MPs unite to fight law that will make abortions available in Northern Ireland

[pintsofguinness]

It is a fetus or a bunch of cells regardless of my agenda - whats your agenda here? You have sidestepped every question that isnt one of your own, and most of your most recent ones are scrapping the bottom of the barrell. You really are acting a fool of epic proportions, but the thing is, you are no fool. Why play one?

I don't have an agenda, simply expressing my views - which doesn't make me a fool btw, even if you don't agree with them.
What questions haven't I answered?

[Puckoon]

You really are acting a fool of epic proportions, but the thing is, you are no fool. Why play one?

It is a fetus or a bunch of cells regardless of my agenda - whats your agenda here? You have sidestepped every question that isnt one of your own, and most of your most recent ones are scrapping the bottom of the barrell. You really are acting a fool of epic proportions, but the thing is, you are no fool. Why play one?

I don't have an agenda, simply expressing my views - which doesn't make me a fool btw, even if you don't agree with them.
What questions haven't I answered?

I think I made the fool distinction very clear - like everything else Ive tried to debate.

Your agenda appears to be an unwillingness to debate rationally, except to throw out ridiculous questions like why wouldnt a pro choice person rub salt in the wounds of a miscarried mother by telling her it was only a clump of cells. If you cant see the foolishness in asking a question like that, or the sidestepping of the real issue with even presenting such an irrational scenario like that in what should be a rational debate - then the thread has run its course - and of course the magic words you are looking for - you've won!


The defense has no further questions your honour - we rest our case and throw our mercy upon the jury of our peers, who in time may see us not for cold hearted baby murderers, but rather, well - I guess there is no alternative - supporters of the cold blooded murder of wee innocent babies must be what we are.

[Maguire01]

So basically Maguire, you have you think a woman should be able to abort a baby if it's not the sex she wants?

What does that mean?

To quote my own post for an afterthought - evidence surely that 'pro-choice' does not necessarily mean 'pro-abortion'.

Course it does.

No, it doesn't. It's allowing others to make their own decisions. Those decisions may or may not be abortion.

You still haven't told me what constitutes human life by the way.

A autonomous living human being with a heartbeat and consciousness.

[pintsofguinness]

What does that mean?

I'm just surprised that you think the sex of a baby is an acceptable reason abortion or have I picked you up wrong?

[Maguire01]

What does that mean?

I'm just surprised that you think the sex of a baby is an acceptable reason abortion or have I picked you up wrong?

I just couldn't understand your post - it didn't make sense. I have already said that i don't think sex should be an acceptable reason if the woman otherwise wanted a baby.

[Tankie]

Do most of the NO camp find abortion acceptable in certain cases like for a rape victam or if the mothers life is at risk etc?

[hmmm]

As an aside to this debate, maybe a question that should be asked is why do we live in a society where so many women feel that abortion is their only option? Is it the shame still associated with having a child out of wedlock? The perception that an unplanned pregnancy ruins your life? Or the fear that you will have no support from family/friends/boyfriend?

[Tankie]

As an aside to this debate, maybe a question that should be asked is why do we live in a society where so many women feel that abortion is their only option? Is it the shame still associated with having a child out of wedlock? The perception that an unplanned pregnancy ruins your life? Or the fear that you will have no support from family/friends/boyfriend?

i think each woman see's it differently, for example a girl under 25 may not want to have a baby as it will stop the from finishing their exams or traveling for a year, but some under 25's are married and cant wait to have a baby. this is why the choice is so important as it is different for every situation!

[Chrisowc]

As an aside to this debate, maybe a question that should be asked is why do we live in a society where so many women feel that abortion is their only option? Is it the shame still associated with having a child out of wedlock? The perception that an unplanned pregnancy ruins your life? Or the fear that you will have no support from family/friends/boyfriend?

i think each woman see's it differently, for example a girl under 25 may not want to have a baby as it will stop the from finishing their exams or traveling for a year, but some under 25's are married and cant wait to have a baby. this is why the choice is so important as it is different for every situation!

Precisely why there shouldn't be a choice.

[Tony Baloney]

As an aside to this debate, maybe a question that should be asked is why do we live in a society where so many women feel that abortion is their only option? Is it the shame still associated with having a child out of wedlock? The perception that an unplanned pregnancy ruins your life? Or the fear that you will have no support from family/friends/boyfriend?

i think each woman see's it differently, for example a girl under 25 may not want to have a baby as it will stop the from finishing their exams or traveling for a year, but some under 25's are married and cant wait to have a baby. this is why the choice is so important as it is different for every situation!

What else Tankie, they won't be able to fit into their favourite jeans?

[Tankie]

As an aside to this debate, maybe a question that should be asked is why do we live in a society where so many women feel that abortion is their only option? Is it the shame still associated with having a child out of wedlock? The perception that an unplanned pregnancy ruins your life? Or the fear that you will have no support from family/friends/boyfriend?

i think each woman see's it differently, for example a girl under 25 may not want to have a baby as it will stop the from finishing their exams or traveling for a year, but some under 25's are married and cant wait to have a baby. this is why the choice is so important as it is different for every situation!

What else Tankie, they won't be able to fit into their favourite jeans?

Not everone see's having a baby as this wonderful giving of life that you may have. in this day and age alot of people dont want to or are not ready to have kids before they are 30 (i know i dont want them till after that) and to make a 21 yr old have a baby just beause of your beliefs is crazy. Same applys to rape victams etc, why should they have the baby if they dont want it?

