Money, Dublin and the GAA

[Rossfan]

Crowds already dropping at Dublin games this year.
AZ -if Offaly or Ros ever  win an AI again you or I won't give 2 flying fcks who they bate along the way -whether it's Fingal, North Kildare, Thomond,  South Ulster or anyone else.

[sid waddell]

No reason why a North Dublin/South Dublin set-up or the like couldn't at least be trialled if the current trend continues. Unless things have changed from the many years I lived in Dublin myself, there is already a healthy cultural rivalry there.

It really isn't that simple.

Plenty of Dublin GAA people might identify on some level as being Northsiders or Southsiders, but that identity is firmly in the hapenny place compared to their identity as Dubs. They've all grown up supporting one Dublin team. There is a stronger Northside identity than a Southside one. I'm a southsider technically as the area I grew up in is just south of the Liffey but very few in the area I grew up in would identify as being Southside. The Southside thing is mainly confined to places where rugby is strong. My Da is a Northsider and in many ways I feel more of an affinity with the Northside than I do with the Southside for cultural reasons.

Consider how people in your own county might react if it was either forcibly split in two or forced to amalgamate with another county/counties.

I somehow doubt the people there would take it lying down. And it would be no different in Dublin. In fact there would be war, in metaphorical terms, over it.

People who suggest splitting Dublin need to be aware that it would be the most controversial issue in Irish sporting history by a million miles. It would completely dwarf Saipan, Michelle Smith, Rule 42 and the Henry handball put together.

Dublin people would struggle to identify with the new teams because these would not be the teams that they have grown up supporting. It would likely cause immense harm to the GAA in Dublin and it's likely that many people in Dublin would end up walking away from the GAA altogether over the issue.

It would also detract from any future All-Irelands won by other counties.

It's an issue that would be Brexit-like in terms of the chaos it would cause.

[Rossfan]

We're all wedded to Counties but it's a totally inequitable setup.

No All Ireland will lose its value because an area of 1.4 million is sub divided.
However the counter to sub dividing the Monster would be amalgamating smaller Counties.
But if we're all happy to have Dublin winning 8 or 9 All Irelands a decade.......

[ballinaman]

No reason why a North Dublin/South Dublin set-up or the like couldn't at least be trialled if the current trend continues. Unless things have changed from the many years I lived in Dublin myself, there is already a healthy cultural rivalry there.

It really isn't that simple.

Plenty of Dublin GAA people might identify on some level as being Northsiders or Southsiders, but that identity is firmly in the hapenny place compared to their identity as Dubs. They've all grown up supporting one Dublin team. There is a stronger Northside identity than a Southside one. I'm a southsider technically as the area I grew up in is just south of the Liffey but very few in the area I grew up in would identify as being Southside. The Southside thing is mainly confined to places where rugby is strong. My Da is a Northsider and in many ways I feel more of an affinity with the Northside than I do with the Southside for cultural reasons.

Consider how people in your own county might react if it was either forcibly split in two or forced to amalgamate with another county/counties.

I somehow doubt the people there would take it lying down. And it would be no different in Dublin. In fact there would be war, in metaphorical terms, over it.

People who suggest splitting Dublin need to be aware that it would be the most controversial issue in Irish sporting history by a million miles. It would completely dwarf Saipan, Michelle Smith, Rule 42 and the Henry handball put together.

Dublin people would struggle to identify with the new teams because these would not be the teams that they have grown up supporting. It would likely cause immense harm to the GAA in Dublin and it's likely that many people in Dublin would end up walking away from the GAA altogether over the issue.

It would also detract from any future All-Irelands won by other counties.

It's an issue that would be Brexit-like in terms of the chaos it would cause.

I can't see Dubs ever going for it because I reckon deep down they just enjoy winning, it becomes addictive. I doubt Dublin really care if the sport is competitive or not...sure Celtic and Bayern supporters are hardly flinching at the prospect of inevitable championships every year .

[Cunny Funt]

Ciaran Whelan and Alan Brogan give their views on the anti-Dublin begrudges.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/ciaran-whelan-the-truth-might-be-hard-to-take-for-some-but-theres-no-link-between-dublins-success-and-money-37293277.html

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/alan-brogan-dublin-worked-slavishly-hard-for-their-allireland-successes-and-its-an-insult-to-attribute-it-to-money-37290634.html

Well said lads. We don't fight back enough.

