Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

[ardmhachaabu]

FoSB, I accept the GFA wasn't exhaustive but to be fair about it, it could never have covered the bigger issues.  It will take 50 years before they appear on any table and even at that, they are likely to be fudged again even then

I know what you are saying about global Capitalism too and in many ways, that's how capitalism as an economic system works.  There will always be peaks and troughs.   I would be the first to say it's not the most equitable system and that ideally, we could look for somethng else to counter it succesfully and also bring us through a smooth transition but reality bites.  I can't see how anything else could work, I think capitalism is engrained in the world today and that most societies in the world are geared around it.  I am not sure if anything else could ever overtake it globally at this stage in the game

Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha 

Never let it be forgotten either! 

[Hardy]

Sorry, magickingdom, I don't understand any of that. You seem to be angry with me. I don't know why. If you have a problem with something I said or if you want me to clarify any point I made, let me know what it is and I'll do what I can.

Nally Stand, you're being a bit melodramatic about the potential awful consequences of a visit by the queen of the UK, should it ever happen. Who would be bowing to her? Why would anyone in this republic do that? Who would be waving union jacks? Why would anyone in this republic do that? For one thing, I'm pretty sure no politician in this republic would be so politically naive as to provide such a photo opportunity.

If it's ordinary people bowing or waving you're worried about, don't be fretting. I don't think it would happen. But, even if it did, what business of yours or mine would it be? It's a free country and if that was the worst consequence of a visit by the British head of state, I'm sure we'd all get over it in no time.

By the way, our president has visited the queen of the UK. Do you disapprove? (For the record, she didn't bow and no union jack waving took place).

Finally, if you have the time, what is your threshold of tolerance on official contacts, links and meetings between representatives of this country and the UK (our partners in the EU)? Where do you draw the line?

[Nally Stand]

It may not have been a republic in 1916 when half of Dublin flew the union jack in response to the Rising - the flags still flew. You haven't answered my question as to how a tax payer funded reception for her would be more self-demeaning than not inviting her? And your the first Irish "republican" ive heard say Ireland is a free country. Not yet hardy. Maybe when it is I would b happier for a british monarch to walk around dublin. As for contacts with the Uk, if it is of tangible benefit, i'm all for it.

[Nally Stand]

P.S. As for your photo op remark. If they aren't foolish enough to provide such an opportunity and be seen as ass licking, how come they still happily fill news column inches to talk about how big an honour it would be to have this lovely little woman visit us?

[Hardy]

You haven't answered my question as to how a tax payer funded reception for her would be more self-demeaning than not inviting her?

Sorry, I didn't know you meant it as a serious question. Don't you see that we would be
demeaning ourselves if we were perceived to be so cringing and cowering that our policy on relations with fellow member states of the EU can be dictated by our terror of a monarch. We are a sovereign republic. We've hosted heads of state from all corners of the world, looked them in the eye and treated them with official courtesy and hospitality. Likewise the queen of the UK has visited all sorts of countries. Do you want us to be the only one in the world to fear we'd be unable  to cope with a visit from that little woman? Are you seriously proposing this as an element of our foreign policy?

And your the first Irish "republican" ive heard say Ireland is a free country. Not yet hardy.

Jesus! What's happened? Have we been enslaved again behind our backs? In what way are you unfree? What freedoms are you denied and who is denying them? We can't have that and we'll sort it out pretty quick if you let us know.

P.S. As for your photo op remark. If they aren't foolish enough to provide such an opportunity and be seen as ass licking, how come they still happily fill news column inches to talk about how big an honour it would be to have this lovely little woman visit us?

Who said that?

[Nally Stand]

It's possible to answer without being continually smug and sarcastic. And i never said we couldn't cope i said it wouldn't b appropriate. You're an awful man for putting words in my mouth. As for freedom i don't regard a partitioned Ireland as a free Ireland. Something I will never apologise for. As for what freedoms how about the freedom to have my taxes paid to the Irish Government, freedom to vote for Irish presidents, freedom from the fear of british gov and her majestys forces collusion should the..

[Nally Stand]

..Peace process fall apart. I could go on. And comparing her to other head of states to have visited is a bit pointless. None of ever claimed to reign over Irish people. And they also are not part of a sectarian charter. Last year a canadian girl was forced to change from her Catholic faith so she could marry into the extended british royal family.  As for who spoke about the honour it would be try bertie& dermot ahern (whom the "republican party" call their foreign minister in dealings with the 6 counties)

[Zapatista]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it myself and I think it's funny that people would work themselves into a lather over a little ould one in a funny hat. I think it would be self-demeaning to appear to be cowering before the British monarchy by saying we don't want her coming here. We've had plenty of other monarchs visiting here and the sky didn't fall in. Treat her the same as any other head of state.

