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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: Knock Yer Mucker In on June 12, 2018, 12:34:46 PM

Title: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Knock Yer Mucker In on June 12, 2018, 12:34:46 PM
Lads, unfortunately I have to say it, our view and approach to coaching in Ulster is badly infected. Look at our top counties, Monaghan, Donegal (played nothing yet, and like Tyrone last year wrecking up big scores against bad teams, but when they play a good team it will be a slug feast) and Tyrone all based on mass defense, Fermanagh who have had a couple of wins and Antrim, who have not, have tried ultra defense, brutal stuff altogether. Then you have Tally in Galway and Poacher in Carlow coaching this crap and you get the picture I am painting. We have lost the plot. Who is to blame, is it the coaching model being deliver from the Ulster council to all the counties through these work shops. Was it Joe, then Mickey, further polluted by Jim and us sheep all followed. Regardless we are going no where fast. There are no All Irelands at county level and club level in the short term that I can see. At least in Tyrone club football it mostly attacking football with plenty of good foot passing
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Rossfan on June 12, 2018, 12:45:16 PM
Ulster supporters are giving their verdict on ye're muck this Summer.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Snapchap on June 12, 2018, 12:49:07 PM
The idea that this is limited to Ulster is absolute bullsh1t of the highest order.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Knock Yer Mucker In on June 12, 2018, 12:50:14 PM
Has Galways attendances been effected?


Snapchat it was us who bred this baby tho
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: tippabu on June 12, 2018, 01:00:15 PM
Nobody wants to play like carlow, fermanagh and Galway did in the first game against mayo but it's effective and gets results. It's the easiest way for a "weaker"or limited ability county to be successful so it's here to stay. I would love to see fermanagh win an Ulster title but it's hard to support them with the style and especially against a Donegal team who have completely transformed their way of play and are trying a much more attack minded approach.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Jinxy on June 12, 2018, 01:06:04 PM
It's not so much Ulster that has a problem, as it is the 6 counties.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Snapchap on June 12, 2018, 01:10:15 PM
Has Galways attendances been effected?


Snapchat it was us who bred this baby tho

Indeed, but there's nothing worse than commentators from the other provinces bashing ulster for defensive football, while simultaneously turning a blind eye to the fact that every province is predominantly the same. If you copy the style of play, don't live in denial and bitch about the others.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 12, 2018, 01:27:14 PM
I have said it before, the development of the ultra defensive style of play is a response to the constant rule changes over the last 10-20 years in favour of attacking football.
Its the law of unintended consequences. The more we keep tweaking the rules in favour of the forward, the more teams and managers will try and counter act that by coming up with new defensive strategies.

The rules have change now so that pretty much any incidental contact challenging for a ball/tackling is given as a foul, if a defender commits 2/3 of these during the game he is off.
We long for this utopian idea of football where is all 1 v1 battles (Hurling is often cited as better for this reason) , but reality we have moved the rules so far in favour of the attacker that a 1v1 battle is so unfair that teams bring extra players back to counter act this.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: vallankumous on June 12, 2018, 01:31:49 PM
The first and most important thing to do is to agree who is to blame. Once this has been agreed the next step is to blame them continuously.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Rossfan on June 12, 2018, 04:00:33 PM
What rules were changed?
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: bennydorano on June 12, 2018, 04:19:33 PM
Donegal have been great to watch since Bonner has come in, so credit where it's due and don't lump them in with the other turgid shite.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: yellowcard on June 12, 2018, 04:58:07 PM
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: BennyHarp on June 12, 2018, 05:33:18 PM
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   

What’s wrong with this?
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: J70 on June 12, 2018, 05:40:22 PM
Donegal under McGuinness were great to watch in 2012 and at times in 2014, once he’d perfected the system and before it was widely adopted and countered, rendering it much less effective. Thankfully, given its obsolescence, we’re “retooling” under Bonner and following the likes of Dublin and Mayo with the intensive high press. It will likely leave us open to a hammering or two this summer as the team learns it (but hopefully still an Ulster title), but at least we are fun to watch again after the dire last two seasons under Rory.

However, there was an interview recently with Bonner where he was lamenting the permeation of the blanket through most of the clubs in Donegal, including underage. So we are not out of the woods yet.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: yellowcard on June 12, 2018, 05:49:15 PM
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   

What’s wrong with this?

It's horrible to watch, I thought that much was obvious. If I want to watch slow lateral build up play I'll watch the rugby super league but it's not a spectacle I enjoy.

It's based on the fear of making a mistake when in possession and a 'don't give the ball away at all costs' mentality for fear of what might happen when the possession is turned over. It leads to players overplaying laterally and backwards just for the sake of keeping the ball, with absolutely no purpose or attacking intent.

The worst excesses of it lead to little or no kicking until inside the scoring zone and any player who kicks it away needlessly will be hauled in front of the video analysis committee the following Tuesday to be reprimanded by management. The game is ruled by stats and over analysis, just look at the GAA section of a newspaper after a match and witness the countless stats about no of possessions, no of attacks etc etc as an example of how rigid the game has become. It has become a whole industry in itself though and players do concern themselves with stats and ratings when analysing performance. All of this stuff is mind numbingly boring however and often creates robotic pre programmed players unable to think on their feet.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: yellowcard on June 12, 2018, 05:52:02 PM
Donegal under McGuinness were great to watch in 2012 and at times in 2014, once he’d perfected the system and before it was widely adopted and countered, rendering it much less effective. Thankfully, given its obsolescence, we’re “retooling” under Bonner and following the likes of Dublin and Mayo with the intensive high press. It will likely leave us open to a hammering or two this summer as the team learns it (but hopefully still an Ulster title), but at least we are fun to watch again after the dire last two seasons under Rory.

However, there was an interview recently with Bonner where he was lamenting the permeation of the blanket through most of the clubs in Donegal, including underage. So we are not out of the woods yet.

Time does tend to dull the memory somewhat! The words 'McGuinness' and 'great to watch' should never accompany each other in the same sentence. A great manager yes, but definitely not great to watch.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Therealdonald on June 12, 2018, 05:55:09 PM
Donegal under McGuinness were great to watch in 2012 and at times in 2014, once he’d perfected the system and before it was widely adopted and countered, rendering it much less effective. Thankfully, given its obsolescence, we’re “retooling” under Bonner and following the likes of Dublin and Mayo with the intensive high press. It will likely leave us open to a hammering or two this summer as the team learns it (but hopefully still an Ulster title), but at least we are fun to watch again after the dire last two seasons under Rory.

However, there was an interview recently with Bonner where he was lamenting the permeation of the blanket through most of the clubs in Donegal, including underage. So we are not out of the woods yet.

Time does tend to dull the memory somewhat! The words 'McGuinness' and 'great to watch' should never accompany each other in the same sentence. A great manager yes, but definitely not great to watch.

Ah now yellow card, that semi-final against Dublin was great for the eyes, the only problem is the monster that it created after.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: J70 on June 12, 2018, 05:57:35 PM
Donegal under McGuinness were great to watch in 2012 and at times in 2014, once he’d perfected the system and before it was widely adopted and countered, rendering it much less effective. Thankfully, given its obsolescence, we’re “retooling” under Bonner and following the likes of Dublin and Mayo with the intensive high press. It will likely leave us open to a hammering or two this summer as the team learns it (but hopefully still an Ulster title), but at least we are fun to watch again after the dire last two seasons under Rory.

However, there was an interview recently with Bonner where he was lamenting the permeation of the blanket through most of the clubs in Donegal, including underage. So we are not out of the woods yet.

