El Classico - Breffni Park, Saturday 18th

[trileacman]

It's quite bizarre the reaction to Banty losing one match and say Stephen Kenny losing 4 (or is it 5?). A lot of prejudice colours the opinions of many managers and suppose by extension teams also.

[Main Street]

Whether Banty was the right man or not, today's second half tactics, where Monaghan basically tried to see out the game from minute one, were an abomination. Granted, Cavan sat back in the first period of the second half, which was daft too, but Monaghan never tried to kick on at all. You'd wonder if modern managements are overthinking football sometimes.

An abomination for sure and in the context  of being 7 points up after a good first half where the forwards went full on for goal 4 or 5 times before eventually scoring one, you'd have thought that the way to win the game was nailed on obvious.  Banty moved Hanratty to the right for some wierd reason and nullified his influence when he was making hay on the left. And then decided on tactics to pass it along the Monaghan full back line supposedly to draw out the Cavan players. The only surprise was that it took Cavan so long to cop on to that they had Monaghan beat if they went for it. I can only think that McManus was so frustrated with the plan that he missed every chance he took in the last 1/4 .

[sid waddell]

It's easy to say now Banty was the wrong choice after failing miserably at the first hurdle but apparantly it was the senior players who made the persuasive arguments at the time. O'Rourke's last year was dreadful, even more so than this year, perhaps he just escaped in time.

Easy to say now but it was even being said when he was being considered.

Surely it would be a backward step for Monaghan to appoint Banty?
He has proven with a number of counties that he's not great.

But you don't count. There were persuasive forces in the county who thought Banty would be the man to pick up the pieces after that awful last year with O'Rourke. Meath were a basket case and Banty had some form with the Monaghan minors.  I was doubtful just like many other distant observers but there was a decent looking backroom. Now it's easy to say he was the wrong choice, time and place.

Banty was grand for Monaghan 12 or 13 years ago

He's old school, he got them organised and motivated the hell out of them and that's grand for getting to a certain level but tactically he couldn't cut it against the big boys - that was shown once and for all in the 2010 Ulster final when what was by then a fading Tyrone team completely dismantled Monaghan tactically

Malachy O'Rourke was on a different level altogether - he gets and understands the modern game and modern players

Banty had already passed his sell by date 10 years ago so I don't know why people thought he would cut it now with what is by now very much a fading Monaghan team

O'Rourke  blew hot and cold. His last year was worse than Banty at his worst.  Another year we lost out to Longford who were deserving winners in Clones.
And always losing out to Tyrone in Croke Park,  3-0 with just one close game which might have gone to a replay. Twice  he used the same brainless tactics, pass across midfield ad nauseum, then eventually run into contact, get ambushed, raped and dispossesed.
O'Rourke's last season was so bad that even a tactically spartan Banty looked a bit decent as a replacement

Two Ulster titles, five quarter-final appearances and an All-Ireland semi-final appearance in seven seasons represents a very good return for O'Rourke

Monaghan moved to another level under him

2018 was the climax for that team, they were in position to reach the final but couldn't close it out

O'Rourke probably stayed a year too long but even the best coaches tend to do that

I think Monaghan were going to be on a downward slope anyway, but whatever the answer was, going back to Banty wasn't it

Banty was with Wexford for a year or two and in truth that's around his level

I fear for Monaghan that they'll shortly be looking back on the O'Rourke era as a golden but distant one

[sid waddell]

It's quite bizarre the reaction to Banty losing one match and say Stephen Kenny losing 4 (or is it 5?). A lot of prejudice colours the opinions of many managers and suppose by extension teams also.

Prejudice as regards managers is usually based on well founded doubt, it's an arena where those who haven't got it are ruthlessly weeded out

Andy Farrell with the Ireland rugby team is another who falls into this category and it will be very difficult for him to have success I think

It's up to the manager to prove the doubters wrong

[bannside]

Sid I 100% agree with you. Malachy O Rourke had Monaghan performing above themselves for a few seasons that Monaghan supporters started getting grand ideas about themselves at a legitimate top 4 or 6. I think his era will be remembered with fondness in the test of time. He was winning titles with one class act who would make a Dublin team. The Monaghan men on here who would even think about casting anything other than praise on MOR need their heads examined.