I'm just going to take this bit from Whelan

It really boils down to an exceptional group of players arriving at the same time

Dublin have used 31 different starters on their 2011 to 2018 All Ireland winning teams in comparison Kerry 1978 to 1982 had just 18 different starters.   When that group of Kerry players got older they fell away while Dublin are keeping the average age of their team low and with the players to come through yet will keep things ticking over in the years ahead.


Some also had the view that Dublin weren't as good this year as recent years and would miss Connolly come the business end yet they ended strolling to another All Ireland and ended up scoring more this summer than any of their other All Ireland winning teams and what they conceded was on par with previous years. 

[Maroon Manc]

I don't understand the defensiveness. I don't think anyone (maybe I'm wrong) is saying this team is only winning because of money. They work hard, are very well organised, have some excellent players and are the best team in the country no matter where you play them or when.

Are people denying that there is an inequity in funding, or that Dublin get a disproportionate amount of funding direct from CC, in addition to the multiples of 'revenue streams' they can generate by getting sponsorship etc based on their location and demographics? If people are denying that, when it has been accepted as at least needing review by several leading GAA officials over the past couple of years, then I don't think there's much more point debating it.

But those people, I would just say one thing. If the 16m has not contributed to structures, coaching and games development, and has not at least had a significant effect on the creation of the current situation in Leinster, then just stop accepting the money. If it hasn't been useful, then it's a criminal waste of money. If it has been useful, then at least acknowledge it.

I do not want to split up Dublin. Screw that. You want to play the Dubs and beat the Dubs, not Fingal or Rathdown. But review the financial situation to at least allow an amateur game be played on a footing where the only advantages Dublin have are the ones they've always had. Population, Home Advantage in massive games, and an inherent cockiness

Dublin won't win 6 or 7 All Irelands in a row. They will be caught one fine day by Kerry, or Mayo, or Galway, or Tyrone or someone who emerges to join he chasing pack. But when that day comes, it will not be some indication of the 'end' of Dublin. Unless the controllable inequities are addressed, the machine will keep turning, and out of the next 20 All Irelands, Dublin will probably win 14 or 15 of them.

That's about the height of it. And is that what Dublin really want? If it continues down this road, people, including Dubs, are going to stop watching. Even in the relatively close (on the scoreboard) games they played this year, Dublin NEVER looked in any danger of not winning at their leisure. The final was over after 25 minutes. We were only three or four points down very near the end of the first Super 8 game, yet it never seemed as if they were in any way troubled by what we were offering. Dublin could have beaten us by ten points, easily, if they'd been bothered. They knew it. We knew it. Same with Tyrone on Sunday, where the Dubs even engaged in a bit of keep-ball with more than 20 minutes left.

I disagree on splitting Dublin. Not saying it should definitely happen, but it absolutely should be on the table going forward. And yes, there has always been a structural player-base inequality to gaelic games, given the geographical/religious units around which it is organized, but does that mean that no steps can be taken anywhere? Teams have split and amalgamated below the county level many times. St. Joseph's were winning all ahead of them in Donegal back in the late 60s and 70s (even had success in Ulster, which no other Donegal senior club has done) before the county said enough is enough and split them back up into Aodh Rua and Bundoran. Similarly, albeit to less success so far, trophy-wise, Letterkenny Gaels were formed in the 90s to cater for the growing population of the town and offer an alternative outlet to Eunan's. No reason why a North Dublin/South Dublin set-up or the like couldn't at least be trialled if the current trend continues. Unless things have changed from the many years I lived in Dublin myself, there is already a healthy cultural rivalry there.

It was something I was never in favour off and said a few years ago lets see what happens over the next few years, roll forwards to 2018 and they've just won 4 in a row with team which has an average age of 25. T

[trileacman]

The splitting of Dublin is now not just an idea or suggestion it's a absolute certainty. It's either split Dublin or amalgamate the non-pale teams into large provincial sides.

