantial collateral damage in numerous hostage situations. The Palestinian military strategy aimed to delay Israel's retaking of the area around the strip. In contrast, Israel was intent on swiftly reclaiming the territory, seemingly without regard for the safety of its own citizens.
Yet the Israeli disinformation campaign had multiple objectives, the gravest being the provision of political leverage for Israel to execute airstrikes and a possible ground invasion without facing repercussions.
However, it's crucial to understand that the core of Israel's distress stems from two pivotal setbacks experienced on Saturday. First, there was a comprehensive failure in its surveillance, detection, and defensive mechanisms. This oversight was intensified by the ineptitude of its intelligence services to anticipate and thwart the offensive initiated by Palestinian fighters in Gaza. Such a shortcoming not only tarnishes its global intelligence reputation but also strains its societal ties.
The second blow was the unforeseen dissolution and downfall of its southern division — a development that caught even the Palestinian groups in Gaza off-guard. Members of Israel's southern division were either captured, perished, or opted for retreat. Only a few fought, and it took Israel more than four days to regain control of the "Gaza Envelope," a wide area surrounding Gaza that was infiltrated by a meager force of 1,200 fighters.
This holds monumental significance. As a state rooted in colonialism, Israel's prestige and survival hinges on the prowess and integrity of its defense systems and armed forces. The swift collapse of its military divisions, coupled with the rapid fragmentation of its southern command, represents a profound psychological blow. This crisis has driven its right-wing administration to solicit international military backing — a move that will inevitably reshape its political landscape and influence the future trajectories of several of its leaders once the conflict ceases.
Yet, at the heart of these unfolding events lies a disconcerting decline in Israel's strategic foresight. Its frenzied reactions not only underscore the psychological trauma experienced on Saturday but also project a macabre display of its capabilities — intending to depict the Israeli military as a streamlined apparatus for killing and destruction. However, the current narratives lack a clear strategic vision, making its vow to annihilate Hamas a contentious stance that poses intricate ramifications for the broader regional dynamics.
Another component is vital for its disinformation campaign, aiming to rekindle unity and determination within its society during times when such sentiments are waning. Concurrently, Israeli society is plagued by internal political discord, marked by profound mistrust dividing various ethnic and political factions. Even more crucially, this unfolds against a backdrop where Israel, devoid of any tangible political solution to a prolonged conflict, and while besieging Gaza, presumed it could operate without facing repercussions. The rift between its populace and the military and political elite demands the crafting of a narrative resonant with both Jewish and Israeli sensitivities.
Moreover, a ground maneuver in the Gaza Strip would necessitate significant sacrifice on the part of Israel's military. Its wager that a ground offensive would end Palestinian resistance could also backfire and lead to an even worse political and strategic condition.
Moreover, the unwavering support from the U.S. and its attempts at deterrence may prove futile in dissuading other factions from joining the conflict. Entities like Hezbollah have predicated their existence on championing the Palestinian cause. Their silence or inaction now would undermine their core principles. Strategically, neither Hezbollah nor Iran can afford to watch one of its paramount bastions in Gaza crumble without intervening. This would expose it to intensified efforts by Israel or its allies in potential future confrontations.
Israel's present combat approach echoes archaic military philosophies, where airpower was perceived as a tool to coerce civilian masses into rebelling against their rulers. Thinkers like Giulio Douhet posited that focused assaults on civilians could instigate political shifts. Israel now is weaponizing madness as a psychological and military response, and the world needs to rein it in.

[seafoid]

Quotes on zionism from Rabbi Elmer Berger and others

Berger, 1942:
The "Jewish problem" is not realy Jewish at all, though the Zionist is well on his way to making it so by seeking this thoroughgoing exclusiveness of Jewish life. The destiny of the Jew still lies with the destiny of the liberal world. Because fundamentally, Zionism has no faith with that world, I am a non-Zionist.


Berger, 1943:
I oppose Zionism because I deny that Jews are a nation. We were a nation for perhaps two hundred years in a history of four thousand years. Before that we were a group of warring Semitic tribes whse only tenuous bond of unity was a national deity—a religious unity... Certainly since the Dispersion we have not been a nation. We have belonged to every nation of the world. We have mixed our blood with all peoples. Jewish nationalism is a fabrication woven from the thinnest kind of threads and strengthened only in those eras of human history in which reaction has been dominant and anti-Semites in full cry.