[bannside]

Back to Banty. For the managerial experts only. Youre 7 points up at HT, at home to a Div 3 team. Youre going out in the 2nd half against the wind. What advice do you give to your team? 

This will be interesting.

[restorepride]

The lack of "game management" in the second half was brutal however it is not the manager who shot the wides or missed the goal chances and the flip side is that Monaghan should have been out of sight at halftime.   Players must shoulder the responsibility for on the field decisions they make.

[Captain Obvious]

Back to Banty. For the managerial experts only. Youre 7 points up at HT, at home to a Div 3 team. Youre going out in the 2nd half against the wind. What advice do you give to your team? 

This will be interesting.

A Division 2 team that got relegated to Division 3.

[Itchy]

Back to Banty. For the managerial experts only. Youre 7 points up at HT, at home to a Div 3 team. Youre going out in the 2nd half against the wind. What advice do you give to your team? 

This will be interesting.

A Division 2 team that got relegated to Division 3.

Last yrs ulster finalists, team that beat you by 4 points the previous championship and a your local rival that there's is rarely more than a kick of the ball between you and them in any match.

[Itchy]

Back to Banty. For the managerial experts only. Youre 7 points up at HT, at home to a Div 3 team. Youre going out in the 2nd half against the wind. What advice do you give to your team? 

This will be interesting.

A Division 2 team that got relegated to Division 3.

Last yrs ulster finalists, team that beat you by 4 points the previous championship and a your local rival that there's is rarely more than a kick of the ball between you and them in any match.

Although, he was right in calling you a Division 3 team. It is where you belong.

Aye maybe, but we never spent a day in Div4 in our history not like ye useless wasters.

[thewobbler]

A neutral's perspective on Monaghan today.

Within 10 minutes of throw-in it was obvious that Monaghan were neither playing their opponents nor conditions, but determined to play a pre-ordained system of counterattacking. They had a 25mph breeze and played as if they were facing it.

It didn't really register on me at the time, but in hindsight, were they preparing themselves for "how they must play" to beat the "better teams"?

Then a couple of mins of good play at the end of the half got them out of jail a little.

When the game moved into the second half, it became apparent that they felt they could win the game in second gear. Kill the ball, kill time, pick up a couple of scores, and job done.

The problem with this approach is that they were playing against a 5-point wind. Cavan might not be Dublin, but they've a handful of lads for who a 25mph wind means a 45m kick becomes like a normal 30m kick i.e. upwards on 85% of going over. So unless Monaghan popped in a goal or two, it was always going to be a tight finish. Yet Monaghan showed next to no interest in scoring goals, even when the opportunity came clapping. And even more bizarrely again, they replaced full forwards when their midfield was neither willing nor able to provide them with service.

Extra time first period was chess like. Cavan decided not to push the pedal, but drag their opponents out. That was risky enough, but let's be honest, only for a defender coming on as a forward, who has enough experience to not give one damn what his manager says, it would have played out perfectly.

Then in the second half of extra time, Monaghan kind of got what they deserved. Cavan set them up then hit the knockout blow. They could only done this because Monaghan did not force the fight earlier.

At the end of this game, my summary was that Monaghan underperformed as they were over-coached into trying to play a "smart" game, and distracted from playing their opponent.

It was kind of refreshing that the outstanding players on show were McKiernan and Corrigan. Neither of whom would appear to give a damn about managerial instructions.

Was Banty completely to blame? No, of course not. Half of his team did not show up, and that's on them. But at the same time, would Monaghan have fared better or worse today with a glove puppet in control? Possibly better.

[Angelo]

The problem with Banty is that he was a very uninspiring appointment, yesterday's man following hot on the heels of a very successful spell for Monaghan.

He had been with a Div 4 side last year and didn't do anything of great significance with them, in fact his record since his first stint in the Monaghan job over a decade ago was very chequered.

O'Rourke had led Monaghan to Div 1 from Div 3 in successive seasons and kept them there for 4/5 seasons, he had brought them their first Ulster title since the 80s, then a second one. He had them regularly at the business end in Croke Park and brought them to an AI SF where they were very close. You look at O'Rourke's record with Monaghan over a sustained period of time and it's superb. Monaghan are a very proud footballing county but they have one of the smallest picks in the country and were mixing with all the big guns.

