Author Topic: Ulsters perspective on coaching  (Read 2040 times)

Rossfan

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2018, 08:33:36 PM »
Exactly -where the ball was the action was.
Now you get the sideways and backwards uncontested passing ad infinitum 50 metres out and an army of opposing defenders 10 or 15 metres away watching them.
Meanwhile spectators are falling asleep and voting with their feet.
2018- 2 Cupeens won, 2 to go.

Jayop

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2018, 08:51:33 PM »
Exactly -where the ball was the action was.
Now you get the sideways and backwards uncontested passing ad infinitum 50 metres out and an army of opposing defenders 10 or 15 metres away watching them.
Meanwhile spectators are falling asleep and voting with their feet.

That passing along the 45 will happen in every single game. Dublin will defend their 45, Mayo will, Kerry will, Tyrone will. Every team does it and every team will face it.

The key differences between what Dublin do and what Carlow for example do is when Carlow lose the ball when attacking they will turn their backs to play and sprint back into position. Dublin will try to win the ball high, but if they don't then they will follow it back and try to get into position. It's subtle enough and it's why you hear people sometimes complain that they see Dublin with 14 men back and they never get shit about it, but they don't do that as plan A when defending, it's plan B. Mayo the same. I've not seen enough of Kerry this year to say if that's their strategy yet.

Tyrone do plan A to a degree but are not good at it and as a result end up with a lot of plan B.

Cunny Funt

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2018, 09:26:29 PM »
Anyone that thinks the football Tyrone played 03-08 was anything like the defensive style that is played by them and other sides now, need to go back and re-watch some of the videos.

Tyrone 03, brought a ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling but to say they where a defensive team back then is utter utter nonsense.
Donegal where the first team i seen to go ultra defensive,with 13/14 men behind the ball and  and play on the counter attack, with a lot of teams following suit since.

Armagh & Tyrone in the 00s were a completely different animal.

Exactly. If a team went out and played now the way Tyrone played the day they were called puke football they'd be lauded as a great attacking outfit. They pressed up on everything, tackled with 2/3 men in the opposition 45 the entire game. That was how they defended and it was a system, but it's black and white compared to the defensive systems employed by almost every county now. No players then turned and ran back to their own 45, they turned and ran towards whoever had the ball and tried to wrestle it off them.

Firsly lads the so called defensive style Tyrone are currently playing isn't working because they are conceding too much.

And lets be honest Kerry weren't held to mere 0-6 back then simply because Tyrone played some type of old fashioned one on one defending where that great ferocious hunger lead them through...

While the defensive football of today has been tweaked I don't need to re-watch some of the videos as my mind is still fresh from watching those games live where i watched a defensive team in action and the pictures of those games back then still paint a thousand words.


Jayop

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2018, 09:33:24 PM »
Anyone that thinks the football Tyrone played 03-08 was anything like the defensive style that is played by them and other sides now, need to go back and re-watch some of the videos.

Tyrone 03, brought a ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling but to say they where a defensive team back then is utter utter nonsense.
Donegal where the first team i seen to go ultra defensive,with 13/14 men behind the ball and  and play on the counter attack, with a lot of teams following suit since.

Armagh & Tyrone in the 00s were a completely different animal.

Exactly. If a team went out and played now the way Tyrone played the day they were called puke football they'd be lauded as a great attacking outfit. They pressed up on everything, tackled with 2/3 men in the opposition 45 the entire game. That was how they defended and it was a system, but it's black and white compared to the defensive systems employed by almost every county now. No players then turned and ran back to their own 45, they turned and ran towards whoever had the ball and tried to wrestle it off them.

Firsly lads the so called defensive style Tyrone are currently playing isn't working because they are conceding too much.

And lets be honest Kerry weren't held to mere 0-6 back then simply because Tyrone played some type of old fashioned one on one defending where that great ferocious hunger lead them through...

While the defensive football of today has been tweaked I don't need to re-watch some of the videos as my mind is still fresh from watching those games live where i watched a defensive team in action and the pictures of those games back then still paint a thousand words.



No-one is arguing that Tyrone defended well then, but to compare it to the defensive systems of today is idiotic. They are polar opposites. Tyrone then harried in packs all over the pitch, they completely shocked Kerry that day with their sheer intensity that's why they kept the score so low.

