Pre season training regimes

[JMohan]

Happy Monday guys ...

Ok, yeh got a few questions and pm's, about my posts and it's a debate on a number of fronts - Happy to debate the only problem is getting time to explain/defend everything.
As far as being condescending - far from it Sur - and that smacks a little of paranoia - I am confident in what I am saying and I know that sooner or later you'll come around to my way of thinking!

In all seriousness though Zulu, don't take any offense, just lightening the tone of the posts so we don't get too serious - and fair play to you - it's great to be able to debate without any bitching or bullshit - even if you completely disagree with me.

I laughed at the zippo and fags analogy though - hilarious image!

[JMohan]

Ok ... had a few more pm's on this ...

Science or Practice
Science is great as a resource - but practice of science is where it matters most and while we can all quote papers and references it is not helpful really as it confuses the issue. Many scientific papers in the area of sports science are drawn from studies conducted on aging sedentary people and the conclusions are not directly applicable to the real world not to mention sometimes late to press. 
Practice on the other hand is at the business end of sport. It's where the science meets the real world. However even in the real world there is a lot of poor practices - even at top clubs. The bottom line is that there is no one solution to fit all. So i think people coaching must do four things ...
1. Understand basic science
2. Understand the approaches of the top teams
3. Make up our own mind from testing both in practice
4. Keep an open mind to change

It must also be noted that science is not exact nor concrete. Even today concepts we have about training are being challenged and changed.

Hypertrophy is not the best training approach to be adopted in Gaelic Football
I'm talking about the BEST approach - not a good approach or a useful - I mean the BEST approach, and if you ask me is hypertrophy such an approach - certainly not.
Training for hypertrophy is non-sensical in my humble opinion. Like I've previously stated, general hypertrophy means the player gets bigger and heavier.
Does a hypertrophied player get stronger? Of course - and more powerful? Yes. Heavier? Yes.
However do they pound for pound get stronger, faster and more powerful? NO!!!!!
And that's what matters.

Problems with Hypertrophy
There are a number of issues with general hypertrophy.
Getting a player heavier means that certain muscle groups grow - possibly those not needed as much and provide extra muscle - not needed to the same degree as others. If we choose to go down this route we need to understand the greater loading on the body and the fact it's very costly in terms of energy expenditure and demand, which increases even more during a game, which means a far greater calorific intake is needed increasing organism stressors not to mention the loading on joints - even if marginal. Such a hypertrophy now needs more capilarisation to support slower twitch fibres not needed to the same degree as faster twitch fibres which you've probably neglected in the search for general size. This is concept is promoted by bodybuilding and such sports where they don't consider that players need to cover ground and support the new muscle. Then we have coaches here worried about time under tension and getting different hypertrophy styles mixed up.

The Best Approach
A better approach is to attempt to maintain a weight close to that which the body is used to which means that joints don't need to adapt to increase in weight nor the pulmonary system to support it. Develop strength overall by focusing on and specifically hypertrophy of specifically fast twitch fibres - NOT general all over hypertrophy and hypertrophy of slower twitch fibres which have little benefit. This means the body as a unit can generate more force and therefore since body-weight is kept the same - be faster - much faster.

Note: I haven't even mentioned neural considerations. Nor will I as that is a completely different mine field.

Regarding fibre type and changing fibre type. You are more or less born with certain fibre types - which don't change a whole pile in percentage terms - BUT they do change in volume and more importantly than any of this is the fact the third type of fibre are nearly termed 'intermediate' and can be influenced to act more as fast twitch - IF training is such designed.

Making the Workhorse a faster workhorse
You see you can't really change a fibre as such - science regards it as impossible to change a cell - though there are some 'grey' examples. But we can convert the function/action of the fibre.
Someone said you only affect fibre if you're doing marathons or sprints all the time - but this is a bit narrow viewed. What does a Full Foward do? Sprint! That's it. Nothing else really.
So how do we get faster? We help make the slower player more explosive
- By developing the fibres he needs most - fast twitch
- By avoiding over emphasis of slow twitch fibres - (avoiding slow or distance running)
- 'Converting' the intermediate fibres to mimic fast twitch or take on their characteristics

Get Big then Get Strong then Get Power? ..... NO!
Someone suggested get bigger and then get more powerful - this is not the optimal approach due to the nature of the fibres developed. In order to get size you would have developed mostly slower twitch fibres and these would have limited if arguably any use to you when trying to develop power. This is backwards. These people usually quote periodisation as the reason or proof - this is a false and extinct concept.

