Religion.

Started by cash4gold, March 03, 2010, 03:07:15 PM

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cash4gold

Quote from: Zapatista on March 03, 2010, 05:15:34 PM
Anyone who believes most wars are fought over reliigon are more a part of the problem than they are the solution.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 03, 2010, 05:02:33 PM
The catholic church has pedalled the notion that it is "errant priests/bishops" that are the problem and people who want to believe that, in the direct opposition to all the evidence, will believe it. That is what is wrong and all you have to do is read the Murphy report and you'll see clearly the cover ups that went on right all the way to the top. The institution of the catholic church covered up the rape of children and continues to act like it was something small. Even the papal nuncio wouldn't cooperate with a commission in the country to which he is an ambassador. Anyone willing to accept the  "couple of errant Priests" line is the core of people I spoke about above.

As did the state as did many influential Irish people and organisations at the time.

This didn't only go right to the top of the Church this was a part of Irish life through church, state, home and school life. However, the church and the state were best placed to stop it and didn't.

Is your list of wars limited to the 20th/21st Century? ::)  Quick google ...

1 Christianity
1.1 Crusades
1.2 French Wars of Religion
1.3 Thirty Years War
1.4 Taiping Rebellion
2 Islam
2.1 Second Sudanese Civil War
3 Hinduism
3.1 Indian Rebellion of 1857
4 Taoism/Daoism
4.1 Yellow Scarves Rebellion
4.2 Five Pecks of Rice Rebellion
5 Buddhism
5.1 White Lotus Rebellion
5.2 Sri Lankan Civil War
6 Judaism
6.1 Jewish-Roman Wars
7 Sikhism
7.1 Sikh uprising (1982-91)
8 Saxon Wars


mylestheslasher

Quote from: Bogball XV on March 03, 2010, 06:09:15 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 03, 2010, 05:22:45 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on March 03, 2010, 05:15:34 PM
Anyone who believes most wars are fought over reliigon are more a part of the problem than they are the solution.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 03, 2010, 05:02:33 PM
The catholic church has pedalled the notion that it is "errant priests/bishops" that are the problem and people who want to believe that, in the direct opposition to all the evidence, will believe it. That is what is wrong and all you have to do is read the Murphy report and you'll see clearly the cover ups that went on right all the way to the top. The institution of the catholic church covered up the rape of children and continues to act like it was something small. Even the papal nuncio wouldn't cooperate with a commission in the country to which he is an ambassador. Anyone willing to accept the  "couple of errant Priests" line is the core of people I spoke about above.

As did the state as did many influential Irish people and organisations at the time.

This didn't only go right to the top of the Church this was a part of Irish life through church, state, home and school life. However, the church and the state were best placed to stop it and didn't.

Do you have any evidence that the notion of widespread child abuse within the catholic church was reported to say TD's or An Taoiseach? Granted individual Gardai did not act, mainly as they saw the bishop as a higher authority than the state. Where the state failed is they allowed a situation to exist where the catholic church wielded more power than they did.
the state was at least and bad and imo worse than the church, all the reports allude to the fact that the state knew what was going on in the various church run institutions, but the state seemed to think that it was good enough for working class children.

Well thats not how the victims group see it and I would agree with them. While the state has to take a proportion of the blame the primary blame must be with the institution that inflicted the abuse, allowed the abusers to exist within their organisation, protected abusers and covered up all attempts to find out what went on. I would also ask to what level the state knew what was going. A couple of 'holy joe' cops keeping stum to keep the bishop happy is one thing but are you saying that at a high level within the state they knew what went on and did nothing?

ardmhachaabu

WRT the original posters question, I am a practising Catholic and I think religions are a force for good in the world
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

Main Street

If Armagh had my soul, I'd need a regular good cleansing too.

cash4gold

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 03, 2010, 07:28:12 PM
WRT the original posters question, I am a practising Catholic and I think religions are a force for good in the world

In what way?  Surely they merely cause mistrust of other religions, they instil values they perceive to be correct, it's now ok (i.e. you won't burn in hell NOT to observe holy days in the catholic church, it is now ok to eat meat on a Friday - such silly ideas, now people who commit suicide are allowed to have a proper burial, that's nice of them)  The catholic religion like all religions is fraught with inconsistencies, why does someone have to have a religion to believe in God, if going to Mass and listening to a nice story written by people at least 2 generations after Jesus was alive, and then edited many times is comforting to you then fair play, but if there is a higher power I'd rather converse alone to him/her and let my life be judged by my actions and not my parish dues! 

