Clerical abuse!

Started by D4S, May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

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We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

pintsofguinness

Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 22, 2009, 09:04:19 PM
Tell me Iceman, where are the church getting the 128 million that they have already committed to pay? You seem to be implying that raising this type of money is Fanciful nonsense. The only thing that is nonsense is that the tax payer in the 26 counties pays for the crimes of the church to the tune of 1 billion euro. It just shows how far the tentacles of the church reach when people can here what is in this report and then come up with all sorts of reasons why the church should not pay. We don't want McDonalds near the church?!, all the churches good work etc etc. I don't care about the churches "good" work. I care about justice. I care that we the taxpayer do not pay for the churches crimes.

Now lets assume that the protestant church was responsible for this disgrace. Ask yourselves would ye all be so reasonable towards that church. Would ye f**k!

agree with that, should be at least 50:50.  Where is the church meant to get their money? Their problem.  Have the vatican sell a couple of their assets and they should have no trouble raising the cash. The Irish governnment/Irish tax payer can hardly afford what they're expected to pay either.

That said what I'd imagine the victims want is justice, I've yet to hear a reason why these c***ts (still living) can't be prosecuted and the c***ts already burning in hell (hopefully) can't be named. 
If they're not prosecuted then that's just another kick in the teeth for the victims and shows that society hasn't changed an awful lot!

As fro the brothers, have them f**k off.
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

SLIGONIAN

Article from Independant.ie

So, here's the deal. It's the 1970s. You lie awake at night, afraid to go to sleep in case they come and get you.

Not the bogey man, because you'd like to believe you're too old for such things (although that doesn't stop you staring at that strange shadow on the ceiling and fervently wishing it would go away) but rather the people from the Madonna House.

They come at night, you're told, and take away bold boys and bring them to the orphanage where they don't treat bold boys very well...

So, here's the deal. It's the 1980s. Your coach warns you and your team mates not to allow yourself to be left alone in the dressing room with a particular member of staff. Why? "You don't want to find out" is the not very enigmatic answer before the conversation is quickly changed ...

As Ireland and, indeed Britain, Europe and America reads some of the details of the Ryan Report and tries its best not to vomit with disgust, we should ask ourselves this question -- why were the vast majority of the citizens of this state prepared to allow the Catholic Church to work as a huge paedophile ring? Were people so cowed by their fear of a belt of the crozier that they were prepared to allow our children become beaten, battered catamites?

There are times when we all feel proud to be Irish. This happened perhaps most recently when England received such a warm reception in Croke Park, proving to the world, but most importantly to ourselves, that we had indeed grown up, even if only ever so slightly.

But the converse to that is that there are times when it is appropriate to feel a collective sense of shame; a feeling of gross and nauseating self-loathing.

Because the Ryan Report only articulates in gruesome, graphic detail what we all knew -- these bastards were allowed to get away with what they did because nobody, or at least not enough people, stepped in to call a halt.

Forget about the sickening, mealy mouthed apologies from politicians, forget about the deranged, defensive rantings of Catholic fundamentalists -- most of whom seem to spend their time banging off angry, paranoid screeds to journalists claiming that there was never any abuse and it's all an anti-Catholic plot -- forget about the rest of the talking heads talking rubbish.

Let's get one thing straight -- everyone knew what was going on.

And how can such a sweeping statement be made with confidence? Well, ask yourself this -- why were places like the Madonna House, Artane, Letterfrack and so many others used as an alternative to the bogey man to put manners on kids?

The fact that such dire warnings could ever be given, even though they weren't meant with malice, shows just how widespread awareness of these places was. After all, you don't threaten kids by warning them that if they don't behave you're going to bring them to the circus.

As a people, we lied to ourselves then and if we don't confront the collective responsibility we bear towards the victims then we're lying to ourselves now.

Journalism, for example, should hold its head in shame for its complicity in these crimes.

Stories of suppressed articles, veiled threats and outright censorship abound in every newsroom -- how disgraceful it is that the one industry which is meant to dedicate itself to lifting the lid on society's wrongs should effectively help to nail that lid even tighter shut.

