Town Planning

[lfdown2]

I have been considering this a lot of late.

With Ulster Bank in the south and BOI in the north leaving a lot of our high streets, coupled with the large retail culls what will our towns and cities look like in the future.

When we do leave lockdown and move on from this pandemic our towns and cities will look significantly different than even a year ago.

What will be the future anchor tenants on a high street, is retail dead with hospitality and leisure to take over, how can we stop the ghost town vibe in the short term while towns pivot to the new industries?

[general_lee]

I don't know if you've ever been to Lurgan town centre, but if you want an example of what towns will look like, come for a visit.

Ironically though Lurgan still boasts a BOI, Ulster Bank, First Trust, Danske, Santander, Halifax and possibly a Nationwide branch?

[nrico2006]

I don't know if you've ever been to Lurgan town centre, but if you want an example of what towns will look like, come for a visit.

Ironically though Lurgan still boasts a BOI, Ulster Bank, First Trust, Danske, Santander, Halifax and possibly a Nationwide branch?

Is that not more to do with a shopping centre and retail park 3/4 miles away?

[general_lee]

I don't know if you've ever been to Lurgan town centre, but if you want an example of what towns will look like, come for a visit.

Ironically though Lurgan still boasts a BOI, Ulster Bank, First Trust, Danske, Santander, Halifax and possibly a Nationwide branch?

Is that not more to do with a shopping centre and retail park 3/4 miles away?

Yes of course it is. Post conflict there was a lot of trepidation/hostility from existing business owners in the town regarding high street names coming. The result was they either went to Portadown instead or Rushmere. By the time people realised it was counterproductive it was too late. I'd imagine most towns will begin to resemble what Lurgan looks like now - handful of high street names, a few charity/pound shops, takeaways and lots of "To-Let" signs

[trailer]

Retail is dead. It's was always a pretty terrible experience and Covid has all but finished it. Shops that will continue exist are those that offer an added value service. Clothes shops were the assistant knows what he or she is doing and can give you a personal shopping experience. Any of you parents might be familiar with that shoe shop in P'down. They measure and check the child's feet and fit the shoes appropriately. An added value. I remember getting shoes as a child in it and our children all get shoes out of it.

The way to revive town centres is by enticing people back to live in them or pushing commercial office space. Otherwise you're looking a town centres with 62 vape shops, 87 Turksh barbers and 45 coffee shops. Depressing.

[APM]

This is a major question for the future. Councils, who basically have nothing to offer, except emptying the bins, have pushed businesses out of towns through extortionate rates.  But the biggest issue is that the market has completely moved away from town centres and Covid has just hastened the flight to online.

When you go into a town like Armagh or Dungannon, the centres are now very run down and loads of empty shop fronts. It is a bit depressing to see.  All that's left are estate agents, cafes, barbers and shitty shops like e-cigarettes outlets and nail bars. Every few months you hear of another closure.   

The Government needs to work out what it wants to do with these areas.  We can see town centres becoming shit-holes before our eyes; with more potential for anti-social behaviour. 

I wouldn't like to be heavily invested in commercial property.

[themac_23]

Was reading an article, they reckoned that as the price of city centre and town centre property drops it'll be hoovered up by the likes of Amazon and other online retailers and used as distributions hubs, granted they are prob more talking about England but it is interesting and city centres will be completely different than what we've known

[thewobbler]

Looking at my own shithole town of Newry, a little vision would go a long way.

First things first: Hill Street. Once the shopping hub of our town, and a half-mile of largely pedestrianised space, with a couple of squares, that as it connects the northern side of town to the southern side, is handy got to for any citizen. But now with a shop frontage almost entirely made up of banks, solicitor offices, Polish shops and vape shops, the average person would never have reason to walk it, and even less so again after 5pm. A genuine waste of pedestrianised space.

What we should do: change the rateable values of buildings in Newry to make here, and the Mall, more amenable to certain types of business. In other words, slash rates for bars, restaurants and cafes that will relocate to Hill St, and overcharge any other type of business for remaining there. Then ensure it is pedestrian-only apart from 6am-10am each day, and further adjust how business rates work to help create an outdoor cafe culture.

