Clerical abuse!

Started by D4S, May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

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We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

Declan

QuoteIf you are saying there are as many (percentage wise) paedophile accountants and lawyers as priest, that's just plain wrong, and miles wrong.

Didn't explain my thoughts clearly - I don't think celibacy has anything to do with child abuse and I don't think it is the reason why religious orders attracted a higher proportion of abusers than anywhere else. Re the percentages I thought I read somewhere that the number of clerics who were chlid abusers were not significantly greater a percentage than other professions - In other words out of every 100 cases it wasn't like 25 were religious and only 2 were teachers or lawyers or accountants etc. I maybe wrong on that but I'll try and root out the research articles I read before.   

I think there is a whole thesis involved in why they were "attracted" to the religious life and one is the solitary nature of the job, power over kids etc. Not too sure If I picked you up wrong I don't think you should link homosexuality and paedophilia so directly as you did
QuotePlus if you were homosexual and also a paedophile, priesthood would be high on  your agenda for a job.
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SLIGONIAN

#61
At the end of day, In my whole life experience I never encountered ANY PROOF that God exists. Zero, even in the darkest nights no sign. And yet we are to believe blindly based on few visions here and there and happy are those who believe but have not seen. I dont believe everything the catholic church says, i think that shows a serious lack of cop on. There are good Priests out there of course, i served under a Fr Healy for 4 yrs and he was a great man, so you cant pigeon hole them all.

It pisses me off Id like to thank God for this that and the other on the oscar poduim or whatever, really but it was you who did it not God, wasnt it you who did it. Where is God with all the suffering? He never intervenes does He, never never, ever, only 2000 yrs ago with Jesus and Moses why then? and not now? Reality says to me you really only have yourself to rely and your prayers are futile.

What happened in these places was beyond anything, really, it so sad and disgusting, from all angles, I really hope the priests face it at mass this weekend and give there feeling  on it. My heart goes out those that were the innocent victims. Just hope this isnt happening today and will never happen again. The amount of abuse of power in Ireland is astonishing when you stand back, the govt, the guards, the priests etc... although the first 2 prob not as bad as the priests nevertheless a poisoness trend.

For everyones information this was on all the Arab, bbc world, italian, French etc.. channels last night as there main news item.
"hard work will always beat talent if talent doesn't work"

johnneycool

Quote from: stew on May 20, 2009, 05:24:26 PM

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.



Then its time these good men and women had the convictions to stand up and be counted, give evidence against their colleagues who've let the institution of the catholic church down not to mention the terrible crimes they allowed their colleagues to get away with.

Maguire01

Quote from: hardstation on May 20, 2009, 11:46:24 PM
QuoteDo you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?
What in under f**k is this supposed to mean?
I have to agree. The 'greater good' comment is disgraceful. There is no greater good - there's right and wrong and it's that simple.

Main Street

#64
Quote from: D4S on May 20, 2009, 05:15:59 PM
Donagh I'm referring to the regular parishioner + parents of children who were abused in that statement.  Although I know todays report is largely on the institutions.
Before that, you had written  "people of Ireland stood by and trusted these manipulatorsnot knowing what was happening"

I don't have any bone to pick with your post but if you don't mind I'll make a few comments.
These forms of sexual abuse,  the nature of it, are a very complex picture, both from people who effect and those who are affected.
I only want to address the    "what parents knew" bit.

It's very hard to measure up what people knew was happening against their ability to deny it to themselves.
Personally, this is the one issue that took me a long time to understand as best I could, come to terms with it and get away from blame.
It would require about 50 chapters to explain properly.

Both the children and parents were abused, in different ways. As we know, abusers are the most devious.
Parents were abused, their trust and their ability/ parental guardianships were abused.
Abuse does not just affect one individual but the entire family dynamics are damaged to different degrees for decades, consciously and unconsciously.