That the Fourth Estate should be so in thrall to the Church is particularly nauseating.

For instance, when one journalist was threatened with rape by the then powerful Bishop Comiskey, she sat on that rather pertinent piece of information for more than a decade, then wrote about it when Comiskey was a disgraced, shambling alcoholic and the Church had become irrelevant. It was a classically cowardly case of too little, too late.

If that incident had been reported when it happened, it would have shaken the Church to its core. Instead, when it was published, it was just another story of clerical depravity delivered to a public which had grown weary of such revelations. We let down thousands of victims back then and we're still letting them down.

There are 800 people who are now categorically guilty of rape, violence, buggery and torture, yet not one of these degenerates has been named.

That means there are an awful lot of people who like to rape and terrorise small children. And it means they are free to walk the streets with their good name intact, while the people whose lives they have ruined stand impotently by, with the full knowledge that the State has as much contempt for them now as they did back then.

Generations of disposable, broken children have now become generations of disposable, broken adults who know that their worst childhood fears have been confirmed -- they really are, in the eyes of the Church that abused them and the system that allowed it to happen, devoid of value.

Surely, if we are to try and properly apologise and however belatedly make amends to these people who must, every day for the rest of their lives, re-live the torment they endured, then we need to start seeing prosecutions.

And we need to start making the Church hurt for what it did.

While there is undoubtedly a wider, collective burden of responsibility in our complicity to these crimes, they were carried out on Church-run premises by Church employees. And, when exposed, they were protected by the Church.

If any other organisation in the world had been guilty of such protracted and systemic abuse then heads would have rolled. A lot of them.

Instead, we can look forward to more mealy mouthed bullshit: "profound regret", "deep sadness" and all the usual meaningless, smug platitudes which pour from the mouths of senior clergy, here and in Rome, like so much sewage from a pipe.

Truly, this a time to be ashamed to be Irish.


You know I dont know how the victims felt or cant imagine, I just admire there courage to still be here and getting on which ever way they can, what would heal those wounds most, i would say justice, Well why then is there none? Why cant we arrest them now, why isnt there a couple 100,000 people marching down the dail demanding that these scum be thrown in jail? Why? 3 things, Jail, Proper Apology, I swear to God if this happened me and theprinicipal apology said, sorry IF any boys were abused >:(, I would of _____ him.; and massive compensation in that order.

Why are we now accepting the outcome of this report? Force the politions to do something...
"hard work will always beat talent if talent doesn't work"

D4S

Did anyone watch the 'discussion' on the Late Late show last night?

I kept turning over expecting it to be mentioned at some stage, sure enough the LAST 20 mins was devoted to the biggest story of the decade in Ireland.

Thought Pat tip-toed around the big issues a bit, had a priest on who agreed constantly with every point of view to seem as if the catholic church has all changed.  The man was bad with his nerves. The panel spent much of the time trying to find some sort of justification as to WHY these clergy behaved in this way. One reason being young men at 12-13 brought into the Brothers who were abused by older ones, and then they in turn carried on the abuse.  They even went on about the famine and suppressed sexuality post-famine, I was watching it thinking speak about the big issue hear of accountability + justice for victims and what should happen now!

They spoke to a woman in the audience who spoke very powerfully saying she was sad there was only men on the panel, sad there was no representative from Christian Brothers, and spoke of the victims reliving their abuse by being asked at their redress meetings what 'size' their sexual abuser was.  The whole story is just so shocking, I am ashamed of the catholic church now and whilst I really like/respect my parish priest I find it hard to bring myself to go back to Mass (I don't go every week anyway) and listen to him telling us how we should live.  DON'T live in sin....DON'T have sex before marriage etc.  Surely older priests who were not involved in this, still knew what was going on.  If they were the majority why didn't they stand up and be counted and overthrow this regime??  Where was our Primate of Ireland Sean Brady last night, surely this was an opportunity for him to speak out to the people?

The secret of success in life is for a man to be ready for his opportunity when it comes.

