Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 59906 times)

haranguerer

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1140 on: May 04, 2017, 10:11:28 AM »
why is it an economic basket case?

N.I. requires a subvention of around 10bn per annum to keep all services running.  The majority of heavy industry is gone. Most jobs introduced in the last 10 years are in the service sector.  Agriculture is dependent on subsidy from EU for majority of farmers who have small family holdings which produce a barely sufficient income.  Infrastructure, especially when compared to RoI or UK is poor, arterial roads are not dulled or motorways, railways are insufficient, public transport is barely adequate.  There are no natural resources exploited to the point where they produce a significant income, e.g. oil, gas. renewable energies.  Inward investment has not brought in wealth creating or manufacturing industry and has been wasted on a service sector giving millions to law firms, call centres, etc.  The tax base is insufficient to sustain the region.  Housing stock is adequate with no plan to improve it or the associated infrastructure.  The main export is our young people who are educated to third level and then go abroad where their skills can be appreciated.

I could go on.  Thank God for the UK government's willingness to continue to pump billions into a small rural region which will never provide a return on its investment.  so, many of us are living off the Queen's shilling and working in the public sector which still makes up well over 60% of the economic activity.

Doesn't sound like partition has done it any favours, does it?

haranguerer

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1141 on: May 04, 2017, 10:22:42 AM »

I could go on.  Thank God for the UK government's willingness to continue to pump billions into a small rural region which will never provide a return on its investment.

This bit in particular pisses me off. Such shite. I'm sure before independence there were many in the south who had a similar attitude (there certainly wasn't much affection for the rebels in 1916) - no confidence in themselves or their fellow countrymen that they could make a success of governing themselves, rather stand cap in hand for the 'benevolent invaders' who were doing them a favour by governing them. Thank god that changed. You should be embarrassed.


Franko

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1142 on: May 04, 2017, 10:41:50 AM »

I could go on.  Thank God for the UK government's willingness to continue to pump billions into a small rural region which will never provide a return on its investment.

This bit in particular pisses me off. Such shite. I'm sure before independence there were many in the south who had a similar attitude (there certainly wasn't much affection for the rebels in 1916) - no confidence in themselves or their fellow countrymen that they could make a success of governing themselves, rather stand cap in hand for the 'benevolent invaders' who were doing them a favour by governing them. Thank god that changed. You should be embarrassed.

+1

seafoid

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Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1144 on: May 04, 2017, 11:10:54 AM »
Brilliant health care system in the south .... no?

Eh? Probably worse than Americas TBF, at least here if you've got insurance and dont mind forking out $$ you'll get well looked after.
In the South its just crap for everyone.
When did you use the 26 Co health care system either public or private (via health insurance)?

What would that tell you sure?

I watch the news and drive past your dreary infirmerary thankful that her Majesty and Uncle Sam have always afforded me acceptable medical treatment at 1st world standards

I suppose you'll be trying to say next your education system is up to scratch when an afternoon on here is all evidence you need to display the inferior level of education in the Free State.

Joe ... you speak with such certainty... Tell us about your experiences with the Healthcare and educational systems in the Free State.
He's just another WUM spouting ill informed balderdash.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 11:55:18 AM by Rossfan »
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Avondhu star

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1145 on: May 04, 2017, 11:36:14 AM »
Brilliant health care system in the south .... no?

Eh? Probably worse than Americas TBF, at least here if you've got insurance and dont mind forking out $$ you'll get well looked after.
In the South its just crap for everyone.
When did you use the 26 Co health care system either public or private (via health insurance)?

What would that tell you sure?

I watch the news and drive past your dreary infirmerary thankful that her Majesty and Uncle Sam have always afforded me acceptable medical treatment at 1st world standards

I suppose you'll be trying to say next your education system is up to scratch when an afternoon on here is all evidence you need to display the inferior level of education in the Free State.

Joe ... you speak with such certainty... Tell us about your experiences with the Healthcare and educational systems in the Free State.

He may have some experience of the mental health side of the Health system in the Republic but education wise very little ( maybe in the remedial reading field)
Warning. Don't try this at home unless in the company of a responsible adult

StGallsGAA

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1146 on: May 05, 2017, 01:14:42 AM »
why is it an economic basket case?