How can you not see the difference? In 2018 if you did what Tyrone did that day you would be called an attacking team eg. turn the ball over as quickly as possible anywhere on the pitch and get it into your scorers as quick as possible.

That picture tell you nothing. You could have had 20 pictures like that that day, the big thing being that 10 of them would have been in the Kerry half and 10 in the Tyrone half. In 2018 that would and could only happen in your own half after men feed back.

Cunny Funt

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2018, 10:32:20 PM »

No-one is arguing that Tyrone defended well then, but to compare it to the defensive systems of today is idiotic. They are polar opposites. Tyrone then harried in packs all over the pitch, they completely shocked Kerry that day with their sheer intensity that's why they kept the score so low.

How can you not see the difference? In 2018 if you did what Tyrone did that day you would be called an attacking team eg. turn the ball over as quickly as possible anywhere on the pitch and get it into your scorers as quick as possible.

That picture tell you nothing. You could have had 20 pictures like that that day, the big thing being that 10 of them would have been in the Kerry half and 10 in the Tyrone half. In 2018 that would and could only happen in your own half after men feed back.

They defended well because they had a very good system in place. Donegal had very successful system in place 2012 where they scored well 17 points per game average while they conceded much more in the All Ireland series than Tyrone 2003 but according to some they were ultra defensive team while if Tyrone 2003 was playing today they would be regarded as attacking team?


Defensive systems to me has always been about harrying in packs all over the pitch,high intensity in the tackle with the main aim is to keep the score down against good scoring teams.

The polar opposite is getting numbers back and not laying a glove on attackers giving them loads of time and room to shoot or create, matter of fact managements that do that are wasting their time having numbers back at all.

Jayop

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2018, 10:37:43 PM »
So what Carlow do isn't a defensive system but what Tyrone did in 2003 was?

What about Dublin now? They hassle and harry over the pitch to try to get the ball turned over as quick as possible. Is that a defensive system they employ?

Cunny Funt

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2018, 10:54:21 PM »
So what Carlow do isn't a defensive system but what Tyrone did in 2003 was?

What about Dublin now? They hassle and harry over the pitch to try to get the ball turned over as quick as possible. Is that a defensive system they employ?
What Carlow do is playing to a system that is getting the best possible results for them, if they played a more open game they wouldn't have beaten Kildare. They don't have quality of player that Tyrone had in 2003 obviously so its either continue to do what they are doing or go back and be the whipping boys of Leinster football.

Leinster is such a stroll for Dublin that they don't need to focus much on defensive sides of things until the All Ireland series and IMO they can make themselves as tough to break down as any team even though some pundits have the narrative that they are all out attacking team.


manfromdelmonte

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2018, 10:55:47 PM »
The athleticism of the Dublin players now is quite scary.

Their speed, power and ability to move and kick off either foot gives them a huge advantage as they have a very well planned development program all up through the clubs and into county structures.

Best of facilities
Some of best coaches due to migration  up there

It will take an exceptional team to beat them. Two games on the road could do it. But we won't see that until next year due to secret draw done earlier in the season

Jayop

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2018, 11:01:02 PM »
So what Carlow do isn't a defensive system but what Tyrone did in 2003 was?

What about Dublin now? They hassle and harry over the pitch to try to get the ball turned over as quick as possible. Is that a defensive system they employ?
What Carlow do is playing to a system that is getting the best possible results for them, if they played a more open game they wouldn't have beaten Kildare. They don't have quality of player that Tyrone had in 2003 obviously so its either continue to do what they are doing or go back and be the whipping boys of Leinster football.

Leinster is such a stroll for Dublin that they don't need to focus much on defensive sides of things until the All Ireland series and IMO they can make themselves as tough to break down as any team even though some pundits have the narrative that they are all out attacking team.

So many words and not one of the simple questions I asked were answered.

Cunny Funt

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2018, 11:40:51 PM »
So what Carlow do isn't a defensive system but what Tyrone did in 2003 was?

What about Dublin now? They hassle and harry over the pitch to try to get the ball turned over as quick as possible. Is that a defensive system they employ?
What Carlow do is playing to a system that is getting the best possible results for them, if they played a more open game they wouldn't have beaten Kildare. They don't have quality of player that Tyrone had in 2003 obviously so its either continue to do what they are doing or go back and be the whipping boys of Leinster football.