Declan

And we wonder why this happened - Have a read of this letter to the Times for an inkling into the mentality that allowed it to happen

Madam, – In the wake of the report concerning the child abuse suffered by many in the industrial schools and similar institutions run by Christian Brothers and nuns, much opprobrium has been heaped on the various religious orders because of their alleged involvement in abuse.

Granted, there was abuse, but please spare a thought for the countless thousands of honourable decent Brothers and nuns who are now being tarred with the same brush.

No one knows what really happened in those institutions. Many of those accused (though unnamed) are now dead and they cannot defend themselves.

I do know, and I'm sure many other people know, that the majority of the boys who were sent to those institutions were the thugs of their era. That is why they ended up there. In many cases they were from broken homes and the trauma they suffered probably resulted in their anti-social behaviour. I am not attempting to make a case for the few religious or lay thugs who took advantage of their vulnerability, but I amening to see the religious orders beiequally stating that it is quite sickng pilloried today.

The sight of the congregational leader of the Sisters of Mercy, almost in tears, having to apologise on national television for the sins of a few of her order (probably all deceased) was most appalling. That good lady was in no way responsible for any wrongdoing and I feel a solicitor might have been employed to make such a statement.


ART KAVANAGH,

Emerald Cottages,

Dublin 4.

Main Street

Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 23, 2009, 10:36:09 AM
agree with that, should be at least 50:50.  Where is the church meant to get their money? Their problem.  Have the vatican sell a couple of their assets and they should have no trouble raising the cash. The Irish governnment/Irish tax payer can hardly afford what they're expected to pay either.

That said what I'd imagine the victims want is justice, I've yet to hear a reason why these c***ts (still living) can't be prosecuted and the c***ts already burning in hell (hopefully) can't be named. 
If they're not prosecuted then that's just another kick in the teeth for the victims and shows that society hasn't changed an awful lot!

As fro the brothers, have them f**k off.

It isn't that they can't be prosecuted, there has to be a trial. They can't be named unless there is a trial.

What has money got to do with justice in these abuse cases?
Have not people got their heads twisted back to front by this lawyer compensation culture?
The compensation is a process of fobbing off the victims in the absence of justice.
It is also a process by which the legal profession take their huge slice.

If people actually listened to what the victims  of abuse wanted,  instead of this insanity that money cures all.
The abused wanted justice. This report,  ten long years in the making, is only a part of this justice.
Justice is a process,  a big part of that process  is where the  victims can testify in open court, face to face with their abuser (even if the abuser pleads guilty).
Looks like we have been doing hoola hoops and bribery in order to avoid justice.



D4S

Quote from: Declan on May 23, 2009, 12:13:26 PM
No one knows what really happened in those institutions. Many of those accused (though unnamed) are now dead and they cannot defend themselves.

I do know, and I'm sure many other people know, that the majority of the boys who were sent to those institutions were the thugs of their era. That is why they ended up there. In many cases they were from broken homes and the trauma they suffered probably resulted in their anti-social behaviour. I am not attempting to make a case for the few religious or lay thugs who took advantage of their vulnerability, but I amening to see the religious orders beiequally stating that it is quite sickng pilloried today.



Agree with you Declan that letter is a disgrace.  No one knows what really happened in those institutions he says, that was the point of the report.  What a narrow minded idiot.  As for saying the majority were the thugs of their era...that's a joke! I'm sure some were thieves, vandals etc but did they deserve the abuse they got??? I don't think so! It was a crime to have been born out of wedlock, a crime to steal a bike, a crime to steal a loaf of bread from the shop! It was all about money for the church + the state....disgusting!
The secret of success in life is for a man to be ready for his opportunity when it comes.

Tony Baloney

The whole story is nothing short of a national disgrace. The disgrace will continue unless the perverts behind the abuse are convicted and left to rot in jail. Whether they are members of Holy Orders or not, their actions were criminal as well as obscene and immoral.

If this was anywhere else the streets of Dublin would be awash with protestors demanding convictions and reparations. Instead, we'll see acres of print but very little action.