-collapse of "Protestant" industries such as shipbuilding
- 1969-1995 and the destruction of a lot of infrastructure plus the emergence of a generation with poor business/management skills
- the world moved on
-Protestant brain drain
- UK economy trina cheile


Didn't realised Gregory Campbell had left??

I think you misunderstand the meaning of brain drain, it means brainy people leaving, not Gregory Campbell.

That'll be a woosh then? 🤔😏😉

Owen Brannigan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1147 on: May 05, 2017, 09:40:39 AM »

I could go on.  Thank God for the UK government's willingness to continue to pump billions into a small rural region which will never provide a return on its investment.

This bit in particular pisses me off. Such shite. I'm sure before independence there were many in the south who had a similar attitude (there certainly wasn't much affection for the rebels in 1916) - no confidence in themselves or their fellow countrymen that they could make a success of governing themselves, rather stand cap in hand for the 'benevolent invaders' who were doing them a favour by governing them. Thank god that changed. You should be embarrassed.

Not embarrassed in the slightest.  I live in the real world.  There is nothing in the RoI that can compare with the government provided services in NI that we now find to be not at the levels we would want.  All healthcare is free, you can pay if you want but no one pays 40 each time to visit their GP or for hospital care provided for all illness.  Social care is available to all who need it, yes it could be better but it is miles ahead of RoI provision.  The NHS owns and runs all of our hospitals for the people regardless of ability to pay and religious orders are not able to dictate the services that are provided. Nursery, primary and secondary education in NI is free to all, fee paying schools are virtually negligible and deal with mostly foreign children being boarded by their parent. Class sizes are smaller than in RoI and schools are better resourced with a much better schools' estate.  The wealthy have to send their children to the same schools as the less well off unlike the RoI where segregation by ability to pay school fees separates society.  No child is turned away from a primary school because his/her parents didn't bring the child for baptism in the Catholic Church.  The elderly are looked after with a good state pension, social care available regardless of ability to pay but with those with assets being asked to pay towards their care and the health care provided to them is free and readily available.  While housing could be improved, we have sufficient stock for the people and the HE and housing associations continue to build housing for rent which is both of a high standard and affordable. For those unable to afford the rents the social care system will provide assistance, not always enough but it is there. In the public sector, our workers have been forced to take pay freezes and lower than inflation pay increases but none of them have been forced into taking significant pay cuts to pay for the billions of euros that were taken from the banks by fellow citizens and now have to be paid back by ordinary citizens as enforced by the Euro bankers who effectively run the RoI economy as it pays back its debts for the bailout.

None of this level of provision in NI could be afforded by the RoI as it cannot be provided to people living within its jurisdiction.  Yes we live in the soft North but you have to recognise it is provided by the UK government on the basis that much more is paid into NI than can be harvested in terms of tax income.  Does this make me feel less Irish than any other person on the island? No.  As I said at the outset, I live in the real world, I didn't nor did anyone of my generation or those ahead of me create this situation of dependence on the UK government and until there is a better offer from the RoI, I do not see any need to move to a UI.  Will Brexit change this?  Who knows at this stage.  Do the people in the RoI jurisdiction want to take on the full cost of running NI?  I would believe they won't when they realise the true cost.  Is it worth generations living in austerity in a UI so that you believe that you are governing yourself?  The reality is that we in the six counties will not be governing ourselves in a UI, we have a small proportion of the population and around half of them will have no allegiance to any of the governing parties.  It is so easy to have views that an UI will answer all our problems when it is not on the horizon within the lifetime of people of voting age in NI.

haranguerer

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1148 on: May 05, 2017, 10:46:48 AM »
A lot of that is rubbish, and in any event, irrelevant. The argument isn't who can provide for us, its how to best get us to provide for ourselves.

The republic has managed it, whatever you think about their policies in certain areas, while separating NI from the republic has clearly held it back. A UI would be democratic, you could vote on issues that are important to you, and if enough other people agree, they are likely to become policy.

You say you see yourself as Irish, but go on to say the reality is 'we' wouldn't be governing 'ourselves' in a united Ireland. Who would be governing, if not Irish people? Re half the NI population having no allegiance to any of the governing parties, are you really so devoid of foresight as to not be able to see that there surely would be a party they would have allegiance to? And that we may find that with unionism/nationalism taking a back seat, their policies may appeal to some nationwide?