Rabbi Morris Lazaron, 1952:
Let us pray that some generous proposal will be made by the state of Israel to the Arab and Muslim peoples to help solve their refugee problem...

Rabbi Irving Reichert of the American Council for Judaism in a 1936 sermon in San Francisco:
If my reading of Jewish history is correct, Israel took upon itself the yoke of the Law not in Palestine, but in the wilderness at Mount Sinai... There is too dangerous a parallel between the insistence sof some Zionist spokesmen upon nationality and race and blood, and similar pronouncements by Fasicst leaders in European dictatorships. Some types of propaganda may prove too tragically successful for our comfort.. If we succeed in teaching America that Zionism is the only instrument of our political salvation, we may live to regret it...

Norman Thomas, the American socialist leader, in 1952, on the new Israeli Law of Return:
Even more dangerous will be the consequences of this new law in fanning the flames of Arab chauvinism and Muslim fanaticism.


Berger, 1955:
The Old Testament Prophets wrote the most significant pages in the development of Judaism. They first conceived and articulated a religion dependent upon inner, moral strength, rather than upon land, nation or ritual. In Prophetic Judaism, as well as in the noblest conceptions of theAmerican dream, God is conceived as 'indwelling' within man.
Ross's commentary: "It should be noted thought htat while it has gained vogue in recent generations as a position of quasi-agnosticism, the concept of the 'indwelling God' has an ancient pedigree in Judaism, originating at the shekhina of kabbalah."


Berger on visiting Israel and Arab neighbors in 1955:
"I am more than ever convinced of the absolute necessity for Jews outside of Israel to divorce themselves completely from a situation of moral degradation apparent in the Arab refugee problem."

Frank Chodorov of ACJ in the 50s.
Israel is only part Israel, the rest being world-wide Zionism, and it is not certain which part wags which. Until this uncertainty is resolved, peace in the Middle East will be precarious, and American foreign policy will be in a similar state of turmoil.

Hannah Arendt in the early 1960s, writing to Berger. This quote should be hung around her reputation like a cowbell:
I am not really an anti-Zionist, and when Ben-Gurion passes from the scene Zionism will revert to the kind of broad, liberal movement it was as I first knew it in Germany.

Berger, followed by Ross:
"We could afford to lose, as we did, the battle against Jewish nationalism in far off Palestine... But we cannot afford to lose the battle against Jewish nationalism in America." But this had always been the more hopeless battle. One way or another, the great majority of American Jews at the midpoint of the twentieth century were emphatically determined not be be 'Americans of Jewish faith," the identity that had meant so much to those who formed the Council [ACJ]. Zionism would give the most compelling answer to the anxieties of that generation, as it was inevitably becoming more Americanized.

Lessing Rosenwald of the ACJ on opposing Zionists:
We had to oppose them as undemocratic in conception and in operation, as archaic, attuned to medieval times rather than to the aspirations of the 20th century.

Ross  comparing Theodor Herzl to Marcus Garvey
Garvey packed Madison Square Garden in 1921 to proclaim himself "Provisional President of Africa" in a stunning echo of Herzl's declaration to have founded the Jewish State at Basel in 1897. Like Herzl, Garvey had a conspicuous taste for pompous dress and manner... The Garveyites, in turn, were no less fanatical than the Zionists against their adversaries, disparaging them in racially charged terms as 'mulattoes' and 'octoroons.'"

And on the goal of Jews in the civil rights movement: "the complete integration into U.S. society of African Americans, a goal that, at least in theory, they had rejected for themselves."
Berger in 1969 on the urgency of discussing the lobby.

If Zionism is not 'ventilated," Mr [Abba] Eban will become again Assistant Secretary of State for the Near East.

