Dual Citizenship

Started by Aerlik, May 22, 2007, 04:15:28 PM

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Evil Genius

#15
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on May 23, 2007, 08:40:21 AM
Opens up the old chestnut that most of us in Ireland, certainly over 30 years of age, can be accepted as Irish citizens based on the birth place of our grandparents, even if, ostensibly, we just happened to be born in north-eastern Ireland and are categorised as British 'subjects'.

Still, some OWCers don't often seem to recognise that fact.

I can't/don't speak for what you term "OWCers", but as a Northern Irishman and British citizen*, I personally couldn't care less who Leinster House accords Irish citizenship to, or on what basis - it's their business, so good luck to them.

But that is straying from my original point, which was that it appears incongruous to me that a proud Irish Republican and Citizen like Aerlik should consider his Irish Nationality inadequate both for himself and his son. Worse still, that he should seek to "augment" their Nationality by applying for nationality of a country which still has Queen Elizabeth as its Head of State.  
Further, I sense Aerlik's use of highly derogatory language for the Queen to be evidence of the self-same embarrassment so acutely described by Eamonn McCann in another context, when he observed:

"It's because some Nationalists are uneasy at their own acceptance of Northern Ireland that they feel they have to make a show of rhetorical opposition to it.

It is because, in practical terms, they have endorsed the legitimacy of the Northern Ireland State that they denounce symbolic representations of it all the more loudly"

[For "NI", read "Queen Elizabeth", and for "the NI state" read "Australia"]  


* - The concept of being "subject" to the Crown was replaced by that of "British citizen" years ago, btw.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Fiodoir Ard Mhacha

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 23, 2007, 10:43:24 AM
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on May 23, 2007, 08:40:21 AM
Opens up the old chestnut that most of us in Ireland, certainly over 30 years of age, can be accepted as Irish citizens based on the birth place of our grandparents, even if, ostensibly, we just happened to be born in north-eastern Ireland and are categorised as British 'subjects'.

Still, some OWCers don't often seem to recognise that fact.

I can't/don't speak for what you term "OWCers", but as a Northern Irishman and British citizen*, I personally couldn't care less who Leinster House accords Irish citizenship to, or on what basis - it's their business, so good luck to them.

* - The concept of being "subject" to the Crown was replaced by that of "British citizen" years ago, btw.

Again, thank you.

Northern Irishman and British citizen. Interesting concept. Would it be similar to someone from Doncaster saying, I'm a Yorkshireman and a British citizen? It depends on who they're talking to, I guess. Well, it is your entitlement, of course, just as it is equally mine to state I'm an Irishman, Irish citizen by birth and by parentage (incidentally). In fact, what happens in Leinster House is as important to me as what goes on in the British House of Commons, and I've always thought that's the way the transition period should be. But, even so, I don't lose any sleep over it. I leave that to the politicians.
"Something wrong with your eyes?....
Yes, they're sensitive to questions!"

Evil Genius

Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on May 23, 2007, 10:54:46 AM
Again, thank you.

Northern Irishman and British citizen. Interesting concept. Would it be similar to someone from Doncaster saying, I'm a Yorkshireman and a British citizen? It depends on who they're talking to, I guess. Well, it is your entitlement, of course, just as it is equally mine to state I'm an Irishman, Irish citizen by birth and by parentage (incidentally). In fact, what happens in Leinster House is as important to me as what goes on in the British House of Commons, and I've always thought that's the way the transition period should be. But, even so, I don't lose any sleep over it. I leave that to the politicians.

I'm tempted to say that if I can understand the concept, then it must be a pretty simple one!  :D

Anyway, I am an Irishman. I was born in Ireland, to Irish parents and it's obvious to all and sundry the moment I open my mouth to speak.

More specifically, I am a Northern Irishman. Now I accept that that distinction is unimportant, even offensive to one degree or other, to those my fellow Northern Irishmen who are from the Irish Nationalist tradition.

But as someone from the Irish Unionist tradition, it is hugely important to me, since it allows me to affirm my allegiance to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That is, I may call myself "British"*

However, because I am also British does not make me any less Irish, never mind in any way "English", "Scottish" or (heaven forbid) "Welsh"!  ;)

The "key" is to be found in the term "Union". Being a member of a Union does not change someone, it merely augments or enhances them (one hopes). Which is why an Irishman from, say, Cork can also be European (i.e. a member of the European Union), without that making him French, Greek, Romanian etc. Nor, of course, will it make him any less Irish.