Otherwise, where do you stop? Brown can't come here for EU summits? Stop meetings of the British-Irish council? See how ludicrous it starts to get when people start getting caniptions at the sight of an ugly little granny.

Now I see why this thread has reached six pages. You are debating two different things.

References to little old granny's and funny hats are at odds references to unapologetic Morarchs and leaders of a colonial power. One of which many Irish people are victims.

It's like Hardy saying it's only a little red button what harm can it possible do? While FOS is saying it's a nuclear warhead and pressing the button will release it only for hardy to follow up by pointing out that he doesn't lose sleep of little red buttons.

[lynchbhoy]

And Lynchbhoy, if she has done nothing wrong, does this mean her honouring of the individual bloody sunday soldiers was right?

come off it - it's not as if she hand picks those out to receive awards !!
It's all done for her ... Shed 'honour'  Fred west if they paraded him up in front of her for a knighthood!
We waste taxpayers money on hosting bigger Idiots than the queen so she's not unique there and
I don't recall her doing much against us !!
She's a politically powerless figurehead ! Fecks sake man !!

[Zapatista]

She's a politically powerless figurehead ! Fecks sake man !!

Maybe as a person but as a figure i'm not so sure. It wasn't that long ago the Iconic figure of the queen was used to bring the north the the verge of civil war with marches across the north in particular the Garvaghey Rd.

If she wants to come to Ireland with a camera and a street map she's more than welcome. I wouldn't protest against a visit from her in office but I wouldn't agree with it.

[Nally Stand]

Well lynchbhoy do you reckon the families of those killed feel the same? She remains the figurehead and symbol of a government which has caused so much pain in this country which has left many people still feeling a very raw hurt today.

[lynchbhoy]

Well lynchbhoy do you reckon the families of those killed feel the same? She remains the figurehead and symbol of a government which has caused so much pain in this country which has left many people still feeling a very raw hurt today.

I cant speak for those other families but I couldnt see why they wouldnt.
Obv you disagree so I suspect I am still in the minority - but the queen while a figurehead, was not the cause of any problems. She would hardly have been aware of what was going on outside her palace gates among the commoners !!

I would say to you (and Zap) that in this day and age, an ever increasing amount of people are against a monarchy in England - that a lot of people ridicule and laugh at the royal family. The queen is becomming a bit of a joke - with recessionary times etc and I dont believe its a huge coincidence that the royal family have been out of the papers for most of the downturn !
So having her lauded by loyalists/unionists would be somewhat amusing given her perception/standing in England/Scotland and wales !

As we are on the road to re-unification, people must get over what was once part and parcel of the landscape.
The queen is no longer a rallying figure for the unionist/loyalists- but a near comic token figurehead, the sash is an anthem of a dying statelet with a nice tune - nothing more.

We no longer have to worry about our way of life under the apartheid type regieme any more - lets try to move on as we will have to all integrate in the not too distant future under the one Irish flag!

[Trevor Hill]

Well lynchbhoy do you reckon the families of those killed feel the same? She remains the figurehead and symbol of a government which has caused so much pain in this country which has left many people still feeling a very raw hurt today.

Thankfully most of us have been able to leave the past where it belongs. I doubt you would remember much of the troubles, you dont seem that old.

[Nally Stand]

Firstly, Trevor if you don't agree with my arguments, how about discussing them rather than patronisingly accusing me of being to young to know what i'm talking about? I remember far too much of the troubles and my own family and neighbours have been affected directly in ways i won't be going into on this board. And Lynchbhoy, can't you accept that whether you think it is understandable or not, many people have valid reasons to feel uncomfortable at such a visit?

[Trevor Hill]

Not meant to be patronising, but you come across as a 14 year old with a chip on his shoulder. Maybe if you could actually come up with a reason against a visit by the Queen, instead of just complaining about the past. The troubles had an effect on us all, but thankfully most of us aren't stuck in a timewarp. We often accuse our protestant neighbours of living in the late seventeenth century, that 1690 to you, when in fact some of our nationalist friends still think its 1916/1969 (delete as appropriate). I am sure the Queen is all to aware of what went on in this country, much of it in her name, but thankfully she is able to put the past behind her. If she wants to come to Ireland on a visit then Ireland should be mature enough to welcome her and remember she is your head of state, wether you like it or not.
If like many in this country you chose to live in the past then you should remember people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.