Personally, no abuser ever got far with me as a kid, I don't know how, I just had an antenna for those sorts of things, but other family members were abused.
In my case, there was a holy trinity, a lay teacher, a Christian brother and a travelling salesman, who did their level best.
The teacher became a part of a very high profile prosecution where he eventually pleaded guilty.  
Members of our family were directly involved as witnesses.
My Mother was totally supportive of the witnesses involved the instant it became known to her.
In one discussion I had with my Mother, I was attempting to point out (while not actually saying it) that it was a bigger crime that an abused kid feared telling his parents because they wouldn't believe him and probably get a whack. I said, rather than face not being believed by one's own parent, a kid would shut up. That, to a kid/teenager,  trust from one's parents is a major one. My Mother did not get this. For the first time I told her about the distant family member the (Christian Brother) who tried to abuse me. She simply did not take it on board,  not exactly not believing me, but just changed the subject. I impressed upon her that I was not making this up, can she at least acknowledge what I have just said and discuss it. Again she gave a similar response. So I said, there is a perfect example of not being believed, that I had no trauma from the attempted abuse but the fact that my own mother did not believe me in this matter gave me a pain.
There was a social environment where all this abuse could prosper. Part of that environment was a stupendous denial of evidence and even if it was offered by one's own children, it was not accepted as being real. To my mind, some people knew the extent and were complicit, but I object to the general use of the term "people knew" and I object to you claiming that "parents knew". Many had not even the consciousness to know.



longrunsthefox

Is a lot to read all the messages but those male and female paedophiles must have thought they died and gone to heaven having these buildings with all the children locked up and no-one to account to. The reports on the radio this morning were heartbreaking and hopefully if there is a God the fires of hell will burn these evil b*****rds for eternity.   

D4S

I have to say Main Street, luckily I have not had the first hand experience you are talking about, I come from a different generation so perhaps I'm not knowledgeable enough to discuss the topic in any depth without possibly offending certain people, but I hope I haven't offended you.  It doesn't however make me feel any less disgusted or horrified when you hear of the stories from individuals and to think there are 10s of thousands of stories like that.

I like longrunsthefox listened to the radio this morning and it was gutwrenching and very emotional.  I listened to 1 lady of 65 totally unable to compose herself on stephen nolan, at the physical + UNBELIEVABLE emotional abuse she had suffered at being told she was worthless, ugly, an illegitamite bastard growing up for 16 years in an institution.  She grew up and had a family and still feels worthless and is massively emotionally scarred yet.  Another man on Gerry Ryan spoke of the abuse he endured, his marriage is now broke up and he never even brought himself to tell his wife such was his shame.
The secret of success in life is for a man to be ready for his opportunity when it comes.

The Iceman

Ireland and in fact the entire Catholic World was a completely different place Pre-Vatican II. Outside of Ireland your Catholic experience was very similar in that families had weekly mass attendance, devotions, family prayer and a reliance on the clergy to lay out all the rules to get to heaven. Life was good, or so it seemed.  
In Ireland this reliance on clergy extended from what I understand beyond just religious matters.  The Clergy had a power that very few challenged.
Things changed around the world and in Ireland post Vatican II but the clergy up until recently held onto that stigma of power and ultimate respect.  This allowed those few offenders that existed within the church to continue to prey on their victims under the guise of the collar or habit.
It is a very sad reality and a lot of people stood by and let it happen.  Blame could be diluted and we can all go back and forth as much as we want but ultimately the Church needs to take responsibility here for the actions of its clergy.  Nothing else will satisfy the majority and nothing less will help towards healing a huge wound which remains open.

I wonder if this happened though would people be satisfied?  Would it be enough?




I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight

Jim_Murphy_74

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 12:03:19 AM
Jim, the papacy isn't the Pope so you can't say that any Pope was responsible. 

The Church hide behind their rules, their rules make the Vatican and hence the Pope directly responsible.  The Church cannot have it's cake and eat it.  Either they accept the laws of the land or if they are above the laws they accept the responsibility.  The Pope is the head-honcho so I can't accept that the Pope and papacy are not equivalent here.

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 12:03:19 AM
What I would say the greater good wasn't just the image of the church but the good work that the Church does.  Don't forget thiOnces was only a very small minority of people who engaged in such behaviour.

I'm not sure those that were abused due to the Church's inaction would agree.  Also if the Pope and the Church claim they didn't know about the problem on one hand, they can't claim that they know if was a minority on the other.