There, I told you it was simple!  8)

P.S. A more precise analogy for your Doncaster example would be if he described himself as an Englishman and a British citizen. Bringing Yorkshire into it would be the equivalent of someone from Ballymena describing himself as an Antrim man and British citizen. His county of origin might be interesting and informative in its own right, but not really relevant to the question of "Nationality".


* - I say "British" rather than "United Kingdomish", in the same way as someone from e.g. New York will call himself "American", rather than "United Statish".
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Fiodoir Ard Mhacha

#18
You see, I must be incredibly stupid because I could never say I was a Northern Irishman - the term just doesn't make sense to me. I think it more describes a state of mind than an actual nationality.

I used the Yorkshire analogy, because I would imagine someone from, we'll say, Doncaster, for the sake of it, might actually be more proud to tell people he was a Yorkshire man first, then an Englishman, and maybe ultimately British. Just as you might feel proud to be 'northern' Irish. Again, it depends on who you are talking to. When away on holiday, do you instantly describe yourself to the locals as a Northern Irishman? I would imagine many people on mainland Europe or the Americas would be mightily confused by this. I say Irish because I am and because it makes it clear to them where I am from. Would you really, all joking aside, describe yourself ever as British to someone in Spain or Germany, France or the States?


PS I'm also an Irish Unionist too, in a roundabout way.  :D
"Something wrong with your eyes?....
Yes, they're sensitive to questions!"

magickingdom

Quote from: Bogball XV on May 23, 2007, 10:31:09 AM
Grousebeater - is that you??


if not where are you grousebeater? come back with more flying stories....

magickingdom

QuoteBut that is straying from my original point, which was that it appears incongruous to me that a proud Irish Republican and Citizen like Aerlik should consider his Irish Nationality inadequate both for himself and his son. Worse still, that he should seek to "augment" their Nationality by applying for nationality of a country which still has Queen Elizabeth as its Head of State.

what are you on about eg? i have dual citizenship (us and irish/eu) and one does not negate the other, kinda like joint first minister ian and his new best buddy martin there equal. anyway look at your passport again, think it says eu somewhere...  ;)

Evil Genius

Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on May 23, 2007, 11:42:44 AM
You see, I must be incredibly stupid because I could never say I was a Northern Irishman - the term just doesn't make sense to me. I think it more describes a state of mind than an actual nationality.

I used the Yorkshire analogy, because I would imagine someone from, we'll say, Doncaster, for the sake of it, might actually be more proud to tell people he was a Yorkshire man first, then an Englishman, and maybe ultimately British. Just as you might feel proud to be 'northern' Irish. Again, it depends on who you are talking to. When away on holiday, do you instantly describe yourself to the locals as a Northern Irishman? I would imagine many people on mainland Europe or the Americas would be mightily confused by this. I say Irish because I am and because it makes it clear to them where I am from. Would you really, all joking aside, describe yourself ever as British to someone in Spain or Germany, France or the States?


PS I'm also an Irish Unionist too, in a roundabout way.  :D

I understand why you (presumably an Irish Nationalist) don't feel any affinity to Northern Ireland. Fair enough, that is your right. Nonetheless, neither can you deny that NI exists and is in many ways separate from the Irish Republic, however much some might wish it differently. Therefore, no-one can reasonably deny me the rights which accrue when I assert my Northern Irishness.

And whilst in one sense Northern Irishness is a "state of mind", it is not merely that, never mind some figment of my imagination, since it also has tangible expression e.g. Passport, Taxation, Voting Rights, Courts of Law etc.(Indeed, I can comfortably argue that Northern Irishness has more practical, day-to-day relevance to your average NI Nationalist, then his Irish citizenship has to him!)

