Gaelic Football - Rules & Regulations discussion/clarification

[JoG2]

15 secs yes. And ref's have been instructed to give the player taking a mark a couple of steps to decide if he wishes to take the mark ie put his hand up

[PadraicHenryPearse]

is there also guidance about not signalling the mark and playing on. you cannot be tackled for 4 steps or length of time it takes to take 4 steps.

if this happens in the large rectangle would it be a penalty or 14m free?

[lenny]

15 secs yes. And ref's have been instructed to give the player taking a mark a couple of steps to decide if he wishes to take the mark ie put his hand up

Forwards get 15 seconds, defenders get 5 seconds. I suppose the difference being the forward is given more time as he is kicking for a point.

[twohands!!!]

I thought the mark lasts 15 seconds so the advantage could have been seen to be with mcmanus also.

if it is only 15 seconds then its not a break in play in my opinion.

The mark is only a 5 seconds break if the player chooses to take the free kick.

pretty sure its 15. at least thats what we have been told for the new rules this year. was 5 last year afaik

Yup it was increased from 5 seconds to 15 seconds when the updated rules came in this year.

The latest version of the rule book on GAA.ie still hasn't been updated with the new rules (there's no mention of the attacking mark anywhere in it)
This is seriously shoddy stuff from the GAA - change the rules, but don't actually bother to update the rule-book on the organisation's web-site.

Based on last year's rules, I think a team is allowed make a substitution when a mark from a kickout is caught and the player opts not to play on because the wording indicates that not playing on is calling "taking a free kick " and free kicks are regarded as a break in play, during which substitutions are allowed.

A Substitution may only be made during a break in play, after the player has given a substitution note to the Referee, or in the case of a InterCounty Senior game, to the Sideline Official.

This shall also apply to a Temporary Substitution allowed under Rule 1.5 (b), Rules of Control -
Injuries: Blood.

A break in play shall be when the play is stopped after a score or wide or for a free, sideline puck/ kick or when the Referee has stopped play for medical attention to an injured player.

Mark
When a player catches the ball cleanly from a Kick-Out without it touching the ground, on or past the 45m line nearest the Kick-Out point, he shall be awarded a 'Mark' by the Referee.  The player awarded a 'Mark' shall have the options of (a) Taking a free kick or (b) Playing on immediately

[Main Street]

Okay, the advanced mark is 15 secs and  your everyday plain mark is still 5 seconds.
Both still don't constitute a break in play so that a substitution can be made,  do they?

[JoG2]

is there also guidance about not signalling the mark and playing on. you cannot be tackled for 4 steps or length of time it takes to take 4 steps.

if this happens in the large rectangle would it be a penalty or 14m free?

You can only shadow the attacker for the 4 steps , if you lay a hand on him in the large rectangle (during the 4 steps) , it's a penalty.

15 secs yes. And ref's have been instructed to give the player taking a mark a couple of steps to decide if he wishes to take the mark ie put his hand up

Forwards get 15 seconds, defenders get 5 seconds. I suppose the difference being the forward is given more time as he is kicking for a point.

Aye, that's it. If the player taking the mark gets injured in the process, the nearest player takes the free. So get your free taker sprinting over if its a level game with a minute or 2 to go!

[twohands!!!]

is there also guidance about not signalling the mark and playing on. you cannot be tackled for 4 steps or length of time it takes to take 4 steps.

if this happens in the large rectangle would it be a penalty or 14m free?

Penalty - see the link here
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/guide-to-new-the-gaelic-football-playing-rules/

At the moment it's a penalty but the Standing Rules Committee have a motion that will be voted at the Annual Congress on the 29th that would allow defenders to tackle a player who makes an attacking mark in either the large or small rectangle immediately i.e no 4 steps allowance. The Standing Rules Committee continue to cover themselves in glory.
I haven't see the actual wording of this further updating to the advanced mark rule so not sure if it's large or small rectangle.

Also coming up with wording might be a bit tricky in terms of what happens when a player makes a mark just outside the area (be it large or small rectangle) and plays on - where exactly would the defender be allowed tackle him - when the ball comes into the area or would he have to wait for the player to enter the area. Even if the wording is clear it will most likely be an absolute nightmare of a rule for refs to make a call on, and the punishment for a defending team who breaks the rule is a penalty, expect controversy on this one.