Once again having their cake and eating it.

longrunsthefox

Quote from: The Iceman on May 21, 2009, 03:05:18 PM
Ireland and in fact the entire Catholic World was a completely different place Pre-Vatican II. Outside of Ireland your Catholic experience was very similar in that families had weekly mass attendance, devotions, family prayer and a reliance on the clergy to lay out all the rules to get to heaven. Life was good, or so it seemed. 
In Ireland this reliance on clergy extended from what I understand beyond just religious matters.  The Clergy had a power that very few challenged.
Things changed around the world and in Ireland post Vatican II but the clergy up until recently held onto that stigma of power and ultimate respect.  This allowed those few offenders that existed within the church to continue to prey on their victims under the guise of the collar or habit.
It is a very sad reality and a lot of people stood by and let it happen.  Blame could be diluted and we can all go back and forth as much as we want but ultimately the Church needs to take responsibility here for the actions of its clergy.  Nothing else will satisfy the majority and nothing less will help towards healing a huge wound which remains open.

I wonder if this happened though would people be satisfied?  Would it be enough?



What might be a start would be all the Catholic clergy paedos and sadists still alive and those who covered them up still alive be brought before the criminal courts like the old Nazi War criminals. The ones who are dead named and those people abused compensated out of the church's coffers.   

Maguire01

Quote from: The Iceman on May 21, 2009, 03:05:18 PM
Ireland and in fact the entire Catholic World was a completely different place Pre-Vatican II.
But did this report not cover a 40 or 60 year period up to the 80s?

Quote from: The Iceman on May 21, 2009, 03:05:18 PM
This allowed those few offenders that existed within the church to continue to prey on their victims under the guise of the collar or habit.
Come on Iceman, a few offenders would not be "endemic".

The Iceman

Quote from: Maguire01 on May 21, 2009, 04:15:48 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 21, 2009, 03:05:18 PM
Ireland and in fact the entire Catholic World was a completely different place Pre-Vatican II.
But did this report not cover a 40 or 60 year period up to the 80s?

Quote from: The Iceman on May 21, 2009, 03:05:18 PM
This allowed those few offenders that existed within the church to continue to prey on their victims under the guise of the collar or habit.
Come on Iceman, a few offenders would not be "endemic".
I don't understand your question on the years prior to Vatican II Maguire if you want to elaborate?

Looking at the bigger picture in comparison to those members of the clergy who did not participate in forms of abuse the ratio is quite vast therefore I think I am justified in labeling the offenders as "few".
I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight

ludermor

If the abuse was 'endemic' and you have a aportotion some blame to those who knew about it but done nothing or turned a blind eye then i would not think you are justified.

The Iceman

Quote from: ludermor on May 21, 2009, 06:04:23 PM
If the abuse was 'endemic' and you have a aportotion some blame to those who knew about it but done nothing or turned a blind eye then i would not think you are justified.
Based on that argument then can I blame society also?  I was trying to keep this to blaming the Church here ludermor.
I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight

Maguire01

Quote from: The Iceman on May 21, 2009, 05:54:02 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on May 21, 2009, 04:15:48 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 21, 2009, 03:05:18 PM
Ireland and in fact the entire Catholic World was a completely different place Pre-Vatican II.
But did this report not cover a 40 or 60 year period up to the 80s?

Quote from: The Iceman on May 21, 2009, 03:05:18 PM
This allowed those few offenders that existed within the church to continue to prey on their victims under the guise of the collar or habit.
Come on Iceman, a few offenders would not be "endemic".
I don't understand your question on the years prior to Vatican II Maguire if you want to elaborate?

Looking at the bigger picture in comparison to those members of the clergy who did not participate in forms of abuse the ratio is quite vast therefore I think I am justified in labeling the offenders as "few".
In relation to Vatican II:
I thought you were implying that all of these wrongdoings were pre-Vatican II. When you said: "the Catholic World was a completely different place", I read this as implying that the abuse that went on was pre-Vatican II and that Vatican II sorted things out. Maybe i picked you up wrong?

I can't agree with your second point. I can't reconcile the idea of "a few" with the term "endemic". And no one seems to be arguing with the report's use of the term. Synonyms of 'endemic' include: 'widespread', 'common', 'rife', 'prevalent'.... not 'few'.