A UI would be a step into the unknown, and there may be many changes we don't like. But to say that NI is better off as part of the union ignores all the evidence of the last century.

Milltown Row2

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1149 on: May 05, 2017, 10:50:49 AM »
A lot of that is rubbish, and in any event, irrelevant. The argument isn't who can provide for us, its how to best get us to provide for ourselves.

The republic has managed it, whatever you think about their policies in certain areas, while separating NI from the republic has clearly held it back. A UI would be democratic, you could vote on issues that are important to you, and if enough other people agree, they are likely to become policy.

You say you see yourself as Irish, but go on to say the reality is 'we' wouldn't be governing 'ourselves' in a united Ireland. Who would be governing, if not Irish people? Re half the NI population having no allegiance to any of the governing parties, are you really so devoid of foresight as to not be able to see that there surely would be a party they would have allegiance to? And that we may find that with unionism/nationalism taking a back seat, their policies may appeal to some nationwide?

A UI would be a step into the unknown, and there may be many changes we don't like. But to say that NI is better off as part of the union ignores all the evidence of the last century.

Its a bit like brexit, we wouldnt really know what it would be like until it happens as its never happened before, but it doesnt stop people telling everyone it will be stite or brilliant 
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1150 on: May 05, 2017, 10:57:40 AM »
A lot of that is rubbish, and in any event, irrelevant. The argument isn't who can provide for us, its how to best get us to provide for ourselves.

The republic has managed it, whatever you think about their policies in certain areas, while separating NI from the republic has clearly held it back. A UI would be democratic, you could vote on issues that are important to you, and if enough other people agree, they are likely to become policy.

You say you see yourself as Irish, but go on to say the reality is 'we' wouldn't be governing 'ourselves' in a united Ireland. Who would be governing, if not Irish people? Re half the NI population having no allegiance to any of the governing parties, are you really so devoid of foresight as to not be able to see that there surely would be a party they would have allegiance to? And that we may find that with unionism/nationalism taking a back seat, their policies may appeal to some nationwide?

A UI would be a step into the unknown, and there may be many changes we don't like. But to say that NI is better off as part of the union ignores all the evidence of the last century.

Its a bit like brexit, we wouldnt really know what it would be like until it happens as its never happened before, but it doesnt stop people telling everyone it will be stite or brilliant
Do Northern politicians say "the reality of the situation" much ?
They would be obliged to say it in a UI.

There are serious questions about parity of esteem for radio jingles in a UI . Some of the 26 county earworms are atrocious.

 
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Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1151 on: May 05, 2017, 11:04:14 AM »
Going by Owen's long post above I'm led to believe we have to pay school and Uni fees, don't get any State pensions, have no Health system, can't go to school unless we're Catholic or C of I.
Also that Catholic schools in the 6 Cos take any pupil.

I'm off to Fermanagh in the morning...... but will have to buy a tractor to travel on the roads there.

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armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1152 on: May 05, 2017, 11:11:52 AM »
This thread tends to go around in circles. From time to time you get a detailed discussion of what about this or what about that. In my opinion, this is largely pointless. There was a time when the ROI could not afford services and that time has had some effect on the structure of services today, in many cases those limitations are recognised and being addressed. Now it can afford comparable services and in general, in a democratic society, it will adopt a service provision that Irish people want. The needs of people in Fermanagh are not much different from those in Monaghan.

The issue is a simple one, the services in NI are not paid for by people of NI. More seriously, nobody seems to have any belief that this will ever change or even that it should ever change. Nationalists have moved from being third class citizens to being second class citizens and seem happy to look at the glass half full rather than the remaining short measure. The statement about " that you believe that you are governing yourself" in the previous post was one of the most craven that I have seen.

But this is not going to get better, NI may well lose more of its economy and much of its overinflated public services, while the ROI becomes significantly more prosperous than the UK and more noticeably so. It is not a case of wait a while and the problem will go away, it won't. Perhaps there isn't a solution, but some effort to find one is needed and unfortunately, NI "nationalist" parties haven't even tried, perhaps reflecting the apathy of their voters.

