The IRISH RUGBY thread

[Walter Cronc]

Munster fans jeering Keatley when he came off. Bad form that!!!

The lad is obviously out of his depth. Don't get me started on Foley as a coach.

Arrogance and greed from the Munster hierarchy over the last few years has led to this.

[AZOffaly]

Munster fans jeering Keatley when he came off. Bad form that!!!

The lad is obviously out of his depth. Don't get me started on Foley as a coach.

Arrogance and greed from the Munster hierarchy over the last few years has led to this.

Yep. that's right. And complacency. They just assume the bandwagon will roll on forever. This team is genuinely loved down here, but the hard core support back in the early Celtic League games in the old Thomond Park was always 4 or 5k. The big days were the Interpros and the visit of the English and French teams. If Munster become uncompetitive, and Leicester and Clermont have been very comfortable now in back to back years, the crowd will fall back towards that number again.

As for the jeering of Keatley, it was shocking. I can't understand the thinking there at all, and as I've said, I've never heard it there before. There'd be mutterings about Duncan Williams and Keately (and others) in the past, but never anything like that.

I've heard people say the jeering was aimed at Foley for waiting so long to take off a lad that was obviously struggling, but I have my doubts, let's leave it at that!

[seafoid]

Munster fans jeering Keatley when he came off. Bad form that!!!

The lad is obviously out of his depth. Don't get me started on Foley as a coach.

Arrogance and greed from the Munster hierarchy over the last few years has led to this.

Yep. that's right. And complacency. They just assume the bandwagon will roll on forever. This team is genuinely loved down here, but the hard core support back in the early Celtic League games in the old Thomond Park was always 4 or 5k. The big days were the Interpros and the visit of the English and French teams. If Munster become uncompetitive, and Leicester and Clermont have been very comfortable now in back to back years, the crowd will fall back towards that number again.

As for the jeering of Keatley, it was shocking. I can't understand the thinking there at all, and as I've said, I've never heard it there before. There'd be mutterings about Duncan Williams and Keately (and others) in the past, but never anything like that.

I've heard people say the jeering was aimed at Foley for waiting so long to take off a lad that was obviously struggling, but I have my doubts, let's leave it at that!

Every successful team has to adjust eventually to reduced expectations, as we all know , quite painfully. But the money issue is disfiguring rugby and will make getting back to the top harder for Munster

[AZOffaly]

When you are at a financial disadvantage, you have to spend the money you have wisely, and you have to invest in youth coming through. You also have to maximise the resources you have and coach the players to be the best they can be, in a gameplan that suits them.

In Munster they are spending money crazily (I've heard 500k p.a. for Saili!), they are getting in short termers on big enough wedges of cash, rather than giving younger lads a go, they are failing to develop enough that they feel confident can step up in a short term role, and the game they are trying to play is defensively weak and offensively predictable, stale and slow.

[Walter Cronc]

When you are at a financial disadvantage, you have to spend the money you have wisely, and you have to invest in youth coming through. You also have to maximise the resources you have and coach the players to be the best they can be, in a gameplan that suits them.

In Munster they are spending money crazily (I've heard 500k p.a. for Saili!), they are getting in short termers on big enough wedges of cash, rather than giving younger lads a go, they are failing to develop enough that they feel confident can step up in a short term role, and the game they are trying to play is defensively weak and offensively predictable, stale and slow.

Jeez that sounds fairly bleak! Definitely the responsibility of the hierarchy. Yes we all know each province has to look after its interests but I definitely feel more could be done to spread the player pool. Personally I would love to see both Madigan and Henshaw at Munster!

Could something along the lines of a draft system work in Irish rugby. Young players centrally contracted and sent top provinces where there is a shortfall in certain playing positions? Say for example Connacht lost Henshaw to Leinster they would get a couple of top younger players in return.

Maybe I'm waffling but just a thought.

[AZOffaly]

The single biggest issue is the coaching. The players they have are not good enough in key areas to be a powerhouse, but they are good enough to be Munster at home at least. Conor Murray is not providing leadership either, and the imports haven't clicked. That said, there are some good players there, the team is just not functioning in any sort of recognisable pattern. That Leicester game wasn't lost because of money or lack of players. It wasn't even lost because Keatley missed a sitter and a terrible tackle. It was lost because it is so easy to defend against Munster now that any half decent team will put them under pressure.

It's not as bleak as I might have painted, but it is trending that way and the underlying issues, which I mentioned, have to be sorted out. the quickest to sort out is the coaching, unfortunately.

