Clerical abuse!

Started by D4S, May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

DrinkingHarp


Orders to offer more to abused
The Christian Brothers accept, with shame, the findings of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse. The congregation is deeply sorry for the hurt we have caused - not just for the mistakes of the past, but for the inadequacy of our responses over recent years.
Thousands of children were abused in church-run institutions in Ireland

The Christian Brothers in the Irish Republic have announced they will review how much more compensation they can offer to victims of abuse.

The move follows last week's publication of the Ryan Report into the abuse of children in church-run institutions over six decades.

The Oblate Order also said it would devote more resources to compensate children abused in its care.

The order ran the Daingean Reformatory in County Offaly.

On Tuesday Taoiseach Brian Cowen said orders must make more payments "in view of the moral responsibility they continue to hold in these matters".

The Christian Brothers said they would enter into a six-week consultation process. It is understood that they could hand over properties worth tens of millions of euros.

In a statement the order said it recognised its "moral obligation" to former residents.

"The Christian Brothers accept, with shame, the findings of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse.

"The congregation is deeply sorry for the hurt we have caused - not just for the mistakes of the past, but for the inadequacy of our responses over recent years," said the statement.

The Irish government have also said they will implement all 20 of the reports recommendations and will meet with all of the religious orders to discuss how they can make further payments.

The Sisters of Mercy have said that they intend to accept the Taoiseach's invitation to meet them and to continue to co-operate in helping people who were in their care while children.

In a statement, the nuns make no reference to calls to provide more money.

In 2002 the 18 congregations responsible for the institutional abuse of children in Ireland struck a deal with government which capped their contribution to a compensation pot to 128 million euros.

An Assistant Garda Commissioner has been appointed to examine the potential for future prosecutions.

"Those accountable for such crimes - no matter how long ago - must also face the full rigours of the law," said Mr Cowen.

Gaaboard Predict The World Cup Champion 2014

longrunsthefox

Quote from: DrinkingHarp on May 27, 2009, 09:38:58 AM

Orders to offer more to abused
The Christian Brothers accept, with shame, the findings of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse. The congregation is deeply sorry for the hurt we have caused - not just for the mistakes of the past, but for the inadequacy of our responses over recent years.
Thousands of children were abused in church-run institutions in Ireland

The Christian Brothers in the Irish Republic have announced they will review how much more compensation they can offer to victims of abuse.

The move follows last week's publication of the Ryan Report into the abuse of children in church-run institutions over six decades.

The Oblate Order also said it would devote more resources to compensate children abused in its care.

The order ran the Daingean Reformatory in County Offaly.

On Tuesday Taoiseach Brian Cowen said orders must make more payments "in view of the moral responsibility they continue to hold in these matters".

The Christian Brothers said they would enter into a six-week consultation process. It is understood that they could hand over properties worth tens of millions of euros.

In a statement the order said it recognised its "moral obligation" to former residents.

"The Christian Brothers accept, with shame, the findings of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse.

"The congregation is deeply sorry for the hurt we have caused - not just for the mistakes of the past, but for the inadequacy of our responses over recent years," said the statement.

The Irish government have also said they will implement all 20 of the reports recommendations and will meet with all of the religious orders to discuss how they can make further payments.

The Sisters of Mercy have said that they intend to accept the Taoiseach's invitation to meet them and to continue to co-operate in helping people who were in their care while children.

In a statement, the nuns make no reference to calls to provide more money.

In 2002 the 18 congregations responsible for the institutional abuse of children in Ireland struck a deal with government which capped their contribution to a compensation pot to 128 million euros.

An Assistant Garda Commissioner has been appointed to examine the potential for future prosecutions.

"Those accountable for such crimes - no matter how long ago - must also face the full rigours of the law," said Mr Cowen.



To OFFER! more... such arrogance.  The state should go and take it off them... same as Gilligan and other criminals.

johnneycool

Quote from: The Boy Wonder on May 27, 2009, 12:05:06 AM
I've only read the first page or two here so am not responding to any post in particular. Just to say that I'm appalled at the anti-Church frenzy in the media.