As for your Yorkshireman, that is perhaps an unfortunate example, since Yorkshire folk consider themselves to be different to the whole of the rest of humanity, never mind those who live within the same shores! But taking most other parts of the UK, many people happily describe themselves as e.g. Scottish and British, English and British or Welsh and British. My describing myself as Northern Irish and British is no different. And which order or priority we choose to give to those two facets makes no difference to the concept, nor does the fact that there are Scots, Welsh, (Northern) Irish and even Yorkshire people who would prefer not to be part of the UK in the first place.

As for my self-designation when overseas, I sometimes change it, for convenience. For example, if I'm at a Customs Post, or Bank etc, if someone asks me my Nationality, I will sometimes reply "British", in case I have to show my (British) Passport. And if, out of ignorance, they automatically assume this means I must be "English", I don't usually bother to disabuse them, if it saves me a lengthy attempt to explain.

Similarly, if I'm e.g. in a bar in Boston and someone, on hearing my accent, asks me where I'm from, I'll happily reply "Ireland", if for no other reason than that I prefer to enjoy my Sam Adams in peace!

However, for the most part, if someone asks, I simply reply that I'm from Northern Ireland (or am "Northern Irish"). As knowledge of the situation has seeped out into the wider world, I increasingly find that my enquirer will be aware that there is some distinction between Northern Irish and Irish (even if they may be somewhat confused as to precise details)

And sometimes, I get asked why I've used the qualification "Northern" and this leads to further discussion/explanation. At this point, the conversation might develop to where I  point out that this makes me "British" as well, with my Passport produced as evidence. But if it's too much hassle, or I haven't time, or my Inquisitor is Spanish and we're just up the road from Gibraltar (!), then I'll not bother. (Who needs Spanish sputum in his Sam McGill?)

And yes, there are rare occasions when I will describe myself simply as "British"; normally this follows my having been pissed off by some irritating separatist (e.g. Basque, Welsh, French Canadian etc), or someone who is notably anti-British (e.g Argentinian), but even then it is usually only when they are obviously of weak build, under 5 foot tall and drawing their Widow's Pension...

P.S. On Six Nations Weekends I'm incorrigably Irish; however, if David Healy can continue his ascent to immortality for just six more matches, no-one will ever be more NORN IRON than I shall be for the month of June 2008, in either Austria or Switzerland!

"Onwards and Upwards!"  :D
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Evil Genius

Quote from: magickingdom on May 23, 2007, 12:01:52 PM
what are you on about eg? i have dual citizenship (us and irish/eu) and one does not negate the other, kinda like joint first minister ian and his new best buddy martin there equal. anyway look at your passport again, think it says eu somewhere...  ;)

I think you miss my point. Of course I understand the concept of dual citizenship. I was merely questioning Aerlik, a proud Irish Republican, as to what he thought of the fact when he also becomes* an Australian citizen, his new Head of State will be Queen Elizabeth II? (Personally, I prefer her to e.g. George W. Bush  ;))

And yes, my (old) Passport does say "European Community" [sic]. This reflects the fact that my country of Nationality, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is also a member of the European Union. I'm happy with both... :D

* - "Has already become"?
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Fiodoir Ard Mhacha

Of course, I feel an affinity to Ireland, which I think you probably do too, though perhaps you are not quite able to openly admit it (in an anonymous message board).

In actual fact, I have recently considered calling myself firstly an Ulster man, 9-counties you understand; because I feel I have a direct and immediate closeness to the people in this part of the island, whether it be in accent, attitude, isolationist tendencies (which I think a lot of people in this part of the world share, whether it be from Dublin or London) or radicalism.

I have never heard of a Northern Ireland passport but then again, I've always had an Irish passport because that was a) my choice and b) my birthright. Indeed, and you will really have to forgive my ignorance here, but I'm not entirely sure what you mean by northern Irish in the context of Voting Rights, Taxation or Courts of Law. Is that a reference to the unique Northern Ireland Orders that we have been 'subjected' to since 1972?

It's an interesting debate about how many different people, living throughout Britain, not to mention north-eastern Ireland, who'd rather not be a part of the "United Kingdom". It is quite a meaningless term, anyhow, isn't it - a bit like the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. I personally prefer the term 'Britain'.

But as for self-designation, I hear what you're saying, of course, but my God, wouldn't it just be easier to say you're Irish at all times and be done with it. It certainly works for me.



"Something wrong with your eyes?....
Yes, they're sensitive to questions!"