Also pondering it a bit you could you see lads deliberatly staying outside the area so they don't get tackled but rather set their bodies to tap over an easy point or even worse the dreaded fisted point - it's possible this advantage mark will increase the logic of taking the fisted points in certain situations  - for instance in the last few minutes of a drawn game -  lad goes up catches ball outside the square, plays on, stays outside the area and uses his four unchallended steps to handpasss the ball at his ease over the bar.

[twohands!!!]

Okay, the advanced mark is 15 secs and  your everyday plain mark is still 5 seconds.
Both still don't constitute a break in play so that a substitution can be made,  do they?

Nope 15 seconds for all marks now.

If the player opts to play on, its not a break in play and substitutions aren't allowed.
If the player stops and takes the kick, it is a break in play and substitutions are allowed.

2: For all marks (the advance mark and the kickout mark) the following provisions apply; the player will now be allowed 15 seconds to take the mark (it was 5 seconds previously). The opposing players must retreat 13m (it was 10m previously).

https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/guide-to-new-the-gaelic-football-playing-rules/

[twohands!!!]

is there also guidance about not signalling the mark and playing on. you cannot be tackled for 4 steps or length of time it takes to take 4 steps.

if this happens in the large rectangle would it be a penalty or 14m free?

You can only shadow the attacker for the 4 steps , if you lay a hand on him in the large rectangle (during the 4 steps) , it's a penalty.

15 secs yes. And ref's have been instructed to give the player taking a mark a couple of steps to decide if he wishes to take the mark ie put his hand up

Forwards get 15 seconds, defenders get 5 seconds. I suppose the difference being the forward is given more time as he is kicking for a point.

Aye, that's it. If the player taking the mark gets injured in the process, the nearest player takes the free. So get your free taker sprinting over if its a level game with a minute or 2 to go!

Can see there being shenanigans with this one.
Last play of a drawn All-Ireland Tommy Walsh goes up among a scrum of players and hauls down a mark.
Gets injured in the process of landing.
Ref has to figure which Kerry player was the nearest to him.
In a scrum of moving jumping players, picking the nearest could be a right game of pin the tail on the donkey.
Is it nearest when he catches the ball in the air or when he lands or what happens if he goes sprawling and ends up on the gound from his leap?

[bannside]

Yesterday I read an article in the Irish News by Brendan Crossan which if someone could paste on here it would be well worth a read. The views expressed are from Antrim manager Lenny Harbinson and I havent seen or heard anything yet that resembles a solution that fixes so many problems at the one time. Probably ten years ahead of it's time, but something needs to happen or our great game will end up being a shoot out between three or four counties and everyone else bankrupt in chasing a prize that is unattainable.

[JoG2]

Both articles


DO away with pre-season competitions.

Rip up the National League and blend it in with the championship.

Give teams more exposure to those above them and try to level the playing field by allowing the rising tide to lift the boats that most need lifted.

That is the general thrust of how Lenny Harbinson views the footballing landscape. It has, over the last 15 years, become very lop-sided.

Go back a decade, back to when Harbinson was guiding St Gall's to an All-Ireland club title.

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20 of the 32 counties are in the same division of the Allianz Football League now that they were then. Only Cork and Derry, who were both in Division One then and are both in Division Three now, are more than one league out either way now.

Only Clare from that year's Division Four have seen the heights of Division Two in that time in between, while Mayo, Dublin, Kerry, Galway and Tyrone have almost exclusively been in Division One, while Monaghan are in their sixth straight year there.

The National League system has produced some extraordinary entertainment, but has it also produced a series of heavier ceilings that the teams beneath just cannot crack?

For Harbinson, the answer is to mash up the league and combine it with the championship in a new format altogether.


"Take all the provincial championships away and say we're going into four groups of eight. Blend the league into the championship," says the Antrim manager.

"The top four teams in each group go straight into the top tier knockout. Start it in January, and do away with the Mickey Mouse competitions.

"Come April, the top four go and play for Sam Maguire, the bottom four go into a second tier competition. You could seed it, two from Division One in each group, two from Division Two, and so on.

"You're giving everybody a go at playing against teams, some who will be at their level, some who will be better. Some days you'll compete, some days you'll get a trouncing, but you'd hope that the rising tide would lift all boats and bring your standard up.