Time does tend to dull the memory somewhat! The words 'McGuinness' and 'great to watch' should never accompany each other in the same sentence. A great manager yes, but definitely not great to watch.

I suggest you go back and watch games such as the two semis in those years. Fantastic games. The Derry and Down games in 2012 featured lots of superb attacking and scores, albeit against poorer opposition. Even patches of the Kerry and Mayo games that year.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: yellowcard on June 12, 2018, 06:10:44 PM
Donegal under McGuinness were great to watch in 2012 and at times in 2014, once he’d perfected the system and before it was widely adopted and countered, rendering it much less effective. Thankfully, given its obsolescence, we’re “retooling” under Bonner and following the likes of Dublin and Mayo with the intensive high press. It will likely leave us open to a hammering or two this summer as the team learns it (but hopefully still an Ulster title), but at least we are fun to watch again after the dire last two seasons under Rory.

However, there was an interview recently with Bonner where he was lamenting the permeation of the blanket through most of the clubs in Donegal, including underage. So we are not out of the woods yet.

Time does tend to dull the memory somewhat! The words 'McGuinness' and 'great to watch' should never accompany each other in the same sentence. A great manager yes, but definitely not great to watch.

I suggest you go back and watch games such as the two semis in those years. Fantastic games. The Derry and Down games in 2012 featured lots of superb attacking and scores, albeit against poorer opposition. Even patches of the Kerry and Mayo games that year.

Back in 2012 we were still in the infancy of catenaccio ultra defence. Cork played a traditional brand of football that would be described now as naive. Donegal could look free flowing at times when the opposition didn't mirror their tactics and gifted them space in behind. I still wouldn't call it great to watch but they could rack up plenty of scores by turning over ball in the opponents attacking half and bursting through at pace. It was still mostly played through the hands however.

Dublin in 2014 was an entertaining game because Dublin tried playing total football that year but got suckered by leaving holes everywhere in defence. It became a spectacle for many because of that and because of the shock factor and anti Dubs sentiment, not because of Donegal's tactics. Dublin would never make the same mistake again andhave since completed 3 in a row with a much more pragmatic style even if it does have a good defence-attack balance. I can understand Donegal supporters being nostalgic but there was nothing pretty about their style.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: BennyHarp on June 12, 2018, 06:23:12 PM
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   

What’s wrong with this?

It's horrible to watch, I thought that much was obvious. If I want to watch slow lateral build up play I'll watch the rugby super league but it's not a spectacle I enjoy.

It's based on the fear of making a mistake when in possession and a 'don't give the ball away at all costs' mentality for fear of what might happen when the possession is turned over. It leads to players overplaying laterally and backwards just for the sake of keeping the ball, with absolutely no purpose or attacking intent.

The worst excesses of it lead to little or no kicking until inside the scoring zone and any player who kicks it away needlessly will be hauled in front of the video analysis committee the following Tuesday to be reprimanded by management. The game is ruled by stats and over analysis, just look at the GAA section of a newspaper after a match and witness the countless stats about no of possessions, no of attacks etc etc as an example of how rigid the game has become. It has become a whole industry in itself though and players do concern themselves with stats and ratings when analysing performance. All of this stuff is mind numbingly boring however and often creates robotic pre programmed players unable to think on their feet.

Whilst I agree there are a fair amount of bullshit merchants making a killing on blagging a defensive systems in club football, in intercounty football were resources are so unevenly spread amongst the counties then it’s utter nonsense to suggest that the team with less resources at its disposal shouldn’t avail of tactics to give them the best chance of being competitive. You seriously can’t prefer to watch Kerry beat Clare by 30 odd points rather than Fermanagh utilising their gameplan to turn over Monaghan? If Fermanagh went toe to toe with Donegal in the Ulster final then they’d get done over by 20 points. They just don’t have the resources to man mark McBreaty and Murphy or the fire power to out score them. So what would be your plan then to make them competitive if they don’t go defensive, try to keep the game close and grab enough scores in a low scoring game to sneak it? I for one will find that much more intriguing than a 30 point wash out.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: inthrough on June 12, 2018, 06:47:34 PM
Donegal under McGuinness were great to watch in 2012 and at times in 2014, once he’d perfected the system and before it was widely adopted and countered, rendering it much less effective. Thankfully, given its obsolescence, we’re “retooling” under Bonner and following the likes of Dublin and Mayo with the intensive high press. It will likely leave us open to a hammering or two this summer as the team learns it (but hopefully still an Ulster title), but at least we are fun to watch again after the dire last two seasons under Rory.

However, there was an interview recently with Bonner where he was lamenting the permeation of the blanket through most of the clubs in Donegal, including underage. So we are not out of the woods yet.

Time does tend to dull the memory somewhat! The words 'McGuinness' and 'great to watch' should never accompany each other in the same sentence. A great manager yes, but definitely not great to watch.

I suggest you go back and watch games such as the two semis in those years. Fantastic games. The Derry and Down games in 2012 featured lots of superb attacking and scores, albeit against poorer opposition. Even patches of the Kerry and Mayo games that year.

Back in 2012 we were still in the infancy of catenaccio ultra defence. Cork played a traditional brand of football that would be described now as naive. Donegal could look free flowing at times when the opposition didn't mirror their tactics and gifted them space in behind. I still wouldn't call it great to watch but they could rack up plenty of scores by turning over ball in the opponents attacking half and bursting through at pace. It was still mostly played through the hands however.

Dublin in 2014 was an entertaining game because Dublin tried playing total football that year but got suckered by leaving holes everywhere in defence. It became a spectacle for many because of that and because of the shock factor and anti Dubs sentiment, not because of Donegal's tactics. Dublin would never make the same mistake again andhave since completed 3 in a row with a much more pragmatic style even if it does have a good defence-attack balance. I can understand Donegal supporters being nostalgic but there was nothing pretty about their style.
What in the name of good Jesus is "catenaccio ultra defence"?
As for Dublin playing "total" football that is just nonsense.  As you say yourself they left holes "everywhere in defence" & were torn to pieces as a result. It is to Jim Gavin's eternal credit that he learned frm the experience & Dublin are now playing a brand of football that might more aptly be termed total.
As for being "pretty" that is a strange word to use to describe any GAA team & certainly any team that had Neil Gallagher, Michael Murphy & Paul Durcan in it could never be regarded as pretty.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: J70 on June 12, 2018, 06:55:48 PM
Donegal under McGuinness were great to watch in 2012 and at times in 2014, once he’d perfected the system and before it was widely adopted and countered, rendering it much less effective. Thankfully, given its obsolescence, we’re “retooling” under Bonner and following the likes of Dublin and Mayo with the intensive high press. It will likely leave us open to a hammering or two this summer as the team learns it (but hopefully still an Ulster title), but at least we are fun to watch again after the dire last two seasons under Rory.

However, there was an interview recently with Bonner where he was lamenting the permeation of the blanket through most of the clubs in Donegal, including underage. So we are not out of the woods yet.

Time does tend to dull the memory somewhat! The words 'McGuinness' and 'great to watch' should never accompany each other in the same sentence. A great manager yes, but definitely not great to watch.

I suggest you go back and watch games such as the two semis in those years. Fantastic games. The Derry and Down games in 2012 featured lots of superb attacking and scores, albeit against poorer opposition. Even patches of the Kerry and Mayo games that year.

Back in 2012 we were still in the infancy of catenaccio ultra defence. Cork played a traditional brand of football that would be described now as naive. Donegal could look free flowing at times when the opposition didn't mirror their tactics and gifted them space in behind. I still wouldn't call it great to watch but they could rack up plenty of scores by turning over ball in the opponents attacking half and bursting through at pace. It was still mostly played through the hands however.