The Supercar
Look at the manufacture of supercars. They don't build the biggest thing they can and then put the biggest engine in it do they? No, why? Because it's the weight issue. Instead they get the most powerful engine they can and get the leanest function design and chassis they can and put it all together. Then they take everything out that is not needed to leave it as functionally light as possible - the way a footballer should be.

Does Size Matter?
Of course people think you need to be big to hit guys - (there is not as much contact as there was in the older days) - if you're fast enough you won't get hit as much! Also the heavier you are the more it will cost you as the game continues so that in the final quarter this is why heavier guys tend to slow.
I'd rather have a fast mobile explosive wiry team than a big cumbersome team any day ...

The Misinterpreted 'Aerobic base'
Actually this is as fictious as the 'Get big, get strong, get power' idea.
This does depend on what level we're talking about to some degree. If someone playing 4th division or whatever wants to go for road runs, well away you go. I don't regard it as the BEST approach. I'm not saying you'll die or anything - it's just not the most 'specific' or useful approach to developing fitness for football.
Someone mentioned a while back that the Aerobic content of football and rugby are very different - yeh but we can say that about positions in GAA. What similarity is there between a Full Forward and Midfielder? Well you'd be amazed at how many positions are similar. In fact a top intercounty footballer in the full forward line could easily have a lower aerobic capacity than a rugby player of similar standard. 

The biggest issue with most players today is that they do so much volume of all types of training - they don't develop speed to any great degree.   

I'm not sure if that has convinced you - I have tried!

No matter - best of luck at whatever training approach you take on and stay healthy.

[Zulu]

That's a good post and while I disagree with some of it I'd be nit picking if I were to get into the detail of it. However I have to correct you on one or two points...

Many scientific papers in the area of sports science are drawn from studies conducted on aging sedentary people

That really isn't true but applying any scientific work to the field is questionable.

Without going into the details of your post on hypertrophy and aerobic training I feel you are missing the point, there is a process there where you you develop one aspect first and then build on that. I think you are skipping an important training goal by advocating what your saying. But the reality is if we invited 10 genuine experts (i.e. the top guys in the world) they wouldn't agree on many things either and this as must be taken into consideration by everyone. Training is very individual and there is much we still don't know so as you say there is no absolute right or wrong.

[JMohan]

That's a good post and while I disagree with some of it I'd be nit picking if I were to get into the detail of it. However I have to correct you on one or two points...

Many scientific papers in the area of sports science are drawn from studies conducted on aging sedentary people

That really isn't true but applying any scientific work to the field is questionable.

Well, if you look at alot of studies referenced for both strength and aerobic areas these are the only available populations for many long term studies - but the point being not all studies are equal.

Without going into the details of your post on hypertrophy and aerobic training I feel you are missing the point, there is a process there where you you develop one aspect first and then build on that. I think you are skipping an important training goal by advocating what your saying.

No. This is where we disagree.
You are of the opinion, correct me if I'm wrong, we need to complete stages before we move to another - this is in my opinion outdated, not correct nor the BEST approach.
We can develop physical attributes simultaneously and to a far greater degree than you suggest. The human body doesn't work in stages or in blocks, it is alot more malable than that and provding there is some logic and repsect for it, strength, power etc can be developed more or less simultaneously.

But the reality is if we invited 10 genuine experts (i.e. the top guys in the world) they wouldn't agree on many things either and this as must be taken into consideration by everyone. Training is very individual and there is much we still don't know so as you say there is no absolute right or wrong.

Agreed.
Well you've heard the saying that if you brought 10 experts into one room and 10 students into another - the students would fight on everything and the experts would agree on all!

[Zulu]

No. This is where we disagree.
You are of the opinion, correct me if I'm wrong, we need to complete stages before we move to another - this is in my opinion outdated, not correct nor the BEST approach.
We can develop physical attributes simultaneously and to a far greater degree than you suggest. The human body doesn't work in stages or in blocks, it is alot more malable than that and provding there is some logic and repsect for it, strength, power etc can be developed more or less simultaneously.

JM I agree that the body doesn't necessarily work in blocks or stages, any form of training will lead to adaptations in various spheres but I believe that the safest way is to look at it in terms of stages. And I certainly believe this to be the case for amateurs because they may have so many weaknesses that to do it the way you suggest will put them at risk of injury. I think at this stage we agree on more than we disagree but there isn't any program that ticks all the boxes so for any lads looking for advice, my advice would be to question everything and listen to your own body.

