Joe Brolly

[highorlow]

Great Idea from Joe. Gives the game a more attacking balance which would overcome the black card blanket conundrum.

[Keyser soze]

Many of the criticisms of the game are valid, but they are not new.  From 87/88/90/92/93/94/95/97/99 all Ireland finals were putrid so for those who think that Spillane and Brolly are to ne taken seriously I refer you to any of these matches.  The worst game in living history was the Donegal May semi final in 92.  If we really want to admit it the reason why we dont like Gaelic football is because the physicality has been eroded. The reason why handpasses have spawned is because theres no allowed physical way of stopping the runner.  The black card was introduced and one of its side effects has been the  ability to handpass without fear of being stopped.  30 years ago we removed the handpassed goal because it couldnt be predicted and stopped.  30 years on Joe et all forgot about this and supported the introduction of a rule that rewards and protects the running game.  Then they complain. 
As far as the term  Clonoe Conundrum is concerned JB is on the wind up again and again and everyone takes his bit of craic too seriously.

The worst game in living history was donegal-dublin aisf 2011. I don't think a game has ever came close to that level of direness...

Well so far nobody else has come close to this level of hyperboleness lol [yes i may have made that word up]. You should really get out more. I can think of a half dozen worse matchs in AI finals than this.

The usual monday lets change the riules brigade are out in force as usual on a monday morning. though they havent even had a game to watch to set them off this week.

Can ye not remember when Joe rid the game of cynicism a couple of years ago with his last rule change?How did that pan out for ye?

[imtommygunn]

Many of the criticisms of the game are valid, but they are not new.  From 87/88/90/92/93/94/95/97/99 all Ireland finals were putrid so for those who think that Spillane and Brolly are to ne taken seriously I refer you to any of these matches.  The worst game in living history was the Donegal May semi final in 92.  If we really want to admit it the reason why we dont like Gaelic football is because the physicality has been eroded. The reason why handpasses have spawned is because theres no allowed physical way of stopping the runner.  The black card was introduced and one of its side effects has been the  ability to handpass without fear of being stopped.  30 years ago we removed the handpassed goal because it couldnt be predicted and stopped.  30 years on Joe et all forgot about this and supported the introduction of a rule that rewards and protects the running game.  Then they complain. 
As far as the term  Clonoe Conundrum is concerned JB is on the wind up again and again and everyone takes his bit of craic too seriously.

The worst game in living history was donegal-dublin aisf 2011. I don't think a game has ever came close to that level of direness...

Well so far nobody else has come close to this level of hyperboleness lol [yes i may have made that word up]. You should really get out more. I can think of a half dozen worse matchs in AI finals than this.

The usual monday lets change the riules brigade are out in force as usual on a monday morning. though they havent even had a game to watch to set them off this week.

Can ye not remember when Joe rid the game of cynicism a couple of years ago with his last rule change?How did that pan out for ye?

Sometimes the hyperbole is correct and in that case it was. 10-15 minutes of last year;s final were pretty bad too and the final in general was poor. Finals have too much at stake so it's rare you get a good AI final in the football these days.

[macdanger2]

Not a bad idea in theory but it could end up slowing the game down in a big way. I have no doubt teams would come up with a way to counteract it if they wanted to e.g. line all the forwards up on the halfway line, foul in midfield if you don't win the ball and everyone is back in defensive positions by the time the free is taken.

[brokencrossbar1]

Lads I will stick up the link when it becomes available but last night we gave an exhibition of how to play the game, and that involved short kickouts and all!!  Football is far too easy but is being complicated by people who do not have the conviction to play the game as it should be in case they are found out.

[Zulu]

Not a bad idea in theory but it could end up slowing the game down in a big way. I have no doubt teams would come up with a way to counteract it if they wanted to e.g. line all the forwards up on the halfway line, foul in midfield if you don't win the ball and everyone is back in defensive positions by the time the free is taken.

Possibly but wouldn't that just show that our mentality regarding the game is really warped?