Dublin in 2014 was an entertaining game because Dublin tried playing total football that year but got suckered by leaving holes everywhere in defence. It became a spectacle for many because of that and because of the shock factor and anti Dubs sentiment, not because of Donegal's tactics. Dublin would never make the same mistake again andhave since completed 3 in a row with a much more pragmatic style even if it does have a good defence-attack balance. I can understand Donegal supporters being nostalgic but there was nothing pretty about their style.

I said in my original comment that other teams hadn’t copped on how to counter it at that point. THAT fact doesn’t mean the entertainment value was diminished or that in retrospect it has been invalidated in terms of being entertaining. Each to his own I guess, but I don’t see how that fast-breaking, quick breaking through-the-hands style wasn’t entertaining when it worked. I certainly don’t see how you can claim that Donegal’s tactics didn’t contribute to the “spectacle” in that 2014 semi when it was their tactics that were designed to and directly enabled them to exploit  Dublin’s set-up (read Rory Kavanagh’s autobiography for the details, but basically McGuinness identified that Dublin left huge gaps all year, but opponents were not able to take advantage due to panicking and hitting early, speculative balls once they hit that open space - for two weeks he had Donegal players running repeatedly in training into open space past midfield until they learned how to carry the ball, draw the defender, then pass across to the free man).

But yeah, again, as more teams tried the blanket set up,  fast breaks became less effective or even possible, resulting in dour stalemates with teams passing back and forth across the midfield, but I’m not arguing that. If you personally don’t fast breaks with swift hand passing entertaining, fine, but that doesn’t make it so. And football doesn’t have to be “pretty” to be entertaining.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 12, 2018, 09:15:01 PM
What rules were changed?
Do you think that game is refereed now in the same way as it was in the 90s or even 00s?
Its the application of the rules that have changed more so than the rules themselves.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Rossfan on June 12, 2018, 09:26:40 PM
So your blaming "constant rule changes"  isn't right.

Maybe defenders were better coached or taught how to tackle back in the old days?
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 12, 2018, 09:31:21 PM
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   

What’s wrong with this?

It's horrible to watch, I thought that much was obvious. If I want to watch slow lateral build up play I'll watch the rugby super league but it's not a spectacle I enjoy.

It's based on the fear of making a mistake when in possession and a 'don't give the ball away at all costs' mentality for fear of what might happen when the possession is turned over. It leads to players overplaying laterally and backwards just for the sake of keeping the ball, with absolutely no purpose or attacking intent.

The worst excesses of it lead to little or no kicking until inside the scoring zone and any player who kicks it away needlessly will be hauled in front of the video analysis committee the following Tuesday to be reprimanded by management. The game is ruled by stats and over analysis, just look at the GAA section of a newspaper after a match and witness the countless stats about no of possessions, no of attacks etc etc as an example of how rigid the game has become. It has become a whole industry in itself though and players do concern themselves with stats and ratings when analysing performance. All of this stuff is mind numbingly boring however and often creates robotic pre programmed players unable to think on their feet.

Whilst I agree there are a fair amount of bullshit merchants making a killing on blagging a defensive systems in club football, in intercounty football were resources are so unevenly spread amongst the counties then it’s utter nonsense to suggest that the team with less resources at its disposal shouldn’t avail of tactics to give them the best chance of being competitive. You seriously can’t prefer to watch Kerry beat Clare by 30 odd points rather than Fermanagh utilising their gameplan to turn over Monaghan? If Fermanagh went toe to toe with Donegal in the Ulster final then they’d get done over by 20 points. They just don’t have the resources to man mark McBreaty and Murphy or the fire power to out score them. So what would be your plan then to make them competitive if they don’t go defensive, try to keep the game close and grab enough scores in a low scoring game to sneak it? I for one will find that much more intriguing than a 30 point wash out.
this. Carlow are getting it tight for their style. But it got them to a Leinster semi, which is a significant aachievement for them. To me the 6 county sides haven't progressed the tactics and kicked on, and with the players they have, they should. Donegal did, a bit, but the big boys figured it out.

I think the blanket is a spent tactic and we will see a change in the medium term away from it.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Rudi on June 12, 2018, 10:06:43 PM
Donegal under McGuinness were great to watch in 2012 and at times in 2014, once he’d perfected the system and before it was widely adopted and countered, rendering it much less effective. Thankfully, given its obsolescence, we’re “retooling” under Bonner and following the likes of Dublin and Mayo with the intensive high press. It will likely leave us open to a hammering or two this summer as the team learns it (but hopefully still an Ulster title), but at least we are fun to watch again after the dire last two seasons under Rory.

However, there was an interview recently with Bonner where he was lamenting the permeation of the blanket through most of the clubs in Donegal, including underage. So we are not out of the woods yet.

I agree, Donegal played magnificent football in 2012. Games against Kerry Cork and Mayo were a particular joy. If you get the name as an early riser you can sleep till bedtime. They played awful stuff the previous year particularly against Dublin and then got the bad name.  They still have it under Bonner despite playing a lovely brand of attacking football. Its lazy hacks giving them a bad name.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: JoG2 on June 12, 2018, 10:08:24 PM
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   

What’s wrong with this?

It's horrible to watch, I thought that much was obvious. If I want to watch slow lateral build up play I'll watch the rugby super league but it's not a spectacle I enjoy.

It's based on the fear of making a mistake when in possession and a 'don't give the ball away at all costs' mentality for fear of what might happen when the possession is turned over. It leads to players overplaying laterally and backwards just for the sake of keeping the ball, with absolutely no purpose or attacking intent.

The worst excesses of it lead to little or no kicking until inside the scoring zone and any player who kicks it away needlessly will be hauled in front of the video analysis committee the following Tuesday to be reprimanded by management. The game is ruled by stats and over analysis, just look at the GAA section of a newspaper after a match and witness the countless stats about no of possessions, no of attacks etc etc as an example of how rigid the game has become. It has become a whole industry in itself though and players do concern themselves with stats and ratings when analysing performance. All of this stuff is mind numbingly boring however and often creates robotic pre programmed players unable to think on their feet.

Whilst I agree there are a fair amount of bullshit merchants making a killing on blagging a defensive systems in club football, in intercounty football were resources are so unevenly spread amongst the counties then it’s utter nonsense to suggest that the team with less resources at its disposal shouldn’t avail of tactics to give them the best chance of being competitive. You seriously can’t prefer to watch Kerry beat Clare by 30 odd points rather than Fermanagh utilising their gameplan to turn over Monaghan? If Fermanagh went toe to toe with Donegal in the Ulster final then they’d get done over by 20 points. They just don’t have the resources to man mark McBreaty and Murphy or the fire power to out score them. So what would be your plan then to make them competitive if they don’t go defensive, try to keep the game close and grab enough scores in a low scoring game to sneak it? I for one will find that much more intriguing than a 30 point wash out.
this. Carlow are getting it tight for their style. But it got them to a Leinster semi, which is a significant aachievement for them. To me the 6 county sides haven't progressed the tactics and kicked on, and with the players they have, they should. Donegal did, a bit, but the big boys figured it out.

I think the blanket is a spent tactic and we will see a change in the medium term away from it.

Jesus wept, 2nd time in a day.. So are you freestaters gonna run with the 6 counties now instead of Ulster?!
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Jayop on June 12, 2018, 10:11:57 PM

Jesus wept, 2nd time in a day.. So are you freestaters gonna run with the 6 counties now instead of Ulster?!