There is no denying the in-human treatment and abuse that occurred but there are other scandals growing out of this: 
1) the totally unjust way that the clergy in general and religious institutions are being portrayed on radio, tv and papers
2) the lack of acknowledgement of the positive role that the majority of clergy & religious bodies have played and continue to play in eduacaion, health etc.
3) the lack of any reasonable explanation as to the enormous cost of the enquiries and redress.





If that's the only three things you are appalled by then you really have to get your priorities right.

Is it open season on the Catholic church as a whole, good priests, bad priests, Bishops etc etc, yes it is and it should remain so until they sort out their house internally, give evidence against those who sullied their good name and come clean on all the abuse that was perptrated in their name throughout the decades.

orangeman

Quote from: The Boy Wonder on May 27, 2009, 12:05:06 AM
I've only read the first page or two here so am not responding to any post in particular. Just to say that I'm appalled at the anti-Church frenzy in the media.

There is no denying the in-human treatment and abuse that occurred but there are other scandals growing out of this: 
1) the totally unjust way that the clergy in general and religious institutions are being portrayed on radio, tv and papers
2) the lack of acknowledgement of the positive role that the majority of clergy & religious bodies have played and continue to play in eduacaion, health etc.
3) the lack of any reasonable explanation as to the enormous cost of the enquiries and redress.






You can't be serious ? Where have you been ? I take it you haven't read the report at all ?

bcarrier

I cant get this song out of my head lately ....

ALL I REMEMBER
Mick Hanly

I was raised on a rocking horse, sweets and bualadh bas,
Fifty wild boys to a room,
sing lámh, lámh, eile, the dish ran away with the spoon
Black shoes and stockings, for those who say don't, blue is the colour outside
God made the world, the snake tempted Eve and she died.
Wild Christian Brothers, sharpening their leathers
Learn it by heart that's the rule
All I remember is dreading September and school

CHORUS:
And they made me for better or worse,
the fool that I am or the wise man I'll be
And they gave me their blessings or curse
it wasn't their fault I was me,
Not the one that you see.


Its over 25 years since they taught me bit I think there are probably a lot of people educated by the christian brothers who have felt that way about them....a kind of hard but mainly fair memory. Brother Garvey who is head man now taught me and i would find it hard to believe that he is anything but a decent man struggling with a most horrible and shameful inheritance. It seems to me that he is effectively and belatedly going to have to oversee the winding up of the order. Even in my day they were in decline and most of those that I came across were old men - plenty were decent but there were certainly a sprinkling of brutal and dodgy ones - on hearing what I have lately I would not like to have come across them as younger men.  

It is easy in hindsight to see that the whole thing was a recipe for disaster - this quote from yesterdays telegraph says it better than I could ...

And then we must try to understand how these things happen. Presumably many of those who joined the orders did so with an honest intention of living a disciplined and celibate life. Many of them left home at 14 to join junior seminaries, before their own sexuality was awakened and then had to learn to live with an impossible pledge to celibacy taken before they were fully formed. These boys and girls also swore obedience to their orders and were, therefore, easily manipulated.
And then they were clustered together in single sex institutions, treated like gormless functionaries by their own superiors and put in charge of vulnerable children, who served the role of the cat that the office boy kicks.

But we have seen it in prisons and concentration camps and in English public schools, that a combination of sexual repression and power produces sadism.
Our own beloved CS Lewis, in a book regarded as a spiritual classic, Surprised By Joy, describes, indulgently, the routine sexual exploitation of little boys in an English public school. These things were worse in Ireland than elsewhere, and where they were at their worst elsewhere it was often Irish clergy and religious orders who were doing it. That is the unforgettable legacy of a proud Irish missionary endeavour.






longrunsthefox

Don Baker sang a song on The Late Late Show on Friday about the 'religious' abusers... it was a haunting... if anyone knows how to paste up here

muppet

Quote from: johnneycool on May 27, 2009, 10:39:52 AM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on May 27, 2009, 12:05:06 AM
I've only read the first page or two here so am not responding to any post in particular. Just to say that I'm appalled at the anti-Church frenzy in the media.