Well, the only logical avenue is to change the rules, if teams are, within the current rules, being too negative for your (or Brolly's) preferences. Ludicrous to suggest that a team manager will not explore all options to maximise the chances of success in any game, unless you'd be in favour of Gaelic Football managers being the first in history to exclude defensive options. Football attendances are not collapsing, and haven't been in recent years, though yes, they will fluctuate.

If you think that Brolly's suggestion is a 'simple' change to the rules, I fear you'll have a whole new set of conundrums to deal with. Things are rarely straightforward, especially where rule changes are concerned, and I wouldn't be optimistic -- Brolly was talking about a single club game that finished with a soccer scoreline, and if that were a regular and recurrent scenario then something would have to be done. But it's not, so I would be inclined to still the siren voices.

Again, it isn't my or Brolly's preferences it is the vast majority of football supporters. There are still great games being played but it isn't just the odd defensive team or game that people are complaining about it is the trend (now even at underage level) towards that type of tactic that is concerning.

Nobody said football attendances are collapsing but that doesn't mean people are happy with defensive football so focusing on that is a red herring.

Brolly used one example, that's not to say it's the only one. However, it isn't simply about the score. Teams have now figured out the massed defence but the solution to the massed defence is as bad as the massed defence itself - retain possession play it around outside the mass defence and look for a gap in the defence.

Brolly's suggestion is very simple but you are right, it may cause more problems which is why any proposal should be trialled. Anybody who is not concerned about the current trend towards massed defence is not interested in football IMO because if they were they would also be concerned by trend that may make Conor McManus, James O'Donoghue, Jamie Clarke, Colm O'Neill, Bernard Brogan defunct. Indeed, if the massed defence trend continues then we may no longer have full forward lines at all.

[Zulu]

Lads I will stick up the link when it becomes available but last night we gave an exhibition of how to play the game, and that involved short kickouts and all!!  Football is far too easy but is being complicated by people who do not have the conviction to play the game as it should be in case they are found out.

And that's the nub of it BC1. It would actually be a shame if we had legislate against short kickouts or hand passing as both have important parts to play in football. However, coaches who want to play risk free, negative, stifling football are killing the game when positive attacking football (with a sound defence) is more effective anyway.

[lynchbhoy]

Bit of a mad argument/debate lads!
It's all personal opinion about what you like to watch.
Scores are up but more teams play in a defensive way!

Sadly only Derry seem incapable presently of springboarding from this into attack!

Out of the past decade, in my opinion all the all Ireland winners ( plus frequent losers mayo) played with defensive setup except for cork who seem to be either traditionalist or naive!

Current Dublin and Kerry sides are as defensive as anyone with masses of men behind the ball - but they know how to counterattack and score. I'd hope Derry are paying attention!

But that's not the debating point. Teams have always played with a defensive strategy, even if that was simply mark your man. The issue is more and more teams are getting 13, 14 and even 15 players behind the ball and what that means for the game as a spectacle and for the development/skills of the sport. Nobody wants defending removed from the game but many of us don't want to see 15 players behind the ball and what that means for the game in terms of excitement and skills.

but all these aforementioned all Ireland winning (and losing) teams get most of their team behind the ball - this has been happening for the past decade - but more so since 2007.
for me personally- I enjoy the contests, the games.  its a contest either way. I want to see action with a combination of everything- skills, tactics and bravery (plus honesty- no diving or mouthing).

I think too many are looking for a utopian game that isn't required or isn't achievable.

unless you set up a new game and call it football-lite. 13 a side , no backwards passing, bigger pitch, no two consecutive handpasses, one sole and one hop, kickouts must go 40 yards...
might be fine. loads of scores. but prob boring as feck too after a while!

[armaghniac]

I have to agree with BCB (quel surprise) that the Cross game included short kickouts and disproved the need for a long kick out. I suppose the difference is that the ball was then kicked up the field in two or three foot passes, not moved sideways for 10 minutes.