[tieroan]

What about these supplements that are recommended. I know of a few county teams that are on "legal" supplements. What would any of you recommended

[screenexile]

Reminds me of a great one from the Legend Scullion when taking us a few years back. We started taining in November for the following season and he was giving us a few lifestyle tips like drinking "Orange Mi Wadi with a pinch of salt" and then he went on

"I dunno if any of yis are on it or been on it before and if it's been any use til youse but I've heard great things about this Creatine and youse should see Mickey (The Phamacist on the panel) about getting yourselves setup if you want til. Eamon Burns was with the County for a whole he could likely tell you about it!"

Eamon replies "You are on it too Scullion!"

"Was I? Well f**k it didn't do me any harm so go on ahead lads!"

[JMohan]

What about these supplements that are recommended. I know of a few county teams that are on "legal" supplements. What would any of you recommended

- A large proportion of supplements are 'tainted' - if you're a county player you don't want to be another Aidan O'Mahoney (not in terms of guilty or not - but simply you don't want the hassle of trying to prove you're not)

- As a county player you do need to make sure what you are using comes from a very well recognised company that tests it's products.

- Most tainted supplements are not purposely tainted - they are just made by companies in factories that don't wash down their lines properly/fully and cross contamination occurrs.

- Many so called 'experts' reguritate and simply 'see-monkey do-monkey' when it comes to supplements and don't look for proof

- There is quite little peer-reviewed quality reserach to support many/most sport supplements

- There is some proof that after hard training such as weights using a protein/carbohydrate mixture may help recovery and performance

- Taking it after all sessions can increase fat gain since they are usually high in calorie and sugar content

- Creatine (just since it was mentioned above) is only needed at 3 grams post work, no loading phase is needed and is usually included anyway in most post training products

- Best benefits will be made from spending time concentrating on correcting diet and working on healthy food habits

- The problem with most other supplements is that no doctor is doing any testing - e.g. blood testing on them to see if they are having a positive or negative effect - it's a gamble

- Even the good old multi vitamin isn't proven beyond doubt


The only other supplements worth considering or that have any proof associated with them are ...
- Fish Oil - 3 to 6 grams per day at night - Good for general health and inflammation
- Glucosamine & Chrondrition - to protect joints and longer term health



In my opinion ...
Some young non-well known county player from a weaker county will innocently fail a test in the next 3 years by either

- using a product such as a magic fat-loss supplement from a non-compliant company
 OR
- by using a non cleared cough mixture
.... and will be made a very strict example of. I sincerely hope not, but I see this as happening - Aidan O'Mahony is just a warning in my humble experience.

[AbbeySider]

The only other supplements worth considering or that have any proof associated with them are ...
- Fish Oil - 3 to 6 grams per day at night - Good for general health and inflammation
- Glucosamine & Chrondrition - to protect joints and longer term health

In my opinion ...
Some young non-well known county player from a weaker county will innocently fail a test in the next 3 years by either

- using a product such as a magic fat-loss supplement from a non-compliant company
  OR
- by using a non cleared cough mixture
.... and will be made a very strict example of. I sincerely hope not, but I see this as happening - Aidan O'Mahony is just a warning in my humble experience.

IMO there isnt actually enough information for players as to what supplements are safe and what is not safe.

I used to take Whey Protein a few years ago because I needed the extra protein in my diet because of gym work and training.
I find I dont need it anymore as I dont get as sore.

But I found out recently that products such as "No-Explode" and "Nitro Bolan" have been taken off the Irish shelves. Now a few years ago if you wanted to you could have easily mad the mistake and got these from any health food or health supplement shop. I dont know what in them, but the nutritionist in the shop told me this week that they were taken off the shelves.

I had a link before to a GAA handbook that described what was banned.

I cant understand anyone wanting to take creatine to help with GAA performance, it fills muscles full of water, makes you bigger and heavier and hence slower which is if opposite effect you may want.

[supersarsfields]

Lads on another slightly different note, I know hydration is a major part for a training regime. I know there are certain drinks that are better for you with regards to hydration such as the isotonic drinks etc. Now I was wondering, is an isotonic drink that much of an improvement on water?
Now as a big fan of me cups o tae, I was told years ago that they could have a negative effect on hydration due to caffeine in the tea. Now I know that while it wouldn't be as good as pure water would it have an actual negative effect?

[screenexile]

Have a look at this about hydration.

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/hydrationandfluid/a/ProperHydration.htm

As for the caffeine thing well I was always led to believe that it was a diuretic and made you lose more water than you were gaining much like alcohol and that drinking caffeine would cause you to become dehydrated but apparently through recent study this is not the case although most articles say to drink it in moderation.