[Walter Cronc]

Who would you get in? Cant see it being changed at this stage. Would love Conor O'Shea or Bernard Jackman to get a chance at an Irish province, whether that's Munster or Leinster!

[AZOffaly]

Conor O'Shea would be the sexy choice, but I can't see it happening. Why would he do it?  Pat Lam would probably be an ideal fit because of his experience with getting limited resources thrown his way, and making the best of them, but I'd hate to see Connacht getting shafted like that. Plus if Lam is to move, the IRFU will probably send him to Dublin. Mike Catt might be an option as a backs coach.

[Walter Cronc]

Jackman has done well with very limited resources at Grenoble. Deserves a shot in my book. Probably should have got the Leinster gig over Cullen!

[mikehunt]

Sexton has been playing poorly for the best part of a year at this stage.  I hope for his own sake it's a form issue and nothing concussion related.  Might be no harm if he took a 6 month sabbatical from the game as per Dan Carter a few years ago but unlikely to happen I guess.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-johnny-sexton-burdened-by-weight-of-expectation-1.2466435

They're trying to charge me to read a Jerry Thornley "article"? Let me guess, Jerry blames France, England or Southern hemisphere for Ireland player/team being sh!t?

[muppet]

Sexton has been playing poorly for the best part of a year at this stage.  I hope for his own sake it's a form issue and nothing concussion related.  Might be no harm if he took a 6 month sabbatical from the game as per Dan Carter a few years ago but unlikely to happen I guess.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-johnny-sexton-burdened-by-weight-of-expectation-1.2466435

They're trying to charge me to read a Jerry Thornley "article"? Let me guess, Jerry blames France, England or Southern hemisphere for Ireland player/team being sh!t?

Not quite, he blames the Government and in particular Fine Gael and their Minister for Sport.

[Applesisapples]

The single biggest issue is the coaching. The players they have are not good enough in key areas to be a powerhouse, but they are good enough to be Munster at home at least. Conor Murray is not providing leadership either, and the imports haven't clicked. That said, there are some good players there, the team is just not functioning in any sort of recognisable pattern. That Leicester game wasn't lost because of money or lack of players. It wasn't even lost because Keatley missed a sitter and a terrible tackle. It was lost because it is so easy to defend against Munster now that any half decent team will put them under pressure.

It's not as bleak as I might have painted, but it is trending that way and the underlying issues, which I mentioned, have to be sorted out. the quickest to sort out is the coaching, unfortunately.

I've never played the game but watch all the Provinces avidly it is obvious that what you are saying is on the money.

[Dinny Breen]

Munster fans were built up as some sort of mystical entity by the media when phrases such as "The Holy Grail" "The Brave and the Faithful" "Irish by birth Munster by the grace of God" etc were all the rage and cheerleaders such as Thornley, McQueen, Ward etc couldn't gush enough about Munster. And the Munster fans lapped it up and in fairness as bangwagons go it was pretty impressive and helped establish the Heineken Cup as a meaningful competition. Now I love a bit of Munster fan bashing but this week was ridiculous, our culture particular in sport is very bi-polar and we are open to knee-jerk reactions including extreme criticism of our own players. Munster fans just showed they are the exact same as Kildare fans (Martin Lynch) Irish soccer fans (Roy Keane), they get frustrated and like all fans struggle as a collective to express that other than booing and jeering. Keatley is a professional and as I say to any young player Wolves don't stay awake at night wondering what the sheep are thinking about, if booing and public criticism affects him he is in the wrong profession.

Kiss and Cullen get a pass as it is their first year, Foley got his pass last year and if I was to pin-point the problem with Munster I would start there. He blamed the ref (ridiculous penalty, but you move on control the controllables), he blamed the players but I would have more respect if blamed himself and deflected from the players. When I see Hanrahan play pretty well opposite Carter then you have to ask has Foley a clue or is just trying to replicate what was successful 10 years ago...

[Dinny Breen]

Jackman has done well with very limited resources at Grenoble. Deserves a shot in my book. Probably should have got the Leinster gig over Cullen!

He's a bluffer.

[screenexile]

What do we think about Ulster with Kiss? That's a pretty impressive result against a fairly strong Toulouse pack. From what I can see Ulster are best placed of the Provinces at the minute with the systems they have in place and the young players coming through as well as having the most experienced coach in all the Provinces.

They still have a lot of quality there and if they can hold on to Pienaar and bring Olding/Marshall/McCloskey/Jackson through they have a decent back line as well. Add to that Piutau coming next year and they could be formidable.

It will be interesting to see if they can secure one of the best Runner up spots. They won't win it but there should at least be one Irish team challenging the big guns!