MPs unite to fight law that will make abortions available in Northern Ireland

Started by Maguire01, July 24, 2008, 10:15:49 PM

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Should the abortion act be extended to Northern Ireland?

Yes
47 (44.8%)
No
58 (55.2%)

Total Members Voted: 105

Puckoon

Quote from: Pangurban on July 25, 2008, 01:39:15 AM
Im disgusted at the licence given to the pro abortion lobby too describe themselves as pro-choice.  Blame and retribution should not be imposed on the innocent child, whose right to life is as sacred as theirs. This is not a societal problem it is a personal one, though as in so many areas of life those who lack any sense of responsibility look for society to bail them out of situations created by their fecklessness.


Where is this blame and retribution coming from? Who would be blaming an embryo? Why would someone look for retribution? What kind of nonsense heartstring tugging sentences are those?

How are people who seek out, fund travel and the expense of the proceedure seeing society to bail them out? Its not a social thing - if anything its one of the most private secrets a woman (and perhaps her partner) might ever have. Its so secret infact - that I wouldnt wager against any one of our extended family and friend circles having undergone such a trial. A far more worrying societal (?) trend are the people who procreate and deliver recklessly over and over and over and sponge welfare off the tax payers - let their kids run riot and destroy neighbourhoods. They are not only expecting society to pay for these miscreants, but also to be terrorised by them.

Further more, your comment about the right to life of the innocent child is the crux of the entire issue. People may say that those who favour abortion (as some people think due to their own seedy needs and wanton desires) can conveniently use the defintion of a human being as being after the legal limit for abortion. All i can offer is from a scientific viewpoint as Ive never had the need to consider abortion in my personal life. The current timeline IMHO tells me that the life of the parents (and Im not talking about people having abortions willy nilly) in a situation is more important than the potential for life coming from an embryo.





stephenite

Quote from: J70 on July 25, 2008, 05:00:06 AM
If people don't want to have kids, then either use contraceptives and be a man and deal with the consequences should something fail, or else keep your bloody trousers on!

I'd agree with some of that that - I am pro choice in circumstances where conception has occured where it shouldn't otherwise have, in the case of sexual abuse etc. I have no real personal experience on this issue in that it has never happened to me but I also don't believe I have the right to preach to someone else about what to do or what decision to make without having a full understanding of their personal circumstances.

I also feel that Luder has a bit of point.

To those that are anti-abortion on the grounds that all life is sacred, is contraception therefore not also an abomination? Do those who think that, what I would consider to be a clump of cells, believe that the consituents that make up those cells  (ie) sperm and egg, also scared? Where is the line between what they believe to be sacred and not.

My own opinion is that if you consider a foetus in early stage to be sacred then it's hypocritical to use contraception, withdraw method or even masturbate. If you're that bloody high minded on the sanctity of human life it should be all encompassing and not the bits that you like or are palatable to your own morals.

ludermor

Quote from: J70 on July 25, 2008, 05:00:06 AM
You think its ok for abortion to be used as a form of birth control?
You don't see a difference between preventing fertilization (and thus the beginning of a new life) by blocking sperm/ova from passing into the uterus and killing an embryo or a foetus?
If people don't want to have kids, then either use contraceptives and be a man and deal with the consequences should something fail, or else keep your bloody trousers on!

Thaks for the lecture J70.
Why is it so difficult for some people to accept that others have different opinions?

Gaoth Dobhair Abu

Quote from: ludermor on July 25, 2008, 09:03:48 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 25, 2008, 05:00:06 AM
You think its ok for abortion to be used as a form of birth control?
You don't see a difference between preventing fertilization (and thus the beginning of a new life) by blocking sperm/ova from passing into the uterus and killing an embryo or a foetus?
If people don't want to have kids, then either use contraceptives and be a man and deal with the consequences should something fail, or else keep your bloody trousers on!

Thaks for the lecture J70.
Why is it so difficult for some people to accept that others have different opinions?


Sorry, J70 was giving his opinion (he doesn't need me to defend him, but on this I agree with what he's said), because you disagree with his opinion, you try to belittle it by saying he's lecturing! Take your own advice.