So the argument is to disrupt the history and cultural significance of one county team or do the same to countless county sides. It'll be a 31 v 1 vote and it's only going to go one way.

The problem is that the GAA is so conservative and stagnant it will dissuade itself from the pain of the nuclear option until it's far too late, with piecemeal actions up until then.

The GAA will wait until the game has died before they try and save it.

[Minder]

They have won their last 4 All Ireland's by 3 pts, 1pt (after replay), 1pt & 6 points. Not exactly blowing teams away in finals so I doubt you will see Dublin split.

[manfromdelmonte]

coaching money breakdown

[Syferus]

You should know well what GAA Ulster means.
But just in case you don't it's Donegal, Cavan,  Monaghan and the Nationalist population of the 6 Counties.

Sure why not just say Ulster then? Or does Dublin not have a bigger population than Ulster

Not everyone in Ulster is potentially a GAA head. There are a few Unionists apparently

I doubt everyone in Dublin is ta potential GAA head. Plenty of egg chasers and soccer types there

Not to mention the many in Dublin from other counties who could never bring themselves to support a Dublin team (some of whom are regular contributors to this forum).

..and who spawn little GAA mad Dublin rugrats when the time comes.. Christ, how do you drive if you're that cross-eyed?

Oh right, you have a world class public transport system so you don't need to.

The notion that Dublin has a world class public transport system is the funniest thing I've ever read on this forum.   

Go to most other similarly-sized cities in the western world and you're going to be praising the efficiency and reliability of Dublin Bus..

I've lived in Manchester Liverpool and London. And no I won't be.

It would take someone like you to think Manchester and Dublin are similarly sized, let alone London. Chirst alive.

[Rossfan]

coaching money breakdown

Nuff said.

[Wildweasel74]

Well all that  money didn't stop Derry dropping To divs 4 in 3yrs

[Syferus]

Well all that  money didn't stop Derry dropping To divs 4 in 3yrs

"All that"

[From the Bunker]

Well all that  money didn't stop Derry dropping To divs 4 in 3yrs

Or stop them getting to a League final.

[GalwayBayBoy]

Well I'll just leave this here.

Dublin are role models for Irish life'
   
Saturday, September 08, 2018

By John Fogarty

Seven years ago three-time All-Ireland winner David Hickey, then a Dublin selector, told friends his county would become the first team to complete the illustrious five in a row. Undaunted by the defeats to Mayo and Donegal in 2012 and 2014 respectively, he repeated those claims as one of their team doctors two years ago. Now as a supporter, his joy is unbridled seeing the team on the cusp of that achievement.

"I'm not saying we are going to win for 10 years but I think Dublin are in a position now to compete in the last four for the next 10 years."

David Hickey, September 2011

"Mark my words, kiddo, we're gonna win five in a row."

David Hickey, April 2013

"I've seen them develop and from the very start, 2010 on, these guys were going to be around for a long time. I expected them to do the five in a row back then (2011) and in some ways they could have been going for six in a row now with a bit of luck. They are a special group of players."

David Hickey, August 2016
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On a sticky Dubai night last Sunday evening, Dr David Hickey took to a bar to watch his beloved Dublin take a step closer to his prophecy.

Dubai has been his home for the last couple of years. In June 2016, he performed the first successful organ transplant in the United Arab Emirates, helping an Emirati mother who had kidney failure due to diabetes.

World-renowned as a transplant surgeon, Hickey is enjoying the Middle East life as he did the Cuban one but this is not an interview about medicine. It's obviously about Dublin, his Dublin, but the GAA too.

Work precluded him from returning home for the final but then a lot of what is going on around him in Dubai echoes of Ireland. The proliferation of GAA clubs in the UAE thrills him.

"The GAA are the true Irish embassy abroad," he declares.

"There are 20,000 Irish here. The GAA clubs help people find jobs, help find them accommodation, help them settle and generate the community spirit.

"They do this around the world. The GAA could never be reimbursed by the Irish government for what they do for the young people who were forced to or chose to leave Ireland."

So when the GAA got it in the neck for not initially agreeing to host the Liam Miller charity game in Páirc Uí Chaoimh, he was miffed. When he read of Government ministers leaning heavy on Croke Park to allow it to go ahead there, he was angry.