[Maximus Marillius]

Have any of ye read Mr Brain Feeney's coloum in th irish news today...good article and worth a read....it is linked to this thread. can anyone post it.

[Rav67]

Backing Brown in June doesn't look too clever now
Brian Feeney
By Brian Feeney The Wednesday Column
30/07/08

Peter Robinson's decision to back Gordon Brown's proposal for 42-day detention isn't looking too clever now.

It was always a high-risk tactic.

You couldn't dignify it with the word 'strategy', for it was just naked opportunism.

It looked as if it had worked out just dandy when Brown got his proposal through with exactly the same number of votes as DUP MPs.

We were then treated to the party's soothsayer, G Campbell, crowing about how in the future (for as soothsayer he specialises in

prediction) the DUP would be regularly selling their votes for whatever benefits they could achieve for Norn Irn.

Obviously in his mind that nine-vote margin could be dangled in front of Brown again and again. He was delighted with himself. Hubris fairly dripped from every word.

What poor Gregory hadn't appreciated was the well of anger the DUP's opportunism had tapped in both Labour and Conservative parties.

As you read here at the time, it's

always impossible to understate the outrage you cause by keeping an unpopular government in power beyond its time.

David Cameron's lot were furious with Peter Robinson for saving Brown's bacon. If he'd been

defeated on the 42-day motion by his own party he would have had to go and there would have been an election. The DUP denied the

Conservatives that summer election.

On the Labour side, the left wing has found its voice again after the departure of Blair and their deep disappointment with Brown's

deception of them for a decade. They smelt blood, only to have the prospect of Brown's bleeding carcass whipped away from them at the last moment.

As a result, the DUP have made many powerful enemies at Westminster with no compensating reward for themselves. Their hope now of controlling a hung parliament is laughable.

Brown is finished. The only question is whether he limps on until June 2010 and inflicts a defeat on the Labour party as catastrophic as John Major's Gotterdamerung in 1997 or does the decent thing and falls on his sword in the autumn in time to allow a caretaker leader to take over. What no-one disputes is that Cameron's Conservatives will have a large majority.

Robinson's efforts to mend fences with Cameron failed. Cameron spurned him for the UUP because he knows he won't need the DUP.

Besides, no modern party could have anything to do with them.

The DUP is toxic. Iris Robinson's Neanderthal views – perhaps that's an insult to Neanderthals – have made the party untouchable for a man trying to modernise Conservatism. DUP speeches in Westminster produce derisory laughter from the few MPs who stay lolling on the benches to listen.

As for the Labour rebels, they remain furious Gordon Brown courted the DUP to get his hated

42 days through. No-one wants to be associated with a bunch of cavemen.

One of the assurances the Labour left believe Brown gave the DUP was that the 1967 Abortion Act would not be extended to the north during the course of changes to the Human

Fertilisation and Embryology Bill.

Is it any coincidence then that a group of MPs led by Diane Abbott has tabled an amendment to the bill extending the act to the north and hopes to force a vote in the autumn? Funny they didn't do it in May isn't it?

Couldn't be anything to do with the DUP's stance on 42 days in June, could it?

It's a clever move because it's going to embarrass a lot of MPs, both Labour and Conservative, who will have to vote against a principle they supported in May.

Several may not vote against.

A matter like abortion in Northern Ireland is hardly a three-line whip.

A lot of MPs may not bother to turn up, certainly if it means doing any favours for the DUP.

Why would anyone? Who will want to support Westminster's most reactionary faction?

No-one owes them anything. If you can be bought, you can be sold.

What price now any guarantees Brown gave the DUP in June?

If he's still hanging onto the window ledge in the autumn, what clout will Brown have with his own party?

Backing Brown in June doesn't look too clever now.

[pintsofguinness]

As an aside to this debate, maybe a question that should be asked is why do we live in a society where so many women feel that abortion is their only option? Is it the shame still associated with having a child out of wedlock? The perception that an unplanned pregnancy ruins your life? Or the fear that you will have no support from family/friends/boyfriend?

Women feel abortion is an option because it's a get out clause - a way to run away from their responsibility. 
Shame associated with having a child out of wedlock?  Are you taking the piss?  I'd say this would be quite rare in Ireland these days and it certainly wouldn't be a factor in most other countries (England or the US to name but two). 


Tankie, we wouldn't want to put off travelling for a year now would we? 

Not everone see's having a baby as this wonderful giving of life that you may have. in this day and age alot of people dont want to or are not ready to have kids before they are 30 (i know i dont want them till after that) and to make a 21 yr old have a baby just beause of your beliefs is crazy. Same applys to rape victams etc, why should they have the baby if they dont want it?

No, but you face up to your responsibilities.  You seem to be trying to justify abortion - the ending of a life - with some pathetic arguments. If a 21 year old goes out and has sex then they are well fit to take the responsabilities (or potential responsabilities) that go wtih it.  In this day and age with contraception so readily available (and I know it's not always 100%) there aren't many excuses for unplanned pregnancies.

Rape victims are a completely different argument and abortions as a result of rape makes up a tiny (about 1% I think) of all abortions.

[hmmm]

There can be several factors as to why a woman chooses abortion, all of them are not because they are running away from responibilites. And on the second point, no I am not taking the piss, have you any idea how a single woman (especially in her teens) feels when she has a unplanned pregnancy? any idea what she feels if her boyfriend does a runner or how she feels when she has to try and tell her family? Like it or not there is still a stigma attached to a single girl/women getting pregnant and even worse if she is not in a stable relationship.