"If you don't get in the top four, the secondary competition is there and run off side-by-side with the primary competition.

"Something like that would have worked a lot better. Instead, because you're Division Three or Four, you're shoehorned into a secondary competition and given no chance to affect that."

His plans can be seen on the opposite page.

The basic rundown is that the pre-season competitions are dropped, the League is brought forward into early January and played off as a double-round competition across the next 17 weeks.

It's split up into something resembling the old 1A/1B/2A/2B system, with the current standings used as seedings to split the 32 teams into four groups.

The top four at the end of each group go into the All-Ireland SFC and the bottom four go into the All-Ireland IFC. Both are played concurrently and both are straight knockout, with an open draw.

It's all over by the end of June and each county has played a minimum of 16 games, comfortably more than the current minimum of 10. That's if you include the pre-season competitions. If not, the minimum is just nine across a season that lasts at least six months, if not eight.

All counties would be subject to a maximum spend of £500,000 per code across all their inter-county squads, from development up to senior, and must invest £100,000 into club coaching and development each year.

Counties that run into an overspend would be deducted points in the following year's competitions.

University and schools football would be played during the first term between September and December

Harbinson also suggests that the GAA be split into two sections centrally. An administrative end that looks after finances and fixtures, while another central body would be responsible for all strategic investments by any county.

The Antrim boss would do away with Congress and appoint a central GAA board that includes Tom Ryan (Director General), Ger Mulryan (finance director), as well as a handful of other directors including ones to cover coaching and administration.

"They would be responsible to a GAA shareholders' board made up of six county chairmen, six club chairmen and three independent, professional people.

"That board would have three years to plan and execute, with key measurements in place for GAA shareholders to monitor and measure progress.

"And this group would have the power to hire and fire. If hiring, they can source a chief executive with no GAA past. They only need to get the best person.

"The GAA should also run strategic courses to help counties close the gap. For example, strength and conditioning accreditations. Three people from each county attend and best practice is shared.

"County GAA coaches would have to do a professional badge, and only badge holders can coach or manage at county level, and only within their own county.

"There should also be a team of 'super coaches', maybe five groups of four people each that actually go into a failing county and spend time sharing best practice to put a recovery plan in place to help close the gap with other counties."

Harbinson also says he would do away with the four provincial councils and replace them with four paid directors who sit on the GAA's central board and each take charge of an area.

"The GAA is run like a business in Croke Park, but once you go outside the front doors, they're leaving the provinces, and then the counties within each province, to do their own things in many aspects. There's some governance but not a lot.

"Various parts of the organisation are pulling against each other. It shouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for the GAA to have a strategic department, a finance department.

"They can't be in control of every nook and cranny in every county, but you delegate out and you take central control of it. They don't do that, and as we can see, costs are going up, there are overspends, and they're doing nothing about it. It's been flagged up for years."

And away on he goes, back to work. The GAA could do worse than bring him in and listen.

***********************

LENNY'S PLAN
(Based on 2020 National Football League, with current standings taken as final positions)

- No pre-season competitions
- No provincial championships
- Championship and league blended together
- Organised in four groups of eight, without New York
- Groups seeded, with two teams from each 2020 NFL division in each group
- Double round league, fourteen games each, home and away
- Top four in each group go through to All-Ireland SFC quarter-finals
- Bottom four in each group move into All-Ireland IFC quarter-finals
- Both competitions open draw
- Two competitions run side-by-sid
- Two options for Championship dates – either May 17 to June 28, or August 9 to September 20
- All-Ireland SFC and IFC finals played on the same weekend, if not together

Groups seeded, randomly generated
Group A: Galway, Meath, Westmeath, Clare, Cork, Derry, Sligo, London
Group B: Mayo, Kerry, Laois, Kildare, Longford, Down, Carlow, Wexford
Group C: Tyrone, Donegal, Armagh, Fermanagh, Offaly, Tipperary, Antrim, Waterford
Group D: Dublin, Monaghan, Cavan, Roscommon, Leitrim, Louth, Limerick, Wicklow

Group stage fixtures
January 4/5
Group A: Meath v Galway, London v Westmeath, Sligo v Clare, Cork v Derry
Group B: Kerry v Mayo, Laois v Wexford, Kildare v Carlow, Longford v Down
Group C: Donegal v Tyrone, Armagh v Waterford, Fermanagh v Antrim, Offaly v Tipperary
Group D: Monaghan v Dublin, Cavan v Wicklow, Roscommon v Limerick, Leitrim v Louth