Thank God someone said it. Awful comments.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 12, 2018, 10:20:04 PM
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   

What’s wrong with this?

It's horrible to watch, I thought that much was obvious. If I want to watch slow lateral build up play I'll watch the rugby super league but it's not a spectacle I enjoy.

It's based on the fear of making a mistake when in possession and a 'don't give the ball away at all costs' mentality for fear of what might happen when the possession is turned over. It leads to players overplaying laterally and backwards just for the sake of keeping the ball, with absolutely no purpose or attacking intent.

The worst excesses of it lead to little or no kicking until inside the scoring zone and any player who kicks it away needlessly will be hauled in front of the video analysis committee the following Tuesday to be reprimanded by management. The game is ruled by stats and over analysis, just look at the GAA section of a newspaper after a match and witness the countless stats about no of possessions, no of attacks etc etc as an example of how rigid the game has become. It has become a whole industry in itself though and players do concern themselves with stats and ratings when analysing performance. All of this stuff is mind numbingly boring however and often creates robotic pre programmed players unable to think on their feet.

Whilst I agree there are a fair amount of bullshit merchants making a killing on blagging a defensive systems in club football, in intercounty football were resources are so unevenly spread amongst the counties then it’s utter nonsense to suggest that the team with less resources at its disposal shouldn’t avail of tactics to give them the best chance of being competitive. You seriously can’t prefer to watch Kerry beat Clare by 30 odd points rather than Fermanagh utilising their gameplan to turn over Monaghan? If Fermanagh went toe to toe with Donegal in the Ulster final then they’d get done over by 20 points. They just don’t have the resources to man mark McBreaty and Murphy or the fire power to out score them. So what would be your plan then to make them competitive if they don’t go defensive, try to keep the game close and grab enough scores in a low scoring game to sneak it? I for one will find that much more intriguing than a 30 point wash out.
this. Carlow are getting it tight for their style. But it got them to a Leinster semi, which is a significant aachievement for them. To me the 6 county sides haven't progressed the tactics and kicked on, and with the players they have, they should. Donegal did, a bit, but the big boys figured it out.

I think the blanket is a spent tactic and we will see a change in the medium term away from it.

Jesus wept, 2nd time in a day.. So are you freestaters gonna run with the 6 counties now instead of Ulster?!

Because defensive football and the blanket is a 6 county invention that still dominates. Monaghan and Cavan didn't partake, so you can't state it's an Ulster thing.

I'm not having a pop. Just I expect more from Tyrone and Armagh than I do Carlow. The pioneers of this style should be evolving it, and they aren't. Someone referenced Catanaccio earlier. The Italian lock defence. It has been tweaked and improved for 60 years, and it always allowed  a basis for attacking flair. Donegal tried the 2.0, mixed results.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Jayop on June 12, 2018, 10:28:57 PM
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   

What’s wrong with this?

It's horrible to watch, I thought that much was obvious. If I want to watch slow lateral build up play I'll watch the rugby super league but it's not a spectacle I enjoy.

It's based on the fear of making a mistake when in possession and a 'don't give the ball away at all costs' mentality for fear of what might happen when the possession is turned over. It leads to players overplaying laterally and backwards just for the sake of keeping the ball, with absolutely no purpose or attacking intent.

The worst excesses of it lead to little or no kicking until inside the scoring zone and any player who kicks it away needlessly will be hauled in front of the video analysis committee the following Tuesday to be reprimanded by management. The game is ruled by stats and over analysis, just look at the GAA section of a newspaper after a match and witness the countless stats about no of possessions, no of attacks etc etc as an example of how rigid the game has become. It has become a whole industry in itself though and players do concern themselves with stats and ratings when analysing performance. All of this stuff is mind numbingly boring however and often creates robotic pre programmed players unable to think on their feet.

Whilst I agree there are a fair amount of bullshit merchants making a killing on blagging a defensive systems in club football, in intercounty football were resources are so unevenly spread amongst the counties then it’s utter nonsense to suggest that the team with less resources at its disposal shouldn’t avail of tactics to give them the best chance of being competitive. You seriously can’t prefer to watch Kerry beat Clare by 30 odd points rather than Fermanagh utilising their gameplan to turn over Monaghan? If Fermanagh went toe to toe with Donegal in the Ulster final then they’d get done over by 20 points. They just don’t have the resources to man mark McBreaty and Murphy or the fire power to out score them. So what would be your plan then to make them competitive if they don’t go defensive, try to keep the game close and grab enough scores in a low scoring game to sneak it? I for one will find that much more intriguing than a 30 point wash out.
this. Carlow are getting it tight for their style. But it got them to a Leinster semi, which is a significant aachievement for them. To me the 6 county sides haven't progressed the tactics and kicked on, and with the players they have, they should. Donegal did, a bit, but the big boys figured it out.

I think the blanket is a spent tactic and we will see a change in the medium term away from it.

Jesus wept, 2nd time in a day.. So are you freestaters gonna run with the 6 counties now instead of Ulster?!

Because defensive football and the blanket is a 6 county invention that still dominates. Monaghan and Cavan didn't partake, so you can't state it's an Ulster thing.

I'm not having a pop. Just I expect more from Tyrone and Armagh than I do Carlow. The pioneers of this style should be evolving it, and they aren't. Someone referenced Catanaccio earlier. The Italian lock defence. It has been tweaked and improved for 60 years, and it always allowed  a basis for attacking flair. Donegal tried the 2.0, mixed results.

What utter nonsense. Donegal took defensive football to the highest plane it's ever been seen from a top level team. Cavan were ultra defensive before Mattie took over and Monaghan are equally as defensive as Tyrone, they just had a pure class forward inside at all time that Tyrone have been missing.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: manfromdelmonte on June 12, 2018, 11:32:11 PM
Fast ball and good forwards will beat most defensive systems
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Jayop on June 12, 2018, 11:58:02 PM
Fast ball and good forwards will beat most defensive systems

And most attacking systems!!  :)
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Cunny Funt on June 13, 2018, 12:04:02 AM
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   

What’s wrong with this?

It's horrible to watch, I thought that much was obvious. If I want to watch slow lateral build up play I'll watch the rugby super league but it's not a spectacle I enjoy.

It's based on the fear of making a mistake when in possession and a 'don't give the ball away at all costs' mentality for fear of what might happen when the possession is turned over. It leads to players overplaying laterally and backwards just for the sake of keeping the ball, with absolutely no purpose or attacking intent.

The worst excesses of it lead to little or no kicking until inside the scoring zone and any player who kicks it away needlessly will be hauled in front of the video analysis committee the following Tuesday to be reprimanded by management. The game is ruled by stats and over analysis, just look at the GAA section of a newspaper after a match and witness the countless stats about no of possessions, no of attacks etc etc as an example of how rigid the game has become. It has become a whole industry in itself though and players do concern themselves with stats and ratings when analysing performance. All of this stuff is mind numbingly boring however and often creates robotic pre programmed players unable to think on their feet.

Whilst I agree there are a fair amount of bullshit merchants making a killing on blagging a defensive systems in club football, in intercounty football were resources are so unevenly spread amongst the counties then it’s utter nonsense to suggest that the team with less resources at its disposal shouldn’t avail of tactics to give them the best chance of being competitive. You seriously can’t prefer to watch Kerry beat Clare by 30 odd points rather than Fermanagh utilising their gameplan to turn over Monaghan? If Fermanagh went toe to toe with Donegal in the Ulster final then they’d get done over by 20 points. They just don’t have the resources to man mark McBreaty and Murphy or the fire power to out score them. So what would be your plan then to make them competitive if they don’t go defensive, try to keep the game close and grab enough scores in a low scoring game to sneak it? I for one will find that much more intriguing than a 30 point wash out.
this. Carlow are getting it tight for their style. But it got them to a Leinster semi, which is a significant aachievement for them. To me the 6 county sides haven't progressed the tactics and kicked on, and with the players they have, they should. Donegal did, a bit, but the big boys figured it out.