"That's f**king bullshit. If the GAA sent a bill to the Government for the amount of social work it does in Ireland and abroad, helping to keep kids out of jail, off drugs, whatever, the bill would far surpass that stadium in Cork."

With Hickey, it's not fury that colours his words but passion. As a lifesaver, his moral compass doesn't falter. His love of life is pretty unwavering too, particularly when his county are flying so high. Four days after the win over Tyrone, and he is still glowing.

"The pub was full of Tyrone people but at half-time they all left.

"They knew it was inevitable. Had Tyrone sustained what they showed in the first 15 minutes for 80 minutes, and Dublin kept playing the way they were playing, Tyrone might have had a chance.

"It was easy compared to the last few years.

"I think Dublin are unbeatable. You can play them anyway you want and they'll come up with a plan to counter you, beat you and they can do it on the field."

"They are very efficient sizing up a team themselves as the game is going on. They are totally impervious to any tactics like sledging or cynical stuff. They don't let that sort of shit get to them. It's a waste of time deploying that against them."

A message from Ollie Campbell after the game prolonged Hickey's grin.

"He texted me from the States to say that he felt like he was watching the All Blacks."

Hickey knows where the Ireland rugby great is coming from — and it's not just the sweeping the sheds policy the groups share (journalists can't forget Jack McCaffrey searching in vain for a brush before finding one to clean the team's Portlaoise dressing room against Carlow last year). Both are practising domination.

Last week, Mick O'Dwyer said comparing teams from different eras was impossible but mentioned that Dublin first had to emulate his Kerry team of 1978-81 before any analysis could be done.

For Hickey, there is no comparison.

"There can be no debate anymore — this Dublin team is the greatest team of all time. Kerry in 1980 played one match before an All-Ireland semi-final and the game before that All-Ireland semi-final wasn't up to much either. In three games, they were the All-Ireland champions. They didn't win too many leagues but this Dublin team have won virtually every game they have played.

"If there was a competition in Ballymac-whatever-it-is, these guys would turn out and put in their best performance. They never go out just to fulfil the fixture. They put on the Dublin jersey and transform into whatever you like. They bring every quality that a top-class sports team in any field bring." '

Keeping a Blue head' is an All Blacks term for clarity that would appeal to Dublin for obvious reasons. But then "Better People Make Better All Blacks" and "No Dickheads" would too.

Hickey can testify to that having seen the last two managers at work.

"Both Pat Gilroy and Jim Gavin deserve so much credit for recognising the human qualities in the players that are key reasons behind their success. These players are modest people, there is no showboating, there is no triumphalism and they are respectful of everyone from Carlow up to Kerry. They all get the same respect and when a team adopts that attitude, they are very hard to beat."

You can almost imagine his chest swelling as he speaks of his Raheny clubmen.

"They're sensational footballers and incredibly nice guys as well. They have everything. Brian Howard and Brian Fenton, they could play any sport they want and they would be world class in it but the fact is they decided to play football for Dublin. They're a pleasure to meet. You wouldn't know Fenton has never lost a championship game or has four All-Irelands if you met him on the street."

It's quite the departure from 16 years ago when the Dublin team aimed to make the most of its size and what made the capital different to the rest of the country as opposed to what made it better.

"Tommy Lyons brought a lot of bullshit into the thing with flair, humiliating the opposition, playing to the Hill. Pillar (Caffrey) tried to get rid of a bit of that but Pat Gilroy came in and he got rid of that all in one swoop and it has continued to this day under Jim.

"When they select fellas for the panel the character of the player is as important to them as their football ability. Football ability is not enough."

Ask Hickey about his grand pronunciations about how he envisaged the decade going for Dublin and all he does is remark that it was there for anyone in his position to see. The love he had for wearing the blue and navy was matched by the current group and it was complemented by the commitment.

"Playing for Dublin was the important thing in my life and I knew from the talent that was there they were going to win an All-Ireland and I wanted to be a part of it. And I got to know them better and suddenly I realised they were going to win a lot of All-Irelands.