There is no denying the in-human treatment and abuse that occurred but there are other scandals growing out of this: 
1) the totally unjust way that the clergy in general and religious institutions are being portrayed on radio, tv and papers
2) the lack of acknowledgement of the positive role that the majority of clergy & religious bodies have played and continue to play in eduacaion, health etc.
3) the lack of any reasonable explanation as to the enormous cost of the enquiries and redress.





If that's the only three things you are appalled by then you really have to get your priorities right.

Is it open season on the Catholic church as a whole, good priests, bad priests, Bishops etc etc, yes it is and it should remain so until they sort out their house internally, give evidence against those who sullied their good name and come clean on all the abuse that was perptrated in their name throughout the decades.

Yes, and Irish history doesn't fairly teach that Cromwell's campaign here brought lots of benefits to Ireland such as mapping the entire country, a much improved legal system and local government system. Using your ideology it is a scandal the way Cromwell's campaign is portrayed as genocide only.

This was the tolerance of child sex slavery by those trusted with those children, for decades. The Church in Ireland had this coming to them for the way they hid behind barristers and a weak Government.

BTW I notice the HSE announced spectacular bullshit statistics yesterday knowing that it would slip under the radar.
MWWSI 2017

Croí na hÉireann

Quote from: Declan on May 26, 2009, 04:51:24 PM
QuoteQuestions and Answers, May 25th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

Maybe the commission in itself is out of kilter, regardless of who's stumping up the bills.

One very brave and eloquent man.

This should be shown again and again to illustrate what these b**tards did. The whole lot of them should be named and charges brought against them in open court. Watched it and can safely say I haven't been as upset by anything I've seen or heard in a long long time.

It is to that man's eternal credit that he has turned into the decent, upstanding citizen that he is today. Fair play to him to have the composure to come on to national television & recount the torture he experienced. Why do we as a nation have to rely on brave citizens to stick their heads above the parapet before we take action??? Orla Tinsley, a 20 year old, had to go on the Late Late to get a new unit for Cystic Fibrosis that they were promised by the HSE the year before. You can watch it here http://www.rte.ie/tv/latelate/20090403.html Another disgrace  >:(
Westmeath - Home of the Christy Ring Cup...

orangeman

Mary Mc Aleece on the radio now being very frank about the whole situation.

Donagh

Well if everyone else is getting some money I'd like some as well please. I had the shite bate out of me by a teacher in a CCMS school when I was about 9 or 10 years old. Anyone know know where I put the claim in? If there's no cash left can I do swapsies for that painting in the Sistine Chapel?

mylestheslasher

Quote from: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 10:07:59 AM
Well if everyone else is getting some money I'd like some as well please. I had the shite bate out of me by a teacher in a CCMS school when I was about 9 or 10 years old. Anyone know know where I put the claim in? If there's no cash left can I do swapsies for that painting in the Sistine Chapel?

If you think you taking a beating in your school is the same as what went on in these industrial schools then you really have not got a clue (considering your first post on this thread you started by accusing me of not knowing the facts). What you are doing is trying to water down what happened, normalising it as if it is nothing really. Making a joke of thing. I used to think you had your head screwed on based on some comments you made on other issues Donagh but your credibility is fading fast. May I ask if you have family in the religious orders because I suspect a personal interest of some sort in this.

Donagh

Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 28, 2009, 10:17:39 AM
If you think you taking a beating in your school is the same as what went on in these industrial schools then you really have not got a clue (considering your first post on this thread you started by accusing me of not knowing the facts). What you are doing is trying to water down what happened, normalising it as if it is nothing really. Making a joke of thing. I used to think you had your head screwed on based on some comments you made on other issues Donagh but your credibility is fading fast. May I ask if you have family in the religious orders because I suspect a personal interest of some sort in this.