I think the blanket is a spent tactic and we will see a change in the medium term away from it.

Jesus wept, 2nd time in a day.. So are you freestaters gonna run with the 6 counties now instead of Ulster?!

Because defensive football and the blanket is a 6 county invention that still dominates. Monaghan and Cavan didn't partake, so you can't state it's an Ulster thing.

I'm not having a pop. Just I expect more from Tyrone and Armagh than I do Carlow. The pioneers of this style should be evolving it, and they aren't. Someone referenced Catanaccio earlier. The Italian lock defence. It has been tweaked and improved for 60 years, and it always allowed  a basis for attacking flair. Donegal tried the 2.0, mixed results.

What utter nonsense. Donegal took defensive football to the highest plane it's ever been seen from a top level team. Cavan were ultra defensive before Mattie took over and Monaghan are equally as defensive as Tyrone, they just had a pure class forward inside at all time that Tyrone have been missing.
Tyrone in the business end of the championship as it's called by some were on different level to others with their defensive system in 2003 v Fermanagh 0-5, V Kerry 0-6 and v Armagh 0-9 is all that was conceded on route to winning that All Ireland.

Donegal in 2012 in comparison conceded 1-10,1-11,0-13 in their quarter,semi and All Ireland final that year.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: greatpoint on June 13, 2018, 12:41:11 AM
Anyone who had Tyrone or Monaghan hyped up for All-Ireland success in recent years only has themselves to blame.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 13, 2018, 09:01:48 AM
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   

What’s wrong with this?

It's horrible to watch, I thought that much was obvious. If I want to watch slow lateral build up play I'll watch the rugby super league but it's not a spectacle I enjoy.

It's based on the fear of making a mistake when in possession and a 'don't give the ball away at all costs' mentality for fear of what might happen when the possession is turned over. It leads to players overplaying laterally and backwards just for the sake of keeping the ball, with absolutely no purpose or attacking intent.

The worst excesses of it lead to little or no kicking until inside the scoring zone and any player who kicks it away needlessly will be hauled in front of the video analysis committee the following Tuesday to be reprimanded by management. The game is ruled by stats and over analysis, just look at the GAA section of a newspaper after a match and witness the countless stats about no of possessions, no of attacks etc etc as an example of how rigid the game has become. It has become a whole industry in itself though and players do concern themselves with stats and ratings when analysing performance. All of this stuff is mind numbingly boring however and often creates robotic pre programmed players unable to think on their feet.

Whilst I agree there are a fair amount of bullshit merchants making a killing on blagging a defensive systems in club football, in intercounty football were resources are so unevenly spread amongst the counties then it’s utter nonsense to suggest that the team with less resources at its disposal shouldn’t avail of tactics to give them the best chance of being competitive. You seriously can’t prefer to watch Kerry beat Clare by 30 odd points rather than Fermanagh utilising their gameplan to turn over Monaghan? If Fermanagh went toe to toe with Donegal in the Ulster final then they’d get done over by 20 points. They just don’t have the resources to man mark McBreaty and Murphy or the fire power to out score them. So what would be your plan then to make them competitive if they don’t go defensive, try to keep the game close and grab enough scores in a low scoring game to sneak it? I for one will find that much more intriguing than a 30 point wash out.
this. Carlow are getting it tight for their style. But it got them to a Leinster semi, which is a significant aachievement for them. To me the 6 county sides haven't progressed the tactics and kicked on, and with the players they have, they should. Donegal did, a bit, but the big boys figured it out.

I think the blanket is a spent tactic and we will see a change in the medium term away from it.

Jesus wept, 2nd time in a day.. So are you freestaters gonna run with the 6 counties now instead of Ulster?!

Because defensive football and the blanket is a 6 county invention that still dominates. Monaghan and Cavan didn't partake, so you can't state it's an Ulster thing.

I'm not having a pop. Just I expect more from Tyrone and Armagh than I do Carlow. The pioneers of this style should be evolving it, and they aren't. Someone referenced Catanaccio earlier. The Italian lock defence. It has been tweaked and improved for 60 years, and it always allowed  a basis for attacking flair. Donegal tried the 2.0, mixed results.

What utter nonsense. Donegal took defensive football to the highest plane it's ever been seen from a top level team. Cavan were ultra defensive before Mattie took over and Monaghan are equally as defensive as Tyrone, they just had a pure class forward inside at all time that Tyrone have been missing.
Tyrone in the business end of the championship as it's called by some were on different level to others with their defensive system in 2003 v Fermanagh 0-5, V Kerry 0-6 and v Armagh 0-9 is all that was conceded on route to winning that All Ireland.

Donegal in 2012 in comparison conceded 1-10,1-11,0-13 in their quarter,semi and All Ireland final that year.

Anyone that thinks the football Tyrone played 03-08 was anything like the defensive style that is played by them and other sides now, need to go back and re-watch some of the videos.

Tyrone 03, brought a ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling but to say they where a defensive team back then is utter utter nonsense.
Donegal where the first team i seen to go ultra defensive,with 13/14 men behind the ball and  and play on the counter attack, with a lot of teams following suit since.

Armagh & Tyrone in the 00s were a completely different animal.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 13, 2018, 09:07:43 AM
So your blaming "constant rule changes"  isn't right.

Maybe defenders were better coached or taught how to tackle back in the old days?

Do you honestly believe that?

My point is a defender will now quite regularly get sent off for 2/3 pretty innocuous fouls in a game that may not have earned so much as a second glance in the past. Scoreable frees are now much easier to 'earn'
We have changed the game to the point where we now almost expect a 'tick' or a card of some colour for pretty much every foul given.
You can not defend in the same way as you did 10 years ago. Defenders simply cannot take the risk. This has led to the inevitable tactic of bringing extra men back to help out.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: haranguerer on June 13, 2018, 09:40:38 AM
Such a load of shite.

Most teams are playing the same way (or are trying to), or have the basis of their play in that defensive set up - the difference is the bigger counties have mastered the defensive part and are able to break at speed which makes it a different game to watch. Other counties have more laboured forward play, but it too will develop. Compare donegal 2011 with 2012 - the foundations were laid in 2011, and built on in 2012.

In the monaghan v fermanagh game, contrary to the popular narrative, there were occasions in the game where every player, except the fermanagh goalie, were in the monaghan half of the pitch. Doesn't fit the lazy narrative tho, does it?
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: haranguerer on June 13, 2018, 09:43:43 AM
So your blaming "constant rule changes"  isn't right.

Maybe defenders were better coached or taught how to tackle back in the old days?


This is one of the most ludicrous things I've ever seen on the board. Defensive play now is light years ahead of where it was in the past, even the recent past. Tackling is infinitely more disciplined, due to refs blowing quicker, and advantage, all of which makes for a much better game.

If you think the current crop of poor games is a permanent malaise, then well and good, but it isn't down to the defensive play, which has improved immeasurably - its down to attacking play not being focused on (for now)
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 13, 2018, 09:46:24 AM
Such a load of shite.