On the topic, I believe that we are supposed to live in a democracy, the majority of our elected representatives and our society have said that they do not what this legislation to be brought in over here. Therefore it shouldn't.
Tbc....

unforgiven

The amendment hasn't a hope in hell of being passed.  Northern Ireland MPs hold a important role in Westminster, especially when it comes to close votes between Labour and Tories (ie. recent bill on holding suspected terrorists without charge).  If the Northern Ireland MPs don't want amendment passed then I can't see the other major parties opposing them, especially Labour given there tentative grip on power at the minute.

I'm quite happy with the situation as it stands here at present.  If a woman does make the decision to have an abortion here, at least she has to make an effort to do so and presumably has given the situation alot of thought.  It's not merely a matter of popping down the street to the nearest clinic.  I'm anti-abortion personally but at the end of the day I would never stand in the way of a woman to make that decision as it's her body and future which is primarily affected.

Even if the amendment were to be passed, I still think a girl would have alot of difficulty procuring an abortion.  There would be very few doctors and nursing staff that would be happy to do the procedure and unless there was a serious influx of staff from across the water or further abroad there would be major difficulties with staffing clinics/hospitals.




Zapatista

Quote from: tram on July 25, 2008, 10:52:50 AM
Quote from: unforgiven on July 25, 2008, 10:49:06 AM
The amendment hasn't a hope in hell of being passed.  Northern Ireland MPs hold a important role in Westminster, especially when it comes to close votes between Labour and Tories (ie. recent bill on holding suspected terrorists without charge).  If the Northern Ireland MPs don't want amendment passed then I can't see the other major parties opposing them, especially Labour given there tentative grip on power at the minute.
I reckon you're right. There's not a hope in hell of Gordon Brown wanting to upset the DUP9 after they basically saved his arse over the 42-day detention bill.

I'd say that debt has already been paid.

Gaoth Dobhair Abu

Quote from: Zapatista on July 25, 2008, 10:54:48 AM
Quote from: tram on July 25, 2008, 10:52:50 AM
Quote from: unforgiven on July 25, 2008, 10:49:06 AM
The amendment hasn't a hope in hell of being passed.  Northern Ireland MPs hold a important role in Westminster, especially when it comes to close votes between Labour and Tories (ie. recent bill on holding suspected terrorists without charge).  If the Northern Ireland MPs don't want amendment passed then I can't see the other major parties opposing them, especially Labour given there tentative grip on power at the minute.
I reckon you're right. There's not a hope in hell of Gordon Brown wanting to upset the DUP9 after they basically saved his arse over the 42-day detention bill.

I'd say that debt has already been paid.

Browns majority in the Commons has been cut again yesterday, and a couple of weeks ago. The support of the local MPs has never been more important.
Tbc....


ludermor

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on July 25, 2008, 10:15:09 AM
Sorry, J70 was giving his opinion (he doesn't need me to defend him, but on this I agree with what he's said), because you disagree with his opinion, you try to belittle it by saying he's lecturing! Take your own advice.

Im wasnt belittling at all and didnt mean it to come accross like that.
''If people don't want to have kids, then either use contraceptives and be a man and deal with the consequences should something fail, or else keep your bloody trousers on!''   sounds like lecturing to me.

Gaoth Dobhair Abu

Quote from: ludermor on July 25, 2008, 11:23:12 AM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on July 25, 2008, 10:15:09 AM
Sorry, J70 was giving his opinion (he doesn't need me to defend him, but on this I agree with what he's said), because you disagree with his opinion, you try to belittle it by saying he's lecturing! Take your own advice.

Im wasnt belittling at all and didnt mean it to come accross like that.
''If people don't want to have kids, then either use contraceptives and be a man and deal with the consequences should something fail, or else keep your bloody trousers on!''   sounds like lecturing to me.


Sounds more like common sense with a bit of maturity to me.

I personally think people should be made to take responsibility for their actions. Nanny state has destroyed this generation - sorry away off on a rant on a different direction, for another thread.
Tbc....

Down Gael


Quote from: ludermor on July 25, 2008, 12:29:46 AM
Downgael?
IS the morning after pill murder?

Yes, its no different than abortion.


Quote from: stephenite on July 25, 2008, 12:30:29 AM
Down Gael - When is a foetus a baby?

