11-Plus Proposal

Started by spiritof91and94, May 16, 2008, 12:58:46 PM

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RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:12:23 PM
Can you point me in the direction of this stronger evidence ?

Are you for real?

Go compare GCSE and A-level results from NI to England, and run your comparison back as far as you like.
i usse an speelchekor

FermGael

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 08:42:16 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:12:23 PM
Can you point me in the direction of this stronger evidence ?

Are you for real?

Go compare GCSE and A-level results from NI to England, and run your comparison back as far as you like.

Why are you comparing the results to England?

I would be more interested in looking at Finland. 
Been widely acknowledged as the best education system in the world.

If your stronger evidence is results of English schools then you are setting the bar fairly low internationally.
But don't look at the number of pupils leaving schools here compared to England with no GCSE's or less than 5 GCSE's or less than 5 GCSE's including Math's and English. 

Now if you can send me evidence that setting produces better results for all pupils I will be happy to have a look....


Wanted.  Forwards to take frees.
Not fussy.  Any sort of ability will be considered

Eamonnca1

Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 09:32:46 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 08:42:16 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:12:23 PM
Can you point me in the direction of this stronger evidence ?

Are you for real?

Go compare GCSE and A-level results from NI to England, and run your comparison back as far as you like.

Why are you comparing the results to England?

I would be more interested in looking at Finland. 
Been widely acknowledged as the best education system in the world.

If your stronger evidence is results of English schools then you are setting the bar fairly low internationally.
But don't look at the number of pupils leaving schools here compared to England with no GCSE's or less than 5 GCSE's or less than 5 GCSE's including Math's and English. 

Now if you can send me evidence that setting produces better results for all pupils I will be happy to have a look....

Good article here about the Finnish system:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-schools-successful-49859555/

I hear their language is very regular and easy for kids to learn, but there are still some good lessons.

johnnycool

Quote from: omaghjoe on June 02, 2020, 07:16:38 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:04:41 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 06:12:04 PM
Key difference is that kids are not forced to do KS4, or at least, in its current guise.

For example, what is the point in trying to teach someone differentiation when they'll obviously never use it?


Basic English & Maths - applied where possible - within vocational courses is a much better fit.

Most people who are taught differentiation will never use it imo

What is the point of education? Is it only ever to use something in a vocational setting?

A bit like a brickie I laboured for one summer who didn't realise he used Pythagoras theorem almost every day.


omaghjoe

Quote from: johnnycool on June 03, 2020, 07:43:45 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 02, 2020, 07:16:38 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:04:41 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 06:12:04 PM
Key difference is that kids are not forced to do KS4, or at least, in its current guise.

For example, what is the point in trying to teach someone differentiation when they'll obviously never use it?


Basic English & Maths - applied where possible - within vocational courses is a much better fit.

Most people who are taught differentiation will never use it imo

What is the point of education? Is it only ever to use something in a vocational setting?

A bit like a brickie I laboured for one summer who didn't realise he used Pythagoras theorem almost every day.

That reminds me any maths teachers on here?

Instead of giving your pupils the "it just is" (which is what I got) show them this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVo6szYE13Y

tonto1888

Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:04:41 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 06:12:04 PM
Key difference is that kids are not forced to do KS4, or at least, in its current guise.

For example, what is the point in trying to teach someone differentiation when they'll obviously never use it?


Basic English & Maths - applied where possible - within vocational courses is a much better fit.

Most people who are taught differentiation will never use it imo

Most people won't be taught differentiation. It's on the A Level syllabus

RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 09:32:46 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 08:42:16 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:12:23 PM
Can you point me in the direction of this stronger evidence ?

Are you for real?

Go compare GCSE and A-level results from NI to England, and run your comparison back as far as you like.

Why are you comparing the results to England?

I would be more interested in looking at Finland. 

Because it is by far the most similar social setting to here.

Compare to Finland and you have to attempt to weigh for a large number of differences in society. Of course, that wouldn't suit you...
i usse an speelchekor

RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on June 04, 2020, 09:44:53 AM
FTR, there's decades of research written about the overall academic outcomes between the parts of England still using academic selection, and those that don't. The general consensus is that on an overall basis, those English counties still using academic selection are achieving no better overall outcomes compared to elsewhere in the country.

Any links please (genuinely interested)?
i usse an speelchekor

omaghjoe

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on June 04, 2020, 09:44:53 AM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 09:32:46 PM
Why are you comparing the results to England?