Most teams are playing the same way (or are trying to), or have the basis of their play in that defensive set up - the difference is the bigger counties have mastered the defensive part and are able to break at speed which makes it a different game to watch. Other counties have more laboured forward play, but it too will develop. Compare donegal 2011 with 2012 - the foundations were laid in 2011, and built on in 2012.

In the monaghan v fermanagh game, contrary to the popular narrative, there were occasions in the game where every player, except the fermanagh goalie, were in the monaghan half of the pitch. Doesn't fit the lazy narrative tho, does it?

Agree with you 100% here
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: sambostar on June 13, 2018, 10:40:31 AM
have to laugh at the way the game in the "old days" is viewed through such rose-tinted glasses. I flicked through and found re-run of the 1987 and 1988 AI Finals between Cork and Meath on eirSport over the last few nights. It was awful to watch. Low-scoring with lads horsing the ball as hard as they could down the other end of the pitch. The standard of free-taking was muck too off the ground - the likes of Stafford regularly not able to reach the posts with a free from the 45 off the ground. Compare that to the likes of Rock or Murphy or Beggan kicking frees off the ground currently.

Difference back then was the commentators & pundits weren't just focussed on running down the game they were watching or fixated on talking about the general "state" of the game.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Itchy on June 13, 2018, 11:21:34 AM
Such a load of shite.

Most teams are playing the same way (or are trying to), or have the basis of their play in that defensive set up - the difference is the bigger counties have mastered the defensive part and are able to break at speed which makes it a different game to watch. Other counties have more laboured forward play, but it too will develop. Compare donegal 2011 with 2012 - the foundations were laid in 2011, and built on in 2012.

In the monaghan v fermanagh game, contrary to the popular narrative, there were occasions in the game where every player, except the fermanagh goalie, were in the monaghan half of the pitch. Doesn't fit the lazy narrative tho, does it?

Agree with you 100% here

Agree too. There are slight different shades of what teams are doing but basically it is the same principle. The difference in Donegal and Fermanagh is that Donegal have the players to break with speed and power and the forwards to drive in early ball to if they can. Fermanagh dont have the same options so their counters are much slower and patient and risk adverse.

I had to laugh at the shite brolly and co were writing about the great change in Cavan from defensive football to attack. Total nonsense of the highest order.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Blowitupref on June 13, 2018, 12:15:21 PM
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   

What’s wrong with this?

It's horrible to watch, I thought that much was obvious. If I want to watch slow lateral build up play I'll watch the rugby super league but it's not a spectacle I enjoy.

It's based on the fear of making a mistake when in possession and a 'don't give the ball away at all costs' mentality for fear of what might happen when the possession is turned over. It leads to players overplaying laterally and backwards just for the sake of keeping the ball, with absolutely no purpose or attacking intent.

The worst excesses of it lead to little or no kicking until inside the scoring zone and any player who kicks it away needlessly will be hauled in front of the video analysis committee the following Tuesday to be reprimanded by management. The game is ruled by stats and over analysis, just look at the GAA section of a newspaper after a match and witness the countless stats about no of possessions, no of attacks etc etc as an example of how rigid the game has become. It has become a whole industry in itself though and players do concern themselves with stats and ratings when analysing performance. All of this stuff is mind numbingly boring however and often creates robotic pre programmed players unable to think on their feet.

Whilst I agree there are a fair amount of bullshit merchants making a killing on blagging a defensive systems in club football, in intercounty football were resources are so unevenly spread amongst the counties then it’s utter nonsense to suggest that the team with less resources at its disposal shouldn’t avail of tactics to give them the best chance of being competitive. You seriously can’t prefer to watch Kerry beat Clare by 30 odd points rather than Fermanagh utilising their gameplan to turn over Monaghan? If Fermanagh went toe to toe with Donegal in the Ulster final then they’d get done over by 20 points. They just don’t have the resources to man mark McBreaty and Murphy or the fire power to out score them. So what would be your plan then to make them competitive if they don’t go defensive, try to keep the game close and grab enough scores in a low scoring game to sneak it? I for one will find that much more intriguing than a 30 point wash out.
this. Carlow are getting it tight for their style. But it got them to a Leinster semi, which is a significant aachievement for them. To me the 6 county sides haven't progressed the tactics and kicked on, and with the players they have, they should. Donegal did, a bit, but the big boys figured it out.

I think the blanket is a spent tactic and we will see a change in the medium term away from it.

Jesus wept, 2nd time in a day.. So are you freestaters gonna run with the 6 counties now instead of Ulster?!

Because defensive football and the blanket is a 6 county invention that still dominates. Monaghan and Cavan didn't partake, so you can't state it's an Ulster thing.

I'm not having a pop. Just I expect more from Tyrone and Armagh than I do Carlow. The pioneers of this style should be evolving it, and they aren't. Someone referenced Catanaccio earlier. The Italian lock defence. It has been tweaked and improved for 60 years, and it always allowed  a basis for attacking flair. Donegal tried the 2.0, mixed results.

What utter nonsense. Donegal took defensive football to the highest plane it's ever been seen from a top level team. Cavan were ultra defensive before Mattie took over and Monaghan are equally as defensive as Tyrone, they just had a pure class forward inside at all time that Tyrone have been missing.
Tyrone in the business end of the championship as it's called by some were on different level to others with their defensive system in 2003 v Fermanagh 0-5, V Kerry 0-6 and v Armagh 0-9 is all that was conceded on route to winning that All Ireland.

Donegal in 2012 in comparison conceded 1-10,1-11,0-13 in their quarter,semi and All Ireland final that year.

Anyone that thinks the football Tyrone played 03-08 was anything like the defensive style that is played by them and other sides now, need to go back and re-watch some of the videos.

Tyrone 03, brought a ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling but to say they where a defensive team back then is utter utter nonsense.
Donegal where the first team i seen to go ultra defensive,with 13/14 men behind the ball and  and play on the counter attack, with a lot of teams following suit since.

Armagh & Tyrone in the 00s were a completely different animal.

Scores Tyrone conceded in 2003 says they were fairly good in the defensive department. Why are Tyrone conceding big scores nowadays is it because that ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling is no longer there?
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: bigarsedkeeper on June 13, 2018, 05:25:03 PM
Such a load of shite.

Most teams are playing the same way (or are trying to), or have the basis of their play in that defensive set up - the difference is the bigger counties have mastered the defensive part and are able to break at speed which makes it a different game to watch. Other counties have more laboured forward play, but it too will develop. Compare donegal 2011 with 2012 - the foundations were laid in 2011, and built on in 2012.

In the monaghan v fermanagh game, contrary to the popular narrative, there were occasions in the game where every player, except the fermanagh goalie, were in the monaghan half of the pitch. Doesn't fit the lazy narrative tho, does it?

Agree with you 100% here

Agree too. There are slight different shades of what teams are doing but basically it is the same principle. The difference in Donegal and Fermanagh is that Donegal have the players to break with speed and power and the forwards to drive in early ball to if they can. Fermanagh dont have the same options so their counters are much slower and patient and risk adverse.

I had to laugh at the shite brolly and co were writing about the great change in Cavan from defensive football to attack. Total nonsense of the highest order.

100% right. Even the Dubs - they're just better at it. If you have the players to break quickly and 1 or 2 very good players up front it looks completely different. I saw on Twitter Brolly talking about Murphy, McBrearty and Brennan up front - Murphy is closer to centre half back than full forward.

They have a point in that if Kerry, Galway or Mayo try to be defensive they'll never beat the Dubs but if any other team goes attacking the Dubs they'll be ripped apart.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Therealdonald on June 13, 2018, 06:59:39 PM
So your blaming "constant rule changes"  isn't right.