Evil Genius

Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on May 23, 2007, 01:22:24 PM
Of course, I feel an affinity to Ireland, which I think you probably do too, though perhaps you are not quite able to openly admit it (in an anonymous message board).

In actual fact, I have recently considered calling myself firstly an Ulster man, 9-counties you understand; because I feel I have a direct and immediate closeness to the people in this part of the island, whether it be in accent, attitude, isolationist tendencies (which I think a lot of people in this part of the world share, whether it be from Dublin or London) or radicalism.

I have never heard of a Northern Ireland passport but then again, I've always had an Irish passport because that was a) my choice and b) my birthright. Indeed, and you will really have to forgive my ignorance here, but I'm not entirely sure what you mean by northern Irish in the context of Voting Rights, Taxation or Courts of Law. Is that a reference to the unique Northern Ireland Orders that we have been 'subjected' to since 1972?

It's an interesting debate about how many different people, living throughout Britain, not to mention north-eastern Ireland, who'd rather not be a part of the "United Kingdom". It is quite a meaningless term, anyhow, isn't it - a bit like the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. I personally prefer the term 'Britain'.

But as for self-designation, I hear what you're saying, of course, but my God, wouldn't it just be easier to say you're Irish at all times and be done with it. It certainly works for me.

Of course I'm an Irishman and I have no difficulty in admitting that openly, never mind via the anonymity of a Message Board.

I suppose the point I am trying to get across is that there are two equally valid Irish traditions (at least) on this island - those of Irish Nationalism and of Irish Unionism. And just because I adhere to the latter, doesn't make me any less "Irish". (Nor does my "Britishness", for that matter).

And if I had been born and brought up in the Irish Republic, I would have to accept that that tradition is dying in the Republic (if not already dead) and either find another affinity, or move elsewhere and adopt a new one.

But I'm not from down South, I am an Irish Unionist from Northern Ireland, which means I can preserve my tradition/heritage/identity (or whatever) with ease. Now, I'm not one of those individuals who sees things in "black and white" (Orange and Green). One side of my family derives originally from Scotland, the other from the Irish Midlands (pre-partition). I still have some distant relatives in the Republic, afaik. Nor does my Northern Irishness give me the right to deny my neighbour another affiliation should he choose differently.

But if required to choose one from the many designations which might apply to me, (NI, Ulster, Irish, British etc) the one I choose is "Norn Iron", since that is what best defines me, for better or worse. That's all, really.

Re. some of your technical points, there is no "NI Passport, as such. But neither is there a Scottish, Welsh or English one, either; the absence of same does not make us any less Scot/Welsh/Eng/NI. Instead, we all share equally the same Passport, that of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

As for:
"And whilst in one sense Northern Irishness is a "state of mind", it is not merely that, never mind some figment of my imagination, since it also has tangible expression e.g. Passport, Taxation, Voting Rights, Courts of Law etc.(Indeed, I can comfortably argue that Northern Irishness has more practical, day-to-day relevance to your average NI Nationalist, then his Irish citizenship has to him!)"

I did not mean by this special legislation applying to NI. Rather, it was more simple. When a Nationalist from NI goes e.g. to tax his car, pay his TV Licence, make his Tax Return, stamp a letter etc etc, he does so in the same place and manner as his (Unionist) NI neighbour. Should he be up in Court for any reason, it is British law which will be appied. And when he goes to vote, it will be to a British administrative body, at one level or another.

With occasional exceptions or idiosyncracies, all of these will be different from his fellow Irish citizen in the Republic - even when the other is maybe only two miles up the road. Considering the consequences of these circumstances, along with long held geographical and cultural factors, in my experience, your average Northern Nationalist often has more in common with his Northern Unionist neighbour than he does with Nationalists in the Republic.

As for the concept of the "United Kingdom", or Britishness generally, rather like the British Constitution, these can be hard to define; that does not mean they cease to exist or matter, however.

On a day-to-day basis, most "Brits" see themselves as English, Scot, Welsh or NI etc. However, there are certain circumstances when their Britishness comes to the fore, and institutions or ceremonies reflect this. The most obvious example is the Monarchy. Another is the Armed Forces. The BBC, various sports teams and the shared language are others. The attachment to the Pound Sterling is another; even such relatively unimportant factors such as the inability of the EU to replace the old Imperial measures fully with metric measures is an indicator (or when did you last hear of someone nipping into their local for a "swift quarter litre"?).