Next, with regards to Monaghan St, which is now effectively one long takeaway with 200 doors, and hardly a restaurant to sit in. Adjust planning permission, across the town, to allow a maximum number of food trading units in any given hectare. The purpose here is not to put take-aways out of business, so much as to make restaurant a more attractive proposition.

Next, be realistic about making allowance for warehousing (Amazon), within bicycle courier distance from the town centre, with particular resonance for complementing the first two ideas. If a couple can visit Newry town centre for a long lunch, and have a handful of purchases dropped to their table while enjoying their meal, then this is close as we will ever get again to a high street shopping experience.

In terms of a public space, two things.

First, why Sinn Fein continue to row against a public park on the old Middlebank (opposite the Quays), is mystifying. I find it hard to believe just how lucky we are that an un-constructed area like this, with water on three sides, actually exists in a 21st century "city". It is ideal for a public space. That is would be a welcome  receptacle and meeting point for those exploring the greenways is a further bonus.

There is also little reason why Newry canal, and especially the stretch between Victoria Lock and Sugar Island, cannot be reclaimed for watersports. The more difficult part of this is the presentation of it. All my life, the canal has had connotations of uncleanliness. Some of this sentiment is real, but most if it, I believe is owed to the use of walls, drops, fences and wasteland to "keep people away". Devise an outdoor cafe culture along its banks, and people will want to use the canal for watersports.

Last but not least. If the vision for a better Newry is to be one in which people can enjoy outdoor spaces and pedestrianised areas, then I'd think it's in everyone's benefit to move as much of the "heavy lifting" retail out of the town centre as possible. By this I mean that if your shop tends to see its customers exit with a trolley, or enough baggage to necessitate car parking nearby, then your shop has no place in a new town centre. The town centre should neither be a destination that requires a car, nor necessary for eons of distribution lorries daily to restock. There would be plenty of retail space available for barbers, bakers, jewellers, pharmacies, etc. But the pound shops and the medium-sized supermarkets, they'd go. Greengrocers would go too.

Now I know this is unfair on traditional businesses, some of which have been on Hill St for hundreds of years. So the solution is to make it attractive for them to move. First, make a call for planning applications for out-of-town retail space near the dual carriageway(s). But, with the tenet that that planning application must include provision for a) a minimum number of independent retail spaces within the zone, b) that these independent retail spaces act as a self-enclosed village, connecting or near to the flagship retail stores, c) that rent and charges for these spaces are transparent, and an upward review can only occur after an exhausting and costly process.

[general_lee]

Need more town/city centre living. A bit of mild gentrification would do the world of good.

[JimStynes]

I don't know if you've ever been to Lurgan town centre, but if you want an example of what towns will look like, come for a visit.

Ironically though Lurgan still boasts a BOI, Ulster Bank, First Trust, Danske, Santander, Halifax and possibly a Nationwide branch?

Is that not more to do with a shopping centre and retail park 3/4 miles away?

And also the centre of town was destroyed in a bomb 25 or so years ago. A lot of businesses didn't recover after that. Rushmere is crap too. If i was looking to go shopping I would tend to just go to Belfast.

[Targetman]

Looking at my own shithole town of Newry, a little vision would go a long way.

First things first: Hill Street. Once the shopping hub of our town, and a half-mile of largely pedestrianised space, with a couple of squares, that as it connects the northern side of town to the southern side, is handy got to for any citizen. But now with a shop frontage almost entirely made up of banks, solicitor offices, Polish shops and vape shops, the average person would never have reason to walk it, and even less so again after 5pm. A genuine waste of pedestrianised space.

What we should do: change the rateable values of buildings in Newry to make here, and the Mall, more amenable to certain types of business. In other words, slash rates for bars, restaurants and cafes that will relocate to Hill St, and overcharge any other type of business for remaining there. Then ensure it is pedestrian-only apart from 6am-10am each day, and further adjust how business rates work to help create an outdoor cafe culture.

Next, with regards to Monaghan St, which is now effectively one long takeaway with 200 doors, and hardly a restaurant to sit in. Adjust planning permission, across the town, to allow a maximum number of food trading units in any given hectare. The purpose here is not to put take-aways out of business, so much as to make restaurant a more attractive proposition.