In my opinion, there exists an opportunity in the current situation to link NI more closely with the ROI economy, without fiddling with flegs and the like for the present. If this makes NI more like the ROI economically then the need for a subsidy greatly reduces and the debate can be held on other grounds.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 11:37:32 AM by armaghniac »
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seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1153 on: May 05, 2017, 11:15:16 AM »
I think the big question is what it would take for NI to achieve its economic potential. Cos it is nowhere near that today.
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yellowcard

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1154 on: May 05, 2017, 11:27:34 AM »

I could go on.  Thank God for the UK government's willingness to continue to pump billions into a small rural region which will never provide a return on its investment.

This bit in particular pisses me off. Such shite. I'm sure before independence there were many in the south who had a similar attitude (there certainly wasn't much affection for the rebels in 1916) - no confidence in themselves or their fellow countrymen that they could make a success of governing themselves, rather stand cap in hand for the 'benevolent invaders' who were doing them a favour by governing them. Thank god that changed. You should be embarrassed.

Not embarrassed in the slightest.  I live in the real world.  There is nothing in the RoI that can compare with the government provided services in NI that we now find to be not at the levels we would want.  All healthcare is free, you can pay if you want but no one pays 40 each time to visit their GP or for hospital care provided for all illness.  Social care is available to all who need it, yes it could be better but it is miles ahead of RoI provision.  The NHS owns and runs all of our hospitals for the people regardless of ability to pay and religious orders are not able to dictate the services that are provided. Nursery, primary and secondary education in NI is free to all, fee paying schools are virtually negligible and deal with mostly foreign children being boarded by their parent. Class sizes are smaller than in RoI and schools are better resourced with a much better schools' estate.  The wealthy have to send their children to the same schools as the less well off unlike the RoI where segregation by ability to pay school fees separates society.  No child is turned away from a primary school because his/her parents didn't bring the child for baptism in the Catholic Church.  The elderly are looked after with a good state pension, social care available regardless of ability to pay but with those with assets being asked to pay towards their care and the health care provided to them is free and readily available.  While housing could be improved, we have sufficient stock for the people and the HE and housing associations continue to build housing for rent which is both of a high standard and affordable. For those unable to afford the rents the social care system will provide assistance, not always enough but it is there. In the public sector, our workers have been forced to take pay freezes and lower than inflation pay increases but none of them have been forced into taking significant pay cuts to pay for the billions of euros that were taken from the banks by fellow citizens and now have to be paid back by ordinary citizens as enforced by the Euro bankers who effectively run the RoI economy as it pays back its debts for the bailout.

None of this level of provision in NI could be afforded by the RoI as it cannot be provided to people living within its jurisdiction.  Yes we live in the soft North but you have to recognise it is provided by the UK government on the basis that much more is paid into NI than can be harvested in terms of tax income.  Does this make me feel less Irish than any other person on the island? No.  As I said at the outset, I live in the real world, I didn't nor did anyone of my generation or those ahead of me create this situation of dependence on the UK government and until there is a better offer from the RoI, I do not see any need to move to a UI.  Will Brexit change this?  Who knows at this stage.  Do the people in the RoI jurisdiction want to take on the full cost of running NI?  I would believe they won't when they realise the true cost.  Is it worth generations living in austerity in a UI so that you believe that you are governing yourself?  The reality is that we in the six counties will not be governing ourselves in a UI, we have a small proportion of the population and around half of them will have no allegiance to any of the governing parties.  It is so easy to have views that an UI will answer all our problems when it is not on the horizon within the lifetime of people of voting age in NI.

Just have to point out some inaccuracies here. The state pension in NI is 122 as opposed to 230 in ROI. Other forms of welfare are considerably higher as well if you want to go down that route.

In terms of public sector pay, rates are still considerably higher in ROI than in NI, the Luas drivers went on strike over only getting 55k a year ffs. Wages in the private sector are also much higher in ROI than in NI, I'd hazard a guess probably somewhere in the region of 20-25%. Hence the reason a considerably greater number of people travel from NI to work in ROI rather than vice versa. You go on about public services being less costly, which is true in the case of healthcare but much less so in terms of education. The education system in the south is pretty decent, you only have to look at the strength of a young educated workforce coming out of college. You point out all of the negatives but fail to look at the bigger picture.

Yes, there would be an initial cost in unification which may take a generation to rectify but I believe in the longer term it would be much better for the country as a whole and particularly the north. The north is becoming more of a basket case year on year and Brexit will only serve to increase the divide in prosperity between north and south.     
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 11:29:33 AM by yellowcard »