Leinster is such a stroll for Dublin that they don't need to focus much on defensive sides of things until the All Ireland series and IMO they can make themselves as tough to break down as any team even though some pundits have the narrative that they are all out attacking team.

So many words and not one of the simple questions I asked were answered.
They were answered Carlow play to system Dublin can be as tough to break down as any team with their system in place.

If you want to think that Tyrone in the business end of the championship 2003 who conceded one of lowest ever totals on route to winning that All Ireland was an attacking team while Donegal who conceding much more in 2012 was ultra defensive then knock yourself out.




blewuporstuffed

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2018, 09:44:52 AM »
Anyone that thinks the football Tyrone played 03-08 was anything like the defensive style that is played by them and other sides now, need to go back and re-watch some of the videos.

Tyrone 03, brought a ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling but to say they where a defensive team back then is utter utter nonsense.
Donegal where the first team i seen to go ultra defensive,with 13/14 men behind the ball and  and play on the counter attack, with a lot of teams following suit since.

Armagh & Tyrone in the 00s were a completely different animal.

Exactly. If a team went out and played now the way Tyrone played the day they were called puke football they'd be lauded as a great attacking outfit. They pressed up on everything, tackled with 2/3 men in the opposition 45 the entire game. That was how they defended and it was a system, but it's black and white compared to the defensive systems employed by almost every county now. No players then turned and ran back to their own 45, they turned and ran towards whoever had the ball and tried to wrestle it off them.

Firsly lads the so called defensive style Tyrone are currently playing isn't working because they are conceding too much.

And lets be honest Kerry weren't held to mere 0-6 back then simply because Tyrone played some type of old fashioned one on one defending where that great ferocious hunger lead them through...

While the defensive football of today has been tweaked I don't need to re-watch some of the videos as my mind is still fresh from watching those games live where i watched a defensive team in action and the pictures of those games back then still paint a thousand words.



That incident in the photograph took place on the Kerry 45 if my memory serves me correctly. It certainly wasnt a case of Tyrone bringing large numbers of players back into a  defensive shape.
I think your memory is coloured by pat spillanes post game comments more than actually remembering the game itself.
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Jinxy

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2018, 09:49:04 AM »
That Tyrone team were really good at swarming players and generating turnovers.
As I said before, you'd happily go back to that era now when everyone was lamenting the rise of puke football.
I think we're currently dealing with a completely different animal in terms of what constitutes 'negative' football.
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Rossfan

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2018, 10:47:30 AM »
Worst of all is a team 2 points down heading into injury time getting a free round half way turning round and kicking it back to a lad inside their own 45. ???
2018- 2 Cupeens won, 2 to go.

Cunny Funt

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2018, 11:39:34 AM »


That incident in the photograph took place on the Kerry 45 if my memory serves me correctly. It certainly wasnt a case of Tyrone bringing large numbers of players back into a  defensive shape.
I think your memory is coloured by pat spillanes post game comments more than actually remembering the game itself.

I was at the game and i don't have pay attention to what gobshites on RTE has to say on games. Doesn't matter where the photograph was taken as that was a feature of Tyrone play during that game to unsettle Kerry and it worked a treat.

When i watch a game organization in defence is what i like to see as much as anything as all the successful teams have been organized in defence one time or another. Watching games where the losing sides take a trimming because they are poorly organized in defence is a real pet hate of mine and you then have the nonsense of managers coming out afterwards wondering where it all went wrong..
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 12:05:20 PM by Cunny Funt »

Jayop

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2018, 03:41:59 PM »


That incident in the photograph took place on the Kerry 45 if my memory serves me correctly. It certainly wasnt a case of Tyrone bringing large numbers of players back into a  defensive shape.
I think your memory is coloured by pat spillanes post game comments more than actually remembering the game itself.

I was at the game and i don't have pay attention to what gobshites on RTE has to say on games. Doesn't matter where the photograph was taken as that was a feature of Tyrone play during that game to unsettle Kerry and it worked a treat.

When i watch a game organization in defence is what i like to see as much as anything as all the successful teams have been organized in defence one time or another. Watching games where the losing sides take a trimming because they are poorly organized in defence is a real pet hate of mine and you then have the nonsense of managers coming out afterwards wondering where it all went wrong..

When Barca lose the ball in an attacking situation they swarm all around the player they lost it to and try to recover possession as quickly as possible. No-one calls that a defensive team.