Maybe defenders were better coached or taught how to tackle back in the old days?


This is one of the most ludicrous things I've ever seen on the board. Defensive play now is light years ahead of where it was in the past, even the recent past. Tackling is infinitely more disciplined, due to refs blowing quicker, and advantage, all of which makes for a much better game.

If you think the current crop of poor games is a permanent malaise, then well and good, but it isn't down to the defensive play, which has improved immeasurably - its down to attacking play not being focused on (for now)

Hmm I think you need to be more specific when comparing defensive play though. I think group defensive play has improved with much more turnovers from 2 and 3 men surrounding the player and bottling him up.

On the other hand though I think defenders as a whole are far worse now in 1 on 1 situations than they would have been in years gone by. I agree that the rules are somewhat bent towards more attacking play, but refs have got a lot cuter about certain tricks that forwards may have had in order to buy a free.

Its a lazy analysis btw to blame this on Ulster football, or recent Ulster football, in the 16 All-Ireland's played since 2002 (not counting replays) there has been 33-406 scored, which equates to 2-25 between the two teams. in the preceeding 16 finals there was 18-354 scored which equates to 1-22 scored between the two teams.

So if an outsider was to go by just pure stats and scores, he would consider the past 16 years as infinitely more impressive and high scoring than the supposed golden years in the 90s. Just food for thought.

Dont listen to the pundits. Think for yourselves.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Jayop on June 13, 2018, 08:28:55 PM
Anyone that thinks the football Tyrone played 03-08 was anything like the defensive style that is played by them and other sides now, need to go back and re-watch some of the videos.

Tyrone 03, brought a ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling but to say they where a defensive team back then is utter utter nonsense.
Donegal where the first team i seen to go ultra defensive,with 13/14 men behind the ball and  and play on the counter attack, with a lot of teams following suit since.

Armagh & Tyrone in the 00s were a completely different animal.

Exactly. If a team went out and played now the way Tyrone played the day they were called puke football they'd be lauded as a great attacking outfit. They pressed up on everything, tackled with 2/3 men in the opposition 45 the entire game. That was how they defended and it was a system, but it's black and white compared to the defensive systems employed by almost every county now. No players then turned and ran back to their own 45, they turned and ran towards whoever had the ball and tried to wrestle it off them.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Rossfan on June 13, 2018, 08:33:36 PM
Exactly -where the ball was the action was.
Now you get the sideways and backwards uncontested passing ad infinitum 50 metres out and an army of opposing defenders 10 or 15 metres away watching them.
Meanwhile spectators are falling asleep and voting with their feet.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Jayop on June 13, 2018, 08:51:33 PM
Exactly -where the ball was the action was.
Now you get the sideways and backwards uncontested passing ad infinitum 50 metres out and an army of opposing defenders 10 or 15 metres away watching them.
Meanwhile spectators are falling asleep and voting with their feet.

That passing along the 45 will happen in every single game. Dublin will defend their 45, Mayo will, Kerry will, Tyrone will. Every team does it and every team will face it.

The key differences between what Dublin do and what Carlow for example do is when Carlow lose the ball when attacking they will turn their backs to play and sprint back into position. Dublin will try to win the ball high, but if they don't then they will follow it back and try to get into position. It's subtle enough and it's why you hear people sometimes complain that they see Dublin with 14 men back and they never get shit about it, but they don't do that as plan A when defending, it's plan B. Mayo the same. I've not seen enough of Kerry this year to say if that's their strategy yet.

Tyrone do plan A to a degree but are not good at it and as a result end up with a lot of plan B.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Cunny Funt on June 13, 2018, 09:26:29 PM
Anyone that thinks the football Tyrone played 03-08 was anything like the defensive style that is played by them and other sides now, need to go back and re-watch some of the videos.

Tyrone 03, brought a ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling but to say they where a defensive team back then is utter utter nonsense.
Donegal where the first team i seen to go ultra defensive,with 13/14 men behind the ball and  and play on the counter attack, with a lot of teams following suit since.

Armagh & Tyrone in the 00s were a completely different animal.

Exactly. If a team went out and played now the way Tyrone played the day they were called puke football they'd be lauded as a great attacking outfit. They pressed up on everything, tackled with 2/3 men in the opposition 45 the entire game. That was how they defended and it was a system, but it's black and white compared to the defensive systems employed by almost every county now. No players then turned and ran back to their own 45, they turned and ran towards whoever had the ball and tried to wrestle it off them.

Firsly lads the so called defensive style Tyrone are currently playing isn't working because they are conceding too much.

And lets be honest Kerry weren't held to mere 0-6 back then simply because Tyrone played some type of old fashioned one on one defending where that great ferocious hunger lead them through...

While the defensive football of today has been tweaked I don't need to re-watch some of the videos as my mind is still fresh from watching those games live where i watched a defensive team in action and the pictures of those games back then still paint a thousand words.

Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Jayop on June 13, 2018, 09:33:24 PM
Anyone that thinks the football Tyrone played 03-08 was anything like the defensive style that is played by them and other sides now, need to go back and re-watch some of the videos.

Tyrone 03, brought a ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling but to say they where a defensive team back then is utter utter nonsense.
Donegal where the first team i seen to go ultra defensive,with 13/14 men behind the ball and  and play on the counter attack, with a lot of teams following suit since.

Armagh & Tyrone in the 00s were a completely different animal.

Exactly. If a team went out and played now the way Tyrone played the day they were called puke football they'd be lauded as a great attacking outfit. They pressed up on everything, tackled with 2/3 men in the opposition 45 the entire game. That was how they defended and it was a system, but it's black and white compared to the defensive systems employed by almost every county now. No players then turned and ran back to their own 45, they turned and ran towards whoever had the ball and tried to wrestle it off them.

Firsly lads the so called defensive style Tyrone are currently playing isn't working because they are conceding too much.

And lets be honest Kerry weren't held to mere 0-6 back then simply because Tyrone played some type of old fashioned one on one defending where that great ferocious hunger lead them through...

While the defensive football of today has been tweaked I don't need to re-watch some of the videos as my mind is still fresh from watching those games live where i watched a defensive team in action and the pictures of those games back then still paint a thousand words.



No-one is arguing that Tyrone defended well then, but to compare it to the defensive systems of today is idiotic. They are polar opposites. Tyrone then harried in packs all over the pitch, they completely shocked Kerry that day with their sheer intensity that's why they kept the score so low.

How can you not see the difference? In 2018 if you did what Tyrone did that day you would be called an attacking team eg. turn the ball over as quickly as possible anywhere on the pitch and get it into your scorers as quick as possible.

That picture tell you nothing. You could have had 20 pictures like that that day, the big thing being that 10 of them would have been in the Kerry half and 10 in the Tyrone half. In 2018 that would and could only happen in your own half after men feed back.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Cunny Funt on June 13, 2018, 10:32:20 PM

No-one is arguing that Tyrone defended well then, but to compare it to the defensive systems of today is idiotic. They are polar opposites. Tyrone then harried in packs all over the pitch, they completely shocked Kerry that day with their sheer intensity that's why they kept the score so low.

How can you not see the difference? In 2018 if you did what Tyrone did that day you would be called an attacking team eg. turn the ball over as quickly as possible anywhere on the pitch and get it into your scorers as quick as possible.

That picture tell you nothing. You could have had 20 pictures like that that day, the big thing being that 10 of them would have been in the Kerry half and 10 in the Tyrone half. In 2018 that would and could only happen in your own half after men feed back.