ardmhachaabu

Quote from: cash4gold on March 03, 2010, 07:45:29 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 03, 2010, 07:28:12 PM
WRT the original posters question, I am a practising Catholic and I think religions are a force for good in the world

In what way?  Surely they merely cause mistrust of other religions, they instil values they perceive to be correct, it's now ok (i.e. you won't burn in hell NOT to observe holy days in the catholic church, it is now ok to eat meat on a Friday - such silly ideas, now people who commit suicide are allowed to have a proper burial, that's nice of them)  The catholic religion like all religions is fraught with inconsistencies, why does someone have to have a religion to believe in God, if going to Mass and listening to a nice story written by people at least 2 generations after Jesus was alive, and then edited many times is comforting to you then fair play, but if there is a higher power I'd rather converse alone to him/her and let my life be judged by my actions and not my parish dues!
Are you changing the question now?  If you are, I am done, I have answered your original question by saying I think religions are a force for good and I think it's obvious enough how. 
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

Zapatista

Quote from: cash4gold on March 03, 2010, 06:53:02 PM
Is your list of wars limited to the 20th/21st Century? ::)  Quick google ...


Eh?

QuoteWell thats not how the victims group see it and I would agree with them. While the state has to take a proportion of the blame the primary blame must be with the institution that inflicted the abuse, allowed the abusers to exist within their organisation, protected abusers and covered up all attempts to find out what went on. I would also ask to what level the state knew what was going. A couple of 'holy joe' cops keeping stum to keep the bishop happy is one thing but are you saying that at a high level within the state they knew what went on and did nothing?

I agree completely that the church are primary to blame and should accept that.

I don't discount responibility of others in this though too. There are members of the churh and a members of the state that failed miserab and sometimes intetentionally in this. We can't turn around after all this and say this state are not responible.

Just like we can't turnaround in 30 years time when the planet is destroyed and say to our kids we are innocent of global warming. I know it's happening but I'm doing nothing about it. Others are trying to do something about it but are largley being ignored.

Pangurban

CashFor Gold, when you reach a proper understanding of what constitutes a Church, then you will be qualified to express an opinion, until then you would be better advised to display a little humility and not be making a holy show of your ignorance

Zapatista

Quote from: T Fearon on March 03, 2010, 03:39:25 PM

The problems are invariably caused by fundamentalists and remember we are all human, no one's perfect etc

What's wrong with fundamentalism? I don't fear fundamentalist Mormons or Jehovah Witness or the crazy but harmless 7th day avangelist from work. I wouldn't have much peace if I ran eeverytime I seen him with a rucksack.

The problem is abuse of religon.

Zapatista

#24
Quote from: cash4gold on March 03, 2010, 06:53:02 PM

Is your list of wars limited to the 20th/21st Century? ::)  Quick google ...

1 Christianity
1.1 Crusades
1.2 French Wars of Religion
1.3 Thirty Years War
1.4 Taiping Rebellion
2 Islam
2.1 Second Sudanese Civil War
3 Hinduism
3.1 Indian Rebellion of 1857
4 Taoism/Daoism
4.1 Yellow Scarves Rebellion
4.2 Five Pecks of Rice Rebellion
5 Buddhism
5.1 White Lotus Rebellion
5.2 Sri Lankan Civil War
6 Judaism
6.1 Jewish-Roman Wars
7 Sikhism
7.1 Sikh uprising (1982-91)
8 Saxon Wars

I see now. You came up with some names. I don't know them wars.

The main case for war has never changed. An the two major tools of war are still effective today namely, religon and patriotism/nationalism.

What you're saying is like saying the internet is the main cause of porn. Google that and prove me wrong.

Bogball XV

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 03, 2010, 06:55:25 PMI would also ask to what level the state knew what was going. A couple of 'holy joe' cops keeping stum to keep the bishop happy is one thing but are you saying that at a high level within the state they knew what went on and did nothing?
i'm not saying anything, I don't have the time to research anything to back up what I wrote, but, yes, I thought it was generally accepted that everyone had a fair idea of what went on, they may not have known the extent of the sexual abuse, but they certainly knew about the physical abuse, sure wasn't it common practice in manys a good home too?  Times were different and it's easy for us to look back and judge, zap has a great analogy with the global warming tbh.
As for wars being started because of religion, maybe, but mostly wars are started by people's lust for power, they may use tools such as religion and patriotism to whip the people into a frenzy and support the war, but there's normally an ulterior motive somewhere.  It's like lazy people saying the north's conflicts were (are) the catholics and prods fighting each other.