SLIGONIAN

#172
Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 23, 2009, 12:33:06 PM
The whole story is nothing short of a national disgrace. The disgrace will continue unless the perverts behind the abuse are convicted and left to rot in jail. Whether they are members of Holy Orders or not, their actions were criminal as well as obscene and immoral.

If this was anywhere else the streets of Dublin would be awash with protestors demanding convictions and reparations. Instead, we'll see acres of print but very little action.

Thats exactly what im getting at. Its astonishing what power gets you away with. Our Country is a joke, so much corruption from those in power. Get them named and shammed and thrown in jail.

On another question any of yee at mass back home today, what did the local priest have to say?

Got my days mixed up above, thought today was Sunday, as our day off is Friday and every second Saturday over here it gets confusing sometimes.
"hard work will always beat talent if talent doesn't work"

mylestheslasher

I'm sorry lads but the fact that compensation has been paid has nothing to do with chasing these f**kers and putting them on trial. Crime has been committed and what happened in terms of a civil claim and a civil settlement has no effect, to the best of my knowledge, on using evidence to secure a conviction against a criminal. I'm no lawyer and maybe there are some on here more clued into the law that can explain exactly whey these people cannot be charged with these monstrous crimes. Also, aren't the bishops and others that knew but moved these bastards around and buried truth also guilty of witholding evidence or obstruction. I hope to hear everyones report from their local mass this Sat/Sun. Let here what the clergy have to tell their flock.

Gaoth Dobhair Abu

Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.
Tbc....

mylestheslasher

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on May 24, 2009, 03:44:08 AM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.

Perhaps for the fact that some of them suffer from chronic depression, many have tried and succeeded in killing themselves and generally have had their lives ruined. There are costs associated with being ill like that and 65k goes nowhere near paying for it i'd imagine. I have to say I am disgusted that you'd come on here and your contribution is to whinge that these poor brutalised people get or seek compensation. Perhaps you might enlighten us with your solution to the problem.  Let me guess - the church says sorry and we wait for all these moaners to die and then we can just forget about the whole nasty affair.

SLIGONIAN

Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 24, 2009, 10:00:02 AM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on May 24, 2009, 03:44:08 AM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.

Perhaps for the fact that some of them suffer from chronic depression, many have tried and succeeded in killing themselves and generally have had their lives ruined. There are costs associated with being ill like that and 65k goes nowhere near paying for it i'd imagine. I have to say I am disgusted that you'd come on here and your contribution is to whinge that these poor brutalised people get or seek compensation. Perhaps you might enlighten us with your solution to the problem.  Let me guess - the church says sorry and we wait for all these moaners to die and then we can just forget about the whole nasty affair.

I dont think GD was getting at the victims, I think he was getting at the state.

Compensation is part of the healing I agree myles, of course it is, its not free to see a pyschologist or guidance counsellor etc.., im sure they are getting help this way to somehow manage to live on. You have to id say.
"hard work will always beat talent if talent doesn't work"

longrunsthefox

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on May 24, 2009, 03:44:08 AM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.

Can see what you are seeing to an extent but what else is there?  'Sorry.. now on yer way'...  It will help make life more comfortable and these people deserve all the comfort now they can get. Money don't make it right but it is something. Would be more important to have these sadists in jail.

orangeman

Quote from: longrunsthefox on May 24, 2009, 12:54:47 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on May 24, 2009, 03:44:08 AM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.

Can see what you are seeing to an extent but what else is there?  'Sorry.. now on yer way'...  It will help make life more comfortable and these people deserve all the comfort now they can get. Money don't make it right but it is something. Would be more important to have these sadists in jail.


A good starting polint alright.

orangeman

Welcome development


The personnel assistant to Cardinal Seán Brady has said those who ran the industrial school system had to take responsibility for child abuse.

Fr Timothy Bartlett said the relevant members of the Conference of Religious in Ireland who ran the schools had to pay more towards the State's redress scheme.

Fr Bartlett was speaking on Radio Ulster's Sunday Sequence programme
He also said the Catholic Church had to establish why such evil was inflicted upon the victims