[Zulu]

Lads on another slightly different note, I know hydration is a major part for a training regime. I know there are certain drinks that are better for you with regards to hydration such as the isotonic drinks etc. Now I was wondering, is an isotonic drink that much of an improvement on water?
Now as a big fan of me cups o tae, I was told years ago that they could have a negative effect on hydration due to caffeine in the tea. Now I know that while it wouldn't be as good as pure water would it have an actual negative effect?

Water is fine for GAA type activities, you don't need isotonic drinks. Drink plenty of water on a regular basis but in our climate and considering the duration of a football match, dehydration shouldn't impact too much on a player.

[AbbeySider]

Lads on another slightly different note, I know hydration is a major part for a training regime. I know there are certain drinks that are better for you with regards to hydration such as the isotonic drinks etc. Now I was wondering, is an isotonic drink that much of an improvement on water?
Now as a big fan of me cups o tae, I was told years ago that they could have a negative effect on hydration due to caffeine in the tea. Now I know that while it wouldn't be as good as pure water would it have an actual negative effect?

We spoke to a dietitian that said the if you mix orange juice or fruit juce with water you get the same hydration effect as isotonic drinks.

Im not sure how true that is. But the isotonic drinks contain more carbs with I suppose provides more energy.

I also hear that a pint of water with a pinch of salt is good to re-hydrate and replace lost salts after training.

Tea and Coffee have caffeine which is a diuretic and will make you more dehydrated and  in effect you will pass more liquid than you consume. Also tea promotes anxiety in some people.

However, I know of people who are fond of the Red Bull type drinks before rugby matches or GAA training/matches. There is also supplements out there loaded with caffeine for energy. I have never tried any of that stuff so I cant offer an opinion but I dont think I would take red-bull before training. Its better suited to vodka.   

[INDIANA]

lads michael phelps has 3 cups of coffee for breakfast. I don't buy this idea one cup of coffee a day is going to make a major impact on hydration. I wouldn't drink one directly before a match or training , but having one the the same day will have little or no impact on your performance. that i can guarantee.
I don't see an issue with whey protein or ordinary protein. I found creatine a complete waste of time. Simply doesn't work for everyone's metabolism. In the name of god don't go buying anything on the internet or anything in a health shop that looks iffy.
Vast amounts of these products are spiked. Most county teams have any product tested in a laboratory, they simply have to in the current climate.

[AbbeySider]

lads michael phelps has 3 cups of coffee for breakfast. I don't buy this idea one cup of coffee a day is going to make a major impact on hydration. I wouldn't drink one directly before a match or training , but having one the the same day will have little or no impact on your performance. that i can guarantee.

I would agree there. Im not really used to drinking coffee but I have had the odd cup in the mornings if I was feeling tired or was having problems concentrating. Dont think it particularly dehydrates you if you continue drinking water during the day.

Speaking of Phelps, I was thinking about his diet too today, and its crazy. I think most GAA footballers/hurlers watch what they eat and try and eat healthy. I know of footballers who dont eat red meat. I know of footballers who boil their sausages. But other athletes seem to eat what they like for energy which is a contradiction to what we are told.

I for one hardly ever eat anything fried and try to eat as healthy as possible, even cutting down on red meat. If training hard, the most I manage is two dinners in a day. However a guy at work with us competes in Iron Man Triathlons and he eats a crazy amounts of food. He does 2 runs a week, both 11k. He cycles 15k and swims 2k a week. I asked him about energy levels, which he said is mostly psychological but what he had today (so far) is unreal; On his rest day....

A full Irish breakfast (yes a full big fry-up), 4 slices of white toast, 1 bowl of cornflakes, 2 bowls of porridge, orange Juice, 2 bananas. He said he will have a full dinner for lunch, and a full dinner this evening and maybe a sandwich or two later. On training days he also takes energy drinks and even more food.

All that food, especially the type of food goes against every impulse of healthy eating I have.

The Michael Phelps Diet....

Coming in at a mere 12,000 calories ( Yes, Twelve Thousand )

Breakfast: Three fried-egg sandwiches loaded with cheese, lettuce, tomatoes, fried onions and mayonnaise. Two cups of coffee. One five-egg omelet. One bowl of grits. Three slices of French toast topped with powdered sugar. Three chocolate-chip pancakes.

Lunch: One pound of enriched pasta. Two large ham and cheese sandwiches with mayo on white bread. Energy drinks packing 1,000 calories.

Dinner: One pound of pasta. An entire pizza. More energy drinks.