"With a bit of luck, they'd have won in 2012 and '14 and could be going for eight in a row. In 2010, they were fairly unlucky against Cork. We were robbed against Mayo in 2012 and walked into a sucker punch against Donegal in 2014 but I tell you what, Jim Gavin and his backroom team learned from 2014 and the evolution of their football now is thanks to Donegal."



Who will be next to beat Dublin in Championship is quite the puzzler when so many seem to be coming up short too many times or in need of urgent repairs. Hickey's pick is a slightly surprising one.

"I was impressed by Kildare this year, not Kerry. They have some very good footballers and if they get their heads right — they've won a lot of underage stuff — they could be the biggest challengers to Dublin over the next five years. I like the way they play football, I always liked the way they play football — and I think they could be the biggest challenge.

"Second-rate teams don't have the interest and commitment (that Dublin) do.

"Mayo in many ways is a small place. Their players are everywhere from Galway to Dublin to home. They have had the balls to try and beat Dublin fair and square. At times, they were unfair but they had a plan to try and execute it. While I don't believe they were unlucky to lose any of those All-Irelands — in fact, I think they were lucky to have lost by as little as they did because Dublin were significantly better than them. Dean Rock's point last year was a blessing to Mayo because they would have been decimated in extra-time.

"If Donegal and Mayo can go and beat Dublin then there's no reason why Kerry or Cork can't do it but they need to be putting everything into it. It means the total cooperation of the county board, a group of players who get on well together and who'd live and die for each other on and off the field. That's what we have in Dublin and it shouldn't be damned into insignificance because of this and that."

What Hickey is getting at is the sniping at Dublin after this latest success and those of the previous three years because of their population and funding largesses. When he hears Colm O'Rourke beat the drum to split Dublin, he says O'Rourke look at what his own county can do to bridge the gap rather than haul Dublin back towards them.

"The thing about that whole attitude is these guys are winning because they're better than everyone else. It's a pity about the attitude to Dublin city. It is begrudgery. Colm could do something about it by getting more lads interesting in playing for Meath and doing what it takes to get to the top. Going to training at 6am, going back in the evening to do weights in the gym. Cancelling holidays. Cancelling girlfriends. Giving up alcohol, comfort food. This Dublin team have made the sacrifices.

"In the 1970s when we were going well, they got rid of the handpass because they wanted to reduce a strength of our team. They didn't do the same to anybody else.

"So now I would tell anyone thinking like that now to f**k off. Nobody spoke of splitting Barcelona, Real Madrid or Manchester United when they have been successful."

The son of a Doneraile man and a Knocklong woman, Hickey doesn't want to knock country people but he identifies a lot of begrudgery towards Dublin. The funding argument laid against Gavin's side he finds is tenuous when tradition is a big factor elsewhere and the distractions aren't as pronounced.

"There's probably more footballers in Kerry than in Dublin. There is nothing else but football in Kerry and nothing else but hurling in Kilkenny. In Dublin, there is soccer, rugby, basketball, hockey, baseball, dancing, swimming.

"That aside, there are 30 fellas there in the Dublin panel and Eoghan O'Gara would be on any other team in the country. He has been in and out of the Dublin team since 2010 and every time he comes in he makes an impact. He didn't get to play in the final this year and yet he would have turned up in the A versus B games as if his life depended on it. I can tell you the full-back line of Dublin benefitted immensely from Eoghan turning up and performing in those practice matches every Saturday afternoon.

"There's Kevin McManamon, Paul Flynn, Michael Darragh Macauley, Bernard Brogan... all these fellas didn't bitch or moan when they lost their spots. A new breed is there and settled into the team but there is such a culture of oneness.

"They are a model not just for sports teams but for business teams, for politicians, for everyone. They are role models for Irish life."

What would Kevin Heffernan think of it all?

"He'd be jealous he's not running it. He was happy enough with our team but he'd like to be Jim Gavin now. This didn't happen overnight. It took 16 years to win the first All-Ireland this decade and it went through a few set of hands like Pillar Caffrey's. Dublin went to the grassroots and they made Gaelic football accessible and they made Gaelic football attractive and they made it fair for young people, which soccer isn't.

"Soccer exploits young people, Gaelic football tries to develop them."