Eighth Amendment poll

Started by Farrandeelin, May 01, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

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Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
47 (21.8%)
Yes but have no vote
73 (33.8%)
No
40 (18.5%)
No but have no vote
36 (16.7%)
Undecided
20 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 216

Voting closed: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

AZOffaly

#195
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't understand why some YES proponents are so keen on disassociating themselves from the proposed legislation that will follow this referendum as night follows day. If you're supportive of the referendum, but not supportive of the legislation, then you are codding yourself.

I don't need to make excuses for that.

Rossfan

GAAboarders who can vote
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

sid waddell

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't need to make excuses for that.
I'm not being disingenuous at all.

The question is on the 8th Amendment and nothing else.

It has been explained ad nauseum that there is no possibility, under the constitution, of legislating for abortion in cases such as rape, incest or fatal foetal abnormality.

There is no possibility under the constitution of a change to the situation where women are denied essential healthcare services such as cancer treatment if they are pregnant, or even basic healthcare such as X-rays (and they don't even have to be pregnant to be denied such - they can be denied it unless and until they prove in writing that they are not pregnant).

Under the present constitutional situation and even with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, Savita Halappanavar would still have died. That's because doctors have to wait for a woman to start dying before they can perform an abortion.

All the above cases are proof of why the 8th Amendment has been so disastrous.

A No vote is a vote for all that to continue.

For it to change, there has be legislation to introduce safe, legal abortion.


AZOffaly

#198
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:44:33 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't need to make excuses for that.
I'm not being disingenuous at all.

The question is on the 8th Amendment and nothing else.

It has been explained ad nauseum that there is no possibility, under the constitution, of legislating for abortion in cases such as rape, incest or fatal foetal abnormality.

There is no possibility under the constitution of a change to the situation where women are denied essential healthcare services such as cancer treatment if they are pregnant, or even basic healthcare such as X-rays (and they don't even have to be pregnant to be denied such - they can be denied it unless and until they prove in writing that they are not pregnant).

Under the present constitutional situation and even with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, Savita Halappanavar would still have died. That's because doctors have to wait for a woman to start dying before they can perform an abortion.

All the above cases are proof of why the 8th Amendment has been so disastrous.

A No vote is a vote for all that to continue.

For it to change, there has be legislation to introduce safe, legal abortion.

It's not though Sid. We've been through this. Do you accept that if this referendum passes, it is almost certain that a law will be introduced to allow for elective abortions up to 12 weeks, along with other measures?

If you accept that, then surely you can see that this referendum is not simply about changing the wording of the constitution, as if it were some semantic exercise. Cause and effect is in play here.

The only realistic way I, as someone who does not agree with elective abortions, can have a voice to stop that happening is to vote NO. I'm aware people will say, well you could lobby politicians to change the law back afterwards, but in reality that is not going to happen.

magpie seanie

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't understand why some YES proponents are so keen on disassociating themselves from the proposed legislation that will follow this referendum as night follows day. If you're supportive of the referendum, but not supportive of the legislation, then you are codding yourself.

I don't need to make excuses for that.

But you cannot do as you say - make amendments to an amendment in the constitution. It's just not practical. The constitution is simply not the vehicle for an issue as nuanced and complex as this. The 12 weeks is cut off point that has been decided on after a huge volume of submissions to both the Citizens Assembly and the Oireachtas committees. It's not perfect of course. Very little to do with this issue is perfect. To me it's a much better regime that we have at present which is just at best typical Irish head in the sand stuff and at worst, as we know, extremely dangerous to women's health and terribly unfair in some other circumstances.

I think on balance it's a common sense approach based on professional best evidence. Sometimes we have to accept some unpleasantness for the greater good. Not repealing the 8th amendment would be criminal in my view.

sid waddell

Question for No voters.

The penalty for abortion in Ireland is 14 years imprisonment.

Do you think this penalty should be upheld if a woman is found to have had an abortion within the state?

Should the woman be imprisoned for 14 years?


AZOffaly

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 09, 2018, 11:48:46 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't understand why some YES proponents are so keen on disassociating themselves from the proposed legislation that will follow this referendum as night follows day. If you're supportive of the referendum, but not supportive of the legislation, then you are codding yourself.

I don't need to make excuses for that.

But you cannot do as you say - make amendments to an amendment in the constitution. It's just not practical. The constitution is simply not the vehicle for an issue as nuanced and complex as this. The 12 weeks is cut off point that has been decided on after a huge volume of submissions to both the Citizens Assembly and the Oireachtas committees. It's not perfect of course. Very little to do with this issue is perfect. To me it's a much better regime that we have at present which is just at best typical Irish head in the sand stuff and at worst, as we know, extremely dangerous to women's health and terribly unfair in some other circumstances.