January 11/12
Group A: Westmeath v Clare, Galway v Sligo, London v Derry, Cork v Meath
Group B: Laois v Kildare, Mayo v Carlow, Wexford v Down, Kerry v Longford
Group C: Armagh v Fermanagh, Tyrone v Antrim, Waterford v Tipperary, Donegal v Offaly
Group D: Cavan v Roscommon, Dublin v Limerick, Wicklow v Louth, Monaghan v Leitrim

January 18/19
Group A: Sligo v Cork, London v Clare, Meath v Westmeath, Derry v Galway
Group B: Carlow v Longford, Wexford v Kildare, Kerry v Laois, Down v Mayo
Group C: Antrim v Offaly, Waterford v Fermanagh, Donegal v Armagh, Tipperary v Tyrone
Group D: Limerick v Leitrim, Wicklow v Roscommon, Monaghan v Cavan, Louth v Dublin

January 25/26
Group A: Galway v Westmeath, Clare v Meath, Cork v London, Derry v Sligo
Group B: Mayo v Laois, Kildare v Kerry, Longford v Wexford, Down v Carlow
Group C: Tyrone v Armagh, Fermanagh v Donegal, Offaly v Waterford, Tipperary v Antrim
Group D: Dublin v Cavan, Roscommon v Monaghan, Leitrim v Wicklow, Limerick v Louth

February 1/2
Break week

February 8/9
Group A: Clare v Cork, London v Galway, Meath v Sligo, Westmeath v Derry
Group B: Kildare v Longford, Wexford v Mayo, Kerry v Carlow, Laois v Down
Group C: Fermanagh v Offaly, Waterford v Tyrone, Donegal v Antrim, Armagh v Tipperary
Group D: Roscommon v Leitrim, Wicklow v Dublin, Monaghan v Limerick, Cavan v Louth

February 15/16
Group A: Derry v Meath, Sligo v London, Clare v Galway, Cork v Westmeath
Group B: Down v Kerry, Carlow v Wexford, Kildare v Mayo, Longford v Laois
Group C: Tipperary v Donegal, Antrim v Waterford, Fermanagh v Tyrone, Offaly v Armagh
Group D: Louth v Monaghan, Limerick v Wicklow, Roscommon v Dublin, Leitrim v Cavan

February 22/23
Group A: Sligo v Westmeath, London v Meath, Galway v Cork, Derry v Clare
Group B: Carlow v Laois, Wexford v Kerry, Mayo v Longford, Down v Kildare
Group C: Antrim v Armagh, Waterford v Donegal, Tyrone v Offaly, Tipperary v Fermanagh
Group D: Limerick v Cavan, Wicklow v Monaghan, Dublin v Leitrim, Louth v Roscommon

February 29 / March 1
Group A: Galway v Meath, Westmeath v London, Clare v Sligo, Derry v Cork
Group B: Mayo v Kerry, Wexford v Laois, Carlow v Kildare, Down v Longford
Group C: Tyrone v Donegal, Waterford v Armagh, Antrim v Fermanagh, Tipperary v Offaly
Group D: Dublin v Monaghan, Wicklow v Cavan, Limerick v Roscommon, Louth v Leitrim

March 7/8
Break week

March 14/15
Group A: Clare v Westmeath, Sligo v Galway, Derry v London, Meath v Cork
Group B: Kildare v Laois, Carlow v Mayo, Down v Wexford, Longford v Kerry
Group C: Fermanagh v Armagh, Antrim v Tyrone, Tipperary v Waterford, Offaly v Donegal
Group D: Roscommon v Cavan, Limerick v Dublin, Louth v Wicklow, Leitrim v Monaghan

March 21/22
Group A: Cork v Sligo, Clare v London, Westmeath v Meath, Galway v Derry
Group B: Longford v Carlow, Kildare v Wexford, Laois v Kerry, Mayo v Down
Group C: Offaly v Antrim, Fermanagh v Waterford, Armagh v Donegal, Tyrone v Tipperary
Group D: Leitrim v Limerick, Roscommon v Wicklow, Cavan v Monaghan, Dublin v Louth

