John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?

Started by sid waddell, June 09, 2020, 11:20:38 AM

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sid waddell

How can GAA clubs continue to honour this man?

To remove his name would not be to "erase history", as is so often and so wrongly used as a defence of the glorification of such awful historical figures.

It would be to recognise history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mitchel

Mitchel claimed that slaves in the southern United States were better cared for and fed than Irish cottiers, or industrial workers in English cities like Manchester. He was explicitly racist, saying negroes were "an innately inferior people"[21] and opining "We deny that it is a crime, or a wrong, or even a peccadillo to hold slaves, to buy slaves, to keep slaves to their work by flogging or other needful correction. We wish we had a good plantation well-stocked with healthy negroes in Alabama."[22][23] In correspondence with his good friend John Kenyon, he stated that he wanted to make the people of the US "proud and fond of [slavery] as a national institution, and advocate its extension by re-opening the trade in Negroes."[24] He claimed that slavery was inherently moral and "good in itself" and stated that he "promotes it for its own sake."[24]

He opposed the emancipation of the Jews, which he considered against the will of God.[25]

In 1857 in Knoxville, Tennessee, he founded a new paper, the Southern Citizen, to promote "the value and virtue of slavery, both for negroes and white men", advocate the reopening of the African slave trade and encourage the spread of slavery into the American West.[21] He moved the paper to Washington in 1859. When the Civil War broke out in 1861 he moved to Richmond, Virginia, the Confederate capital, to edit the powerful Richmond Enquirer.[27] As a spokesman for the cause of the South, he was the first to claim that slavery and abolition were not the cause of the conflict but simply used as a pretence.


seafoid

"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Milltown Row2

Was thus information not known at the time of clubs formation? Did the clubs just randomly take on these names?
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

J70

Its definitely something that needs to discussed. He is not honoured for his views on/defence of blacks/slavery like all those figures in the southern US, but it is still part of his legacy.


sid waddell

Quote from: seafoid on June 09, 2020, 12:47:33 PM
How much money did he make from slavery ?
I don't know. Why does it matter?

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2020, 12:53:06 PM
Was thus information not known at the time of clubs formation? Did the clubs just randomly take on these names?
I don't know. Why does it matter?

grounded

One flaw with this, and it is Whataboutery!
         I would say many, if not most of the founding members of the GAA would hold many views that would be very controversial/unacceptable according to todays standards.
          Who decides?

whitey

I also think that any GAA club (or Pitch) named after current of former members of the IRA should be renamed as a token of goodwill toward our neighbors on the other side of the divide

Rossfan

Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

armaghniac

If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Rossfan

Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

J70

Quote from: grounded on June 09, 2020, 02:05:49 PM
One flaw with this, and it is Whataboutery!
         I would say many, if not most of the founding members of the GAA would hold many views that would be very controversial/unacceptable according to todays standards.
          Who decides?

Yes, judging past figures by the standard of the present is always problematic. But in Mitchel's case there are explicit writings and pronouncements on the subject, even if he is honoured for his role in the Irish struggle against the British.

This is obviously something that is going to be a big issue across the western world. In some cases, statues will come down and places be renamed. In others, supplemental or revised descriptions/explanations might be sufficient.

Obviously something that is going to demand a lot of discussion.

general_lee

Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 02:10:22 PM
I also think that any GAA club (or Pitch) named after current of former members of the IRA should be renamed as a token of goodwill toward our neighbors on the other side of the divide
Just out of curiosity how many grounds would this be? Does it apply pre-1969?
As for competitions, how many overall have offending names?
Grounds I can think of off the top of my head - Dromintee, St Teresa's?, one in Fermanagh. Any more?
Competitions - Derry intermediate? Joe Cahill u12? Any others?
Clubs? 

whitey

Quote from: general_lee on June 09, 2020, 02:55:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 02:10:22 PM
I also think that any GAA club (or Pitch) named after current of former members of the IRA should be renamed as a token of goodwill toward our neighbors on the other side of the divide
Just out of curiosity how many grounds would this be? Does it apply pre-1969?
As for competitions, how many overall have offending names?
Grounds I can think of off the top of my head - Dromintee, St Teresa's?, one in Fermanagh. Any more?
Competitions - Derry intermediate? Joe Cahill u12? Any others?
Clubs?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/naming-of-clubs-after-fanatics-shouldn-t-be-tolerated-by-the-gaa-1.1575008

I don't think any club or ground should be named in memory of a person in case people are offended by something that person said or did in the past

Let's just call all clubs by the name of the town

general_lee

Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:04:02 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 09, 2020, 02:55:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 02:10:22 PM
I also think that any GAA club (or Pitch) named after current of former members of the IRA should be renamed as a token of goodwill toward our neighbors on the other side of the divide
Just out of curiosity how many grounds would this be? Does it apply pre-1969?
As for competitions, how many overall have offending names?
Grounds I can think of off the top of my head - Dromintee, St Teresa's?, one in Fermanagh. Any more?
Competitions - Derry intermediate? Joe Cahill u12? Any others?
Clubs?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/naming-of-clubs-after-fanatics-shouldn-t-be-tolerated-by-the-gaa-1.1575008

I don't think any club or ground should be named in memory of a person in case people are offended by something that person said or did in the past

Let's just call all clubs by the name of the town

That's a really shitty and disingenuous article. Not that I'm necessarily against changing the rules around naming clubs, I just wonder where the buck stops? Also many towns numerous clubs.

whitey

I was just pointing out that if we go down this road......where does it stop?

On the Mayo blog a few years ago someone  suggested that Dia is Muire Lin should be removed from the crest as it was exclusionary to those of other faiths and no faith