I don't want to sound like John Major, wittering on about cricket, spinsters on bicycles and warm beer etc., but when foreign visitors come to these islands, they invariably fail to see the differences which are often so apparent to us; they are more often struck by the similarities.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

lynchbhoy

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 23, 2007, 02:29:51 PM

Of course I'm an Irishman and I have no difficulty in admitting that openly

:o :o
jeez - theres progress for ya boys

a few years ago, this kinda fella would have rather died than say/write even think something like that

the damn is cracking alright !  :D
..........

GweylTah

Quote from: Aerlik on May 22, 2007, 04:15:28 PM
Well lads and lassies, I'm 10 hours away from facing the Australian Citizenship Office to convince them I am worthy of becoming an Aussie.  Actually the only reason I am doing it is cos of my son, who's 9/16 Irish anyway.


Sounds like Australia's loss is Ireland's gain.

Good luck to you.

Evil Genius

Quote from: lynchbhoy on May 23, 2007, 03:20:05 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on May 23, 2007, 02:29:51 PM

Of course I'm an Irishman and I have no difficulty in admitting that openly

:o :o
jeez - theres progress for ya boys

a few years ago, this kinda fella would have rather died than say/write even think something like that

the damn is cracking alright !  :D

You simply don't get it, do you? There is more than one kind of Irishman, there is more than one tradition in Ireland, it has been that way for hundreds of years (if not forever) and it's going to remain that way for equally as long.

The only question remaining is what system of government(s) we need to accommodate this set of circumstances. As I see it, the choice is between Partition (effectively, "more of the same"), or an Agreed-Ireland*.

For a whole raft of reasons, my preference is the former. However, I would never say "Never" to the latter. Then again, I am entirely confident that the present arrangement (or something similar) will see me out, at least.

This is because after 80 years+, it has finally been accepted, throughout all of Ireland, Great Britain and the rest of the world, that nothing is going to change unless/until a majority of people in NI (alone) so will it. Not only that, but the enemies of partition, even including the most bitter and extreme, have accepted this. Indeed, they are acquiescing in the administration of a partitionist government even as we speak!

With the Republic having relinquished its former territiorial claim, the Union remains solely in the hands of the people of NI. So barring some population shift which demographers think highly unlikely, the only way the Union will end is if the (Unionist) majority so wishes it.

Which is why I have no fears of an Agreed Ireland, since such a construct would only emerge with our willing and equal contribution. And as yet, I've not seen anything worth our while to end the status quo.

So if you wish to take this as some evidence of an imminent dam-burst, so be it: I won't be building a boat anytime soon, though.


* - For Information: An "Agreed Ireland" is the exact opposite of the "United [sic] Ireland" which various armed Republicans have sought to impose on NI down the decades, entirely without success.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

SammyG

Quote from: Aerlik on May 22, 2007, 05:29:10 PM
Sammy G I can imagine is busting his breaches at your incredulity. How dare you question the dignity of the official language of Northern Ireland.  Yeah, shite.  No, simply put, the days of the evil empire are ending and I want to have a finger in the pie whe the rest of yiz are chucked out.

My mini-me was born here; either here or Japan. Shou ga nai as the Japs would say
#

Eh, don't drag me into your argument. Speaking with a Ballymena accent is not a language, never has been and never will be.

armaghniac

QuoteAnd as yet, I've not seen anything worth our while to end the status quo.

Evil the nationalist community have had to reassess various things to reach the present state of agreement. In my opinion the unionist community also have to look at a few things. One of these is recognition that partition is a real disadvantage, and the creation of NI a sign of failure, whatever way you look at it. Whatever benefits you believe there are in a link with Britain, as the unionist point of view has not found favour in Ireland as a whole then for the union to be worthwhile these must exceed the real disadvantages of partition. Why is it more important for a person in Armagh to be linked with Manchester than with Monaghan? You can legitimately argue that conditions are not right for a united Ireland, but only if there are some reasonable circumstances in which these conditions do become appropriate.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B