[blewuporstuffed]

Its funny , that as someone that usually thinks Brolly talks a load of Sh1te, he has stolen a suggestion I posted on here about a month ago ( and also on a few occassions previous to that) and rehashed it as his own.
posted on the 17 april on the 'State of gaelic football' thread:

One rule chnage/tweak that may be worth trialling is to enforce teams to line up as per the throw in for every kickout (i.e 6 forwards, 2 midfeilders,6 defenders) and the kickout must at least cross the 45.
This would eliminate the short kickout, encourage more high feilding and make it more difficult for a team to set up defensively with extra bodies behind the ball.
Im sure someone might come up witha negative aspect of this i havent thought of, but i think if the game needs changing it should be more a tweak like this rather than just 'ban the handpass' or 'reduce the teams to 13' type thing

Im not sure its the solution, but i thought among all the rule changes being suggested it might be worth a trial at least to see how it plays out.

[BennyHarp]

Its funny , that as someone that usually thinks Brolly talks a load of Sh1te, he has stolen a suggestio i posted on here about a month ago ( and also on a few occassions previous to that) and rehashed it as his own.
posted on the 17 april on the state of gaelic football thread:

One rule chnage/tweak that may be worth trialling is to enforce teams to line up as per the throw in for every kickout (i.e 6 forwards, 2 midfeilders,6 defenders) and the kickout must at least cross the 45.
This would elininate the short kickout, encourage more high feilding and make it more difficult for a team to set up defensively with extra bodies behind the ball.
Im sure someone might come up witha negative aspect of this i havent thought of, but i think if the game needs changing it should be more a tweak like this rather than just 'ban the handpass' or 'reduce the teams to 13' type thing

Im not sure its the solution, but i thought amoung all the rule changes eing suggested it might be wortha  trial at least to see how it plays out.

So Joe gets his ideas from on here? That's quite reassuring actually, as I thought he just made them up as he went along.

[Throw ball]

Lads I will stick up the link when it becomes available but last night we gave an exhibition of how to play the game, and that involved short kickouts and all!!  Football is far too easy but is being complicated by people who do not have the conviction to play the game as it should be in case they are found out.

Maybe if Cross had to kick the ball to midfield they would not have won so easy!

On the other hand Hearty was very good with his delivery from kick outs - let and right footed.

[dferg]

Tall midfielders would not necessarily be a protected species under the new proposal by Joe unless a rule regarding the size of a midfielder was brought in.

Would a smart manager not put an exceptionally quick player on a giant oaf and therefore be guaranteed to win all their own kickouts by virtue of running into space to collect the ball between the two 45s?

All you would need is x1 speedy player and x1 goalkeeper prepared to kick cynically to that players advantage.

On the flipside if you could cynically train this performing monkey/speed demon/lapdog to break a ball off the big lad then the team with said big lad would not necessarily win all their kickouts.

You are right it could well be that a speed merchant would win every kickout but with only 2 players from each team allowed in a large zone then 1 team if they where particularly dominant in that area would absolutely hammer the other team.  e.g.  If Brian Mullans was playing now he could instruct his other midfielder to go stand away at 1 side and then be 1 on 1 for every Dublin kickout, the other team would never win a kickout.  Now if 1 midfielder is particularly dominant the oppositon manager would try to crowd that area or do something to stop it.  Tactics is part of the fascination of the game.  What about full forward, would it be illegal for the other team to have someone covering Keiran Donaghy in the full forward line or must he be 1 on 1?

If the same rule was brought into basketball and the opposition where not allowed to protect the basket, LeBron James would be guaranteed a score every time he got the ball.  Having tactics allows smarter teams to have a chance against player for player better teams.

[Zulu]

Yes, but that's what used to happen in football, now some teams simply bring everyone back into their defence which adheres to the most basic defensive reality - fill up the space in the scoring zone and it becomes difficult for your opponents to score. There's no thoughtfulness to that, no imagination being used to solve a problem like a big full forward or a fast full forward line. It is bog basic stuff and is shite to watch particularly if it becomes the norm which appears to be the case.

[INDIANA]

I have to agree with BCB (quel surprise) that the Cross game included short kickouts and disproved the need for a long kick out. I suppose the difference is that the ball was then kicked up the field in two or three foot passes, not moved sideways for 10 minutes.

I hardly think cross playing in one of the weakest club championships around prove anything . In a game between two competitive teams all teams revert to type . Which isn't a blanket defence. It's the Battle of the bulge