IolarCoisCuain

Leonard Cohen has often said that you should never attack organised religion because it's all that gets some people through the night. This is a transcription of an interview he did with RTÉ twelve years ago: http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/rte.html

QuoteI don't want ever to set myself up as an enemy of organised religion because those churches, those mosque, those synagogues, they give comfort and solace to millions and millions of people, and real comfort and real solace, so I don't think it serves anything or anybody to become an enemy of organised religion. Organised religion on the inside is very tender to its members. On the outside it tends to be antagonistic to the other organised religions. They tend on the inside to act like family, on the outside they tend to act like states, and they're continually putting themselves in an abrasive positions in regard to one another. That, I think, is deeply sinful.

I like Lenny.

mylestheslasher

Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on March 03, 2010, 09:13:33 PM
Leonard Cohen has often said that you should never attack organised religion because it's all that gets some people through the night. This is a transcription of an interview he did with RTÉ twelve years ago: http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/rte.html

QuoteI don't want ever to set myself up as an enemy of organised religion because those churches, those mosque, those synagogues, they give comfort and solace to millions and millions of people, and real comfort and real solace, so I don't think it serves anything or anybody to become an enemy of organised religion. Organised religion on the inside is very tender to its members. On the outside it tends to be antagonistic to the other organised religions. They tend on the inside to act like family, on the outside they tend to act like states, and they're continually putting themselves in an abrasive positions in regard to one another. That, I think, is deeply sinful.

I like Lenny.

I suppose that is a fair point but what I am driving at is why is it such a help to people when surely dealing directly with God would be a greater help. Personally, I could never belong to any organisation be it a church or the boy scouts etc that would harbour paedos or hinder investigations into them. For me that is totally unacceptable no matter what "good" is on the other side of the scale.

cash4gold

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 03, 2010, 07:49:48 PM
Quote from: cash4gold on March 03, 2010, 07:45:29 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 03, 2010, 07:28:12 PM
WRT the original posters question, I am a practising Catholic and I think religions are a force for good in the world

In what way?  Surely they merely cause mistrust of other religions, they instil values they perceive to be correct, it's now ok (i.e. you won't burn in hell NOT to observe holy days in the catholic church, it is now ok to eat meat on a Friday - such silly ideas, now people who commit suicide are allowed to have a proper burial, that's nice of them)  The catholic religion like all religions is fraught with inconsistencies, why does someone have to have a religion to believe in God, if going to Mass and listening to a nice story written by people at least 2 generations after Jesus was alive, and then edited many times is comforting to you then fair play, but if there is a higher power I'd rather converse alone to him/her and let my life be judged by my actions and not my parish dues!
Are you changing the question now?  If you are, I am done, I have answered your original question by saying I think religions are a force for good and I think it's obvious enough how.

How is it obvious - you have yet to offer any explanation?

cash4gold

Quote from: Zapatista on March 03, 2010, 08:11:07 PM
Quote from: cash4gold on March 03, 2010, 06:53:02 PM

Is your list of wars limited to the 20th/21st Century? ::)  Quick google ...

1 Christianity
1.1 Crusades
1.2 French Wars of Religion
1.3 Thirty Years War
1.4 Taiping Rebellion
2 Islam
2.1 Second Sudanese Civil War
3 Hinduism
3.1 Indian Rebellion of 1857
4 Taoism/Daoism
4.1 Yellow Scarves Rebellion
4.2 Five Pecks of Rice Rebellion
5 Buddhism
5.1 White Lotus Rebellion
5.2 Sri Lankan Civil War
6 Judaism
6.1 Jewish-Roman Wars
7 Sikhism
7.1 Sikh uprising (1982-91)
8 Saxon Wars

I see now. You came up with some names. I don't know them wars.

The main case for war has never changed. An the two major tools of war are still effective today namely, religon and patriotism/nationalism.

What you're saying is like saying the internet is the main cause of porn. Google that and prove me wrong.

What wars do you know - Iraq, WW1, WW11?  :o