March 28/29
Group A: Westmeath v Galway, Meath v Clare, London v Cork, Sligo v Derry
Group B: Laois v Mayo, Kerry v Kildare, Wexford v Longford, Carlow v Down
Group C: Armagh v Tyrone, Donegal v Fermanagh, Waterford v Offaly, Antrim v Tipperary
Group D: Cavan v Dublin, Monaghan v Roscommon, Wicklow v Leitrim, Louth v Limerick

April 4/5
Break week

April 11/12
Group A: Cork v Clare, Galway v London, Sligo v Meath, Derry v Westmeath
Group B: Longford v Kildare, Mayo v Wexford, Carlow v Kerry, Down v Laois
Group C: Offaly v Fermanagh, Tyrone v Waterford, Antrim v Donegal, Tipperary v Armagh
Group D: Leitrim v Roscommon, Dublin v Wicklow, Limerick v Monaghan, Louth v Cavan

April 18/19
Group A: Meath v Derry, London v Sligo, Galway v Clare, Westmeath v Cork
Group B: Kerry v Down, Wexford v Carlow, Mayo v Kildare, Laois v Longford
Group C: Donegal v Tipperary, Waterford v Antrim, Tyrone v Fermanagh, Armagh v Offaly
Group D: Monaghan v Louth, Wicklow v Limerick, Dublin v Roscommon, Cavan v Leitrim

April 25/26
Group A: Westmeath v Sligo, Meath v London, Cork v Galway, Clare v Derry
Group B: Laois v Carlow, Kerry v Wexford, Longford v Mayo, Kildare v Down
Group C: Armagh v Antrim, Donegal v Waterford, Offaly v Tyrone, Fermanagh v Tipperary
Group D: Cavan v Limerick, Monaghan v Wicklow, Leitrim v Dublin, Roscommon v Louth

Championship schedule
- Either May 17 to June 28, or August 9 to September 20
- If May / June, club fixtures come in straight after inter-county championships end
- If August / September, inter-county teams break on April 26 and club league fixtures are played through May, June and early July, with club championships played from September 27 onwards

May 2/3: Break week

May 9/10: Break week

May 16/17
All-Ireland SFC and IFC round one (lowest ranked team at home where applicable)
All-Ireland SFC: Westmeath v Galway, Donegal v Mayo, Kildare v Dublin, Fermanagh v Roscommon, Tyrone v Galway, Cavan v Armagh, Laois v Monaghan, Clare v Kerry
All-Ireland IFC: Sligo v Derry, Waterford v Offaly, Louth v Down, Carlow v Cork, Limerick v Wicklow, Wexford v Longford, London v Leitrim, Antrim v Tipperary

May 23/24: Break week

May 30/31
All-Ireland SFC and IFC quarter-finals (neutral, games paired)
All-Ireland SFC: Tyrone v Kerry, Armagh v Dublin, Monaghan v Roscommon, Galway v Donegal
All-Ireland IFC: Down v Limerick, Cork v Tipperary, Offaly v Longford, Derry v Leitrim

June 6/7: Break week

June 13/14
All-Ireland SFC and IFC semi-finals
All-Ireland SFC: Kerry v Dublin, Monaghan v Donegal
All-Ireland IFC: Down v Cork, Longford v Derry

June 20/21: Break week

June 27/28
All-Ireland SFC final: Dublin v Donegal
All-Ireland IFC final: Cork v Derry

--------------------------------------------------------

ANTRIM manager Lenny Harbinson believes that the GAA must deal with the growing spending on inter-county teams by not only introducing a spending cap, but also having a minimum spend on coaching and clubs.

The debate around the amount of finance county boards are putting directly into county teams has intensified since GAA director general Tom Ryan revealed last week that the 2019 figure was €30m.

That represented an increase of almost 12 per cent in a single year, and matched up to the vast majority of the €36.1m the GAA brought in from gate receipts. That figure was boosted by the €3m from an All-Ireland football final replay, as well as an increase in ticket prices last year.

Harbinson, whose team have condensed their training down to just two nights a week and are doing double sessions of gym followed by pitch, says that not only must there be a spending cap on county squads, but that county boards must be held responsible for investing in other areas.

"Have a cap at one end and a minimum spend threshold at the other," said the Saffrons' boss.