I think on balance it's a common sense approach based on professional best evidence. Sometimes we have to accept some unpleasantness for the greater good. Not repealing the 8th amendment would be criminal in my view.

Why though Seanie? Why can we not REPLACE the 8th amendment with a form of wording which allows for more specific scenarios to be covered, while also recognising the right to life of the unborn child. I'd be okay with saying the life of the unborn child does not supercede the life of the mother. Then legislate for that in the context of the mother's health, fatal foetal abnormalities etc.

AZOffaly

#202
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:52:25 AM
Question for No voters.

The penalty for abortion in Ireland is 14 years imprisonment.

Do you think this penalty should be upheld if a woman is found to have had an abortion within the state?

Should the woman be imprisoned for 14 years?

No. I don't. But I think a doctor that performs an elective abortion should be disbarred. I'm not trying to trivialise what a woman must be going through to even think about an abortion. I am not one of those who say this will lead to a queue outside the clinics for abortions during lunch hour, or any of that sensationalist nonsense.

All I'm saying, is that as a citizen of this country, I do not want my country to legalise abortions where there is no risk to the mother, or fatal foetal abnormalities. 

sid waddell

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:48:26 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:44:33 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't need to make excuses for that.
I'm not being disingenuous at all.

The question is on the 8th Amendment and nothing else.

It has been explained ad nauseum that there is no possibility, under the constitution, of legislating for abortion in cases such as rape, incest or fatal foetal abnormality.

There is no possibility under the constitution of a change to the situation where women are denied essential healthcare services such as cancer treatment if they are pregnant, or even basic healthcare such as X-rays (and they don't even have to be pregnant to be denied such - they can be denied it unless and until they prove in writing that they are not pregnant).

Under the present constitutional situation and even with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, Savita Halappanavar would still have died. That's because doctors have to wait for a woman to start dying before they can perform an abortion.

All the above cases are proof of why the 8th Amendment has been so disastrous.

A No vote is a vote for all that to continue.

For it to change, there has be legislation to introduce safe, legal abortion.

It's not though Sid. We've been through this. Do you accept that if this referendum passes, it is almost certain that a law will be introduced to allow for elective abortions up to 12 weeks, along with other measures?

If you accept that, then surely you can see that this referendum is not simply about changing the wording of the constitution, as if it were some semantic exercise. Cause and effect is in play here.

The only realistic way I, as someone who does not agree with elective abortions, can have a voice to stop that happening is to vote NO. I'm aware people will say, well you could lobby politicians to change the law back afterwards, but in reality that is not going to happen.

The question you need to ask yourself is:

In order to keep your particular moral view imposed on everybody else;

Are you prepared to accept that rape victims, victims of incest, mothers in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities, and mothers whose health is at risk from a pregnancy, will be forced to carry a pregnancy to term against their will?

Are you prepared to accept that women will be denied essential healthcare such as cancer services and basic healthcare such as X-rays, even if if they may not be pregant?








sid waddell

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:58:25 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:52:25 AM
Question for No voters.

The penalty for abortion in Ireland is 14 years imprisonment.

Do you think this penalty should be upheld if a woman is found to have had an abortion within the state?

Should the woman be imprisoned for 14 years?

No. I don't. But I think a doctor that performs an elective abortion should be disbarred. I'm not trying to trivialise what a woman must be going through to even think about an abortion. I am not one of those who say this will lead to a queue outside the clinics for abortions during lunch hour, or any of that sensationalist nonsense.

All I'm saying, is that as a citizen of this country, I do not want my country to legalise abortions where there is no risk to the mother, or fatal foetal abnormalities.

If a woman is found to have murdered her 12 week old baby, should that woman be sentenced to prison?

AZOffaly

If you are telling me that we cannot legislate for rape or incest victims, even under the welfare of the mother viewpoint, then yes I would have to say that I feel the numbers of people pregnant under those circumstances would not outweigh the number of healthy viable babies who would also be terminated under a blanket 12 week law. That's an horrific choice to make though, but if we cannot, as you say, legislate for the specific cases, then we should not legislate in such a way as to make it completely open.

As regards the X-RAY, are there not alternative diagnostics that would not harm a baby? What about MRIs or ultrasounds?

AZOffaly

Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:02:49 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:58:25 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:52:25 AM
Question for No voters.

The penalty for abortion in Ireland is 14 years imprisonment.

Do you think this penalty should be upheld if a woman is found to have had an abortion within the state?

Should the woman be imprisoned for 14 years?

No. I don't. But I think a doctor that performs an elective abortion should be disbarred. I'm not trying to trivialise what a woman must be going through to even think about an abortion. I am not one of those who say this will lead to a queue outside the clinics for abortions during lunch hour, or any of that sensationalist nonsense.