The main men for O'Rourke in his spell there were more or less all there during Banty's first spell - McManus, Hughes, Corey, Mone, Clerkin, Lennon etc. O'Rourke brought them on another level, you could make a case for Banty saying that the likes of McManus were not in their prime when he was in charge but you could also make the case that O'Rourke had guys like Finlay, Lennon and Tommy Freeman in the twilight of their careers.

Things came to a natural conclusion for O'Rourke but I think if Monaghan wanted to or want to try and keep themselves at the level they were at under the majority of O'Rourke's tenure they need more than someone like Banty can give them.

I think Monaghan have a few problems similar to what Tyrone had in the past few years, they're bringing through some nice forwards but they're too small. Guys like McCarthy and Garland were excellent underage players but they lack the physicality for senior football. As a result they are still too reliant on McManus. Monaghan lack size, they were cleaned out in the middle today. I remember Kieran Hughes as a wrecking ball full forward back in 2013 when Monaghan won Ulster - the demise of Clerkin and Lennon meant he was shifted out to midfield where he's looked a fairly average player since. If they had the ability to leave him inside with McManus in those years, it could have changed everything.

I think Monaghan need a new man at the helm with fresh ideas, Banty for me is just an inferior version of O'Rourke.

[trileacman]

It's quite bizarre the reaction to Banty losing one match and say Stephen Kenny losing 4 (or is it 5?). A lot of prejudice colours the opinions of many managers and suppose by extension teams also.

I don't have much interest in Kenny & his situation.
I don't think it's a case that Banty is being hauled over the coals for losing a match though. The issue is that people are wondering how he managed to inveigle his way back into this gig, in that he is punching well above his weight. That hasn't just come about because Monaghan lost today. It started when it emerged that he was even being considered. Of course, the chat about it naturally dies away but today's defeat throws the spotlight on it again.

Who were the alternatives?

[redzone]

A neutral's perspective on Monaghan today.

Within 10 minutes of throw-in it was obvious that Monaghan were neither playing their opponents nor conditions, but determined to play a pre-ordained system of counterattacking. They had a 25mph breeze and played as if they were facing it.

It didn't really register on me at the time, but in hindsight, were they preparing themselves for "how they must play" to beat the "better teams"?

Then a couple of mins of good play at the end of the half got them out of jail a little.

When the game moved into the second half, it became apparent that they felt they could win the game in second gear. Kill the ball, kill time, pick up a couple of scores, and job done.

The problem with this approach is that they were playing against a 5-point wind. Cavan might not be Dublin, but they've a handful of lads for who a 25mph wind means a 45m kick becomes like a normal 30m kick i.e. upwards on 85% of going over. So unless Monaghan popped in a goal or two, it was always going to be a tight finish. Yet Monaghan showed next to no interest in scoring goals, even when the opportunity came clapping. And even more bizarrely again, they replaced full forwards when their midfield was neither willing nor able to provide them with service.

Extra time first period was chess like. Cavan decided not to push the pedal, but drag their opponents out. That was risky enough, but let's be honest, only for a defender coming on as a forward, who has enough experience to not give one damn what his manager says, it would have played out perfectly.

Then in the second half of extra time, Monaghan kind of got what they deserved. Cavan set them up then hit the knockout blow. They could only done this because Monaghan did not force the fight earlier.

At the end of this game, my summary was that Monaghan underperformed as they were over-coached into trying to play a "smart" game, and distracted from playing their opponent.

It was kind of refreshing that the outstanding players on show were McKiernan and Corrigan. Neither of whom would appear to give a damn about managerial instructions.

Was Banty completely to blame? No, of course not. Half of his team did not show up, and that's on them. But at the same time, would Monaghan have fared better or worse today with a glove puppet in control? Possibly better.

Thats a great summary.
Monaghan had 2 pts in the second half, both fisted efforts and hadn't a kicked attempt at a point in 30 mins.

[giveballaghback]

Congrats Cavan, well done, some achievement after being so unluckely relegated.
Target now Ulster final and who knows after that.