Jack Ross on recent history:
If anything, the peace process was only interpreted as a license for American Judaism to become more closely and intensely identified with Zionism than ever before...  [The new prevalence of Holocaust awareness was a factor.] Another was the dramatic increase of Israeli influences on the religious practices of American Jews, whether directly from Israelis themselves or through the intensely Zionist-oriented Jewish summer camps, which defined the exposure of whole generations to Judaism....

Ross on Berger's understanding of Jewish history:
The Old Testament reflected little more than a long saga of tribal warfare though the Iron and Bronze Ages ...and that fundamentally the Jewish religion is not the tribal religion of this history but the faith of the prophets who proclaimed the possibility of a more just and righteous way of life.

[armaghniac]

The point is that the devastation is relatively modest and there weren't actually anything like 500 fatalities, that seems to have been fake news to try and imply a level of devastation that a rocket could not produce.

So perhaps dozens of people were killed and probably the airstrikes since last night have killed at least as many.

Is this sarcasm?

No. This hospital thing does not seem to have been the Israelis, but they are bombing away today so all of this discussion about the rocket hitting the hospital car park is actually a distraction at this stage.

A distraction? How many people did Brits kill on Bloody Sunday. Only the 13. But of distraction too was it?

No, not the same thing at all, that was murder. What this shows is that Islamic Jihad's rockets are shite, so it is irresponsible firing them over built up areas, but we already knew that. Islamic Jihad are not going to respond to international pressure.

[Nanderson]

The only facts that we have are the Israel are known to significantly bend the truth, Palestinian rockets do have the ability to misfire and that we will never have a proper independent review of how this was caused as too many big nations have too much skin in the game to admit that their side was at fault

[PadraicHenryPearse]

The point is that the devastation is relatively modest and there weren't actually anything like 500 fatalities, that seems to have been fake news to try and imply a level of devastation that a rocket could not produce.

So perhaps dozens of people were killed and probably the airstrikes since last night have killed at least as many.

Is this sarcasm?

No. This hospital thing does not seem to have been the Israelis, but they are bombing away today so all of this discussion about the rocket hitting the hospital car park is actually a distraction at this stage.

A distraction? How many people did Brits kill on Bloody Sunday. Only the 13. But of distraction too was it?

No, not the same thing at all, that was murder. What this shows is that Islamic Jihad's rockets are shite, so it is irresponsible firing them over built up areas, but we already knew that. Islamic Jihad are not going to respond to international pressure.

Israel bombed hosiptals in 2014, bomb hospitals now, said they would bomb hospitals, warned they would bomb this particular hospital, IDF digital spokesperson tweeted they did it, then deleted it.

IDF tweeted that it was Hamas and included video with wrong time stamp, deleted videos amd then blamed rocket fire from hospital, then changed to beside it, then it was PIJ, its been shrapnel, its been rocket, its been a detonation at the launch sites all from Israeli sources.

We have the beach bombimg of 3 kids in gaza in 2014, deny deny deny, it was PIJ, the murder of Shireen Abu akleh, againn deny deny deny.

[armaghniac]

Israel bombed hosiptals in 2014, bomb hospitals now, said they would bomb hospitals, warned they would bomb this particular hospital, IDF digital spokesperson tweeted they did it, then deleted it.

IDF tweeted that it was Hamas and included video with wrong time stamp, deleted videos amd then blamed rocket fire from hospital, then changed to beside it, then it was PIJ, its been shrapnel, its been rocket, its been a detonation at the launch sites all from Israeli sources.

We have the beach bombimg of 3 kids in gaza in 2014, deny deny deny, it was PIJ, the murder of Shireen Abu akleh, againn deny deny deny.

I have no doubt that Isreal will kill innocent people, I just don't think they would do it in the numbers suggested the day before Biden came, and the evidence does not support that they did.

[bennydorano]

Who bombed the hospital in Gaza? Israel's evidence analysed

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1dd52778-6dbf-11ee-b0f3-053d83492f27?shareToken=58bcfbc3db2a48651bf26351833c686d

[Kidder81]

It wouldn't matter what evidence was produced (and it's looking likely now our experts here who believed the Hamas line after an hour were wrong) about the hospital the fact that there are Irish men on here who align themselves with bloodthirsty maniac terrorists is one of the most bizarre moments I have seen on this board. Some of you are like bots on social media