All I'm saying, is that as a citizen of this country, I do not want my country to legalise abortions where there is no risk to the mother, or fatal foetal abnormalities.

If a woman is found to have murdered her 12 week old baby, should that woman be sentenced to prison?

No, because I believe someone doing that has emotional extenuating circumstances. However, that does not mean I think we should just allow it as an elective procedure.

magpie seanie

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 12:08:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:02:49 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:58:25 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:52:25 AM
Question for No voters.

The penalty for abortion in Ireland is 14 years imprisonment.

Do you think this penalty should be upheld if a woman is found to have had an abortion within the state?

Should the woman be imprisoned for 14 years?

No. I don't. But I think a doctor that performs an elective abortion should be disbarred. I'm not trying to trivialise what a woman must be going through to even think about an abortion. I am not one of those who say this will lead to a queue outside the clinics for abortions during lunch hour, or any of that sensationalist nonsense.

All I'm saying, is that as a citizen of this country, I do not want my country to legalise abortions where there is no risk to the mother, or fatal foetal abnormalities.

If a woman is found to have murdered her 12 week old baby, should that woman be sentenced to prison?

No, because I believe someone doing that has emotional extenuating circumstances. However, that does not mean I think we should just allow it as an elective procedure.

But it'll just happen in the UK then or they'll order pills and take them at home. The only people you're "stopping" are those without the means to travel or import pills.....the poor and those with least support.

magpie seanie

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:57:27 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 09, 2018, 11:48:46 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't understand why some YES proponents are so keen on disassociating themselves from the proposed legislation that will follow this referendum as night follows day. If you're supportive of the referendum, but not supportive of the legislation, then you are codding yourself.

I don't need to make excuses for that.

But you cannot do as you say - make amendments to an amendment in the constitution. It's just not practical. The constitution is simply not the vehicle for an issue as nuanced and complex as this. The 12 weeks is cut off point that has been decided on after a huge volume of submissions to both the Citizens Assembly and the Oireachtas committees. It's not perfect of course. Very little to do with this issue is perfect. To me it's a much better regime that we have at present which is just at best typical Irish head in the sand stuff and at worst, as we know, extremely dangerous to women's health and terribly unfair in some other circumstances.

I think on balance it's a common sense approach based on professional best evidence. Sometimes we have to accept some unpleasantness for the greater good. Not repealing the 8th amendment would be criminal in my view.

Why though Seanie? Why can we not REPLACE the 8th amendment with a form of wording which allows for more specific scenarios to be covered, while also recognising the right to life of the unborn child. I'd be okay with saying the life of the unborn child does not supercede the life of the mother. Then legislate for that in the context of the mother's health, fatal foetal abnormalities etc.

I'm looking for something definitive on this as it seems to be generally accepted that it is not possible and I can understand why, for example you just need to look at the consequences of the 8th amendment that weren't foreseen. There was no internet, no abortion pills etc back then. Medicine has moved on greatly in that time.

sid waddell

#209
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 12:05:23 PM
If you are telling me that we cannot legislate for rape or incest victims, even under the welfare of the mother viewpoint, then yes I would have to say that I feel the numbers of people pregnant under those circumstances would not outweigh the number of healthy viable babies who would also be terminated under a blanket 12 week law. That's an horrific choice to make though, but if we cannot, as you say, legislate for the specific cases, then we should not legislate in such a way as to make it completely open.

As regards the X-RAY, are there not alternative diagnostics that would not harm a baby? What about MRIs or ultrasounds?
In your previous post you ask why the 8th Amendment cannot be reworded to say that the rights of the unborn cannot supercede the rights of the mother.

Firstly, the 8th Amendment already says that.

But in practice, it amounts to giving a 1 week old embryo greater rights than that of an actual born, adult woman. It effectvely strips the woman of her rights during the pregnancy and reduces her to little more than the status of a vessel.

I cannot agree that even if one dislikes the idea of abortion, the situations I mention should be tolerated in order to enforce a particular moral view on everybody else.

The real test of somebody that believes the acceptance of such situations is necessary in order to enforce a particular moral view is; if it was your wife or daughter or sister who had been raped, or had a pregnancy involving a fatal foetal abnormality, or a pregnancy in which there was a threat to her health, or found herself unexpectedly pregnant while undergoing cancer treatment and was denied further treatment as a result, and she wanted an abortion but could not get one, how would you react?

Would you tell her "I'm sorry, I can't support you - you should carry the pregnancy to term."

I would venture that in pretty much every situation, they would support their wife, daughter or sister, and that they would feel extremely angry that she had no rights in such a situation.

It's easy to hold a particular moral view if one has an idea that crisis pregnancies are something that can only happen to other people.

Not so easy when you imagine it happening to a loved one.