For me, life begins at conception. Call it a group of cells if you wish, but you were once that very same group of cells.

Maguire01

I haven't been at my computer for a while, so here's some of my replies/comments...

Quote from: Yes I Would on July 24, 2008, 10:41:51 PM
The No men are running away with it!!
Spoke far too soon.

Quote from: Yes I Would on July 24, 2008, 11:02:01 PM
It i believe would only add to a further lowering of morals and ethics within society. I believe no abortion act serves the greater good.
I think teenage and unfit parents are a primary cause of lowering moral standards. Surely that's an argument for abortion.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 24, 2008, 11:17:13 PM
Why is a female opinion so relevant?  Why is there opinion worth more than men's?
Why is female opinion so relevant? Are you being serious? I never said their opinion was worth more, but if you don't understand the relevance of their opinion, you clearly don't understand the topic under debate.

Quote from: Pangurban on July 25, 2008, 01:39:15 AM
Im disgusted at the licence given to the pro abortion lobby too describe themselves as pro-choice. Why are they never challenged on this. We are all pro choice,the issue is at what point the choice should be made, pre or post conception.
You're clearly not pro-choice. 'Pro-choice' relates to freedom of choice at all times, not within your parameters.

Quote from: unforgiven on July 25, 2008, 10:49:06 AM
The amendment hasn't a hope in hell of being passed.  Northern Ireland MPs hold a important role in Westminster, especially when it comes to close votes between Labour and Tories (ie. recent bill on holding suspected terrorists without charge).  If the Northern Ireland MPs don't want amendment passed then I can't see the other major parties opposing them, especially Labour given there tentative grip on power at the minute.
It's interesting that the DUP 7 UUP don't want anything to do with the rest of the UK on this one! They think NI should stand alone. That's not a very Unionist position.
Wouldn't it also be interesting if this was passed by a vote in the commons with a majority of 5 or less? That would be Sinn Féin's abstentionism policy in action. Any thoughts on that one for any republicans who have voted 'No' in the poll on this thread?

J70

Quote from: ludermor on July 25, 2008, 09:03:48 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 25, 2008, 05:00:06 AM
You think its ok for abortion to be used as a form of birth control?
You don't see a difference between preventing fertilization (and thus the beginning of a new life) by blocking sperm/ova from passing into the uterus and killing an embryo or a foetus?
If people don't want to have kids, then either use contraceptives and be a man and deal with the consequences should something fail, or else keep your bloody trousers on!

Thaks for the lecture J70.
Why is it so difficult for some people to accept that others have different opinions?

Call it what you want. And since when has expressing an opinion signaled intolerance for other people's opinions? If you have an issue with something specific I said, then state your case, don't complain that I'm intolerant.

J70

Quote from: stephenite on July 25, 2008, 05:47:18 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 25, 2008, 05:00:06 AM
If people don't want to have kids, then either use contraceptives and be a man and deal with the consequences should something fail, or else keep your bloody trousers on!

I'd agree with some of that that - I am pro choice in circumstances where conception has occured where it shouldn't otherwise have, in the case of sexual abuse etc. I have no real personal experience on this issue in that it has never happened to me but I also don't believe I have the right to preach to someone else about what to do or what decision to make without having a full understanding of their personal circumstances.

I also feel that Luder has a bit of point.

To those that are anti-abortion on the grounds that all life is sacred, is contraception therefore not also an abomination? Do those who think that, what I would consider to be a clump of cells, believe that the consituents that make up those cells  (ie) sperm and egg, also scared? Where is the line between what they believe to be sacred and not.

My own opinion is that if you consider a foetus in early stage to be sacred then it's hypocritical to use contraception, withdraw method or even masturbate. If you're that bloody high minded on the sanctity of human life it should be all encompassing and not the bits that you like or are palatable to your own morals.

Not sure I want to go down this particular road with you again, but I enjoy a bit of mental gymnastics, so I might have a go at it over the weekend! Or maybe not.

ludermor

Quote from: J70 on July 25, 2008, 02:07:39 PM
Call it what you want. And since when has expressing an opinion signaled intolerance for other people's opinions? If you have an issue with something specific I said, then state your case, don't complain that I'm intolerant.

Im not complaining at all, you have a different opinion than me and i accept and respect that.