Firstly, no one has yet come onto this thread and explained why the Church should be held liable when the children were under the protection of the State.
Secondly, you don't know the extent of the batin I took just as you don't know the extent of the batin all of these victims took, so don't try to belittle either. The point is that if I took a batin every bit as bad as some of these victims from a lay teacher, then surely I have as much right to claim against the Church as anyone else? 
Thirdly, no I don't have any family members in any of the Orders (except a few cousins in the Orange) and nor do I have any family members in Sinn Fein. Sometimes I just like to point out the foolishness which has people gunning for people or organisations on the basis of some hysterical media reaction which seeks to protect their own agenda.   

Declan

QuoteFirstly, no one has yet come onto this thread and explained why the Church should be held liable when the children were under the protection of the State.

The state abdicated their responsibility to the religious orders and paid them for taking the children so therefore the bulk of the liability to my mind lies with the religious orders

QuoteThe point is that if I took a batin every bit as bad as some of these victims from a lay teacher, then surely I have as much right to claim against the Church as anyone else?

I took plenty of physical beatings from lay teachers in the CBS system but because I had a strong family unit and structure to my life and wasn't at their mercy 24/7 for years it didn't have a lasting physical/psychological affect on me thankfully. So in my mind I don't have a reason to claim given the culture/laws of the time was that corporal punishment was allowable. However I wasn't raped and tortured like the testimonies I've read so there's no comparison.

Quotepeople gunning for people or organisations on the basis of some hysterical media reaction which seeks to protect their own agenda.   

I'd agree to a certain extent with that quote but that's the new secular orthodoxy for you - one form of thought control replacing the old clericalism. However to my mind it's blindingly obvious that the Christian Brothers in particular have not been held to account for their participation in this shameful episode and as I've said before I think there is a strong argument for their dissolution and transfer of all their assets to the state. 

orangeman

The Ryan report will be the final nail in the coffin for some of these orders who I believe are in the process of effectively winding down.

They themselves know that the game is up and attitudes have really hardened against them and anyone who would foolishly try to defend them or dilute what went on.

In addition, I predict that we'll see prosecutions in the cases of a lot of those still living who carried out the abuse.


I was watching the TV last night late on and Demot Aherne was on about building this new jail. I think they'll need it.

Donagh

Quote from: Declan on May 28, 2009, 10:52:25 AM
QuoteFirstly, no one has yet come onto this thread and explained why the Church should be held liable when the children were under the protection of the State.

The state abdicated their responsibility to the religious orders and paid them for taking the children so therefore the bulk of the liability to my mind lies with the religious orders

QuoteThe point is that if I took a batin every bit as bad as some of these victims from a lay teacher, then surely I have as much right to claim against the Church as anyone else?

I took plenty of physical beatings from lay teachers in the CBS system but because I had a strong family unit and structure to my life and wasn't at their mercy 24/7 for years it didn't have a lasting physical/psychological affect on me thankfully. So in my mind I don't have a reason to claim given the culture/laws of the time was that corporal punishment was allowable. However I wasn't raped and tortured like the testimonies I've read so there's no comparison.

Quotepeople gunning for people or organisations on the basis of some hysterical media reaction which seeks to protect their own agenda.   

I'd agree to a certain extent with that quote but that's the new secular orthodoxy for you - one form of thought control replacing the old clericalism. However to my mind it's blindingly obvious that the Christian Brothers in particular have not been held to account for their participation in this shameful episode and as I've said before I think there is a strong argument for their dissolution and transfer of all their assets to the state. 

1. The State cannot "abdicated their responsibility" - that would be unconstitutional.
2. Not all of the 35k claimants were raped or tortured, so even came anywhere near that level of abuse.
3. The individuals responsible should be held to account but going back to point one, present day Catholics should not be punished, which they will be if the Church assets are seized.

On an aside, I'll bet the Fianna Failers are loving this as there hasn't been a mention of the bankrupt state of the country since all of this broke.