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"There should be a cap. It should be up to a value of £500,000 per code, to cover all their teams from development squads up.

"If Antrim want to spend £200,000 that's up to them, and if Dublin want to spend right up to the limit, that's ok.

"What they should be looking at is that every county, depending on their size and number of clubs, should have a minimum spend on coaching and a minimum amount going back into clubs.

"That might be £100,000. They have to show how they're putting money back into their own county, to get structures in place.


"You need to have a twin-track approach, where you can't overspend on your county teams and you must take a portion of the budget you have and make sure it's being invested in grassroots and clubs, to keep the heart of the organisation ticking over."

In a wide-ranging discussion in today's Irish News, Harbinson reveals his proposed structure for the championship and states his belief that the existence of provincial councils is one of the biggest barriers to progress in the GAA.

While accepting that some degree of spending on inter-county teams is an inevitability, Harbinson says that the four provincial bodies "have too much say... consequently, the GAA can't control things."

"For the greater good of the association, as a Gael, I don't want to see my own county or any county in financial trouble. That has big consequences.

"Similarly when you read reports about stadiums and whatever else, there are a lot of things wrong. The provincial boards probably have too much say and sway in lots of things. Consequently, the GAA can't control things.

"If you look at it from finance and fixtures, you have the tail wagging the dog. Central Council should be in control of everything and delegating it out to whatever departments, and regionalise it.

"But you have the Ulster Council and the others making their own fixtures and shoe-horning that into a national fixture list, and it's not fit for purpose in the 21st century. It's not working.

"Centralisation, with proper checks and balances, is how to run an organisation. Yes, you delegate out, but it all has to be controlled.

"All the GAA had to do was say 'thank you very much' to the provincial organisations.

"Ulster, let's say they run on a budget of £5m, to run schools, coaching, supporting the community, all of which they're very good at. I'm not saying do away with it, but what Central Council could do is take all the finances.

"They tell Ulster Council that they're granted £5m, but it's controlled centrally. Likewise do the same with the rest. Take all the provincial championships away.

"You can't do any of that while you have the provincial councils in place, controlling things, controlling fixtures, controlling stadium builds and wanting their slice of the cake."

* See P68-69 for Lenny Harbinson's plan to reshape the championship and the GAA's structures

[bannside]

Excellent thanks. Read that again in detail. It's very hard to pick any single point and find fault with it. Superb vision. Anyone care to share their thoughts. Is this achievable or is it all too futuristic.

The bit I like best is the cap on spending on preparing county teams and more into clubs and grass roots activity. Plus...the view that provincial boards are more of a hindrance than a help. Over €5million paid out last year in salaries across the country and what we have is a fixture congestion mess, county boards going bankrupt and about three or four teams realistically chasing the big prize. Our game is in turmoil in so many levels..something drastically needs to change .

[magpie seanie]

Did he submit that to the Fixtures Review Committee? I know that splitting the year like that (first half county, second half club) and that format (4 groups of were discussed. Think the 4 groups of 8 is one of the options on the table at Congress but the split year was not recommended by the Fixtures Review Committee though not a double round. 14 intercounty games in 17 weeks is just crazy. Leaving clubs without their stars for 6 months is not right in my opinion either, especially when they'll arrive back flaked out (most will doubtless want a break after that punishing schedule at the very least.

Personally I think moving the National football leagues, with an added knockout stage to become the Championship to the summer and provincial championships (on a round robin basis with a final) to spring would be awesome.

[bannside]

I take your point MS about county players returning burnt out to their clubs. I know it's not perfect but only 4 counties will be involved at the end of this schedule and in those counties a way should be found to give those players a week or two grace. After that for 8 counties involved in semi finals, the losers will get a month break before they are required for club duty. I understand it's not perfect but it's a massive improvement.

[Rossfan]

I'm nearly in agreement with Seanie (2nd time in a week....this will have to stop).
I would play the Leagues Feb to July with gap weeks for the Provincials played in the traditional knockout format.
That would require 11 weekends out of 23/24 leaving time for Club weekends.
The All Ireland SFC to comprise the 4 Provincial Champions, D3 Champions, D4 Champions and either 6 or 10 highest League teams. Straight knock out from there.
If we're to have a Tier 2 call it the All Ireland IFC but limit it to teams 2 to 6 in D3 and teams 2 to 4 in D4.