They defended well because they had a very good system in place. Donegal had very successful system in place 2012 where they scored well 17 points per game average while they conceded much more in the All Ireland series than Tyrone 2003 but according to some they were ultra defensive team while if Tyrone 2003 was playing today they would be regarded as attacking team?


Defensive systems to me has always been about harrying in packs all over the pitch,high intensity in the tackle with the main aim is to keep the score down against good scoring teams.

The polar opposite is getting numbers back and not laying a glove on attackers giving them loads of time and room to shoot or create, matter of fact managements that do that are wasting their time having numbers back at all.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Jayop on June 13, 2018, 10:37:43 PM
So what Carlow do isn't a defensive system but what Tyrone did in 2003 was?

What about Dublin now? They hassle and harry over the pitch to try to get the ball turned over as quick as possible. Is that a defensive system they employ?
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Cunny Funt on June 13, 2018, 10:54:21 PM
So what Carlow do isn't a defensive system but what Tyrone did in 2003 was?

What about Dublin now? They hassle and harry over the pitch to try to get the ball turned over as quick as possible. Is that a defensive system they employ?
What Carlow do is playing to a system that is getting the best possible results for them, if they played a more open game they wouldn't have beaten Kildare. They don't have quality of player that Tyrone had in 2003 obviously so its either continue to do what they are doing or go back and be the whipping boys of Leinster football.

Leinster is such a stroll for Dublin that they don't need to focus much on defensive sides of things until the All Ireland series and IMO they can make themselves as tough to break down as any team even though some pundits have the narrative that they are all out attacking team.

Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: manfromdelmonte on June 13, 2018, 10:55:47 PM
The athleticism of the Dublin players now is quite scary.

Their speed, power and ability to move and kick off either foot gives them a huge advantage as they have a very well planned development program all up through the clubs and into county structures.

Best of facilities
Some of best coaches due to migration  up there

It will take an exceptional team to beat them. Two games on the road could do it. But we won't see that until next year due to secret draw done earlier in the season
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Jayop on June 13, 2018, 11:01:02 PM
So what Carlow do isn't a defensive system but what Tyrone did in 2003 was?

What about Dublin now? They hassle and harry over the pitch to try to get the ball turned over as quick as possible. Is that a defensive system they employ?
What Carlow do is playing to a system that is getting the best possible results for them, if they played a more open game they wouldn't have beaten Kildare. They don't have quality of player that Tyrone had in 2003 obviously so its either continue to do what they are doing or go back and be the whipping boys of Leinster football.

Leinster is such a stroll for Dublin that they don't need to focus much on defensive sides of things until the All Ireland series and IMO they can make themselves as tough to break down as any team even though some pundits have the narrative that they are all out attacking team.

So many words and not one of the simple questions I asked were answered.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Cunny Funt on June 13, 2018, 11:40:51 PM
So what Carlow do isn't a defensive system but what Tyrone did in 2003 was?

What about Dublin now? They hassle and harry over the pitch to try to get the ball turned over as quick as possible. Is that a defensive system they employ?
What Carlow do is playing to a system that is getting the best possible results for them, if they played a more open game they wouldn't have beaten Kildare. They don't have quality of player that Tyrone had in 2003 obviously so its either continue to do what they are doing or go back and be the whipping boys of Leinster football.

Leinster is such a stroll for Dublin that they don't need to focus much on defensive sides of things until the All Ireland series and IMO they can make themselves as tough to break down as any team even though some pundits have the narrative that they are all out attacking team.

So many words and not one of the simple questions I asked were answered.
They were answered Carlow play to system Dublin can be as tough to break down as any team with their system in place.

If you want to think that Tyrone in the business end of the championship 2003 who conceded one of lowest ever totals on route to winning that All Ireland was an attacking team while Donegal who conceding much more in 2012 was ultra defensive then knock yourself out.



Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 14, 2018, 09:44:52 AM
Anyone that thinks the football Tyrone played 03-08 was anything like the defensive style that is played by them and other sides now, need to go back and re-watch some of the videos.

Tyrone 03, brought a ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling but to say they where a defensive team back then is utter utter nonsense.
Donegal where the first team i seen to go ultra defensive,with 13/14 men behind the ball and  and play on the counter attack, with a lot of teams following suit since.

Armagh & Tyrone in the 00s were a completely different animal.

Exactly. If a team went out and played now the way Tyrone played the day they were called puke football they'd be lauded as a great attacking outfit. They pressed up on everything, tackled with 2/3 men in the opposition 45 the entire game. That was how they defended and it was a system, but it's black and white compared to the defensive systems employed by almost every county now. No players then turned and ran back to their own 45, they turned and ran towards whoever had the ball and tried to wrestle it off them.

Firsly lads the so called defensive style Tyrone are currently playing isn't working because they are conceding too much.

And lets be honest Kerry weren't held to mere 0-6 back then simply because Tyrone played some type of old fashioned one on one defending where that great ferocious hunger lead them through...

While the defensive football of today has been tweaked I don't need to re-watch some of the videos as my mind is still fresh from watching those games live where i watched a defensive team in action and the pictures of those games back then still paint a thousand words.



That incident in the photograph took place on the Kerry 45 if my memory serves me correctly. It certainly wasnt a case of Tyrone bringing large numbers of players back into a  defensive shape.
I think your memory is coloured by pat spillanes post game comments more than actually remembering the game itself.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Jinxy on June 14, 2018, 09:49:04 AM
That Tyrone team were really good at swarming players and generating turnovers.
As I said before, you'd happily go back to that era now when everyone was lamenting the rise of puke football.
I think we're currently dealing with a completely different animal in terms of what constitutes 'negative' football.
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Rossfan on June 14, 2018, 10:47:30 AM
Worst of all is a team 2 points down heading into injury time getting a free round half way turning round and kicking it back to a lad inside their own 45. ???
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Cunny Funt on June 14, 2018, 11:39:34 AM


That incident in the photograph took place on the Kerry 45 if my memory serves me correctly. It certainly wasnt a case of Tyrone bringing large numbers of players back into a  defensive shape.
I think your memory is coloured by pat spillanes post game comments more than actually remembering the game itself.

I was at the game and i don't have pay attention to what gobshites on RTE has to say on games. Doesn't matter where the photograph was taken as that was a feature of Tyrone play during that game to unsettle Kerry and it worked a treat.

When i watch a game organization in defence is what i like to see as much as anything as all the successful teams have been organized in defence one time or another. Watching games where the losing sides take a trimming because they are poorly organized in defence is a real pet hate of mine and you then have the nonsense of managers coming out afterwards wondering where it all went wrong..
Title: Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
Post by: Jayop on June 14, 2018, 03:41:59 PM


That incident in the photograph took place on the Kerry 45 if my memory serves me correctly. It certainly wasnt a case of Tyrone bringing large numbers of players back into a  defensive shape.
I think your memory is coloured by pat spillanes post game comments more than actually remembering the game itself.

I was at the game and i don't have pay attention to what gobshites on RTE has to say on games. Doesn't matter where the photograph was taken as that was a feature of Tyrone play during that game to unsettle Kerry and it worked a treat.

When i watch a game organization in defence is what i like to see as much as anything as all the successful teams have been organized in defence one time or another. Watching games where the losing sides take a trimming because they are poorly organized in defence is a real pet hate of mine and you then have the nonsense of managers coming out afterwards wondering where it all went wrong..

When Barca lose the ball in an attacking situation they swarm all around the player they lost it to and try to recover possession as quickly as possible. No-one calls that a defensive team.