Next, be realistic about making allowance for warehousing (Amazon), within bicycle courier distance from the town centre, with particular resonance for complementing the first two ideas. If a couple can visit Newry town centre for a long lunch, and have a handful of purchases dropped to their table while enjoying their meal, then this is close as we will ever get again to a high street shopping experience.

In terms of a public space, two things.

First, why Sinn Fein continue to row against a public park on the old Middlebank (opposite the Quays), is mystifying. I find it hard to believe just how lucky we are that an un-constructed area like this, with water on three sides, actually exists in a 21st century "city". It is ideal for a public space. That is would be a welcome  receptacle and meeting point for those exploring the greenways is a further bonus.

There is also little reason why Newry canal, and especially the stretch between Victoria Lock and Sugar Island, cannot be reclaimed for watersports. The more difficult part of this is the presentation of it. All my life, the canal has had connotations of uncleanliness. Some of this sentiment is real, but most if it, I believe is owed to the use of walls, drops, fences and wasteland to "keep people away". Devise an outdoor cafe culture along its banks, and people will want to use the canal for watersports.

Last but not least. If the vision for a better Newry is to be one in which people can enjoy outdoor spaces and pedestrianised areas, then I'd think it's in everyone's benefit to move as much of the "heavy lifting" retail out of the town centre as possible. By this I mean that if your shop tends to see its customers exit with a trolley, or enough baggage to necessitate car parking nearby, then your shop has no place in a new town centre. The town centre should neither be a destination that requires a car, nor necessary for eons of distribution lorries daily to restock. There would be plenty of retail space available for barbers, bakers, jewellers, pharmacies, etc. But the pound shops and the medium-sized supermarkets, they'd go. Greengrocers would go too.

Now I know this is unfair on traditional businesses, some of which have been on Hill St for hundreds of years. So the solution is to make it attractive for them to move. First, make a call for planning applications for out-of-town retail space near the dual carriageway(s). But, with the tenet that that planning application must include provision for a) a minimum number of independent retail spaces within the zone, b) that these independent retail spaces act as a self-enclosed village, connecting or near to the flagship retail stores, c) that rent and charges for these spaces are transparent, and an upward review can only occur after an exhausting and costly process.

Shithole really? I wouldn't agree, having went to school in Newry in the 80's I have to say there has been a lot of changes for the better, its not a bad aul place now

[Milltown Row2]

Anyone think that parking has an impact in attracting people to town?

The cost of parking is horrendous. Belfast is a ghost town right now, Debenhams Topshop and a raft of other big retailers have gone for good. Who will fill those spots? I can see two bank buildings from my work that have closed it's doors. The first trust is closed over 2 years now

What new bars restaurants would gamble in opening up now with the threat of closures due to possible future lockdowns?

[nrico2006]

I don't know if you've ever been to Lurgan town centre, but if you want an example of what towns will look like, come for a visit.

Ironically though Lurgan still boasts a BOI, Ulster Bank, First Trust, Danske, Santander, Halifax and possibly a Nationwide branch?

Is that not more to do with a shopping centre and retail park 3/4 miles away?

Yes of course it is. Post conflict there was a lot of trepidation/hostility from existing business owners in the town regarding high street names coming. The result was they either went to Portadown instead or Rushmere. By the time people realised it was counterproductive it was too late. I'd imagine most towns will begin to resemble what Lurgan looks like now - handful of high street names, a few charity/pound shops, takeaways and lots of "To-Let" signs

In saying that, Portadown is the same, dead town.  Funny enough though, Banbridge seems to have a bit of life about it even though it has that outlet and retail park beside it.

[thewobbler]

Not sure I'd agree Targetman. Newry is tidier than it used to be, no doubt. But it must have the most atrocious public facilities of any large town in the wee six. There's no park, no demonstrable town centre or civic space, almost no playing fields. We live in a part of the world where your rates seemingly have only two purposes: refuse collection, and council sick pay.

[RadioGAAGAA]

Was reading an article, they reckoned that as the price of city centre and town centre property drops it'll be hoovered up by the likes of Amazon and other online retailers and used as distributions hubs, granted they are prob more talking about England but it is interesting and city centres will be completely different than what we've known

No chance. Town centres are among the most difficult to access for freight in the country.

How do you think Mr Peeler will react if 2 dozen Amazon vans pull up onto the kerbs on Donegall square and stick on the flashers?