Because it supports the argument that the system in NI is superior and that no change is needed. However that is a very flawed argument, as it involves essentially a "creaming" of students, particularly at A-Level, against one single country that while itself has a mostly comprehensive public education system, still has three geographic areas where the 11+ still essentially exists (Kent, Buckinghamshire & Lincolnshire). No measure is taken of academic & vocational achievements outside of GCSE's & A-Levels with this thinking - different policies by schools as to wherever what children should be entered into exams e.g. keeping weaker students out of taking GCSEs often to improve "league table" results.

FTR, there's decades of research written about the overall academic outcomes between the parts of England still using academic selection, and those that don't. The general consensus is that on an overall basis, those English counties still using academic selection are achieving no better overall outcomes compared to elsewhere in the country.

A good "fit for purpose" (sorry for using such a cliche) education system helps rise all the boats in a convoy - scuttling the smaller/less powerful ones to make yourself look better is not a nominal public education strategy that is beneficial in the longer term.

Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 09:32:46 PMI would be more interested in looking at Finland.  Been widely acknowledged as the best education system in the world.

If your stronger evidence is results of English schools then you are setting the bar fairly low internationally.
But don't look at the number of pupils leaving schools here compared to England with no GCSE's or less than 5 GCSE's or less than 5 GCSE's including Math's and English. 

Now if you can send me evidence that setting produces better results for all pupils I will be happy to have a look....

Finland has been scoring highly in recent PISA tests that compare educational outcomes around the world, as has its neighbour across the water, Estonia. Funnily enough, Finnish, Estonian and Hungarian have similar language roots - I understand those speaking Finnish can somewhat understand Estonian and vice versa, not sure where Hungarian lies, but Hungary has been ranking a lot lower than Finland & Estonia. Anyway, the Finnish language is one of the easiest Indo-European languages to understand between its vocal & written form which helps when it comes to obtaining high scores in reading/literacy. However, what also helps is that teachers in Finland have to obtain a masters degree to teach, they have a lot of autonomy as to how they teach their pupils, have a comprehensive system for students up until 16 y.o., and that the profession is very highly respected in Finnish society - you don't get the begrudgery of teachers that you often see on these isles.

This quote from a lecturer at a teacher training school in Helsinki was a bit of a punch to the guts... "When we got the results, we were thinking, if we are that good, how bad are the others? We were taken by surprise"  :o

Final tidbit - funny how you rarely, if ever, see northern nationalists compare the NI school system to that in the south.

Interesting... also heard that the teachers stay with pupils for multiple years.
On a side note I find it interesting that their language is considered very "simple" as they hoors never speak... Kimi Raikkonen is very reflected of my experience with finns

FermGael

St Michaels And Mount Lourdes in Enniskillen have joined  the list of grammars dropping the 11 plus for one year .
Wanted.  Forwards to take frees.
Not fussy.  Any sort of ability will be considered

NAG1

Quote from: FermGael on June 04, 2020, 09:35:00 PM
St Michaels And Mount Lourdes in Enniskillen have joined  the list of grammars dropping the 11 plus for one year .

Why are they doing this piecemeal Sh*t, it should be a collective decision across the board either in or out. Totally unfair to have one or two areas making this call and the rest sitting on their hands.

delgany

#296
Quote from: NAG1 on June 05, 2020, 10:06:36 AM
Quote from: FermGael on June 04, 2020, 09:35:00 PM
St Michaels And Mount Lourdes in Enniskillen have joined  the list of grammars dropping the 11 plus for one year .

Why are they doing this piecemeal Sh*t, it should be a collective decision across the board either in or out. Totally unfair to have one or two areas making this call and the rest sitting on their hands.

The  grammar schools are  designated "voluntary grammar" .They are completely independent of each other,  most were set up by religious orders. They are financed by Dept of Education but are run by their board of Governors.

I'd imagine they are working at a local level due to variations in demographics  and levels of over subscription , they would have to deal with .
E.g  2 /5  schools in newry / kilkeel had places not filled yesterday for sept intake.

It will be interesting to see if the grammar schools across Belfast follow suit. That is were the pressure points for admission to year 8 , is most difficult.

JimStynes

The likes of Rathmore will find it difficult to accept children who wouldn't have been straight A students!

delgany

Rathmore, Knock Aquinas & St.Malachys turned down A's this year and they had their admission number increased.

FermGael

Loreto and Omagh CBS have both dropped the 11 plus for next year.
Wanted.  Forwards to take frees.
Not fussy.  Any sort of ability will be considered